Need money? Take the Zeitgeist Challenge!

I will offer $100 transferred (through my PayPal account) to the first person here who can show that the texts concerning ancient ‘gods’ actually say the things ‘Zeitgeist the movie’ claims that they do.

All you have to do is take the various claims (that I will list below) concerning the similarities of Christ and other ancient gods that Zeitgeist makes, match them up to the text where it is claimed, and provide the specific quote and/or a link to the source, for example:

Claim made by Zeitgeist:
Horus was born on December 25th.
- Here you might put the title of the text or glyph that is mentioned, and the chapter and verse if applicable.
- Here quote what is literally said or why it is implied.
- Here you would provide a link to it, if applicable.

Here is a link to a good website where you can find copies of many of the ancient texts where some of these claims would be found. Sacred Texts You could, of course, also use texts any other place you find them, as long as they can be verified.

There are only two reasonable ground rules.

Obviously, you would want to make sure the texts you quote from are valid, in that they are reasonably demonstrable to have been written before the time of Christ, only because the attempt by Zeitgeist is to show that the biblical story was ‘borrowed’ from earlier myths. However, obviously, in the case of the texts concerning Mithras who was said to live after Jesus, they would be written after 33(35)CE.

The other ground rule is the case of subjectivity. For instance, with a claim like “virgin birth,” it can be subjective to how one views the events. In the case of Horus, for example, one would argue that the artificial phallus created by Isis in the consummation of Horus would constitute a virgin birth. I will reluctantly concede that type of subjective argument to you. However, for example, if the god in question is said to be not the first product of the union of his parents then it would be, by definition, not a virgin birth unless you can otherwise show some loophole being overlooked. Basically, what I’m saying is I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, as long as you’re not trying to make 2+2=97.

The makers of Zeitgeist offer a list of sources for the claims they make, but they fail to list a single original text, besides the Bible, in defense of them. So, it probably wont help you much, but it is available here. As you can see, Zeitgeist chooses, instead, to quote modern writers, of which the primary one seems to be Gerald Massey and then, of course, Acharya S. Acharya is also thanked for being the ‘consultant’ for this section of the movie. You may consider contacting her in hopes that she may point you to where she attained the information she provided to Zeitgeist. Her books are notoriously absent of many references to her claims, so you may have to contact her directly to find out.

The following are the claims of Zeitgeist word for word:

HORUS:
Horus was born on December 25th
Born of the virgin
His birth was accompanied by a star in the east
Three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior
At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher
And at the age of 30, he was baptized and thus began his ministry
Horus had 12 disciples
Performed miracles such as healing the sick and walking on water
Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God's Anointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, After being betrayed by Typhon,
Horus was crucified,
Buried for 3 days and
Thus, resurrected.

ATTIS:
Born of the virgin
On December 25th,
Crucified,
Placed in a tomb
And after 3 days, was resurrected.

KRISHNA:
Born of the virgin
With a star in the east signaling his coming
Performed miracles with his disciples
And upon his death was resurrected.

MITHRA:
Born of a virgin
On December 25th
He had 12 disciples
And performed miracles
And upon his death was buried for 3 days
And thus resurrected
He was also referred to as "The Truth," "The Light"
Interestingly, the sacred day of worship of Mithra was Sunday.

Jesus Christ:
Born on December 25th (I just wanted to see someone try this one)

Let me be very clear, Im not looking for what people SAY it says in the ancient literature. There is an abundance of that available. I want to know where these people are getting their information because I can find no historical record of these claims myself.

But, more importantly I hope you will find that this "Christ-myther" scenario is the exact dogma of the ancient mystery schools and many secret societies � you know, the groups more or less behind the problems in parts 2 and 3 of Zeitgeist. They seem to encourage the belief system Zeitgeist is pushing, even though its primarily based on initiated writers like Plutarch and Massey and NOT on the actual writings or records of historical Egypt or any other.

To put it simply, the same groups trying to control us are also shoving their dogma down our throats and telling us the exact opposite of what is happening, i.e that the "bad guys" are trying to make us be Christians in order to control the population. Then, they point to the Catholic church as some kind of supposed representative of Christianity, even though they are obviously just a continuation of the pantheistic Roman empire, and the entity that has killed the most people who simply believed in Jesus. In addition, we dont seem to be applying the evaluation processes to this information that we would to similar information, for example, like we would to information concerning 911.v
I will pay directly to a Paypal account on the unlikely event of a winner to my challenge. So, you will need to have one set up to get the $$$.

