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Tenkay
QUOTE (Unlimited @ Dec 9 2007, 11:01 AM) *
lets get back on topic then?...doesnt this revelation by a world leader warrant opening a new investigation?....



who's doing the investigating? you can't put government officals in prison, it's not happening UNLIMITED. Nobody will ever been convicted for it
coughymachine
QUOTE (Unlimited @ Dec 9 2007, 04:01 PM) *
lets get back on topic then?...doesnt this revelation by a world leader warrant opening a new investigation?....

I firmly believe we should already have had one, but who or what body could possibly get such an undertaking off the ground?

My belief for a long time now has been that no amount of revisiting old arguments is going to get us anywhere - indeed, I think I started a thread here to that effect, arguing that, if 9/11 was an inside job, then we need whistle-blowers to come out and say so if we're ever going to make any progress. Thus I see the former Italian PM's comments as a possible catalyst. What's needed is for this to be widely disseminated by activists in the hope that others with inside knowledge might come forward.
Lovelynice
QUOTE (coughymachine @ Dec 10 2007, 12:25 AM) *
I didn't offer an 'excuse', just an alternative option to consider. For some reason, you've latched on to this issue and seem to have attached a disproportionate level of importance to it.

The topic of this thread, which was the comment made by the former Italian PM, and the sub-topic about the overall nature of al Qaeda and the comparison of it with Operation Gladio, is far more interesting and important than a rehash of whether the video shows the real bin Laden or an actor.



1) You're using Ad Hominem - fact is, I haven't "latched on" or placed "disproportionate" importance to it all. I was just pointing out very clearly that the Muckraker's claim about aspect ratios doesn't seem to be supportable. They didn't say what the error in ratio was, so where's the evidence really that we can confirm what they say?

2) I'm quite aware of the thread subject is, however, the detail of the faked Osama bin Laden videos came up, and it is actually an important one in the context of Operation Gladio and whether similar policies are being followed in recent years against Islam and Arabs, instead of the old "blame-the-communists" golal of Operation Gladio. I just don't like finicky details haning around.
Lovelynice
QUOTE (Tenkay @ Dec 10 2007, 01:28 AM) *
who's doing the investigating? you can't put government officals in prison, it's not happening UNLIMITED. Nobody will ever been convicted for it



Depends on how angry people get. If enough people get angry enough, if enough evidence comes out, and the bricks start to fall in the wall of silence as some insiders choose to jump ship and tell all in exchange for some mercy, there will be government officials in prison. It's happened before with major scandals, it'll happen again.
coughymachine
QUOTE (Lovelynice @ Dec 10 2007, 09:52 AM) *
1) You're using Ad Hominem...

Oh boo hoo. If this is true, then you used an ad hom against me by suggesting I was offering an excuse. Big deal.

I maintain that, in the context of this thread, and when there are extant threads dealing specifically with the 'fat' video, this issue has now acquired a disporportionate level of importance.

The subject of the so-called 'fat' bin Laden video remains unresolved in my opinion - I'm not asserting any particular view. However, let me repeat, I believe - and have done for a very long time - that bin Laden and others are being stage managed in a Goldsteinesque manner by elements within the US.

So, what's your opinion about the comments made by the former Italian PM?
Lovelynice
QUOTE (coughymachine @ Dec 10 2007, 08:00 PM) *
So, what's your opinion about the comments made by the former Italian PM?


The problem is that he is just another politician when you really get down to the basic facts. Politicians rarely say anything in public that they don't plan to gain some benefit from. People in general don't trust them so much, because we all know how fluid a politician's loyalties are. However, while it would seem that he knows a lot from sources while in government, it's not necessarily true that he gained the information while in government.]

The 9/11 Truth Movement crows about what he says, but he's not well known in the English speaking world to most people in the USA, UK, or wherever... so his words don't carry enough clout.
coughymachine
QUOTE (Lovelynice @ Dec 11 2007, 08:39 AM) *
The 9/11 Truth Movement crows about what he says, but he's not well known in the English speaking world to most people in the USA, UK, or wherever... so his words don't carry enough clout.

