I agree.... I am part of a culture and a group that meets on Tuesdays and we discuss things religion, life, philosophy education and politics..out of all of us I am the least in formal education many are PH D's in physcology, philosophy and degrees are held in in theology and linguistics, most are older than me....... I have a minor in physcology and a cosmetology liscense LOL, I do not buy the god thing at all and many have religious beleifs and we debate and its a blast, My job is the same way we debate on all subjects this is life, and why shouldn't we talk about the real issues After all it affects me too...... My 10 year old sits in on many of these discussions if he is not off conversing with someone.......

I have no trouble hearing about religions any of them or discussing ideas on things, its what we do in California ...the fun is the diversity and learning I love that aspect, No one gets upset( nor attacks anyone, its unheard of ) what another thinks is celebrated and fascinating, its common amoungst intellectuals to discuss, debate and explore perspectives...Its healthy... and fun..

I for one do not dislike atheist. I am a Muslim and do not believe as the atheist do, but I do not hate, dislike or even have some smug pity for them. The word "freedom" is something I've never really associated with "atheist". I have received alot of hostility from atheist. Once at an interfaith dialogue at a Unitarian church an atheist stood up in the middle of the discussion and all but attacked us. There is a strong anti-religious movement these days, I remain at peace with everyone's choice. Allah gave the atheist the right to choose just like everybody else. If I want my choice to be respected I will respect the choices made by others.

Hey Evancj

I would have to completely agree with you on this. I work for a company that is fairly religious (not over the top) and I definitely keep from expressing my views openly. Persecution these day's sheeesh lol. I do talk about my beliefs with some of my family but them being religious, I can see that it makes them uncomfortable when I discuss why I believe what I believe. I don't really get into it with them, but my friends damn rights I do and I love a little verbal tiff with my bud's. However if I'm in a situation where I find someone is a little to preachy I will counter and thats always abit fun.

Hi Supra Sheri

I to don't hear to much about people getting all up in arm's over discussing anything from religion to politics. Heck thats what we see in the paper all the time why not discuss it openly. I'm under the impression that the more we talk the better. I'm not a social butterfly and the topic of religion is rarely talked about at alot of social gatherings, hence I come here and read about it alot but don't comment to much on it. Ahhh California/San Diego, love that town..... I to love hearing about other people's beliefs, hmmm next time I'm down there I'll join you one Tuesday night.

Let me know ST, we have a great time and learn alot and make freinds along the way...seriously let me know the next time you are around the area we can meet.......

It's a date then...... I'll keep in touch..... forsure

one sentence and I have to edit LOL

See this thread has shown most fulsomely that atheists don't have a heart of cold flinty stone after all.

It has hasn't it


As with any so called group ( I don't like that word ) we will always have a few with in our "group" that make the rest look bad. Just as Darklight pointed out about the rude Atheist and what they/he/she did at the Unitarian church. Paints a bad light but as not belonging to any "group" I don't really care what he/she did and I hope the people that were there took it with a grain of salt. I would like to say that as an Atheist I never try and push my belief nor do I talk about unless asked, most times I just say I'm an Agnostic, damn it sure would be nice to die and find a kick ass utopia, but I doubt it. Damn was that me being a bit preachy Doh LOL

Yes, you better. Call one of them now and ask any question that comes to mind. Then ask them if you can borrow their toothbrush or underwear....promise them they'll get it back.

'Doug1o29' date='Dec 11 2007, 08:51 AM' post='2031354'] " ...Personally, I find atheists to be a lot less obnoxious than fundamentalist Christians .... If you believe in an eternal paradice, what would be wrong about helping someone to that destination to killing them? Maybe that's why Christians like war so much."

Fundamentalist Christians or any persons pushing their religious beliefs at you are obnoxious. But there are also very irritating atheists - not all will just quietly go their way - who obnoxiously insist on trying to argue the toss over proof of deity when the subject need not be discussed at all. This may be one reason why some people dislike atheists - an encounter or more with militant atheists.

Besides, since as you reminded us, atheists are unable to prove a negative, their arguments are pretty fruitless. Fun only with people with a strong sense of the absurd.

I cannot agree that Christians like war - at all.

Their argument doesn't rely on the proving of a negative, so it's not fruitless.

Almost nobody does like war, but religion can be a contributor or enabler to it.

How's that?

So an Atheist has to have proof that god does not exist, but a believer does not need proof to show that god does exist?

Right and if more people of every belief felt that way it would be a lot easier for everyone. the extreme views and reactions that give any group a bad name usually do not represent the majority. Unfortunatly those with exteme views often shout the loudest and are more likely to be noticed thus giving a bad image of the culture or belief they represent.

Sorry if I came across a little strong. I don't know any atheists who push their ideas on others, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there are some. People are people and not everybody is nice. At least, atheists don't have an imagined requirement to tell everybody else they're going to hell, as do SOME Christian sects.

It would seem to me that arguments on either side of this issue are pretty fruitless. If you like to argue for argument's sake, it is a good topic just because it can't be resolved.

Nobody who has been in combat likes war. If Christians actually followed Jesus as the Prince of Peace, they couldn't go to war. But they do.
The requirements for Augustine's "Just War" are never met in practice, so there is no such thing as a "Just War." Why, then, do "Christians" like George Bush, start unnecessary wars and why did the religious right re-elect him? They can plead ignorance for the 2000 election, but in 2004 they knew what kind of person he was. I think the answer is that as long as they don't PERSONALLY have to fight, the religious right LIKES war ("It's good for the economy.").