Good Luck.
You are definitely going to need it

http://www.conspiracyclothes.com/nowhereto..._challenge.html

Moved to a more appropriate forum

From the tone of your post, you seem to beleive that christianity is an original idea. I somehow get the feeling that any evidence presented to prove that it isn't will be ignored and/or disbeleived.

C'est la vie. May your beliefs bring you comfort and peace.

The first extant record of Mitra/Mithra is in the inscribed peace treaty between Hittites and the Hurrian kingdom of the Mitanni in the area southeast of Lake Van, c. 1400 BCE. There Mitra/Mithra appears in the company of Varuna, Indra and the twin horsemen (Ashwini Twins), the Nasatyas, as the five beings invoked as witnesses and keepers of the pact, and all of whom the rulers of the Mitanni apparently worshipped.

I'd say that was long before Jesus. ( who outside of the bible hasn't been proven to exist.)

Campbell, 1964 p 256


http://lexicorient.com/e.o/mithra.htm

actually alot of the bible ( the creation stories , the flood , ect ) comes from the Sumerians written about 1000 years before the OT - when the Hebrews still worshipped multigods.

most of the clap trap people say concerning mithras comes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras

I.E. the roman mystery religion stuff. thats why I made that provision/caveat concerning it.

proving the point I made earlier.

"I will accept evidence" and then stuffing one's fingers in one's ears to block out the evidence.

typical.

I'd argue that a virgin birth is one that happens without sex being involved. I don't think it matters particularly whether it's the first or fifth child.

Wouldn't that be a parthenogenetic birth?

Technically, they both would be, wouldn't they?

The belief in Mithra existed centuries before Christ. But Mithra worship was a largely oral tradition with very little (if any) writings dating to pre-Christianity. All the information which people use to equate Jesus as a copy-cat Mithra come from sources which date centuries after the traditions of Christianity were forged. As such, we have no idea what original Mithraism pre-Christianity believed - all we have to go on is the post-Christian writings, and that could just as easily show that Mithra was influenced by Christ and not the other way around.

That is why the opening post provided a caveat, as the first of two ground rules: Obviously, you would want to make sure the texts you quote from are valid, in that they are reasonably demonstrable to have been written before the time of Christ. The fact that Mithra worship existed before Christ is not in doubt. But the form that worship took most definitely is

Studies maintained that the only area which has any historical detail with regard to the influence of Mithraism on Christianity was in the area of art. (Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies, Manchester 1971).

You could try to argue that - but since that would not address the "zeitgeist challenge", it wouldn't garner you the $100. For the record, I think you are wrong on that point, but that's neither here nor there for this thread discussion.

The Mithraic Mysteries or Mysteries of Mithras (also Mithraism) was a mystery religion practised in the Roman Empire (1st to 4th centuries AD) - taken from the site he linked. As you'll note, the topic starter specifically asked for evidence dated pre-Christianity. This is not "stuffing one's fingers in one's ears" - this is common sense. You can't argue that Jesus copied Mithra when all the evidence that says so is dated after Jesus existed. Simple as that.

I don't know anything about all those other holy type people, but I know Jesus was not born on Dec 25. That was a myth made up by the Roman Catholic Church way back when they invented Christmas as an aid to lure in pagans, since the pagans celebrated the winter solstice about that time. That's where the evergreen tree thing comes from, along with a whole slew of other xmassy stuff. Nothing about Dec 25 or xmas has anything to do with Jesus in reality. Won't that just burst alot of peoples bubbles. But it can be researched - it is true. According to the bible, the wherabouts of the shepherds in the hills, and the fact that they were hanging about with their sheep, which was the time when Jesus was born, shows that it must have been middle-late fall (and some say or early spring) would have been a more accurate time when Jesus was born.

Amen .

And you call it all clap trap....because??

Have you got actual evidence that either story is incorrect or correct?? if so..present it

and the beginning of this topic is insulting...NEED MONEY?? <--wtf?? you need a clue on how to strike up a better intro

thanks for the clarification Paranoid Android.


This really is the dogma of the high degrees.

