Basically, why do so many people dislike and/or fear them? This seems particularily to be true in the States, but is a global phenomenon.

Do religious people think atheists are evil and immoral or something? This seems to be the case, atleast in my experience. Some say that religious people are jelous of the freedom that atheists enjoy. The main thing, however, seems to be that religious people thing atheists are trying to dismantle religion's position in society.

George Bush said "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should the be considered as patriots. This is one nation under god."

A study found that Americans feel that atheists are the group that most lack the vision of a proper American society, more so than any other religious, ethnic or other group.

Of course that's not to say that all believers dislike atheists. But what are your views on why the matter?

----------------------------

So far I've gathered:

- Immoral
- Stalin, Mao, etc.
- Selfish
- Lack of humility/pompousness
- Lack of humanity
- No proof for atheism
- Religious duty to hate atheists
- Atheists make fun of religion
- Atheists exaggerating dislike towards them
- Atheists not burdened by commitment
- Atheists trying to convert religious people
- Atheists are "outsiders"
- Generalizations/prejudice: disliking all atheists due to the actions of one

Theists are burdened with a sense of heavy obligation and commitment (whether they're conscious of it or not).

They're jealous of Atheists' freedom to do what they please. Believe what they want.

Less enlightened individuals go with the "they're wicked" or "they're immoral" way of thinking.

I'm a fundamental agnostic. and I will die for my cause.

I think that's part of it, also the self righteous attitude of many atheists probably does not help.

Absolutely...which is why I'm straying more to the realm of "non-believer"

I do prefer science... and yet beyond that..... there seems to be something 'other'.. something almost out of reach, something we can't define, a collective consciousness, waves of interlocking energies...patterns...design, purpose... drums.. method... wonder....taking us higher, taking us higher and higher!
Taking us to GOD
Sorry about that...
I'm sure it was sugar I put in a tea this morning.

It's a pity that people always want a romantic reason in life, no matter how incredibly dillusional. :/

Maybe people fear that new atheist leaders will follow other atheist leaders' examples. E.g. Stalin, Mao, Pol-pot. I get the impression that a lot of atheists feel they have the freedom to do what they please...
Exhibit A

Or maybe it is the inherent lack of humility and pompous self-righteous attitude displayed by so many of them. I also get the impression atheists think that all the rest of the theistic people are nuts and they are the only sane people... What rubbish.

Or maybe other people think atheists are nuts. They cannot prove that there does not exist something greater, something that we can not perceive with only our five senses. Yet they believe this to be the truth. Maybe they are the ones stuck in a cave, and just because they cannot see beyond a specific border, believe there is nothing there. Besides, I challenge any atheist (or any other person) to prove empirically and objectively that what they perceive with their five senses correlates with what is happening in the natural world... Theists and atheists have this same faith.

Or maybe it is perception of other people that atheists don't seem to have any goal in life except propagating their selfish memes...

Perceptions, perceptions....

You do know those three were radical communists who took out anyone who would threaten their grasp on power? But the "all atheists are like stalin and hitler" argument is a meme that NEVER goes away.




Lack of humility? An atheist who says "I'm just a highly evolved animal, and my opinions might be wrong" lacks humility? What about a reverend who think his will reflects that of the Supreme and all powerful creator of a hundred billion galaxies? What about priest who thinks that he was made in the image of this divine, all knowing creator of the laws which govern the universe?




The old "you cannot prove that X doesnt exist so X must exist" argument, really tired. We percieve everything with our senses, there might be other things out there, but we cant just assume that that thing is the God of the bible and all that jazz. I'll leave your challenge to an actual scientist.




I've never met a selfish atheist, I've met selfish theists though.

They're jealous because atheism had Douglas Adams.

Romance is cool... to even recognise beauty in nihilism is still to recognise beauty. Too many labels..
Even Atheism is complicated..
Or maybe Agnostic atheism

As your statement stands- you could use it to justify everything and anything.

So..if I disable your account for blatantly breaking the pinned Forum guidelines:

Please always respect the beliefs of other members. The bashing of specific religions, countries, races or belief systems is strictly disallowed. A lot of the topics in this section cover some sensitive areas and it is important to respect other people's views. This means no flaming, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks.

...then it would have no effect in the real world?

Power, materialism, atheism... is it possible there is a connection. Off course there is, however, the same can be said for power, churches, and theism... now who was the boggest killer?
It shouldn't, it should be a reminder to what atheism is capable of.


