i stumbled upon this article today, and it disturbed me a good deal.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58596

i'm not a religious person, but i sure as hell do believe in freedom of religion, and this sickening display of "political correctness" makes me weep for the future of mankind. Didn't we learn anything from the holocaust?

wow that is distrubing. that's sick actually. this is what revalation was talking about, and people still don't want to here it. as bad as this seems phantom i think there is a good chance this will happen in the future banning everything religious. this actually hits close to home for me.....because i live in a HUD housing project! i have a cross hanging in my window right now, i always keep it there.

i'm sorry to hear that! i hope they dont force you to take it down or anything. i give you my best wishes in this most opressed holiday season!

Don't get me wrong, I am an atheist. But I also believe a ban on religion is wrong. Religion is someone's beliefs, culture, heritage. It shouldn't be taken away because a few people find it "offensive" or not "politically correct". Just because someone doesn't believe in something, doesn't mean no one else can.

yes! that's exactly how i feel. at this rate, we will have no traditions left, and we'll be stuck with commercial characters created by corporations to sell products.

"come now, my children. gather round the tree so we may celebrate the birth of rudolf the reindeer"

i mean, come on. people have the right to express their beliefs all they want. it's not going to hurt anybody to have an angel on a tree, or a little ornament with a bible verse on it.

Sickened? Disturbed? Drama queens. I'd call it "petty". Petty to enforce such silly rules. And what's with the 29,000 emails in one morning? Some people have too much time on their hands.

PS. What sickens and disturbs me is non-religious folk who partake in Christmas. Hypocritical much? "Hmm, I'll complain about that old lady putting an angel on her Christmas tree and then I'll go back to wrapping gifts for the kids"

There are times when i hear things like this that i am tempted to go start my own country on Antarctica. I will deal with the cold if i can leave crap like this behind.

christmas is not only a christian holiday. it is a blend of multiple religious traditions all tied together in one time frame. so, i could call you hipocritical for celebrating christmas when you aren't actually celtic. christmas has become, nowadays, something for everyone to partake in and enjoy. it is a time of brotherhood and happiness. that's what really matters. not what religion the person is.

Sorry - as a firm disbeliever in anything spiritual I find it difficult to include myself in something called Christmas.

Indeed, whilst real crimes such as muder, kidnapping, and rape go about, they decide to annoy old ladies with their political correctness.

The real religious values are seen less and less in Christmas. Now it's more about spending family time. I only say if you are not religious ad you "celebrate" Christmas, you shouldn't b!tch and moan about being offended by some angel Christmas ornament.

i'll have you know it's only called christmas because the church slapped that title onto it. It had other names before, such as Yule.

Isn't Yule something completely different nowadays? I researched it a few years back...it takes place a different time of year. Not sure, memory's kind of fuzzy.

yule is the original pagan celebration of the new year. christmastime. the christian church demonized pagan religions and placed their own religions right on top of theirs, so they would be lost to history. luckily, they didnt succeed completely.

That is just stupid. I am sorry but I don't believe in the religious part of Christmas, but I think it is a fin holiday for my child. America is supposedly about freedom of religion and such, and as a person who wants a secular state, I totally disagree with the banning of anything pertaining to ones beliefs that does not cause harm to anyone else. (Offenses omitted).

but dont you think your right to a secular christmas is just as viable as christians' right to a christian christmas?

It would appear that there has been a change of mind over the affair



Feds relent, angel ornament to be allowed
'Newsletter regarding decoration policies has been rescinded'
Posted: November 10, 2007

The United States has a history of loony litigation in this area.

For example, many cities and towns have common areas (such as the lawn outside town hall), where people would traditionally put manger scenes at Christmas time, often along with menorahs for Channukah.

Lately, a typical settlement is that the religious symbols of the season be "offset" by the presence of secular symbols as well (Santa Claus, his reindeer, Dr. Seuss' Grinch, perhaps a sign saying how many shopping days remain until Xmas...)