<a href="http://oneheartbooks.com/resources/audios/...ery_babylon.htm" target="_blank">http://oneheartbooks.com/resources/audios/...ery_babylon.htm</a>

and most of the people selling it to you are initiated themselves take Tsarion for instance

<a href="http://illusionsforum.net/phpbb3/viewtopic...?f=45&t=998" target="_blank">http://illusionsforum.net/phpbb3/viewtopic...?f=45&t=998</a>


this is probably the main reason Bill cooper was targeted and killed, he was telling us they were going to do just this, using the same old stuff from plutarch etc.
he would be freaking jumping up and down screaming at us for not checking these facts. and for some reason you guys are still acting like someone blasphemed the holiest movie on the f-ing planet. If Im right then we are playing right in the hands of an agenda we dont even believe exists. (it really is a kick ass plan)

Please look into this, I am basically begging you and I have been for awhile now, I figured if I put my money where my mouth was I might be able to shake someone into thinking objectively about this for once, because no matter how hard I try people will always say "everyone knows horus and jesus did all the same things" and then send me a link to a google search with "horus" and "jesus" in th search bar saying "there you go dumbass" Please everyone just suspend disbelief for an hour or so abd check this out.

as for the virgin birth thing..thats fine you can have that too, That is, whether the mother was a dictionary "Virgin" as the movie implies or if the particular god was born to a woman without having sex. this might give you a few more but there is a LONG way to go.

Dude...you call other written text a load of clap trap..so what the flying fart makes YOUR link of info any different than the so called clap trap in the wiki??

worse than a fundi?? LMAO yea that would be right if I were as cockey to offer people money and speak down to them like they NEED IT ......and speak hate in volumes...yea then I would be worse than a fundie

You are in fact a christian, so this whole show you have put on was through a biased view...

When you read up on other ancient religious Gods..a lot of the ancient texts where destroyed...but destroyed by WHO??

I read through some of your previous posts and picked up how you strike me as a christian (remember I said STRIKE ME AS ONE not saying you are )..and you are one of many that have offered money lol and layed it on thick...to put up a challenge

OK then I challenge you...to prove to me that Jesus christ was the only messiah born of a virgin <---------------I want proof..and not from a bible

I believe the 1st ever God..came from the greeks...even in your bible it reads - I am the Alpha and the Omega (meaning the beginning and the end in GREEK) but thats not WHY I believe in it...

Nothing that says for sure Jesus was actually born on DEC 25th...come to think of it no REAL evidence says he actually existed...so where are you going with this>>

its the 2nd thread you have made on the SAME issue

So you saw a movie..and what?

Look at what wiki says about the movie http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...amp;action=edit yea deleted ...so how do wee all know for sure who actually copied WHO in terms of a son of a virgin...died for sins??? all we have is text and thats not much to go on is it??

I dont believe for a sec that christianity has spoken with true facts about anything

sigh

you acting like you busted me being a Christian. You are quite the sleuth Beckys_Mom

Its real simple, you might find this hard to believe but there is no religious requirement to checking facts.

let me ask a hypothetical question If I made a claim about your beliefs (looking at the forum in your signature I would guess some variation of neo-paganism?) let say I made a claim about the origins of it (whatever it is.) and you, being well researched in the area, knew that what I was saying was clap trap, so you wrote me and said 'umm excuse me your wrong as hell, there is absolutely no evidence to support what you just claimed'. and I said to you 'what like Im supposed to believe a pagan? of course you would deny it, get out of my face.' you said 'but wait its not about my belief system its either there or its not, here are some links to validate it.'.

are you getting the picture?

btw even though my claim has nothing to do with whether jesus was real or not and everything to do with people putting out a movie with a ton of provably wrong stuff to advance at the very least their own dogma. I will still post the following link.

I chose this link because it give a ton of time to the skeptic point of view and approaches it very professionally
<a href="http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_historicity.html" target="_blank">http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_historicity.html</a>

Nope. Virginity is lost once the person has experienced sexual intercourse (that's the definition of virgin click) . So, any births after the first experience of sexual intercourse which did not require a male participant would be parthenogenetic, but not virginal (and they would be miraculous if the offspring was not female).

If you are christian then its NO WONDER you are stressing on this nonsense

you have no real evidence to back anything up

You cannot prove ANY number of saviors or sons of God existed....and I can bet you anything you like luvie..that you CANT...no one can

so carry on stressing lol

The burden of proof is not on me. I didnt make the movie.
I have in this forum presented evidence to suggest that this movie is basing what it says on recent and initiated authors and not on historical evidence, the ball is now in their court (or yours as true believers or just someone who wants a hundie)

In fact one could argure that I am practically begging someone to show me the money on this, I have even offered to show them the money in return if they can only do what you seem to think is so easy anyone could do it (except a Christian of course,) I cant be any more clear.

