Got an interesting question I came across in school:

Can we analyze the way everyone perceives the world with science? (H. Dooremalen)

What do you all think?
Blind people, deaf people, name it
but also conscience like the feeling you have over having done a good/bad deed.

Richie.

ok.. maybe I am crazy then :/
anyways ill just keep some life into this then:

Concience:
Emotions:
1: Nature: Instincts, Autonomic Nervous System
2: Free Will of CHOICE: Somatic Nervous System

Conscience

It is a strategy of the body to communicate to the mind through Emotions. The command center where YOU (have to) make YOUR choices.
1: Nature/Life(Selection, Indoctrination, whatever you can think of but affects you)
2: Free Choices(I decided to step left then right not first the left but right and i cedided to type that word wrong, but also very important ones throughout life)
3: Knowledge pool (feedback)

Behaviour (willingly or not) can be based on Emotional state.
The body and mind communicate through Emotions. But also between individuals or the outside world. Being in WAR. the body/outside world let's you know what's up. You should be scared. I love you hunny.

The body and mind communicate through Emotions and it affects your reasoning because of altered conscience. When the impact is extreme, emotions can be felt in your soul. Your window on the world where you operate your limbs through the Somatic Nervous System by using free will as an extension of the mind and make choices of your own. But there are also choices nature dictates on you, like some internal(visceral/cortical/etc) behaviour in the ANS. Or diseases. Everything that is, atleast, not derived from your free will of choice.

Conscience is ones own perspective on being in a monent in time. I cannot understand others and people disagree with eachother on many a thing. For me to understand them, I would have to be them. Everyone has their own beliefs about reality.

So when Nature/Life (also including others because they belong to nature/Life) contributed the stimuli to change your emotional state it will affect your conscience. Like when your father dies. If you are in love you would behave and express behavioural symptoms that come with the emotion. Daytime, when to go to bed. Technology alters our conscience as a 4th factor made by man. Staying up because of Artificial lightsources. Your conscience changes and you are less (or more) aware, you cry or become mad or just crop it up but it will keep you fixed on that thought throughout your life influencing your conscience.
So conscience is more than Emotions alone. It is also the knowledge of the world you have gained in life where you constantly feedback to. That moment in time you wish to go back to or the happiest day of your life as a fuel for the old human to keep going. Its nice to feedback to a happy life. It keeps balance in Emotions.
Anyways, my opinion.
Please tell me what you think

Been thinking this over again:
Conscience:
The senses pickup the information -> brain -> projects the mind (awareness)
1: Nature:
Being a human: internal processes you cannot control but that define you too (ANS, visceral, etc)
influences from outside: temperature, day/night, external stimuli
2: Cognition: Free Choice (Neo: the problem is choice)
3: Stored data:
Knowledge/wisdom/memories/experiences
4: Belief: your OWN belief on how to make your own choices: how to live. (good vs bad)
5: Technology
6: Emotions

So the senses give you an input from the environment that give rise to your awareness of the world around you. Both nature and technology. You percieve the world around you through them.
The brain is one huge assembly machine. Can command the SNS to induce a form of movement.
We constantly think: feedback to stored data (all in point 3 and 4 above). Emotions can arise to let you know what your nature thinks about the situation. They can be blocked by stubborn fools or mischievous belief.

Hum I find it hard to analyse the conscience with science now..

I think we can't unless we chance the meaning of science itself. Conscience is personal. Everyones conscience is different. Although our consciences are much closer than that of me with lets say a monkey.
How well we keep eachother up to date with our beloved social system and technology.
There is a problem. If I could somehow analyse my own conscience in a scientific approach, would it be proper to use the same analysis on lets say uncle Ben?
Uncle Ben and me have a different perspective on life. Uncle ben believes in the bible but I dont. Clash? Uncle ben has much more wisdom? Uncle Ben is blind now He is 40 years older and in a different stage in life than I am?
For me to fully understand Ben I would have to be Ben. Because he is blind he perceives the world different. I am not so I do not know what it is like to be blind. Sure I can close my eyes, for a while... But it's not the same. I have a choice to open them, Ben doesn't and has to deal with it.
So its a question of your stored data and how well your senses work too I guess.
Female conscience vs male conscience?