I agree. As I said in the OP, right now it's just the opinion of a guy without any evidence to back it up.

What makes it particularly interesting to me, however, is the he was the one who first revealed the existence of Operation Gladio.

This is a man who, whilst out of the frame for a while now, nonetheless understands the business of covert operations and inter-agency cooperation. Whilst he was Italy's Prime Minister, his own secret service was working hand in hand with the CIA, committing acts of domestic terrorism in Italy - bombing civilians, no less - for the sole purpose of preventing the Communists from gaining political traction both in Italy and throughout Europe.

He is, in that context, uniquely qualified to offer an educated opinion. It remains to be seen whether it can be backed up.
coughymachine
QUOTE (Q24 @ Dec 8 2007, 07:21 PM) *
The above all lead me to believe that the CIA had inside men and Osama Bin Laden was setup through being video taped and having dealings with these infiltrators. It is quite possible that Bin Laden was not even aware of the impending 9/11 operation and it may have come as quite a surprise to him when he realised the ‘jihadists’ who had been working under him, had carried out the attacks.

To pick up on this line of inquiry. I've no more to add about al Qaeda right now, but this old but nonetheless interesting article is well worth a read.

Source: Online Journal

QUOTE
Who is behind "Al Qaeda in Iraq"? Pentagon acknowledges fabricating a "Zarqawi Legend"

By Michel Chossudovsky

Apr 21, 2006, 01:03



Abu Musab Al Zarqawi has been presented both by the Bush administration and the Western media as the mastermind behind the "insurgency" in Iraq, allegedly responsible for the massacres of Iraqi civilians.

Zarqawi is the outside enemy of America. The Bush administration in official statements, including presidential speeches, national security documents, etc. has repeatedly pointed to the need to "go after" Abu Musab Al Zarqawi and Osama bin Laden.

QUOTE
"You know, I hate to predict violence, but I just understand the nature of the killers. This guy, Zarqawi, an al Qaeda associate -- who was in Baghdad, by the way, prior to the removal of Saddam Hussein -- is still at large in Iraq. And as you might remember, part of his operational plan was to sow violence and discord amongst the various groups in Iraq by cold- blooded killing. And we need to help find Zarqawi so that the people of Iraq can have a more bright -- bright future." (George W. Bush, Press Conference, 1 June 2004)


The official mandate of US and British occupation forces is to fight and win the "war on terrorism" on behalf of the Iraqi people. Zarqawi constitutes Washington's justification for the continued military occupation of Iraq, not to mention the brutal siege of densely populated urban areas directed against "Al Qaeda in Iraq" which is said to be led by Zarqawi.

Coalition forces are upheld as playing a "peace keeping role" in consultation with the United Nations. The Western media in chorus has consistently upheld the legitimacy of the "war on terrorism". It has not only presented Zarqawi as a brutal terrorist, it has also failed to report on the Pentagon's disinformation campaign, which has been known and documented since 2002.

Pentagon PSYOP Zarqawi Program

In an unusual twist, the Washington Post in a recent article, has acknowledged that the role of Zarqawi had been deliberately "magnified" by the Pentagon with a view to galvanizing public support for the US-UK led "war on terrorism":

"The Zarqawi campaign is discussed in several of the internal military documents. "Villainize Zarqawi/leverage xenophobia response," one U.S. military briefing from 2004 stated. It listed three methods: "Media operations," "Special Ops (626)" (a reference to Task Force 626, an elite U.S. military unit assigned primarily to hunt in Iraq for senior officials in Hussein's government) and "PSYOP," the U.S. military term for propaganda work . . ." (WP. 10 April 2006)

The military's propaganda program, according to the Washington Post, has "largely been aimed at Iraqis, but seems to have spilled over into the U.S. media. One briefing slide about U.S. "strategic communications" in Iraq, prepared for Army Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the top U.S. commander in Iraq, describes the "home audience" as one of six major targets of the American side of the war." (WP, op cit.)