Not technically.
Virgin;
# A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse.
# A chaste or unmarried woman; a maiden.
# An unmarried woman who has taken religious vows of chastity.

So, a woman can have sex, but if she is unmarried she is seen as a virgin.

You have to remember that the meaning of words can change in a decade, never mind thousands of years.

Actually since you were cockey enough to make a thread or two on it and offering cash to anyone to prove you wrong..then YES the burden of proof is on YOU..you made the threads you stress on it..now its high time you put up or shut up..

Present actual non biased proof that any one of these saviors/ sons of God..actually existed?? come on then!!!

1 - you can't prove a negative. How is it even possible to begin to prove a claim such as this?

2 - And even if you could, I don't think anyone has tried to claim such (at least, not in this thread). There have been virgin births in other saviour stories, and no one has tried to claim otherwise. The question being raised in this thread though is more encompassing than one similarity. It is addressing all the claims made about Jesus in the Zeitgeist movie. For example, Horus may have been born by a virgin if you take the view that Isis' manufactured phallus was not a real sexual encounter. For the sake of the challenge in this thread, that has been accepted as a "virgin birth". But there are 13 claims made about Horus in this film, of which the virgin birth was only one. The question being asked is "where is the textual references for the other twelve claims"? And then there are the claims made about those other gods (Attis, Krishna, Mithras). That is what is being asked in this thread.

3 - Why are you trying to turn this into a thread about Christianity?

P.S - for the record, I completely agree with the thread starter. While I would not have literally started a "zeitgeist challenge", nor confronted people the way this person has, it is a FACT that Massey, Acharya, Graves et al are all universally condemned as untrustworthy within the scholarly community (from secular as well as religious). And it is these scholars on which Zeitgeist have based the majority of their research on. In short, the mass of similarities between Christ and other saviour-gods provided by these people are simply not backed up by historical sources.

Sorry to butt in to your argument with Conspiracy clothes, but as I can see, he's not actually tried to prove that any of them actually existed, so there is no "burden of proof" on him in any way. He's only examining the claims made about the similarities between Jesus and other saviour gods and asking for the textual proof of these similarities. So far, no one has actually tried to find that textual support. Primarily, I think that is because most of us here are not archaeologists and historians, and so wouldn't even know where to begin looking. But I would also not hesitate to say that even those who would know where to look would not find the sources for many of the claims made, for the simple reason that they don't exist.

I can see that this concept isnt sinking in over there.

when I make a thread saying Ill give a crisp hundie to anyone who can prove Zeitgeists claims note not mine
then the burden of prove I.E. in order to get shiny money would be, in fact in the hands of the person wanting to take the challenge.

why dont you do it? Ill stick another $50 on there just for you.

EDIT thanks PA

I asked HIM not you and he has stressed so much on the comparisons with what the Zeitgeist texts and so forth ..comparing it all to Jesus..
He was being cokey with the $100 posting up pal pal ..for anyone to come forward with evidence

So I have a RIGHT to ask him to come forward with any non biased evidence that ANY ONE of them ( not just christs PA although somehow you got confused when i said prove ANY SAVIOR with just christianity...your following statement shows this...watch and see)


Who said I was PA?? I said and I repeat PROVE THAT ANY SAVIOR or SON OF GOD??? <--uhhhhhhhhh PA that means ANY ONE of them...not just christ, s please dont try and just stick with christianity

Besides it all leads back to christianity in the end...Jesus is mentioned so brave and so often...I think you are just sore because I put up a much broader challenge at the OP ...and its more or less stating how Christianity is the ONLY original savior and the rest are hogwash!! which is WHY you agree...again so biased


YES PA I would be very much surprised if you DISAGREED with the OP ..LOL come on...as if??!! ...it would be k ike me saying - I agree with a thread that claims GOD doesnt need a christian label . ..WELL D'UH BM tell us something we DON'T know...cuz its stating the bleeding obvious!! ...thats what you have just..............done!!

Texts get tampered with and destroyed...christianity is just one prime example on how so much corruption can go on

What, that your Christ was the one and only savior?? How so?? you gave a biased argument and you want what now???


