Well, no more references to the djed pillar perhaps but here a couple which appear to apply to the choke at the top of the djed. There were four bands which apparently oriented it in three dimensions and inserted teeth which increased pressure and allowed it to be adjusted up and down several feet.

utt 45

35a. Osiris N., take to thyself the white teeth of Horus which equip thy mouth. Five white cakes.

Osiris is being exhorted to rise through the djed and the teeth
of Horus. The djed is an extension of Horus. Perhaps the five
white cakes presented to Osiris is an implication that there are
five teeth in the choke.



This next one is far less certain but I'm including it since it's al-
ready typed out.

utt 265A

...1916-2 (N. 709 + 4). This great one sleeps, he sleeps; wake up, raise thyself up.
1916-3 (Nt. 738). Great is thine odour, pleasant to the nose, the odour of ’I[].t-wt.t.

’I[].t-wt.t is the yeast gas which powers the geyser.

1916a (Nt. 738). O N., thou hast collected thy bones; thou hast collected thy limbs;
1916b (Nt. 738-739). Thou hast assigned (left in legacy) thy teeth; thou hast taken thy heart to thy body;

1917 (Nt. 739). thou hast shaken the dust (lit. earth) from thy flesh;

Wow.

I can't imagine how I overlooked including this djed reference here. I'm very familiar with it. It's not of extreme importance but it does reinforce the concept that the djed is a sycamore and the djed protects Osiris or the bull of the hole.

Utterance, 299.

444a. To say: The uraeus-serpent is for heaven; the centipede of Horus is for the earth.
444b. Horus had a sandal as he advanced (towards) the master of the house, the bull of the hole,
444c. the combat-serpent. N. will not be beaten,
444d. (for) his protective sycamore is the protective sycamore of N., his refuge is the refuge of N.
444e. Whom N. finds in his way, him he eats for himself bit by bit.

This is interesting. In the Kabbalah the tree of life is the Siferot issuing from the five different levels or dimensions called the Olamot. Olamots are universes of Adam Kadmon (primordial human being). The fifty siferot are called the fifty gates of understanding. I wonder if this might have been taken from the traditions of the djed.

You've probably lost most readers. The utterance above goes on to strongly
imply that the djed and sycamore are the tree of life.

1215a. when he was journeying through the land in his two white sandals,
1215b. and went to see his father, Osiris.
1215c. N. opened his way like fowlers;
1215d. N. exchanged greetings with the lords of kas;
1216a. N. went to the great island in the midst of the Marsh of Offerings,

The great island in this line is most probably not the a primordial mound since
"marsh of offerrings" is likely literal; it is an island in the marsh of reeds from
which drains the lakes of the geysers.

1216b. on which the gods cause the swallows to alight.
1216c. The swallows are the imperishable stars.
1216d. They give to N. the tree of life whereof they live,
1216e. that N. may, at the same time, live thereof.

The sycamore often grows as a hollow tree. It also has a fruit which is of great
importance in many herbal remedies. As a djed it allows the God (&N) to live
and to rise.

1217a. (Morning Star), cause thou N. to ferry over with thee,
1217b. to this thy great field, which thou didst subdue with the aid of the gods,
1217c. (where) thou eatest at evening and at dawn, which is full of food.

It is this water from the Gods which allows the crops to grow.

1218a. N. eats of that which thou eatest;
1218b. N. drinks of that which thou drinkest.

The Gods are like men in that they too eat.

1218c. Put thou the back of N.
1218d. against the post, against it who is before its sisters.

This is very telling but most are just going to call it another error in the Pyramid
Texts. It is not an error. It is referring to "the back of N against the post". This
is the God's back who is standing in the djed. While the djed is masculine the in-
side of the djed and all of its sisters are feminine.

1219a. Thou (Morning Star) makest N. to sit down because of his truth
1219b. (and) to stand up because of his venerableness.
1219c. N. stands; he has taken (his) venerableness in thy presence,

The Gods are most devine when they stand. It is only when they stand that there
is water for the crops. They are always Gods though, even in their evil comings.

Thanks for the input.

From what era is the Kabalah?

Utterance 403.