I believe we can get a lot of scientific analysis with Neurobiology. Brain regions increase for the remaining fingers when you amputate one. The amputated finger loses it's brain region which is taken over by neighbouring zones (of the other fingers and handpalm). Neurobiology teaches you a lot more about information transport and also from the senses to brain

But the mind is one whole different section. We probably would have to change the meaning of science and scientific approach.
How would you study it in a scientific way? or do you think we cannot (yet)? The problem is choice, isn't it? Or would philosophy be able?

Science is unstable but interesting. There is always another variable that can be added that will alter the result. A scientific test itself is not 100% accurate, nor will it ever be. There are too many things out in the universe (scientifically/theory) that is not known, or not understood.

Like saying everyone is unique, but we are all human. You can certainly observe and semi-replicate how someone perceives the world, but there is just an endless (and I mean infinite) number of ways a person perceives the world. Reason being there is a huge list (possibly endless due to evolution) of other 'things' in the world that can alter ones perception.

With quantum physics demonstrating how matter alters it's behavoir just from being observed, would change the idea of perception itself.

This is a thread for BraveNewWorld .. he's good with these topics . Where is he BTW ????

Yeh, this is one tough question. I don't think its possible either because of the many many influential factors. I tried to just put all the factors from the environment as: stimuli fromthe outside. Could be natural, technological, universal or other people or animals.
And like Dr House says: people lie.
Like if you try to analize someones perspective by asking the subject questions about what he percieves. Could also be lies or miscommunication or whatever else. Certainly not scientific to me. Using Neurobio won't solve the brain to mind barrier puzzle. But can give nice data on how the sensoral pathways and brain regions function together in specific individuals. Also about memory and learning. But there are still many neorobiological questions to be answered as well...
Everyones perspective is different yes and everyones belief is. I think 2 christians don't have the same belief either just because they would (i think) filter different meanings from the bible or church sessions. Might be a silly example.
Good for me can be bad for a serialkiller but what i see as a bad habit in the killer, the killer himself might seem like he is doing a good thing killing people who are bad to his own belief? Not saying that all serialkillers are misunderstood, just an example.
Some people claim to have had an OBE. Color inverion tricks and other pictures or texts playing tricks with the mind. Freudian slips from the unconciousness and more.
I cannot disprove claims of OBE's based on just my own belief/experiences.

yes we can analyse perception.

its called sanity.

insanity is simply those enveloped [maybe too thickly] in thoughts.

Science is incomplete . Because it emantes from human brains . Observation of the infinite universe by limited creatures . Humans are limited . They don't even control their own birth or death . Science is the way humans call their views of things. It is thus subject to error. Errare humanum est !

The problem is choice.

You can program a computer as brilliant as you like but humans have the unique ability to go in against their moral guidelines. Their internal feelings or what-so-ever. Why not do it the other way for once? A computer always has to follow rules and has no free will. Even the most sophisticated randomized behaviour a machine can perform, there will always be integers, setpoints that guides the machines actions. It cannot defy it's own coding. It will always serve it's indoctrined commands, how diverse they may be. A computer has no choice. What makes us able to do so? Conscience, what are you? Is there an internal biological source hidden in the dopamine system? or anywhere else? Or maybe there is no free will and it is just another fantasy of us? Ahh this is crazy man why can't I answer this question? Is it so close to the meaning of life then that man must not know how to manipulate his final judgement? Maybe we are all biological machines that were meant to walk a certain road, cursed with the idea that we are in control of ourselves.
Or maybe... Our knowledge pool, yes yes.
Like what to do now. I will choose out of free will. Like a computer can pick one out of 100-1000-1000000 or whatever commands at it's own liking. Pick a random number 1 to 1000000 for example. I cannot do something I cant imagine or just dont imagine at a given time but have before. I can do new things (because I have not done it before) but I am aware of the existance of this choice. It exists in my knowledge pool because I have come to know it by the tales of others i percieved in the past (even 1 sec ago) and would like the experience for myself as well. To really know what it is like. What a computer does not have, however, are emotions to point him towards a choice. But you can program it to let it make a choice under a certain condition IF AND etc.. The emotional system councils man on what to do(councils but will not take action for you). You think and when the thought/choice is nice you can feel this as a happy or positive internal feeling; the desire to pick this choice. It just cant defy that programming. In a way you could call emotions our own internal programming as nature placed upon us, or GOD if you are a believer. The lust for exploration versus the security of the familiar.
Hum man has the ability to self-program? lol ok i stop for today :/ Free choice is still a mental manifestation to me that I cannot link to the body in any way.
Free choice is only as free as our imagination reaches.