Good for you, how prevalent is this view among atheists I ask you? I find a lot that think they are they're own little gods..., although it has to be said a lot of theists are incorrectly self-righteous.
And yet he is still humble before his Creator, because he feels there is some greater goodness out there to strive towards.


That old " I cannot perceive X therefore it doesn't exist" argument is equally tiring.
To deny the possibility that there is something that exists that we cannot grasp is irrational.

It is impossible to prove, we are limited by our five senses, unless you feel/believe we will one day evolve a sixth sense... and still we will be limited.

You should get out more and read Dawkins... whats wrong with you anyway, Dawkinsian reasoning will make you believe that everything we do is because we are selfish on some level.

My senses will pick it up yeah. Sorry if I overstepped. My senses also picked up on some commonly held perceptions... I will refrain from doing so in the future if it offends, apologies.

Apology accepted. It's possible to debate all of those points without doing it in an offensive manner.

Wait, what? Are you implying that atheism caused the Holocaust and the Gulag camps?

Yeah, funny story that. Hitler began committing genocide purely because he thought there was no god. Absolutely nothing else influenced him...



So why do you not believe in the tooth fairy? (Or do you?)

But does not George Bush think he hears God talking to him? Did he not state that God had told him to go to war against terror (quite how one can declare war on a state of mind has always puzzled me). I think one should be weary of ALL leaders regardless of their religious beliefs, or lack of beliefs.

I didn't mention Hitler, although he was in the link, and I don't entirely agree with the link? However, imo Hitler was his own little god and wanted to prove it by pushing ideologies that suited him... not? He strikes me as a hardcore materialist that used religion to blind the German population of his true objectives. Thats my opinion, and nobody is probably going to agree as I haven't studied it in depth, however I believe there are scholars that might agree with some of it. Now what about the other two suckers, Stalin and Mao?


The tooth fairy does not strike me as an all-powerful creator, but if you want to believe it and then deny her, so be it. If you think the FSM is capable of something and then deny it, that reflects on you only.

I donno, I'm under the impression that he made that choice because of bad intelligence (probably his own and the CIA and others).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler#Religious_beliefs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%...ligious_beliefs

Hitler was born and raised as a Roman Catholic, and, although he never was a practicing Christian as an adult, he praised Christian heritage and avocated Positive Christianity ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity ).

As for Stalin and Mao, both were atheists, but atheism was a part of their twisted versions of communism, the cause of the brutal killings perpetred by the respective regimes, not the cause in itself. Blaming atheism for causing the Gulag camps is like blaming Christianity, because Hitler viewed Jesus as an Aryan opponent of the Jews, for causing the Holocaust.

Bad intelligence. Hmmm i think we agree, it does seem rather unintelligent to base such massive decisions on the advice of an invisible "friend" who lives in the sky.

Hitler used anything he wanted that would favor his ideologies. Not for one second will I believe that he believed he was going to be held accountable for his earthly deeds. He was his own little god and believed everything he did was right in his head. He didn't even want to be held accountable by mere mortals, I presume it would have been a blow to his self-professed status as a diety... my opinion off course.
Why does that absolve atheism? Religion is held accountable for its deeds, even if religion was used as an excuse to fight over power and wealth. Now I know you think atheism is just a belief and not a religion, but in Stalin's case, communism was the excuse, and atheism and communism went hand-in-hand during that era.

Or was the massive decision made based on bad intelligence from the CIA and others, and the "God told me too" was just to play along with the conservative right and keep their votes. Either way it was a bad idea.

...You're talking about Communism... Seriously. Research Stalinism.

Communism removes any other hint of power that can hinder the Dictators influence. Communism removes other political parties. Kills those that oppose the dictator. Remove any idea that opposes the Dictators influence of complete power.

You don't become a Communist Dictator because you're an Atheist. Stalin was a priest for a large majority of his early life. Atheism is a byproduct of Communist Dictatorship. Stalin didn't kill for Atheism, he killed for power and for fear. But I suppose Atheism is to blame for everything. It's gotta be, if the pope says so.