699a. To say: O thou whose ‘ȝb-tree becomes green, who is over his field;
699b. O thou flower-opener, who is on his sycamore;
699c. O thou with the green lands, who is over his ’iȝm-tree;

Hmmm, "flower opener on his sycamore" is interesting. He is over his fields and a tree and for some reason has green lands.

700a. O lord of the green fields, rejoice to-day.
700b. N. will henceforth be among you; N. will go forth in your neighbourhood;
700c. N. will live on that on which you live.

Again green lands.

701a. O bulls of Atum,
701b. make N. fresh, refresh N. more than the red crown which is upon his head;
701c. more than the inundation which is up to his breast (or, lap, or knee), more than the dates, which are in his fist.

The red crown is always lower pressure because it's early season.

In order to not interpret this as a single entity (geyser) you'll have to change your referent and perspective mid-stream. How can the inundation be both over the trees yet only breast deep? How would there be green fields if there were an inundation at all? If he's on a sycamore then how is flower opening accomplished?

Like all these questions these are legitimate as well.

And if you think you might be making progress on the answers then explain what the bull of Atum (the first God who created himself) is doing in the middle of nowhere.

Why do these make sense from the perspective of geysers?

Here's another from utterance 470;

...915a. that N. may see his, father; that N. may see Rē‘."
915b. "Thou are on the way to the high places, to the places of Set."
916a. The high places will put him on the places of Set;
916b. (even) on that high sycamore cast of the sky, it having bent down, on which the gods sit;...

This is apparent gibberish in English so perhaps there's a small translation error. Perhaps it should read;

"on that high sycamore cast to the sky"

Perhaps the Pyramid Texts aren't mostly gibberish at all.

I'm sure I mentioned this one before but it's seems to be becoming clearer and dovetails well with the recent post in "The Clockwork Pyramid". It's from #536.

1296a. (And) men will construct with their arms a stairway to thy throne.
1296b. He comes to thee his father; he comes to thee Geb.

1297a. Do for him that which thou hast done for his brother, Osiris,
1297b. on this day of thy feast, the water being full (i. e. at inundation),

This is at the new year when Osiris is born.

1297c. when (his) bones are counted, when (his) sandals are repaired,
1297d. when his nails, upper and lower, are cleaned for him,
1297e. There will come to him (people of) the Upper Egyptian ’itr.t-palace and of the northern ’itr.t-palace, bowing --.

His "sandals" is the djed pillar, of course. The nails are the teeth which
control the pressure at the top of the djed.

#497

857a. To say: The watered fields are satisfied, the canals are inundated
857b. for N. on this day,
857c. when his spirit is given to him, when his might is given to him.

858a. Raise thyself up, N., take to thyself thy water; gather to thee thy bones.
858b. Stand up upon thy feet; spirit art thou at the head of the spirits.

Take to thyself thy water and stand as head of the spirits.
"Bones" are the caverns feeding the waters of Nu into the
eye which makes Osiris (et al) live.

859a. Raise thyself up for this thy bread, which cannot mould,
859b. for thy beer, which cannot become sour,

The bread and beer can't go bad until after the grain has
been harvested and processed.

Utterance 568.

1431a. To say: He is gone who went to his ka; Mḫnti-’irti is gone to his ka;
1431b. N. is gone to his ka, to heaven.
1431c. A ladder is made for him, upon which he mounts, in its name of "That which mounts to heaven."

A ladder is made for the dead king.

1432a. His boat is brought to him by the d‘m-sceptres of the imperishable stars.
1432b. The bull (or, ox) of heaven lowers its horn, so that he may pass thereon to the lakes of Dȝ.t.
1433a. O N., thou dost not fall to the ground.
1433b. N. lays hold of the two sycamores, which are in the middle of yonder side of the sky,
1433c. which ferry him over, and they set him on the eastern side of the sky.

The deadking does not fall to the ground because he passes through
the upper Eye of Horus and is ferried over to the eastern side of the
sky.

And as long as we're discussing this geyser business,


Believe it or not, this wouldn't even remotely be the first time I've seen corpse-stink discribed as "sweet", "sickly sweet" even.

Very interesting. This smell just gags me.

Of course there's more to efflux than just what it smells like.