An internal document produced by U.S. military headquarters in Iraq, states that "the Zarqawi PSYOP program is the most successful information campaign to date." (WP, op cit).

The senior commander entrusted with Pentagon's PSYOP operation is General Kimmitt who now occupies the position of senior planner at US Central Command (USCENTCOM), responsible for directing operations in Iraq and the Middle East.

QUOTE
"In 2003 and 2004, he coordinated public affairs, information operations and psychological operations in Iraq -- though he said in an interview the internal briefing must be mistaken because he did not actually run the psychological operations and could not speak for them. Kimmitt said, "There was clearly an information campaign to raise the public awareness of who Zarqawi was, primarily for the Iraqi audience but also with the international audience."

A goal of the campaign was to drive a wedge into the insurgency by emphasizing Zarqawi's terrorist acts and foreign origin, said officers familiar with the program. "Through aggressive Strategic Communications, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi now represents: Terrorism in Iraq/Foreign Fighters in Iraq/Suffering of Iraqi People (Infrastructure Attacks)/Denial of Iraqi Aspirations," the same briefing asserts . . .

It is difficult to determine how much has been spent on the Zarqawi campaign, which began two years ago and is believed to be ongoing. U.S. propaganda efforts in Iraq in 2004 cost $24 million, but that included extensive building of offices and residences for troops involved, as well as radio broadcasts and distribution of thousands of leaflets with Zarqawi's face on them, said the officer speaking on background . . .

The Zarqawi program at the Pentagon was run concurrently with a related operation "led by the Lincoln Group, a U.S. consulting firm, to place pro-U.S. articles in Iraq newspapers, according to the officer familiar with the program who spoke on background." According to The Washington Post, however, there was no relationship between the Pentagon's PSYOP program and that run by the Lincoln Group on behalf of the Pentagon. (WP, 10 April 2006)


Disinformation and war propaganda are an integral part of military planning. What the Washington Post fails to mention, however, is its own role in sustaining the Zarqawi legend , along with network TV, most of the printed press, and of course CNN and Fox News, not to mention a significant portion of the alternative media. Disinformation regarding the War on terrorism has been fed into the news chain by a limited number of "top feeders":

QUOTE
A relatively few well-connected correspondents provide the "scoops" that get the coverage in the relatively few mainstream news sources - the four TV networks, TIME, Newsweek, CNN - where the parameters of debate are set and the "official reality" is consecrated for the bottom feeders in the news chain. In other countries, this is what is known as propaganda - or, put less politely, psychological warfare. ( Chaim Kupferberg, The Propaganda Preparation for 9/11)


Zarqawi has been identified by the US media as being behind the "insurgency" in Fallujah, Tal Afar and Samara. He was held responsible for the Amman hotel bombings as well as terrorist attacks in several Western capitals.. He is indelibly behind the suicide bomb attacks in Iraq as confirmed by the Washington Post: " The ruling Shiite leadership has Zarqawi squarely in its sights. He has led the suicide bombers whose Shiite victims are now climbing into the thousands." ( 11 December 2005).

The Pentagon's PSYOP is a cover-up for US sponsored atrocities by the US media, which has upheld the "villainize Zarqawi" focus in its news and editorials coverage of the Iraqi resistance movement.

QUOTE
The top U.S. military intelligence officer in Iraq said Abu Musab Zarqawi and his foreign and Iraqi associates have essentially commandeered the insurgency, becoming the dominant opposition force and the greatest immediate threat to U.S. objectives in the country.