"Yule" references should be safe, but with the pagan, and so religious, connotation? Maybe not. Similar seasonal litigation has recently cropped up surrounding Hallowe'en, with its religious heritage.

OK, the feds have relented for now. It is never too early to get ready for next year:

So, the lady in the story needs a lawyer. I am sure that she can have a volunteer for the asking; this will be great publicity for the lucky attorney she selects.

She will acknowledge the government's demand, and counteroffer that for each angel, there will be, say, one of Santa's elves prominently displayed in the vicinity.

A deal is made, and the republic endures for another year.

Yeeeeseh, I am a christian and don't even celebrate christmas. haha.

And I'm not a christian but I celebrate Christmas !!

I love evrything about Christmas exept that it's too commercialized

Just think of it as Yule then

Anyway, personally I wouldn't care about religious symbols not being allowed, but it is undeniably a bit petty towards those who want to maintain the Christian tradition of celebrating Christmas.

There was something in UK a while back about Christmas not being the word to use but to use "Wintermas" instead. Personally, if they did bring in that where I live, I would stick a whacking great "Happy Christmas" sign in my window, because they could go spin

I understand that it wouldn't be possible for people to do that in those housing complexes though, lest they get chucked out for breaking their stupid rule

RANT TIME

This is what sickens me............looking to ban a culture that christians all over the world have been celebrating for hundreds and hundreds of years...christianity is the worlds BIGGEST religion known to man..this is a fact

So I may not like the christian faith..im never behind the back door in saying so...but I can't stand other people claiming how offencive Christmas is...

Atheists & people from other religions <---IMO iif anyone is complaining it has to be some of them....(I said SOME)

I always enjoed christmas..even though till this day have no idea why there is a christmas tree LOL....I love that time of year....look at my thread history...I have a thread on this very thing


But to take away someones culture is F***ED UP really is out of order...where does it end??

Over here the muslims are trying to say that christmas is offensive and Sanata is banned from malls...so where do the kids go to visit Santa?? come on its all part of their childhood memories...it what growing up is all about and these people are looking to BAN IT ALL....kids look forward to seeing santa..why take it from them...jesus christ its really out of order (pardon the french)

Winter fest??? BITE ME...if you come into a country..then you should respect the culture of that country NOT yap about it..and want it banned..but at the same time look for YOUR OWN cultures celebrations to be held...how cheeky is that?? I think you all should be allowed to celebrate whatever you like...so why ruin it for others???

Frankly I blame the government...it's their fault...they allow these people to complain...they allow them into the country and have rights <--fair enough but when they allow them into the country...they should set rules that states.....you can celebrate your own culture freely...but you cannot complain about OUR country's culture...if you dont like it tough...

Atheists - Well you CHOSE to be who you are and thats fine...but for the love of bagpuss is it so freaking hard to let that ONE holiday a year go by without yapping over it??
We listen to your complaints enough when you banter on about religion taught in schools...religious texts written on walls...on the dollar ect..fair enough...but christmas is only a once a year thing that makes the rest of the population HAPPY...must you take that away from them too???

Is that it....only want the country to do it all your way and to hell with the rest of the millions that live there??? BITE ME!!!!

my thoughts exactly! everyone, regardless of religious orientation, should be outraged at the opression christians are facing here, just because it might offend a few people! it's sick! sick sick sick!!!

No its not sick lol its SELFISH...very SELFISH of them...all they want is for everything to go THEIR WAY or no way...and by this they want to take away the one thing...the one time of year that brings people together....thats selfish...and wrong..and its high time the government put an end to it

Give the kids back their santa too...after all kids only hold that belief for a short time...so who does it harm??


EDIT - How do the government expect people to coexist...when they stand back and let this crap happen???

Yes I agree.

I remember when my own kids were small, to see them put a mince pie and a glass of milk by the fireplace was lovely As you say though, it doesn't last for long

I never gave my own parents that luxury though, at three when opening the presents, my dad informed me that Father Christmas had brought them. I remember looking at my dad, looking at the presents, looking back at my dad and laughing saying "no he didn't, you put them there" - I was a right old killjoy

ROFLCOPCARS ALL THE WAY HOME!!!! Christians facing oppression?