Utterance 679.

2031a. To say: Thy water belongs to thee; thine efflux belongs, to thee; thine inundation belongs to thee,
2031b. issuing from Osiris...


Utterance 536.

1291a. To say: Thy water belongs to thee, thine abundance belongs to thee, thine efflux comes out of Osiris to thee.
1291b. The double doors of heaven are open for thee; the double doors of Nut are open for thee;...

Utterance 690.

...2114a. Exult in the divine efflux which is in thee; let thy heart live;
214b. thy divine limbs are in good condition; loosen thy bindings...


Utterance 32.

22a. This is thy cool water, Osiris; this is thy cool water, O N., which went forth from thy son, which went forth from Horus.
22b. I have come; I have brought to thee the eye of Horus, that thy heart may be refreshed by it. I have brought it to thee. It is under thy soles.
23a. Take to thyself the efflux (sweat), which goes forth from thee; thy heart shall not be weary thereby.
23b. To say four times, when thou goest forth justified: Libation; two pellets of natron.

Utterance 33.

24a. To say: Osiris N., take to thyself this thy libation, which is offered to thee by Horus,
24b. in thy name of "He who is come from the Cataract"; take to thyself the efflux (sweat) which goes forth from thee...

The heiroglyphs for "cataract" is said to mean "cool watery region".

It still makes more sense to believe that this efflux associated with cool
water is actually CO2. Elsewhere this efflux is linked with I[].t-wt.t which
seems to be best translated as "yeast gas" (CO2).

I've known about this one for a long time and forgot to add it here because the djed pillar is not specifically mentioned. The wAs sceptor is the tool used to adjust the throttle of and add natron at the djed. It probably had no other function other than ceremonial.

967a. N. comes to thee, lord of heaven; N. comes to thee, Osiris,
967b. that N. may wipe thy face, that N. may clothe thee with the clothes of a god,
967c. that N. may do for thee that which Geb commanded that he should do for thee,
967d. that he fasten thine arm on the ’nh-sceptre, that he lift up thine arm on the wȝś-sceptre.
968a. N. comes to thee, lord of heaven; N. comes to thee, Osiris,
968b. that N. may wipe thy face, that N. may clothe thee with the clothes of a god,

The clothes of a God is the rainbow.

He stands in the Eye of Horus.

The djed pillar is related to the Polaris religions of ancient times. The axis on which the world turns. Type in djed pillar Pillar Cult Polaris into Google and see how much info is there about it. Since you now know Osiris is from the Getae which is of the Pillar Cult, same as Atlantis, it might fall into place for you. Origins of the Primordial Mound can also be found here, basically in Hyperborea.
Read the first post in my Atlantis origins in Hyperborea for lots more info on the World Axis, Pillar, Mt Meru religion that engulfed religion everywhere.

I heard that osiris was related to diana in ways of warshipped. and other female god worship.

anne rice actually made a great fictional mention of her in her vampire novel books. vampire chronicles they call it. FICTIONAL. saying that she was involve in a way, in creating vamps...

Considering I just used the names Zalmoxis/Osiris/Thoth - Hecate/Diana/Artemis - Getae/Danube/Romania(Transylvania) in the same post in my own thread and linking them all together, I can see how this would work...........

Yet, bear in mind that the djed pillar as both cultic object and amulet well precedes Osiris. His association with it doesn't come about till later. In fact, the djed was originally associated with Sokar and Ptah (both gods of the Memphite region), and it's simply a reminder of how Osiris absorbed the aspects and fetishes of other deities as his own cult grew.

I'd be curious to see a single instance of archaeological or linguistic evidence to support a Thracian origin for Osiris.

That Ptah is more associated with it speaks volumes to me. Ptah of the Primordial Mound, the essense of the Hyperborean origins of the Pillar cults.

Quite frankly, kmt, I'm sure it wouldn't matter if I showed you an archaeological site with Asar, Usiris, Osiris or whatever else you expect in big letters on it in Thrace, you would still stick to it all just popping up in Egypt.

I'm tired of it all.