The only difference from technology and humans is we have the power of choosing at will, they can only choose from what is given or ordered to them.
Yes they can infer decisions based on criteria, but the fact is, someone had to write that code for it to "learn".

We think in random order. We can control what and how we think. We aren't programmed, rather we are given the knowledge to survive, only with the basic functions to act upon them. The whole idea of consciousness is beyond the basic principal of life to survive. Our human instincts are to live and keep at it. The purpose of the conscious is to communicate with other human beings, for the main purpose to evolve.

Put one conscious-less robot or human in a room with another just the same. Now they may ramble about random facts such as, "I have to go hunting for food", the other would agree or stay on the same topic. Now as a conscious driving being, you take into account, other factors, in which include the emotional system(s). This whole giant bundle gets its purpose from the conscious, otherwise, it would be sending useless commands to the brain. Thus, you may infer based on visual and audio that the other "robot" is of low income, to which he has to go hunting for his own food. From there which triggers the emotional system making you feel sad.


Communication can be either an exchange of understandable language, or can be a deep level of connection with another of which both can communicate on level so built-in, that we don't even notice. Language was created to simplify the understanding the one another, but then you cover the built-in layer with a systematic form of communication. This waters down, per say, what it is to be human.

But then again, every tool has it's good and bad sides; just like everything else in life

I agree with you on some part but not all of it.
Be careful what words you use. I don't think we think in random order. As you contradict yourself on that here. Random, to me, is completely free of bias. But then you speak of instincts that make us pick one side of the choice rather than the other. If we all would think completely random. I would probably not be here typing this. I think it would be chaos everywhere. There are emotions yes that, to me are, atleast one of the links between body and the mind. They are also disrupting completely random thinking. Emotions can be interpreted by the mind. It is part of our brilliant design that we still have not decyphered. The mere fact that we are clueless about this and the mere fact that there arise discussions is a sign that there is so much still to be unraveled.

"But then again, every tool has it's good and bad sides; just like everything else in life."
I don't think tools can be seen as good or evil or have good or bad sides. Tools are lifeless and it's all about how the man in control of the tool uses it and most important: Why? For what reason? Good and evil are part of mans belief. Everyone has their own definition of the words based on what they have been through in life. But there is also the biological self. And a general consensus. We all learn from others and we all learn to go in against what others say because we believe they are mistaken or bad or just because we are stubborn and the lessons offered are clashing with your own belief in a specific moment in time. I, for one, am wise enough to know that my belief might be different tomorrow, next week or in 10 years.

"The purpose of the conscious is to communicate with other human beings, for the main purpose to evolve."
Yes, Communication can be done in many forms. It is very important for evolution. Not only for humans but for other animals as well. But i don't believe it is the phurpose of conscience. It might be a part of it. I wont make assumptions here. But I believe there is much more to conscience than just to communicate. To interpret my environment I do not need to first consult or communicate with others about it. I can percieve my environment and think about what I see and that this perception also plays a part in my conscience about the world. Well it depends on how you define communication ofcourse because your body can communicate with itself as well. But that, atleast, is not what you said as you flawfully put the part "with other human beings" in your statement. I do not have to have a conscience to be able to communicate. But communication makes things easier. Do ants have a conscience? They do communicate. Or any other animal you can think of. But if they do have a conscience, then you are atleast more right than I believe you are right now. Communication is very important for evolution as a species. For sure that is a truth. But not the phurpose of the conscience.

"Put one conscious-less robot or human in a room with another just the same. Now they may ramble about random facts such as, "I have to go hunting for food", the other would agree or stay on the same topic.Now as a conscious driving being, you take into account, other factors, in which include the emotional system(s). This whole giant bundle gets its purpose from the conscious, otherwise, it would be sending useless commands to the brain. Thus, you may infer based on visual and audio that the other "robot" is of low income, to which he has to go hunting for his own food. From there which triggers the emotional system making you feel sad."
I hope your affinity for science fiction is not as ample as I think it is so that it will influence your clear thought. I have no clue how robots would communicate but I think they will do it in a perfectly rational manner. And they would stay on the same topic IF they were programmed exactly the same way. The conscience is not the source of emotion. It is the body. Not even gonna explain it, rather grab a book about neurobiology.