But be....cause YOU and only YOU decided to make this thread...then I lay the burden on to you...cuz to sum up what you are stressing over, you are claiming all of these claims are FALSE

So I ask you to lay me REAL NON BIASED EVIDENCE..that either one of them, including every last savior mentioned born of a virgin blah ...I want you to prove to me...that all existed..this includes your very own Jesus...now for the 3rd time...please make with the actual evidence / proof


Cuz I dont believe God ever sent a son down to earth to be born of a virgin to save us and so on...I don't and WONT believe in it..therefore I have no burden...you on the other hand HAVE no quit stalling keep your doe, I think you will be needing more so then I!!!


Yea for his help, cuz it was needed LOL

Lets see if you can get through this on your own though.....i'll bet you anything you will need to be backed up by christians on this LOL ...you cant face my posts on your own..m sure your PM box is flooded by now

I lay the burden of proof on to him ...because once again..to be able to claim they are FALSE you must believe ONE of them actually existed...he layed on a cash award ( $100 which is like 50 quid to me and not worth thinking of lol) ...but he did this because he believes that onbly ONE was correct and its the same one you believe in................hence the real reason as to WHY you are helping him and WHY you have butted in TWICE to back him up


I dont need help from anyone...but Conspiracy does by the looks of it...how quaint which is WHY he THANKED you..his fellow christian...

But wasent the Roman Solider Panthera the main contender for pregnating Mary thus producing Jesus.

definition of chaste

It used to be that unmarried women were by and large also virgins. The definition in the dictionary has not caught up to the fact that this is no longer true. So, sorry Chok, but yes, technically a virgin is one who has not had sexual intercourse.

As I said, I personally wouldn't have been as confrontational as this person was, but that's just differences.

Why? Why is it your right to try and hijack this thread away from what the topic starter intended????? I don't think you really know what this thread is about, BM.

Your continued insistence that Conspiracy Clothes prove Jesus was real. Conspiracy Clothes has never stated such, not in this thread at least. All he has asked for is the ancient evidence that shows Jesus was a copy of other saviours (as per the claims of Zeitgeist).

Sore? I have no emotional involvement in this at all. But you are completely WRONG - this thread is not "more or less stating how Chrisitanity is the only original saviour and the rest are hogwash". All it is asking for is..... wait for it....... the ancient evidence that shows where Horus had a virgin birth, or Horus had 12 disciples, or where Horus is referred to in ancient texts as "Lamb of God" or "light of the world", where Horus is said to have died and 3 days later rose again. These are all claims made by the Zeitgeist film, and all that is being asked for is the ancient evidence that actually supports this.

And I must note that no one has yet tried to take him up on that challenge. All they have done is jump up and down and scream that Jesus can't be real, when no one has claimed this. The existence of Jesus is not being questioned in this thread. Nor is the idea of Jesus being the "only real saviour". What is being disputed is the evidence provided by Zeitgeist to say that Jesus was a copycat of all those other gods. Zeitgeist made some claims that Jesus was a copycat and provided specific examples of why he was. The topic starter is simply asking for the evidence of where this comes from.

Anything else is just you interpreting.

You don't know what this thread is about, do you, BM. This is nothing like you agreeing with a thread that claimed God doesn't need a Christian label. That would imply this thread was about personal belief. This thread is about evidence for Jesus being a copycat. Until you understand that, we aren't going to get anywhere, I don't think.

What does this have to do with it? Are you trying to claim that the reason why there is no ancient evidence to show the claims of the video is that the Christians destroyed it all. Or are you trying to claim something else. My apologies but you have just lost me completely with this one.

~ Regards, PA

you owe me 100 bucks.

He isn't claiming they are false, or that one is true. He is only asking for evidence that Jesus is a copycat, as per the claims of Zeitgeist. Zeitgeist claims Jesus was a copycat of Horus, Mithra, Krishna, Attis. All that is being asked for is the evidence for this. Not having the evidence to back this up will not prove any of them right or wrong. It will just show that the evidence provided by Zeitgeist is flawed. Unless the evidence is there, in which case this thread is asking that you bring that information up.

I think you need more help than you think, because quite frankly I don't think you know what this thread is truly about. I am posting to try and help you understand what this thread is about because from everything I have read you have completely missed the point. It has nothing to do with me helping out a fellow Christian.