I'll just add though on my way out, I did, since I made that post, add that I thought Zalmoxis teachings were actually Thoth's teachings, not Osiris himself, but you may have missed that in my other thread, but I still believe they originated in Hyperborea:


http://www.backyardprofessor.com/the_backy...s_trismegi.html

I have signed off in my Atlantis Discussion Thread, like I said, I am tired, I have reached the end of my journey of discovery and whatever anyone makes of it, so be it. Ciao kmt.

If you found such a site dating to about 2,500 BCE or earlier and the archeological evidence clearly showed a direct relation to the Egyptian Osiris, then of course I'd be interested. Direct, solid evidence is what guides an orthodox person such as I.

You're probably already aware of it, and no doubt I've mentioned it here in the past, but there are scholars who in fact argue that Osiris was not original to Egypt. There is evidence to support the argument that he came from some neighboring culture, but not somewhere as far away as Thrace.



I rather hope you're not jumping ship. LOL Now, cladking pulled this on all of us once and started up an entire discussion in which he said he was giving up his quest, which I was disappointed to see. I don't agree with cladking's geyser theory but I hated to see him end it after putting so much thought into it, so I offered him my own words of support. Lo and behold he posted to say that he was only kidding and had no intentions of quitting. I wasn't very please with that and felt rather silly after having tried sincerely to encourage him.

So I hope this slight of hand isn't the case with you, because I don't want to see you give up. You're an enjoyable person to debate. You're probably tired of me and my conventional views, and while I'll make no apologies for defending orthodoxy, I do hope you'll stay active with your own quest.

Hey kmt, thanks for that, I am not giving up, I found Atlantis, my quest is complete. I just gave a run down on my conclusions in my Atlantis Discussion Thread, so there is nothing left for me to do here...
I have enjoyed debating with you too, even though you stuck to your guns the whole way through, but that is OK, we all have beliefs and ideas about what is and what isn't. Ours were obviously different.
Anyways, like I said in my own thread, my journey is over, no ship jumping for me, I am at my destination and feel I now need to concentrate on other things in my life. Bye my friend.

wow...atlantis...you must be the smartest person here..you rock! hey next time i see that old snob stinky old history teacher of mine im gana slam him and tell him that you have already found atlantist and that he should retire because he siad it didnt exist.

LOL Absolutely no offense meant to Puzzler, but before you go and piss off your teacher, make sure you also present all of the evidence presented in this long-running discussion so that he can examine it for himself. He might have a thing or two to say.

those who can, do.
those who can't, teach what the doers tell them to.

LOL And the rest make it up whether or not there's real evidence to substantiate it. Ah, the essence of alternative history: science fiction.

On a serious note, shemTov, it's quite sad that you should regard teachers so lowly.

why is that? i am thankful others tell them to.

so what was the issue here? the origin of osiris was it? what is your take kmt? who where when and how?
what is your take on the djed? who when what and why?
did you say this somewhere already?

i am a thirsty sponge.

Yes, I've already shared my own conventional understanding of this numerous times at UM, and if I'm not mistaken, in this very discussion. You're probably well informed of the conventional understanding yourself, shemTov, so there's no reason for me to repeat myself. I probably do too much of that already.

i guess i'll have to go back and see. you say i need not look beyond this topic for all my questions to be answered or that i just need to go to wiki because thats a duplicate of your brain?

i was hoping for some real dirt. the after a few too many parfait amours kinda dirt... you know... wink wink. zahis a two snooter.

Yep, I gotta agree - kmt, didn't I tell you once your posts were like me reading The Dummies Guide to Ancient Egypt?

Yeah, I know, I'm still here......the support of my fans...erm, I mean friends here is keeping me hanging around....

You too can be a supergeek like me

if you stay around here long enough...and research your own decisions.

Many people say it doesn't exist, but it does, Plato didn't just waffle on with a heap of b*s, he was smarter than that, he thought the key to knowledge was that we constantly look for the answers ourself instead of being told the answer, a bit like cheating, show the working out. I showed all the working out of my theory, the whole thread was me showing my working out, whereas many just give us an answer they are told without even knowing how to get the answer...

Chaos...exactly what was going down in Atlantis...