"I think what you really have here is an insurgency that's been hijacked by a terrorist campaign," Army Maj. Gen. Richard Zahner said in an interview. "In part, by Zarqawi becoming the face of this thing, he has certainly gotten the funding, the media and, frankly, has allowed other folks to work along in his draft." (WP, 25 September 2005)


Amid the continuing bloodshed in Iraq, there is evidence of fresh thinking. The change is, ironically, brought about by Abu Musab Zarqawi himself, whose indiscriminate terrorism appears to have succeeded in uniting people there against his global jihad ideology. Since the hotel bombings in Zarqawi's native Jordan, more and more Sunni Iraqis and Arabs have condemned the terrorist leader's nightmarish vision for their societies -- one that promises further "catastrophic" suicide attacks. (WP, 4 December 2005)

Immediate withdrawal from Iraq is not an option the U.S. administration can or should entertain. It would give Abu Musab Zarqawi and his small band of foreign fighters the opportunity to claim victory and to announce that they have successfully defeated a superpower. This would strengthen al Qaeda's hand across the Middle East and elsewhere, and lead to greater instability throughout the region. (WP, 11 December 2006)[/blockquote]

The US media has identified the nature of the insurgency, centering on the key role of Zarqawi and his ties to the former Baathist regime:

QUOTE
"The backbone of the insurgency appears to be an alliance between the die-hard Baathists and the network of terrorists mostly under the command of Abu Musab Zarqawi. It is a partnership of convenience; both groups are fighting the same battle, but for different reasons and with different goals. (WP, 8 May 2005)


[S]enior officials at the Pentagon and in Iraq say they believe that Mr. Zarqawi and the insurgency's ''center of gravity'' is now in the bends and towns of the Euphrates River valley near the Syrian border.(New York Times, 17 September 2005)

In Fallujah, the siege of the city, which resulted in thousands of civilian deaths was described as a battle against the "Zarqawi network":

QUOTE
U.S. forces have conducted four airstrikes on what have been described as targets associated with Zarqawi's network in and around the city. Among them was a housing compound in an agricultural area about 15 miles south of Fallujah where the U.S. military said as many as 90 foreign fighters were meeting. The military said the strike, which occurred on Thursday evening, killed about 60 foreign fighters.

Witnesses and hospital officials disputed the account, saying that about 30 men were killed, many of them Iraqi. They said 15 children and 11 women also died in the attack.

Neither version of the strike could be independently verified.

The following night, the U.S. military said in a statement that it conducted "another successful precision strike" on a meeting of "approximately 10 Zarqawi terrorists" in central Fallujah. "There was no indication that any innocent civilians were in the immediate vicinity of the meeting location," the military said in the statement. (WP, 21 Sept 2004)


Concluding Remarks

If indeed Zarqawi's role was fabricated as part of the Pentagon's PSYOP, what is the accuracy of these media reports?

The internal military documents leaked to Washington Post confirm that the Pentagon is involved in an ongoing propaganda campaign which seeks to provide a face to the enemy. The purpose is to portray the enemy as a terrorist, to mislead public opinion.

Counterterrorism and war propaganda are intertwined. The propaganda apparatus feeds disinformation into the news chain. The objective is to present the terror groups as "enemies of America." responsible for countless atrocities in Iraq and around the World. The underlying objective is to galvanize public opinion in support of America's Middle East war agenda.

US military-intelligence has created it own terrorist organizations. In turn, it has developed a cohesive multibillion dollar counterterrorism program "to go after" these terrorist organizations. To reach its foreign policy objectives, the images of terrorism in the Iraqi war theater must remain vivid in the minds of the citizens, who are constantly reminded of the terrorist threat. The Iraqi resistance movement is described as terrorists led by Zarqawi.

The propaganda campaign using the Western media, presents the portraits of the leaders behind the terror network. In other words, at the level of what constitutes an "advertising" campaign, "it gives a face to terror."

The "war on terrorism" rests on the creation of one or more evil bogeymen, the terror leaders, Osama bin Laden, Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, et al, whose names and photos are presented ad nauseam in daily news reports. Without Zarqawi and bin Laden, the "war on terrorism" would loose its raison d'кtre. The main casus belli is to wage a " war on terrorism".