"Communication can be either an exchange of understandable language, or can be a deep level of connection with another of which both can communicate on level so built-in, that we don't even notice. Language was created to simplify the understanding the one another, but then you cover the built-in layer with a systematic form of communication. This waters down, per say, what it is to be human."
Some messages do not need words to be described. All that is spoken will be: I know exactly how you feel. Now that word feel is very important

I made a scetch of how i think it all intertwines. It answers all the questions for me I have been able to think of and it solves all the problems but one. I cannot prove that gap in the body and the mind in a scientific way. The problem is mainly that science demands objectivity. Whilst this is something subjective(personal). It makes us all a bit different.

The basic idea is this.
We have a moment in time.
There is sensoral input (external and internal communication+perception) which gets processed by the brain. This can arouse FEELING. And it gives rise to perception.
Feeling(emotion) and perception(awareness) determine our conscience.

We have a whole social network full of knowledge that we share and we can consult. We can consult others or on our own, simply by experiencing life. We can search google (technology). And we can and will also store this data into our own data pools (wisdom, knowledge, belief, memory). Into our own mind, some people use to say it.
thinking can arouse FEELING as well, which can affect our judgement in choicemaking at that moment in time. There might be recognition when you compare that moment with an earlier moment which you have in your memory pool, just to give an example.

There is a phenomenal(what it is to be human) and a cognitive part(reasoning, free will, etc) of the mind.

Subconscious and conscious are two other labels. I believe the difference is a matter of alertness but there is more. So, how aware you are. But also your affinity to interpret feeling and perceived info. And more or less what nature gives you(natural reflexes). Also, some people were born with a higher IQ than others. there are many factors that make us different from eachother.

When you enter your own room you know what your room is like and you wont look at all your posessions over and over again unless you are bored out of your mind (or craving/addiction/you just need it at that time). What I mean here is that you will not look for 5 minutes at a chair before you sit down. It has become conditioned. when that conditioning it altered, it demands much more alertness from you.
Let's keep it simple for now and picture a 'normal' man (without psychological complexities i mean here). The stuff taken for granted because it is always the same(chairs dont run off, they are to sit down on etc.). Well basically where I am trying to go at here is this: We take for granted. That could be read as we make assumptions. Propositions. Normally we are right, but not everything is always what it seems to be. Maybe not for this example but there are other examples where we think our subconscious is at work. The subconscious is more i think. also our natural "coding" is at work(the natural reflexes). To me there is just conscience but the level of alertness, our fitness, grudges/assumptions/discrimination towards/against...etc.
Feeling is a much more important word.
Emotions and feeling are basically the same but I come to know that I like the word feeling better. Feeling with your hands is touch.

When we think about memories we can feel happy or sad. We can have a guilty conscience. Neglection in youth or being born a superstar. This all determines who you are. What past chases you. Psychological disorders can arise from a bad childhood. Abusal, negligence, trauma etc.
The datapool i keep mentioning is our bibliography of our past life. This contains the soul. I believe this to be our feeling bibliography. The body signals to the mind, which to me is a manifestation of superior intellect. We are born in a physiological world from a fertilized egg. Inside the womb then into a baby, with a mind that is certainly not aware at the time of birth. This grows in time and at the end of the road when you wither away as an old man, it will eventually shrink again. the body(and brain) loses the fitness so it affects the mind too.
Bla bla, the brain is all there is to me. But because of our talent as a human, the talent of superior intelligence(Im comparing with other animals on the planet not with gods because then we are puny yes..), we are aware. It is evolution. It came to be, through selective pressure on that trait. It is all over the world. We actively seek to become smarter as a species all the time so that we may achieve more. Create technology and write texts full of explanations.
It is both a gift and a curse.

Random cannot and will never be completely random however you try and twist it's definition (not trying to be harsh). What I mean is, random always has a base, and from there a list of probably outcomes is chosen by chance. So random can't be free of bias, because it is dependent on other sources. The bigger the list, the more random it may be, but it still isn't absolute randomness.

I believe the conscience could be explained and advanced but not by physical means or tool but trained emotions and processed thought to reach understanding. The only way we do that through trial and errors of life and the way you use that wisdom thats dats if you notice it.