YOU ARE THE MAN!! WHEN I GROW UP I WANT TO BE LIKE YOU!! YOU BEAT CHUCK NORRIS!! constantly look.. you mean not to stop looking till you find it.. i will practice that.. i just remember that i lost my dads i-pod 2 weeks ago.. im sure its in the house somewhere. i should practice this philosophy of yours! and maybe someday when i grow up, like 20 more years, i'd discovery something too!!

i do know one thing, if i tell chuck you are picking on a girl you'll have your a s s kicked out of the fan club faster then you can suck that s not string back into your nose.

oh no, nothing beats chuck norris. not even chuck norris can beat chuck norris.

all you'll be left with is jacki chan [and you'll develop a blister on your a s s called a chris tucker]

but THE PUZZLER found atlantist! ha beat that!

chris tucker has a blister??

what kind of kung fu are you talking about? jacki has a blister and its name is chris. never looked to see if chris had a blister but jacki is rich enough i imagine.

i shouldn't think any sensible person would want to take credit for finding atlantis if they really thought about it. only scientists and puzzler...

the only kung fu i know is playstationkun-do and TEKKEN. im not sure if it would be fun to see if any of those men has blisters on their tusshie, atleast im not interested. do people get interested in them when they start growing up? thank god im 7.

i think its cool that The Puzzle found atlantist! i cant even find my stuff that i misplace! The Puzzler must be a really really acomplished scientist.

hopefully by the time you are 10, puzzler and the scientists will have made the world safe enough for you to play outside.

you really think so?maybe by that time i wont need anyone to help me cross the streets. do scientist do that? concern themselves with kids playing outside?? what a tough job. we should elect one for president! The Puzzler should run for candidacy! he would have my vote.. though i cant vote yet.

you better hope so. otherwise youre just going to keep on looking and acting more and more like uncle fester forever.

Um, no, I do not rely on Wikipedia. I use it only as a reference to share with others on forums like this one. The internet is by and large unreliable, and shockingly so--as any serious student of history will tell you. I have not spent a small fortune on a personal library to allow my books to gather dust.

I can't guarantee that this particular discussion is where you'll find all the posts I've written about the questions with which you challenged me, so I apologize that I made that sound so certain. I doubt you'd go looking for my posts, anyway. I recall going into more detail in a discussion cladking started about the djed. I know I've written a little bit about the djed here, though.

And let's be honest, shemTov: you couldn't care less about what I write or the arguments I present. You wish only to bait me, and I'm not interested in that game. You probably know the answers yourself but have summarily dismissed them because they are conventional and orthodox in nature, and as intelligent an individual as you seem to be, it's quite clear to me you do not have a solid understanding of conventional history and the scientific method that guides researchers and historians, or you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them.

Truth hurts, eh?

LOL What the hell is this Chuck Norris kick, kidchaos? What am I missing?

i read most things you write. i know you are a moderator on a higher quality egyptian board and therefore i am certainly interested. i'm not dumb either. if i can get you to give me a quick lowdown on for instance exactly what the neighboring tribe was you mentioned, or what the deal is on him travelling all over etc etc..

i must say that saying definitively that osiris has no connection to the balkans might be a bit hasty. zahi has a great deal of interest in the balkans.

I know you're not dumb, shemTov. I just don't like to be baited. I am not a professional historian and I don't have all the answers--like everyone else on this and other forums, I'm just passionate about my subject of choice, which specifically is ancient Egypt. I've spent twenty years studying it merely for the love of study and research, and I share what I know with the people I meet at the pair of museums where I'm a docent. I probably take too many things personally and I shouldn't, but I know some Egyptologists and Assyriologists, and I dislike seeing their integrity impugned.

That's neither here nor there. I can't cite a specific neighboring area for the origin of Osiris--no one can. The theory of a foreign origin for Osiris is not something upon which all historians agree, but it's compelling for a couple of reasons:

1) Osiris does not appear in the Egyptian record until the reign of Isesi, late in Dynasty 5.
2) The very way by which his name is written (in the ancient language, wsir or Asir) suggests the Egyptians originally had a difficult time writing it; there is no consensus on what the name even means.