When you see the look on a childs face as they go to see Santa (apart from my becky umm she cried cuz Santa frightened her lol)...they look excited and it gives them HOPE...

What about the lil kids that act in the schools play about the birth of baby jesus??? heck as a kid i was in those plays too lol...but see that is fun and it makes kids look forward to those things...and then we have monsters greedy monsters looking to take that away

To christians who feel somehow "marginalized" by the removal of religoius themed holiday decor all I can say is B-O-O H-O-O, because in all reality they never once thought in all the last two thousand years that other people weren't all christian. They still don't think that. In the United States despite what religious fundamentalists would have you believe, its a melting pot. People of many faiths and no faith all have the right to belief what they will. Christians who insist on angels or baby jesus creche displays ON PUBLIC PROPERTY are in for fight plain and simple. If you want that up in front of a church no one can or will stop you. Try to put it on public property then yes you will be fought and you'll more than likely lose, depending on where in the US you are.

If I asked to have a Pagan Yule display put up on public property do you think that some christian wouldn't get his undies in a twist over it? You bet, because everyone who has beliefs deep down thinks theirs is IT. Its basically a religious pissing contest come every December, but in all reality the Christians started it. By believing that they had the hegemony over the holiday season to say it meant what they said it meant, they left open the door for others to say wait a minute, isn't Christmas really Candlemas, or Yule, not to mention now we have Kwanzaa and of course Hanukah? It's fine if in public spaces they covered all bets and put up stuff for everyone but the dominant (not by numbers but just by sheer pushiness) displays have tended toward the christian. That causes problems, because not everyone is christian. If christians would ever get this then maybe they'd stop feeling so "persecuted" and learn to play nice with others. Till then the fight continues...

Yes, my kids were in nativity plays too. When they were in pre-school, their playgroup had three and four year olds acting in these plays, it was smashing. I had forgotton all about it until you mentioned it lol.

I guess it really is up to people to stand up and be counted and absolutely refuse to be dictated to in a fashion that is draconian. What I do know is this, my own household will continue to have Christmas and I will continue to call it "Christmas" simply because I choose to.

Some people talk about the word Christmas being offensive to them. However, I consider it offensive to myself if I kowtow and call it another name, therefore I cannot do this and will carry on as I have been doing.

Having said all that, I fully understand some people don't like Christmas or anything it represents but as long as they don't try to restrict me I have absolutely no problem with that.

So because over 2000 years ago there was no christians and no christmas..that in todays modern world...this celebration is not meant to be made a big deal out of??? eh??


So we should all just stop and say - ack wellllllllll its not as if we can complain after all Jesus only came 2000 odd years ago...and people before that had no big celebrations ..so umm ok hey everyone lets just go along with the protesters and quit christmas...i mean who the heck needs culture right??? right??

Question...when was the USA discovered again??? shot in the dark here but wasnt it founded by columbus?? and didnt it happen in around the 1400's (1491/2) and found native americans there...so later America grew and grew and grew...that means America was built up long after Jesus was on the face of this planet.....and I believe christianity entered that country after that...so I think that all of those christian americans that have roots in the USA...that are christian..have a right to keep their christian holiday...its their culture after all

And I dont like christianity myself but who am I to rob billions of people of their culture ??/ all because BM here dont like christianity??? What about kids?? i believe they have a right..heck the poor lil mites dont know any better let them have their fun

BAH HUMBUG!!!!!!! LOL

Yeah, but these Christians are worshiping an evil baby-killing God, so shouldn't they be banned? Their "bible" condemns peoples actions all the time: homosexuality, infidelity, disrespect towards parents...you name it! Is it fair that people should have the worship of such an evil entity thrown in their face by the display of crosses, ringing of bells, and the phrase "Merry CHRISTmas? shouldn't we protect our children, as well as the children of other people who aren't as smart as us, from a belief that will cause them to feel guilt just because they have premarital sex, lie, cheat, steal...you know, all that normal stuff that people have a RIGHT to not be judged for. Face it, Christianity is DANGEROUS, and has caused war after war, and been the root cause of millions of deaths and untold cruelty, at the hands of man and even the very God these people worship! No way should such activity be allowed anywhere! I say BAN this evil, before your children start falling into the hands of these worshipers of a baby-killing deity!
After all, what are you expected to do, raise your own children within a belief system of your choosing? How can you do that with churches on every corner, bells ringing, songs about "Christ" all over the place...no way!