As you quoted:

The first extant record of Mitra/Mithra is in the inscribed peace treaty between Hittites and the Hurrian kingdom of the Mitanni in the area southeast of Lake Van, c. 1400 BCE. There Mitra/Mithra appears in the company of Varuna, Indra and the twin horsemen (Ashwini Twins), the Nasatyas, as the five beings invoked as witnesses and keepers of the pact, and all of whom the rulers of the Mitanni apparently worshipped.

What does this prove? It only proves that Mithra worship existed in 1400BC. It says nothing about the nature of Mithra worship. However, Zeitgeist makes the following claims about Mithra:



What does this quote of yours show about any of these seven points? Nothing, that's what.

The only evidence that you will find to back these points up are dated post-Christianity, which does not in any way show that Jesus copied Mithra. What you need to do in this challenge is to find a document dated pre-Christianity that shows that Mithra was born of a virgin, was born on the winter solstice, had 12 disciples, performed miracles, was buried for three days, resurrected, and was given the titles of "the Truth" and "The Light".

I can assure you, that $100 will remain quite safe, simply because the evidence does not exist. Not for Mithra, not for Horus, not for any of them.

yet there is no proof that Jesus existed . what some claim as proof ( Josephus and one or 2 others - out of about 80 at the time who said not one word ) most educated scholars agreed it was post dated work - written long after the story was out there to help give it validity.

the fact that the bible , and Jesus's life so reflect other messiahs, saviours ,mythical beings , other religious icons . Did as they did ( miracles ) heck during the time Jesus was to have lived the place was crawling with similar prophets , Jesus could be an amalgamation of all them with a bit of older religions thrown in.

the fact that the creation story from the bible is not unique and the Sumerians have a 7 day creation story that predates the bible by 1000 years should give one pause.

there is more proof that the story of jesus was lifted by plying other beliefs than he ever existed. Just another religion growing off the backs of other religions. It doesn't make it any more true than any of them.

And that bears absolutely no relevance to this thread discussion. As I stated somewhere in this thread, proving the claims of Zeitgeist wrong will not by default prove Christianity right. No one has claimed that. What is being disputed is the claims made that Jesus was a copycat. Zeitgeist makes a list of similarities between the various gods, this thread is simply asking for the textual proof of those similarities. There are plenty of "prove Jesus is the Messiah" threads around. This is not one of them, which is why I asked BM, and now asking you "Why are you trying to turn this into a debate about Christianity"?

You mean like the similarities suggested in Zeitgeist? Perfect - all you need to do is show the ancient documents that show this. That is what this thread is asking for. Evidence to back up the claim.

Then show that proof, my dear fellow. That is what this thread is asking for. The ancient proofs that show the claims made in Zeitgeist are true.

Lt. Ripley, though I tend to lean toward your explanation, where is the proof? Why doesn't someone produce evidence of this supposedly abundant truth?

the myths of all these other saviours , messiahs , ect............ are written. all you have to do is look them up , go to the library. I'm not saying those others were real.

but there is no proof jesus was real either. And with all the written verse about all the gods, saviours ect ... that came before jesus - and seeing how the life written of jesus reflects those earlier beliefs . , it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand how the story of jesus was born on the backs of earlier religions.

The Schøyen Collection is a unique gift to everyone fascinated by the mystery that lies at the origins of religions and cultures. As far as is known, this is the only public or private collection, library, or museum world-wide, that actually has made an attempt to form a collection of the various living and extinct religions of the world, and over a period of time nearly as far back as religion itself. This treasure offers us a bridge between the ancient past and the distant future. As it widens our knowledge of ancient cultures, societies and individual life, it enhances our understanding of contemporary expressions of faiths.


MS in Neo Sumerian on clay, Babylonia, 1900-1700 BC, 1 tablet, 24x10x4 cm, 3+3 columns, 208 lines (of 410) in cuneiform script.

Context: This is tablet 1 of 2. Tablet 2 is MS 3282.

Commentary: There are similarities to the Greek myth of Persephone who was abdicted to the underworld by Hades, and released to see her mother, Demeter. The text also has parallels to the passion and resurrection in the Gospels.

See also MS 5283 with the story of Orpheus and Euridice.