Anthropologists can. They have discovered [by comparing many different cultures] that conscience is just a set of imperatives and tabus that are inculcated into all babies and children of that cultural, and enforced by the adult population, perhaps by shunning. So conscience is not some divine attribute. It is just part of the culture you grew up in. ~~~ Cebrakon

If there is anything divine or not about this, I am not meant to answer for others. Only for myself. Which I have not done yet if I may add.
Yes, if your reality is defined by indoctrination of your kind and you have not seen life beyond, Reality is based on that. everyday reasoning, good&evil, what and what not, etc
Makes me think about the allegory of the cave. Kinda about the matrix too. Whatever you prefer

Conscience; Cogito ergo sum (Descartes,R):
Maybe a product of intelligence through human evolution under selective pressures(craving to know, rise of technology, founding of social networks)
*Current physical/mental/emotional/social state
*Affinities: talents/weaknesses, belief(bible/koran/your own belief concerning the metaphysical), Memory, feeling
*Free will: Planning, insight, how to operate the body
*Perception: Attention given, Other humans, animals, Colors, Smell, Taste, Nature, Technology, Time, social network (indoctrination, etc (this is a very big list today))

I reduced it back into a clash of opposing trinities:
Balance vs Imbalance: to be what is most important (for you), or not
Willpower vs Indifference: To strife for that which is most important (for you), or not
Perception vs Blur: To see that which is most important (for you), or not
at a given time.
Phenomenal vs Ego?

You have touched on a critical question concerning the nature of humanity. I am sorry that you have had to carry on most of the debate within yourself, and it is suprising that more people have not picked up on the issue, because it is often discussed tangentially in other threads. Personally, I think you are on the right track with some of your points. Assuming by conscience you mean the set of ethical/moral/philosophical and religious values which people and societies develop, then these are unique to humanity. While either evolution or creation brought us to the point where we developed self aware consciousnes,s combined with the cognitive/analytical power of the human brain, after that we create our own religious/ moral /ethical/ etc principles

The process is not as simple as cebrakon describes it. Each human has the potential to make choices and act in a wide variety of ways. We are not truly conditioned; either by our genetics, evolutionary forces, or the moulding of society. Our mind/selfaware consciousness allows self analysis, and other processes, which are the difference between being a programmed computer, only capable of responding within its programming, and a true artificial intelligence, which is capable of stepping outside/beyond its programming to be creative, up to the point of creating new programmes.

If cebrakon was completely correct, so many people would not be able to break away from the values and ethics of their societies. If you do much reading at all (by creative authors eg novelists) you will know that the creative and analytical abilities of the mind allow humans to recognise the effects of any form of programming (even, in recent years, genetic) and choose to step outside/around it, or use many other techniques to nullify its effect.

Thus conscience is something we choose (or not) Its nature depends not only on hereditary/environmental and social forces, but on the innate ability of the human mind to construct hypothetical questions, and provide a variety of answers to each of these questions.

By the way, cebrakon, babies (like animals) do not have a conscience.They can be taught any response by systems of reward and punishment, but a conscience and an ethical system requires a level of brain development which does not occur in young children, and is never reached in animals. Again, it is a combination of self awareness and cognitive processing.

To test this, try asking philosophical/ethical/hypothetical questions of young children. I forget the age where this ability develops, but it is certainly later than the age of 3 or four, because some apes come close to the developmental level of some three year olds.

Like Mr Walker said, I do not believe it is 100% conditioning as well.
For sure, Our conscience is probably by far determined by conditioning, but not completely. There will always be individuals that are able to think 'outside of the box'. I believe feeling plays a keyrole in understanding the innate section of the conscience. You do what you like best. You avoid nasty experiences. Yes, this IS classical conditioning but based on innate roots as well. These roots are slightly different in all of us. However, for humans, learned behaviour is especially much greater than these innate reflexes. The kind of behaviour we are able to do without learning.

There are ignorant people that do not know there is more to life. There are indifferent ones that do not care. And there are philosophers that are aware and want to expand their knowledge about themselves, always keeping a sceptical eye on what others suggest/command. It does matter who you are. If you are narrowminded, you cluelessly go along with the ones prescribing your behaviour to you. If you are not, then you are becoming much more aware of what is and what not. So basically, this alone suggests that there is a genetic or inborn "guidance system" as well. But also a lot more (imho) of conditioning in any form: habituation, imitation, trial-error, insight, impression upon yourself takes place in humans than any other animal. Especially the ability of insight.