The Pentagon documents leaked to the Washington Post regarding Zarqawi have revealed that Al Qaeda in Iraq is fabricated.

The suicide attacks in Iraq are indeed real, but who is behind them? There are indications that some of the suicide attacks could have been organized by the US-UK military and intelligence. (See references below pertaining to the British Special Forces Soldiers, caught planting bombs in Basra.)
coughymachine
Sceptics argue that, if, as Francesco Cossiga claims, the fact that 9/11 was an inside job was widely known among the global intelligence communiy, why have none of them spilt the beans. The answer may lie in the following article, which shows that countries doing battle with their own terror-related issues have actually benefitted from the US-launched Global War on Terrorism. It has given them the cover needed to either carry on or even accelerate their own domestic programmes aimed at curbing insurgents. In the case of Egypt below, it has even given some sort of legitimacy to what would otherwise be unacceptable practices.


Source: Middle East Online

QUOTE
Negar Azimi offers insight on the real repercussions of George Bush's perpetual war-as-foreign policy in Hosni Mubarak’s Egypt.

There's a story that when the news arrived that airplanes had flown into the World Trade Center, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak turned to one of his aides and said, "My job just got a little bit easier." Throughout the 1980s and '90s, Egypt fought its own nasty, brutish "war on terror." As militant groups -- Gama'a Islamiya and Islamic Jihad most prominent among them -- orchestrated attacks on government officials, members of the country's Coptic minority and even foreign tourists, thousands of people were locked up incommunicado in crackdowns across the country. Most of the detained were tortured; others simply disappeared. At the height of the dirty war, some 30,000 suspected militants -- or at least those unlucky enough to be regarded as such -- had been whisked away to Egypt's famously inhospitable prisons. Enter 9/11 and the vaguely defined "war on terror" it inspired. Here was the perfect opportunity for Mubarak -- by then a semibionic man entering his third decade of rule -- to summon up his trusty narrative about fighting terror at all costs, especially in justifying his exceptional powers, not to mention his government's growing crackdowns on its own citizens.

Suddenly the sort of arbitrary detention, trials on flimsy evidence, torture and trampling of freedom of expression and assembly that had long been de rigueur in Egypt found a home under the banner of a global war on terror. When the Americans were in need of an ally in executing their extraordinary-rendition program, Egypt handily stepped up to the plate -- quickly becoming one of the favored recipients of the unlucky Abu Omars of the world. Mubarak, in the meantime, continued to cooperate with the United States on security issues and maintained Egypt's fraught diplomatic ties with Israel. The country was, in turn, ensured its sustained bounty of military aid ($1.3 billion for 2008 alone) -- and a blind eye was cast on its dismal human rights record.

Today, Mubarak's squeeze on civil liberties seems only to be growing tighter. The country's very own Patriot Act, in the form of an "emergency law" (this is the sort of emergency that knows no end; Egyptians have lived under its aegis continuously since 1981), was renewed in 2006 despite Mubarak's repeated promises to do away with it. A series of thirty-four cumbersome constitutional amendments hastily pushed through in March 2006 further cut into civil liberties. Among them, Article 179 places unprecedented restrictions on the right to privacy and due process, and gives the government sanction to use exceptional courts in trying terrorism suspects. While Nabil Fahmy, Egypt's smooth-talking ambassador to the United States, has indicated that a new terrorism bill will "provide for the necessary checks and safeguards on the use of executive power in fighting terrorism," the law is more than likely to be the same old emergency law in a new guise. Tellingly, the USA Patriot Act and Britain's Anti-Terrorism Law have been cited in Egyptian parliamentary discussions surrounding the bill. They have theirs, too -- or so the logic ran.