<a href="http://www.schoyencollection.com/religions.htm" target="_blank">http://www.schoyencollection.com/religions.htm</a>


ps - In his book “The Book Your Church” Shmuel Golding, states that “I Cor. 10:4” is taken directly from the religious text of the follower of Mithra "Paul says, 'They drank from that spiritual rock and that rock was Christ' except that the name Mithra was used instead of Christ.
Vatican hill in Rome that is so highly regarded as sacred to Peter, the Christian rock, was already sacred to Mithra. Maybe that is why there are so few texts about Mithra. They were destroyed by the builders of the new religion."

Hi Lt Ripley,

I'm going to quote the claims made by Zeitgeist again, for a little context:



This thread is asking for the ancient textual evidence that shows these claims are true. So far, no one has done so. By your claim: the myths of all these other saviours , messiahs , ect............ are written. all you have to do is look them up , go to the library. I must say I have done a bit of reading. For Horus, I can say that:

~ His "virgin birth" was the result of a sexual encounter between Osiris and Isis. Osiris had been chopped up into pieces by Seth and strewn across the world. Isis went and found every piece, except the phallus. And so Isis fashioned a clay phallus, which Osiris used as a substitute to impregnate her. For the purposes of this challenge the thread starter has already agreed that he will concede this as a virgin birth.
~ I found no mention of 12 disciples (though there was reference to an unknown number of them in some stories)
~ I can't say I remember any mention of a baptism
~ No reference to him being called "The Good Shepherd" or "Light of the World", and perhaps none of the others.
~ There is no mention of Horus dying, period. Therefore no death, no crucifixion.
~ As Horus worship evolved, it became merged with Ra-worship, and thus being associated with the sun, Horus was said to die and resurrect every morning and evening. So there was no "3 days" in the ground, and his "resurrection" bears no similarity to Jesus' one.

Of the rest (child-teacher, 3 kings, etc), I can say I am not sure - I haven't had a chance to look specifically for that. But of what I have written above, if there is ANY proof whatsoever to dispute what I have just stated from ancient sources, then please - bring it. Afterall, that is the point of this thread.

Just noticed your edit. I got my last post in before you edited your post. Thanks for the link - I'll have a look through it. As for the religious text of the followers of Mithra, I wonder - when was it written? Mithra worship was an oral tradition. They had no religious text, indeed there were no writings of Mithra at all - until AFTER the rise of Christianity. So if this religious text does quote 1 Corinthians, it is just as likely that Mithra followers copied it from the Bible, not the other way around.

Persephone is allowed to come up from hades to see her mother.... um ok.
I would contend that it doesn't actually sound to similar but its not really worth it considering it has nothing to do with this, and neither Persephone nor Demeter were mentioned in zeitgeist.

but your next point is great.





First the book is called "the book your church [doesn't want you to read]" and its by Tim Leedom not Shmuel Golding, and this was brought forward by the exact person who "consulted" to Zeitgeist, remember Acharya S. from the original post? and the guy who said it (whoever that is) doesn't point anyone to the place he found this gem either so I guess we will one again have to take Acharya's word for it. here is a few interesting point about this:



http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html

*sarcasm on* But don't you see, CC, this is nothing more than Christian apologetic crap. Don't worry that no one can actually find the Mithraic texts being referred to by Acharya, or that Acharya has been dismissed by almost all serious scholars, we'll just ignore this because it is a Christian website and therefore cannot be trusted. *sarcasm off*

Seriously, CC - thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of that. I know that there are Mithraic writings out there, but none of it dates pre-Christianity. Mithraism was entirely an oral tradition.

not true. the earliest text of Mithra ? long before the story of Jesus.

The Avestan Hymn to Mithra, written in the fifth century BC, is the one extensive, ancient literary record of the attributes, companions and cult of the Iranian god whose worship spread, five or six centuries later, as far as Britain. Dr Gershevitch here reproduces Geldner’s text and critical apparatus of the Hymn, adding his own introduction, translation and commentary. The introduction offers an orientation on the main problems concerning Mithra: how the god came to be included in the Zoroastrian religious system, his relation to Zarathustra’s god Ahura Mazdah, his functions, his development from the stage at which the Indian Mitra is found in the Rig Veda, and the extent to which the Western Mithras has preserved the characteristics of the Avestan Mithra. The text is faced by the English translation, and is followed by Dr Gershevitch’s exhaustive commentary.

<a href="http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521052262" target="_blank">http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/cata...isbn=0521052262</a>



no it wasn't just oral. and no , the only scholars that dismiss it are those in the like of the religious right that can't remain neutral and just see the evidence as it is. Those who get upset if it goes against the grain of thier beliefs.