As I also believe babies do not have a conscience when they are born, it suggests that all of the conscience is formed after being born. Conditioning? There is always a time of parenting needed so that the baby will develop his self awareness in safety. But the feelings and/or internal setpoints imprinted in ourselves can never be denied a role in the conscience.

Finally some info on innate reflexes (enough conditioning as it is):
Innate/genetic:
These kinds of behaviour are natural.
Basically all the stuff that is operated by the brain through the Autonomous Nervous System (not under influence of will). Well ofcourse there are some buddist monks that can do some crazy stuff with their body but let's ignore them for now. And even if you want to bring them up, there are STILL forms of behaviour they cannot control through will.
Where I am trying to go at is that the ANS partially defines who/what we are so if affects the conscience. As in our realization of ourselves. Deficiences here, well they can lead to permanent blindness. Do I need to go on?

When a baby is confronted with a certain type of behaviour, it will react in an appropriate way. Like a sound of great volume, nasty frequency. The ability to cry as a sign that something is up.
Also, as a friend who is a Biology teacher told me: If you confront a baby with a spider, it will be scared to some extent. He even said that it happens to all babies. I don't want to go that far but he has always been a reliable source when it comes to this stuff. There might be truth to it.

Like I said earlier. Feelings are very important here as well. But feelings can be altered, manipulated. Who wouldn't want a positive increase in their homeostatic levels of e.g. happyness? Today there are many more forms than you are aware of to manipuate this.

Ok, it's time to be a bit more serious towards the roots of this tread: Can we analyse conscience with science?

First of all: there are billions of neurons that work together (many many interconnections) to process sensoral input into memory (and to feedback on them)
This will be a fast scetch of what I know about neurology:
implicit memories: memories concerning skills, procedures, how-to's (how to drive a car). These kind of memories are less likely to be forgotten but, on average, require more effort/practice. they will become part of the subconscious.
explicit memories: memories concerning events (breakfast of this morning)
There are 3 important memory systems inside the brain. short-term, long-term and working memory(temporary info storage).
If sensory information is consolidated, it becomes long-term memory. This can be done by repeating either memories stored in the short-term or working memory. Best to leave a bit of time in between the successive repetitions.
Then there are engrams/memory traces(physical representation/location of a memory). The problem with engrams is, as labrats have shown, that the neural changes of these engrams are not just located in one specific area of the cortex. they all supplement one another. deficits in one region of the brain will just lower the ability to store/retreive info. Also, there are 5 senses teaming up, not just one.
Case studies on the macaque monkeys:
The temporal lobe is involved in the storage of explicit memories that can be reasily accessed by the conscience (past events)
the medial temporal lobe is involved to judge whether or not a stimulus has been seen before.
The diencephalon is also important for memory processing. deficits here can lead to amnesia, korsakoff sydrome.
The hippocampus plays a role in the consolidation proces to create long-term memories.
The striatum is thought to be involved with the formation of implicit memories like habits and skills.
Prefrontal cortex: Uses the working memory for insight and the planning of actions. Many different areas inside the prefrontal cortex seem to be involved in humans.

So then, there are many many regions of our brain involved in mem storage and it does so in different forms. that suggests (and has been scientifically proven) that deficits in one part will lead to a whole different syndrome than in another part. Even if two men have no deficiencies, they are not completely the same.. inside. It will thus affect the conscience of each in a different way.
Maybe I should just have kept the knowledge pool. It makes things easier on the bigger picture.

Ok basically this was a fast sum-up. there is much more to this though(e.g. @ synaptic level etc), plus still heavily experimented upon.
And there is more than just neurology ofcourse. I have read some other interesting stuff like the 40Hz hypothesis of Crick and Koch concerning 40Hz synchrone gammaband oscillations involved in cognition. and maybe string theory might prove usefull about the energy involved here. But the latter would prove useful for a bit more than just conscience
Mind: a projection of the brain?

Im not sure where you are going with this. My understanding is that our mind, consciousness, and even conscience are all products of the physical nature and properties of our brain. Others I know will beg to differ.

Given that science is already capable of erasing specific memories from one's brain and is on the verge of creating /implanting "false"/created memories, then they can probably alter not only our consciousness but also our conscience(I have the feeling that you are talking about the nature of consciousness rather than conscience)

You display a good scientific knowledge of the workings of the brain. I believe that the brain is an incredibly powerful organ, but that it is reliant on the quality/accuracy of data input and on a number of variables within the operating processes of different brains.(these are obvious through observable outcomes. EG why do some people seem to have an innate eidetic memory, others can be taught to develop one, while it is not within the capabilities of a third group.