[color="#000000"][/color]Right on mate

And in case I forget A merry christmas to you


fullywired

There is only one religion on earth that contains as part of its holy scriptures the command to enslave and tax or kill all others that do not believe in their religion, and it is not Christianity.

This is now, this is today, and this is reality.

*taps fullywired on the shoulder*

Excuse me...umm I put up a good defense for christians and christmas TOO in fact lol I reminded darkmoon on who discovered America...cuz she bantered on about BOOHOO at the christians and how christians wernt always living in the USA..that over 2000 year ago..there were no christians...so my lil history of discovery came in bloody handy lol

so I put up a better defense for christmas than eeggy lol his defence was OK lol <--yes blowing her own trumpet lol

just winding you LOL

EEK! I'm reporting you to the mods for forcing your judeo-christian beliefs on me by wishing me a merry CHRISTmas! I may even sue UM for allowing this to go on un-checked! Don't push your belief in an evil make-believe deity on me! Baby killer!

Mercy!!! I am A poor man




fullywired

The thing that always boggles my sad little mind over this stuff is WHY and HOW people get offended at seeing a cross, or an angel, or a pentacle, or whatever.

Small plastic cross hanging on the wall. What can it possibly do to people? Sometimes, I think the non-believers put MUCH more power into the symbols than the believers do. It is amazing that something someone does not believe in gets them so upset.

hammer nail and head

Ok I think you missed the point of my post but to answer what you wrote, a lot of kids don't celebrate christmas as a religious holiday. Most see it as a free for all present grab. So how is taking the religion out of something that it seems it has already been taken out of hurting kids? Most kids I know do not have a birthday cake for Jesus (as a small minority of christians do). Kids these days associate christmas more with the coca cola santa claus image, rudolph the rednose reigndeer and frosty the snowman. The only ones complaining about NOT having nativities on public property are hard core fundamentalist christians. You think they would be happy if I asked to put up a Pagan display? See what I'm saying, they want inclusiveness only up and until it includes THEIR religion, but not anyone else's. Go any further and say plunk down a Yule log and a Green man, along side the baby Jesus and see how well those same christians take it.


As for christmas as we know, by the way, its not an old tradition in the sense that it has crystallized from many traditions down through the years. That familiar christmas that we've come to know, isn't even old christian ways, its more like from the turn of the last century and a smidge before. Now WINTER traditions go back a heck of a lot further than christian traditions, so if you want to get in a debate over cultural capital, then by far the christians are out done by those winter traditions. Just because "it was brought over with christians" doesn't make it ok to exclude or assume that its the only relevant belief during a holiday season. There were Jews who came over too who do not expect JUST a menorah to be displayed during the holidays. No one is saying don't celebrate your holiday, just don't assume everyone is celebrating the same thing you are and that there just might be other beliefs out there besides yours.

There has been a story similar in the UK about the government downgrading christmas, saying it wont be such a big thing and time of work will be optional, most disturbing! I mean i agree other religions big celebrations should be given the same standing but it just seems we are being pushed to get rid of religion, i thought we were a free country.

Of course not! Your pagan demon/gods would probably eat the baby Jesus, and toss his remains on the yule log!
*looks around for Silver Cougar*

I know, stupid isn't it.

If they don't like it, maybe they shouldn't look at it. Some people just have to try and control others though, they just can't help themselves, I guess they must be so bored with their own lives, they can't think of anything better to do.