The Egyptians brought numerous other foreign deities into their cultures, usually from Nubia. However, no one can say for certain where the god Osiris came from if he indeed was brought in from another culture. All we know is that once his cult started to grow by late in the Old Kingdom, he swiftly became a popular god among the royals and nobels and, later in time, among the commoners. Afterlife deities like Anubis and Wepwawet and Sokar are much older than Osiris, and yet Osiris assumed many of their roles as his cult grew. These other gods remained in the pantheon, but in a somewhat diminished form.

I don't know what Hawass has to say on this issue and I've never heard him comment on it in detail. I've definitely never heard him mention any Balkans origin, so I have to be dubious about that. He is not my favorite historian by any stretch of the imagination but he knows his stuff. I flatly refute a Balkans origin myself because, plain and simple, the Egyptians never ventured that far to the north at any point in their dynastic history, and there's no evidence at all in the archaeological record of Neolithic Thracian influence on Egypt in its early times. I have to go by what the extant evidence reveals.

Possibly the Pyramid Texts shouldn't be parsed as closely as I'm going to here since the different translations agree so poorly that it casts them all into doubt. If you can't tell a thing from its opposite then how does any of it have meaning at all.

Frankly, I like Mercer's translation and have a lot of confidence in it. It might not be exact but it is mostly internally consistent which at least implies accuracy. I'm going to tweek this utterance by merely rearraging it slightly. Mercer said there is no punctuation so how these are arranged is largely determined by what makes sense.

Utterance 688.

2078a. To say: These four grandsons stand up for N.,
2078b. ’Ims.ti, Ḥȝpi, Dwȝ-mu.t.f, Ḳbḥ-śn.w.f,
2078c. the offspring of Horus of Letopolis.

These are the sons of Horus and grandsons of Osiris. They are usually associated with the four sides of the pyramid.

2079a. They bind a ladder for N.;
2079b. they make firm a ladder for N.
2079c. They cause N. to ascend to Khepri,
2079d. he who exists on the eastern side of the sky.

The pyramid is the ladder on which N (the dead king) ascends to heaven. Tis concept is repeated many times in the Pyramid Texts. Khepri is the morning sun who greets the new God who rises from the "Iskn of heaven" on the eastern side of the pyramid top.

2080a. Its rungs are hewn by Šśȝ;
2080b. the ropes which are on it are made solid
2080c. by means of sinews of Gȝśw.ti, the bull of heaven;

"Šśȝ" appears to be a proper noun so is probably a God. Considering the dearth of wood and lumber in ancient Egypt it would not be a stretch to assume this is the God of hewing stone from the Earth. In any case the "bull of heaven" is the machinery which provides the muscle to lift the stone and the dead king. Its sinews are the ropes, and the ropes become "solid" when water is added to the counterweights.

2080d. the uprights at its sides are fastened,
2080e. like the skin of ’Imi-wt, son of Ḥsȝ.t;

This is still the ladder being referenced. "The uprights at its sides" are the ascenders and the means to hold men in them. The simile is to assure the men they can't fall out of the skin as they are lifted to the top.

2080f. the "supporter of the Great One" is set under it by Śpḥ-wr.t.
2081a. Cause ye the ka of N. to ascend to the god;

"It" is still referencing the ladder, ie- the pyramid. "The supporter of the Great One" is the djed which supports Osiris under the ladder.

2081b. lead ye him to the two lions; cause him to ascend to Atum.
2082a. Atum has done that which he said he would do for N.,
2082b. (for) he binds the ladder for him, he makes the ladder firm for N.
2082c. (Thus) N. is removed from the horror of mankind;
2082d. the arms of N. are not a horror to the gods...

I just like these last five lines.

thanks k

i see no discussion on the first funerary mask in egypt. is there some somewhere?

that is so cool, my dad has one that looks like that, he said he got it from guatemala.. are there pyramids in guatemala?

i err'd

http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/hierakonpolis/
http://www.archaeology.org/interactive/hie...s/cemetery.html
je m'excuse

on reflection, it isn't strange at all that you would see that form in central america. their closest living relative tribe in eurasia makes this


http://rfaf.ru/eng/video/229

oh that?? its an internet humor i got from my sister! my dad loves it too. go here! www.chucknorrisfacts.com/