Some people simply believe that consciousness is a seperate entity from physical existence and that universal reality (if it exists at all) may thus be very different from personalised realities of individuals.

I was just talking about conscience. The one element that is common to all cultures is a tabu against murder of your fellow citizens, in your own society. Sometimes that is a very narrow group. Today, that group that we may not murder has become global. If this tabu works well and is strong and enforced, murder vanishes. Notice that "murder" is not equivalent to "killing." The ten commandments probably originally meant "thou shall not commit murder." But in every society, including ours, it is not murder to defend yourself, or fight in a war, or execute a murderer, or a sociopath, or anyone who does not possess a conscience, so defined.

~~Cebrakon

Sorry cebrakon, my post was in reference to crazyrichie's last post, where I was not clear if he was talking about conscience or consciousness, although I can see how you might have thought it harkened back to your last post also. I am just not quite clear where crazyrichie is taking his train of thought, and I thought perhaps I was confusing his terminology.

Ah, sry about the confusion. I always have stupid mistakes like that.
I'm talking about the consciousness(awareness of ones being), not conscience(regarding moral values, good/bad, etc).
Thanks for pointing that out

Hehe, anyways to reply:
I also believe that the consciousness is derived from matter(brain, or the entire nervous system might be better?). Think of the baby.
eidetic skils (photographic memory) are in virtually everybody lost in adulthood, although I remember seeing this documentary about a guy that could paint in absurdly good detail after having viewed something for just a brief period of time. It's a trait of autistic savants I believe. Makes you wonder about this topic yes.

This is where I am trying to go now:
There is something that still bothers me. We constantly absorb so much knowledge into our brains, learn languages, tactics, patterns, how-to's but also gain memories about events. How is it possible that all of these tons of data can be stored in the brain? This is kinda where I want to go in all of this. I know there are billions and billions of neurons, but still. Maybe we can only absorb new memories if it comes at the cost of some old? overwrite? I have no clue.
Well I have been doing some netsurfing just now and it might have something to do with the matter of attention. If we constantly experience the same, then it will be consolidated into long-term memory. This could only just be a pattern underlying multiple experiences. If no attention is given, then we will forget most but remember only a bit. Emotion is also important i think. When there is a lot of emotional value attached to an event, then it might become consolidated instantly out f the working memory.

There are loads of different brain regions 'teaming up' when it comes to memory processing and each area plays a different role in all of this. Colors, smell, taste, visual recognition, reading, writing, etc.

Now then, as I mentioned before, there are tons of neurons involved in all of this. They form a very complex network and send electrical signals from and to other neurons. They do this by means of synaptic transmission. A synaptic cleft is the zone between the pre- and postsynaptic membranes of 2 neurons. Basically the place where the signal is being passed on to another neuron. This is pretty tough brainfood but what I'm getting here is that, when it comes to learning and forming memories, synapses are altered permanently for long-term memories (learned procedures and emotional events). The Ca2+ ion is very important here, as it is important for synaptic plasticity. This could be a key to declarative memories (memories of events) that are forgotten/replaced in time. But when a lot of emotion is attached to an event, it will remain. As in trauma's.
Please correct me if I am wrong though, as with that silly conscience flaw lol.

Ok, now finally conscience (yes not consciousness this time ). This might be the result of ones behaviour (like murdering as Cebrakon points out) in a clash with the most basic forms of human innate behaviour regarding survival: attack/defence, sexual, etc. Behaviour that was already in us w/o learning. Sure you can perfect these forms of behaviour using conditioning, like mastering the kamasutra or becoming a martial arts expert. The basic behaviour regarding survival instincts is innate and did not have to be conditioned. So lets go back to murdering. This is against the innate behaviour regarding survival as a species. Like it can be found in more primitive animals. They do not kill their kin unless they have a good reason for it or have incorporated it as an evolutionary strategy like, for example, the black widow spider. I completely agree with you that killing is not the same. Nature promotes self defence if a rabid individual of a population would go for it's own kin, it is an unstable factor that needs to be eliminated. Or predator vs prey. Sometimes the prey teams up to kill the predator. Animals do not take prisoners. I can imagine myself being chased by a guilty conscience if I murder, but killing a man out of self-defence if there was no other way would atleast be less wieght on my shoulders in that perspective.