When bombs went off in Egypt's stark Sinai Peninsula in 2004, 2005 and again in 2006, the state strained to frame the attacks as acts of foreign machination, even though most signs pointed to the operations being homegrown (Sinai's population has long been marginalized by the state, and the territory is thickly littered with gripes). In the bombings' wake, thousands have been arrested, and thus far three men have been sentenced to death for the 2004 bombings at the Red Sea resort town of Taba. Local human rights activists have pointed to questionable evidence, irregular trial proceedings and allegations of torture in eliciting "confessions" from the three. Even more recently, there have been indications that the state security forces may have gone as far as to fabricate incidents of terrorism to justify arrests. According to a new Human Rights Watch report, authorities have used trumped-up terrorism charges to clamp down on suspected Islamists, including resorting to arbitrary detention and torture to elicit false confessions in one 2006 case involving twenty-two detainees, referred to as the Victorious Sect.

And in recent months, the state has further turned up the heat on its enemies and civil society -- particularly with the question of succession uncomfortably lingering (who will succeed the 79-year-old Mubarak?) and indications of growing opposition to Mubarak's rule. The Muslim Brotherhood has taken the lion's share of the pressure, with its highest-ranking leaders in and out of prison, while thirty-three members face trial in a military tribunal for membership in a banned organization and allegedly providing students with weapons and military training. Increasingly, the state has been monitoring the Brotherhood's financial doings. The state-run press frequently intimates that it is linked to international terrorist networks.

Torture continues to be rampant -- of alleged Islamists, of democracy and labor activists, of bloggers and journalists. Authorities have shut down two NGOs in recent months, one that worked on torture cases and another on labor rights. The former, the Association for Human Rights Legal Aid, had been involved in the first-ever lawsuit against a state security officer for torture. And at least ten journalists have been sentenced for various publishing offenses in the past months. Egyptian civil society has plainly seen better times.

Where are Egypt's American patrons, who for one brief moment called for reform, having occasionally leveraged their power in pushing for modest, if not merely symbolic, political openings? In a 2005 interview with ABC News on the eve of the country's first multiparty presidential election, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice announced that Mubarak had "opened the door" to reform. But this past June, when George W. Bush voiced his concern for the fate of Ayman Nour, an opposition leader locked up on politically motivated charges, Egyptian foreign minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit accused the American leader of "unacceptable" meddling in his country's affairs. The token gesture had been made, and it was back to business as usual. A Congressional foreign aid bill that would withhold $200 million in US military funds for Egypt -- based on its human rights abuses as well as its failure to monitor weapons-smuggling into Gaza effectively -- has shown little momentum since it passed the House this past summer.

And then came the news, in late July, that the United States had engineered a ten-year, multibillion-dollar arms package for Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states, Israel and Egypt. Ostensibly designed to counter growing Iranian influence in the region, the generous deal was described by the Secretary of State as part of a "renewed commitment to the security of our key strategic partners in the region." It seemed that the business of the "global war on terror" and, by extension, of cultivating friendly autocratic regimes had once again trumped reform. Egypt's door, once showing signs of cracking open, had slammed firmly shut. Somewhere, Hosni Mubarak was smiling.
Unlimited
compartmentalization....noone knows exactly what they're doing in the plan....only the masterminds inside the CIA and mossad know the truth...trust me CIA agents are good at keeping secrets....thats what they do...
coughymachine
QUOTE (Unlimited @ Dec 18 2007, 12:55 PM) *
compartmentalization....noone knows exactly what they're doing in the plan....only the masterminds inside the CIA and mossad know the truth...trust me CIA agents are good at keeping secrets....thats what they do...

Sure, I understand this is how each individual intelligence agency limits its risk; what I'm talking about here is why the plot wasn't revealed by a foreign intelligence agency, if they all knew about it as Cossiga claimed. The answer here might just be because, regardless of how they felt about the attacks themselves, they all benefitted from the fallout.
coughymachine
Here's an interesting and short video, which begins with a group of young Pakistanis being interviewed about Bin Laden. They have some interesting views, not least the notion that he is a creation of the US.
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