Can you provide me with some evidence of this FACT. Only because I did search for it and couldn't find that Massey was universally condemned by the scholarly community. And to be completely honest I would have expected to find quite a bit, just because after a century of scientific study most amateurs works have been thoroughly repudiated.

hhmmm that would be like say a document , outside of the bible and not found to be post dated like Josephus or forged , that is evidence that Jesus existed ? of which there isn't ?

(Flavius Josephus: He was a Jewish historian who was born in 37 CE. In his book, Antiquities of the Jews, he described Jesus' as a wise man who was crucified by Pilate. Most historians believe that the paragraph in which he describes Jesus is partly or completely a forgery that was inserted into the text by an unknown Christian. The passage "appears out of context, thereby breaking the flow of the narrative )

for a guy , killed for being the king of the jews . as much as the parasees grumbled about him, as much trouble as he caused none of the multitude of historians known in the area at the time could write anything ? He would have been big news !!!! yet it's quiet.

how about this - you show me proof jesus existed that the majority of scholors agree on and NOT from a christian leaning site but a neutral historical site ?

and conspiracy clothes -
the souce of Tecton -building blocks for christian faith ? seriously now. it's akin to running for office yet all the voters are related to you. you haven't won anything really. how about something from a education souce both upstanding and without a religious lean of any sort ?

PROOF most cant handle the truth that is why all holy facts are hidden...for now

what proof do you seek>jesus walked on water and made fish jump into boats...yes

Did you find anything? Massey has been nearly universally ignored.
I tell everyone this when this subject comes up. Go to a library, read people trained in this stuff, and see if the claims are repeated.

So presumably if I were to read this hymn of Mithra, I would find that Mithra was born of a virgin, was born on the winter solstice, had 12 disciples, performed miracles, was buried for three days and then resurrected, and referred to as "The Truth" and "The Light". I would also find that passage which you mentioned in the previous post which was from 1 Corinthians.

If this is so, then I will stand corrected in everything. Perhaps you should get that $100 dollars. If it does not deal with these issues, then it is not relevant to the Zeitgeist challenge. As I've said - Mithra worship existing before Christ is not in doubt. However, I submit that the nature which this worship took most definitely is.

Goes to show what you get when you don't proofread what you wrote. In my other posts so far in this thread, you will note that I have stated that Mithra was "primarily" an oral tradition with "very little" writing pre-Christianity. In this post I wrote "no writings pre-Christianity". My apologies. However, Mithra was largely and primarily an oral tradition

I must disagree with you totally there, Lt Ripley. The following was written by Rook Hawkins, co-founder of the Rational Respose Squad, an Atheist organisation founded to combat the claims of Theism. Even those who would benefit from Acharya's work dismiss her as useless

Now, let me clarify by saying I think Acharya is a great woman, who seems to be genuine in her desires to expose the flaws of Jesus historicists. And she is definitely a person with a quality personality. But, scholarship is not a popularity contest, despite what Bart Ehrman thinks. Scholarship is based on foundations of scientific observation and inductive reasoning that seems to be missing from the works of Acharya S (although I have yet to read her new book, with a preface by Robert M. Price, whom I think very highly of), and worse yet, her fans seem to be trolling the interwebs with intent and purpose.

*snip for brevity*

.....To go to the extremes of Acharya is not only pushing buttons, but begging for scholarship to look at one as amateurish.

Certainly, Acharya has been sloppy in her research, and her claims seem more like sensationalism than actual scholarship. Certainly she sells books, and that is good. I'm glad she is doing well for herself. We should all be so lucky. But, I will not, nor will I let others, promote such incredulous tripe as what we have seen above. There is certainly reason to be skeptical and even cautious about reading Acharya's work. It should be read carefully, with a grain of salt, and it should always be remembered that such claims need to be researched beyond her books. Certainly she misses some very powerful claims in need of citation, and even more does she need to spend more time reading the works of other historians and scholars in the field.

These are serious mistakes, and they need to be corrected.

*See Source for further reading*

Just wanted to point out that Mithra did not break time in half....Jesus Christ did. We don't view the world through the veil of Before Mithra and In the year of Mithra. In fact most have never even heard of Mithra. Interesting that practically everyone has heard of Jesus Christ....a 'myth' as many would have us believe.