Also, the "biggest killer"? Religion. Hands down. Atheism and Religion have been around together for a long while. When christianity was created as well as when islam was created. Yet... Now let's see. Who killed more... OH! Yeah! Christianity, then comes Islam, with Atheism so far away from the murdering toll there's nothing there. And no, Communism has nothing to do with Atheism

And read up on Dawkin's... No thanks, he's pretty much a radical. But, it's funny seeing the religious squirm when he beats them down. But yeah, he's a radical-evolutionist.

Obviously he believed everything he did was right. But does that imply that he can't possibly have believed in God? I'm not an expert on Hitler or his religious beliefs, but my bet would be that he thought of Judaism as inferior to Christianity, and thus it would please God if he destroyed Judaism to replace it with Christianity. Dubya's a Christian but I hardly think he's crying when some Muslim is killed in Iraq or Afghanistan.

It absolves atheism because atheism wasn't the direct cause of what Stalin and Mao did. It was part of their political ideology, but I'm quite sure they killed far more people for their political leanings than for their religious beliefs.

I don't outright hate Atheists, but I don't outright hate Christians either. I'm weary of them both because many of the Christians/Atheists I've met have been bigoted. I dislike bigory almost enough to add it to the things I hate list. I dislike a bigoted Atheist, but there are some (like truethat) who I have no problem with.

This post alone helped a lot to understand why atheists are so unpopular.

Those people did not act in the name of atheism, but in the name of a twisted and perverse utopic vision of tainted communism. What you are doing here is a form of what is called reductio ad Hitlerum., which is a logical fallacy.

That's a huge generalization which of course doesn't hold. Atheists are just as human and kind as any other person.

And nobody thinks that theistic people are nuts (although there are plenty of those too), they just consider theism to be nuts, which it certainly is from a realistic perspective.

The thing is that you cannot disprove the unprovable.

If I worshipped a multicoloured omnipotent spacerhino from the subaquatic volcanoes on Pluto, nobody could prove that it doesn't exist. You are atheistic in reguards to the space rhino, atheists are atheistic in reguards to your god.

Does that mean that I can tell you that you don't have faith? No, it does not.

Atheists have the objective of enjoying the only life that they will ever have in this world. They live their life to their fullest, enjoying and embracing this unique and beautiful life we have.

Christians and atheists make up a third of the world's population. Of course many will be bigoted, that's just their own personality, not a consequence of their beliefs.

In the era when communism was at its peak militant atheism and communism WAS joined at the hip. Today, militant atheism can be observed in China.
Also:
Karl Marx said: "Religion is the opium of the people," and "Communism begins from the outset with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."
and
Vladimir Lenin said: "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could."

I think it is disingenuous to separate atheism from communism and the atrocities committed under communism, but so be it.

I think the rules here are way too strict. I doubt he offended anyone (that quote was in fact amazingly unprovocative), and I don't see what is wrong even if someone did get offended, as long as the discussion is reasonable. The politeness rules are such that it makes discussion more difficult - anyone can arbitrarily decide to get offended by anything no matter how innocent, especially when discussing these types of issues.


Again, they had nothing to do with atheism.

It's very prevalent. It's actuallt that line of thought which allows people to become atheists in the first place.

Yes, but the possibilities are infinite. Why choose god, out of the infinite other choices? Why not choose a common cabbage as the creator of the world? Theoretically it is possible, because we can't prove it, right?

However, you should look at what there is, instead of imagining what there could be. If you turn on your garden hose, and every single time water comes out, why would you believe that the next time gasoline is going to come out? It's theoretically possible, but it's just not going to happen.

So people dislike atheists because atheists think that people are selfish on some level? Interesting.

I essentially agree with Marx' comment on opium and religion, but that's another debate.

As for atheism and communism being joined, that's what I said. Atheism was a part of communism, and has been since the days of Marx. What you are implying is that atheism was the direct cause of what went on under Mao and Stalin, which it simply wasn't. Atheism was a part of the ideology behind the killings, not the cause of the killings.

I donno, if someone chooses to belief a common cabbage did it, well in some way that must reflect on that person's pshyche. Besides, the universe is not made out of cabbages (or so our senses tells us anyway ), and I would like to believe good prevails throughout the universe (life is a gift imo) and that reflects on the creator. Evil also prevails, whether it is inherent in the creation or not I donno... maybe we can not understand such a notion and the philosophy behind it. The belief in a greater ultimate good and the will to strive for it (however impossible it may be to reach it) seems like a good way to life one's life.

Christianity was part of the ideology behind the witch-hunts, not the cause of the killings... whats wrong with this statement? People with silly ideologies kill people...