Banning any personal beliefs or faiths is a very dangerous thing to do! And having any one group tell another what they can and can not believe or celebrate is disrespectful of rights and freedom period! And if we allow this kind of dictatorship we deserve to loose all our own personal rights and freedom! I may not believe in many religions but i am greatful that my neighbor can and does have the right to believe and worship as they choose or not! And all i ask is the same in return!

Exactly and when you think about it, it isn't much to ask is it, that someone can believe in what they wish without some do-gooder who thinks they know better coming along and dictating what you can and cannot think

YES YES YES!
And THAT is why I get so PISSED when people start these "God is Evil and eats babies" posts! They are VILIFYING and entire religion! One that, like it or not, has FORMED the western world as we know it!

So guess what people!!!!

The anti-god crew is JUST as r******ed as the Southboro whateverthehell they are baptists!! Because you are showing BLATANT intolerance, by VILIFYING a DEITY that you don't even BELIEVE IN! Does ANYONE else see how STUPID that looks from the outside!!??

EDITED TO SAY:
SOMEONE PLEASE QUOTE THIS! IT"S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING FOREVER!!!

It does when you say it like that. I mean, how can they vilify it when, to them, it doesn't even exist. They are either on a deliberate wind-up and are being malicious or they are scared stiff.

That's what I mean! I mean, if you're going to NOT believe, can you do it like SOME people do, without all the freakin vitriol and mocking disdain! (Feel free to jump in Leo, you tend to express disbelief without having to tell believers how stupid they are)!

I soooooooooo rarely see a believer, of any sort, tell anyone on here they are going to hell, blah blah blah, yet 90% of the posts from non-believers are nothing more than POORLY veiled attacks on the very CONCEPT of belief itself! It's self-defeating and insulting, and quite frankly looks down-right sad!

I think it's possible to discuss and debate without titling a thread "God Kills Babies! Believers are StoOpId! WTF! Over!

Isn't it possible to simply disagree and state it as a disagreement?
I don't believe in what the bible says because I can't reconcile what it says and what I see going on around me.
...because I can't reconcile what the bible says and what other equally valid religions teach.
...because the Catholic church is more a political entity than a spiritual one.
...because Orel Roberts never got hit by lightening.

See!?!? I didn't have to call ANYONE stupid, foolish, un-evolved, deluded, or ANYTHING insulting to make a valid point!

It's a valid argument, well I am not going to argue with you because I agree with you

In the odd posting of mine when an argument has ensued, I have sometimes written "we must just agree to disagree" - however, of course, that doesn't seem to satisfy some and they continue onwards and downwards, upwards and sideways trying to change my mind. The real facts of the matter are that it is good to see all sides and have all views, but it is when that "control" aspect comes into play that things get ugly

Usually it's not even about a disagreement in my experiences.

I just can't see the reason in banning a belief. It totally confounds me. It's just "OK" to bash on Christianity in general, as if a nativity scene will hurt someone!

Yet NO ONE dares say squat about public schools and public buildings installing foot baths in America for Muslims at tax-payer expense. It's OK to have a Kwanzaa festival at school, but sing We wish you a Merry Christmas? Hell NO! The ONLY expression allowed in regards to Christianity is disdain, or the lawyers will crawl all over you. Challenge head scarves and praying to Mecca at PUBLIC schools, and you're somehow violating someones civil rights. How the hell does that work?

Of all people ATHEISTS should see the absurdity in that! But no, they only see Christianity and the King James version of the bible as evil, despite the fact that MOST Christians are disgusted by Islams female circumcision of 8 year old girls with a sharp rock, the ritual abuse of women, the killing of Muslims who convert to any other religion by LAW. What the hell are these people thinking? Instead of hammering moderate Christians like petulant children rebelling against Mommy and Daddy, they SHOULD be dragging Islam out of the dark ages, kicking and screaming!

Yet they seem to be the greatest opponents of any form of Christianity, and the greatest protectors of religions whose idea of moderation is beheading infidels and not their entire families.

this is terrible.

This is like when there was talk of changing certain Nursery Rhymes becuase certain religions may find it offensive. Some people take things way to serious, and this is just taking it too far.

MERMAIDMAN!!!