I hope this post clears up some of my previous posts.

thats ok cr. I just wanted to be sure. I see the brain as you do. It is only in the last few years that scientists have developed the technology to allow them some analysis of brain fundtion at a sophisticated level. They still have a way to go, both with the technology, and of the results they are getting.

Memory in itself is a fascinating thing. I used to remember almost everything I saw and read for a long period afterwards, but have not maintained that skill. I think it was partly innate and partly learned. By the time I finished university I could read several hundred pages of lecture notes, then go into an exam and visualise every word on every page, turning the pages over in my mind backwards and forwards. Given that i cannot visualise, consciously, the simplest mental image, this was purely a memory function. I remembered what i had read.

I used to go to school council and other meetings and later be able to repeat the motions agendas etc word for word, from oral memory. Now my memory is much less, but it still helps me win at one of my favourite social activities; quiz/trivia nights

My father and another male relative both suffered temorary global amnesia, Luckilly, dad was home. He woke up not remembering his wife of 40 years or any of that 40 year period, although he knew who he was.
My uncle was not so lucky, He was out on Lake eyre, in a tin boat, alone, when it hit him. He could not remember where he was, or how he got there and had no idea how to get back. Luckily he kept his head, stayed with his boat on a sand bar and scratched HELP in the sand. He was spotted by a search plane and rescued safely.

Brain memory is a fascinating thing. I haven't looked this up, but I seem to remember that the nervous system has a trillion neurons, each connected to as many as 100,000 other neurons by a synaptic gap capable of passing and receiving one or more of 50 neurotransmitters. And there are 10 times as many glial cells, purpose unknown. There is a great deal of digital signal processing too. The retina has several levels of signal processing before the signal is sent off to the brain. Some high level neurons in the retina detect edges, or movement.

The brain can do some things the mind cannot, such as reading these arbitrary shapes we are stringing together and passing back and forth. Oh, yes, didn't you know? The mind and brain are totally different. This is scientifically proven by many Psychical Researchers, such as Ian Stevenson, Raymond Moody, G.N.M. Tyrrell and many others.

~~~Cebrakon

First some science:
"And there are 10 times as many glial cells, purpose unknown."
This is not entirely true.
These are the 4 types of glial cells I have learned about in school. Also, I have been taught them to have specific functions. On the whole picture these glial cells maintain the environment in which the neural network is imbedded. They are support cells. The astrocytes (by far the most numerous) however have a rather unknown function. I have been taught they act as "bathing substance" for the neurons or to stabilize the neural networks in the brain, rather than have the neurons just hang loosely inside your head and having them knot up. Also they are thought to regulate chemical contents and determine growth/retraction of neurites. But I agree that there might be much more to these cells than we currently know. The same goes for the other 3 types of glial cells, although the functions described below are very clear. Just, maybe not complete. Who can tell?
About glial cells:
1: astrocytes: regulate extracellular environment(chemical content) of the brain. They fill the rest of the space inside the brain(bathe neurons). (function questionable/unknown)
2: oligodendroglia: myelin production around axons in the brain+spinal cord (function clear)
3: schwann cells: myelin production around axons in peripheral nervous system (function clear)
4: microglia: cleaning up of waste materials (function clear)

Im guessing that all you want to do is point out how diverse the brain is. Yes I am well aware of it. Lol my brain still hurts just by thinking about the brain alone.
I agree that the visual imput from the eyes is being processed down the brain in a very complex way. there are even different pathways all processing different aspects of what the eyes pick up. A good example is light information being transmitted to the SCN to stimulate/inhibit melatonin production in the end which has influences regarding sleeping. Same goes for synaptic transmissions. Many different neurotransmitters, co-transmitters, re-uptake blockers, receptors and receptor modifiers like benzodiazepines, cleaners, etc, etc ,etc

"Oh, yes, didn't you know? The mind and brain are totally different."
Yes I knew.
Like I pointed out as well as Mr Walker is that the mind is a product of the brain which does not imply it being the same. They work together in certain ways.
Is an apple the same as the apple tree it came from?
I see the brain as a huge assembly machine, strifing for balance/homeostasis.

All around you are imbalances nowadays, just a few of what you see is what is truely compatible with your body and through the body the mind.