Christianity was the direct cause of the killings. The witches were burnt because they, according to the Church, didn't adhere to Christianity.

Now, how many do you think were killed in Russia and China because of them not adhering to atheism versus the number of people killed because they didn't adhere to Stalinism and Maoism?

There is exactly the same amount of evidence for cabbages creating the universe as there is of god creating the universe. The probability is also exactly the same.

It helps to be an atheist if you want to adhere to communism, if your not, "well lets burn down your church and kill you, you opium loving religious nut..." "bow down to the power of Stalinism... oh it helps if you're not religious, wouldn't want that to hinder your belief in materialism". Is that right?

I didn't know cabbages can create goodness, and laws etc... If you think cabbages did it and then deny it... so be it. Does it reflect on your mindset... perhaps? Last time I checked, cabbages were healthy smelly food.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, aside from being an atheist helping if you want to adhere to communism (which it obviously does). What you still fail to see is that Stalin and Mao killed few, if any (a historian would be able to answer that better than me), because of their religious beliefs. Most victims were killed because of their political leanings. Atheism was a part of Stalinism and Maoism, the ideologies that were behind the murders, not the direct cause of the murders.



There is just as much evidence for cabbages creating goodness and laws as there is for God creating it, which means absolutely no evidence. Believing in an omnipotent cabbage is essentially not much nuttier than believing in an omipotent old man sitting on a cloud.

Indirect or direct, it was still a cause, it played a part, and there is no way in denying it.

Believing in either one of them is nuts... Personalizing is the problem you seem to have.

It was a part of the ideology, but atheism still didn't kill anyone. Stalinism and Maoism did. If you look at the numbers, Christianity, which is supposed to be a religion of love, ironically enough has far more blood on its hands than atheism.

Stalinism is an oppressive regime of terror in which the means justify the ends, with an absolute dictator and the extensive use of secret police, etc.
Atheism is the lack of belief in any kind of god.

Guess which one caused the trouble.

And you must have missed it when I said it earlier. You are employing a logical fallacy very similar to reductio ad Hitlerum.


Except replace "Hitler" with Stalin, or Mao, or whatever.


Why would you choose god and not a cabbage?

first i'll say this it will make a few people mad, while i'm aware plenty of people hate atheist i do think atheist overexaggerate way to much on how much people hate them. i also think they are way to damn sensitive. any little think that is said to bother them is a big deal about how people hate them.

next with that said, few reasons i think some people hate atheist. first some people hate them because they think it's their religious duty, if you're not with god you're not with them. second, many religious people believe strong in their believs, it's not that they hate atheist it's that they just don't understand their belief, just like an atheist doesn't understand any religious belief. next alot of atheist put down, make fun, mock, and laugh at peoples beliefs, obviously this creates tension. which leads to atheist can get away with saying mean things about peoples beliefs but any mention towards what they think is a huge episode about how people hate them.

What turns me off of Atheist's is the same thing that turns me off of evangelical Theists...... They're self-rightous and think it's their business to convert me!

nice one

Yeah... You shouldn't base your veiws on Atheists off the SvS thread...

It seems odd that this debate has centered mostly on a couple of political leaders. Throought history there have been many leaders, some nice some not so nice, some religous some atheist. ther eis no correlation between these factors. Many leaders and used either their beliefs or the common beliefs at the time to motivate or control a culture. This factor can occur with any collection of beliefs it has nothing to do with wether christians or atheists are better people. For evey bad leader who adhered to athism i am sure someone can pull out a religous one. the point being the issue that casued these problems is to do with power and corruption and should not be used for mud slinging at someones chosen perception of life.

Of course not everyone dislikes atheists, but it is undeniable that atheists are not popular at all, anywhere, especially in the States.

Christianity had everything to do with the witch hunts and lillings..for it clearly reads in the bible it is an abomination <--when man reads this, he feels he must take it upon himself to kill and destroy anyone that maybe linked to witchcraft..and so many were indeed burnt alive and thrown to their deaths

thing is..when these women where being killed...the men said - if she can fly to safety..then it proves she is a witch....not one women could save herself...so turns out all of them were killed with NO REAL evidence to prove they were witches


Any ideas as to WHY it no longer happens??

Ain't it thE truth (for the most paRT) ?

They arent popular where I come from...you would hardly meet an atheist over here