Back in the '60s we had a term for people who want somebody else to do the fighting: CHICKEN HAWKS.
Doug

Just as an aside, the term chickenhawk or chicken hawk is also slang for old gay men who prefer to have sex with younger male partners.

Other variations include chicken queen and chicken plucker.

Doug1o29' date='Dec 12 2007, 08:30 AM' post='2033392']" ... At least, atheists don't have an imagined requirement to tell everybody else they're going to hell, as do SOME Christian sects..."

Actually some atheists enjoy telling people that when they die they simply cease to exist and nothing of their consciousness remains. Watching an atheist father telling his sons (aged 20 and 9) this, for the umpteenth time, made me realise how bleak his outlook is and how he should have left the boys to decide for themselves later. No doubt some atheists might think that the sooner chldren realise that there is no God the better for their 'realistic' outlook on life.

I personally prefer to think and speak of paradise rather than hell.

Sometimes it is not possible to refuse to go to war, unless you become a conscientous objector. It would take very large numbers to resist a war, as in 'What if they gave a war and nobody came?'

Why do you need to prove anything unless the other-person tries to prove it first.

Everybody should keep their noses to themselves, ain't no business of theres another person's thoughts or beliefs. Though... Shame no one realises that/the bible (and perhaps others) tells you to ignore that.

A friend of mine from Wichita was in Vietnam. His unit was attacked by North Vietnamese regulars and repulsed. After the battle he was ordered to search the bodies of Vietnamese soldiers for "intelligence." On the body of a soldier he had shot, he found a picture of the man with a young woman and child. He has lived with the knowledge that because of him that child was an orphan. He told me that two years in the Federal pen would have been a piece of cake by comparison and he is sorry he didn't refuse the draft.

At least in the U.S., you can always refuse to enlist or refuse the draft if it is reactivated, even if you can't get CO status. They will send you to prison, but that should be a minor problem for one who sincerely wishes to follow Jesus. It is always possible to do what is right; it is not always expedient.

There are a few Christian churches that sponsor CO clinics and offer counseling, so my statement about Christians liking war is too broad a generalization. Some of those COs are atheists, but work with churches on problems they both share. There is no reason that theists and atheists can't cooperate.

It would take large numbers to resist a war. It would also take large numbers to resist an invader with non-violent means, but it has been done. Christians CAN follow Jesus teachings, if they choose. It won't be easy and much of the resistance will come from other Christians, but PEACE IS POSSIBLE.
Doug

However, your friend would have left his son/daughter an orphan if that man killed him. It's war, it's kill or be killed. Morals don't exist until the battles over. 'legal' or 'illegal' wars, it's the same principles.

Sorry to go off topic there.

but that wouldn't have been possible if he wasn't even there. The Viet Cong weren't boarding boats to land in San Francisco or anything.

I have NO problem with Athiests, although I have to say that a few I've met on this board have come across as if not more venemous and agressive than the evangelists I've run into. Until joining this board, I didn't believe FOX's frequent claims of a war on religion in the US. I still don't believe them, but I am starting to see a side of athiesm that I'm not very comfortable with on this board.

I thank you for that observation Doug. Peace Friend,

Whether or not someone has offered a proof beforehand is irrelevant. You can say that you don't believe in a god because there's no evidence for one and therefore no reason to believe one exists, but you can't definitively say that there is no god without having proof.

It's logically impossible to prove that x does not exist, regardless of what x is.

Which is why atheism is faith based.

Depends on the person.

One may spend his time believing in no god.

While another - like myself - just don't care enough to comtemplate a higher entity.

May sound the same, but they're not.

Wouldn't that make you a nontheist, not an atheist?

Not really. Atheist 1 - contemplates that there is no god. Atheist 2 - doesn't give a gorram single thought to contemplating a non-existant god.

first of all, its contemplate, and second of all, atheism IS NOT faith based. we simply apply reason to matters of the world, there is no evidence supporting religion so we do not support it, thats it, simply put.

First of all, wah?

Second of all; It is faith based...

Faith is defined as: A strong confidence in a belief or object : IE: "I have faith he'll come back" or "I have faith that the dinner'll be done by the time we get back".

If atheism incorporates nontheism as Chokmah is saying, then I'll change my statement. A positive belief that there is no god is faith based.

Honestly, most of the non-religious people I know fit into that category. I have no problem with that, in fact, I envy them in a way.

Personally, I lack the belief in God. Not that I believe he doesn't exist. I have no belief towards him/her/it at all. If I see what I would consider adequate evidence of his/her/its existence, then I would change my mind.

I like this from Wiki - Atheism

Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism and naturalism, there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere.

HN

Reason and proof won't get you far on this issue. It has more to do with the processes of reason and logic than it does with God. The principles of reason are incomplete and are not up to the job of rendering a verdict on the existence (or lack of existence) of God. If you argue on the basis of logic or reason, you will have to conclude that no answer is possible and that will make you an agnostic.

SO: both theism and atheism are firmly planted on an assumption and agnosticism is the only LOGICAL conclusion. This does not differ from atheism a whole lot, but it leaves the agnostic unable to offer any kind of argument.


If God said he was lying, would you believe Him?

Can God make a rock so large, He can't lift it?

God is a paradox.
Doug

The thing is that the possibility of the existance of god is merely philosophical - one in infinity. That takes faith to believe in, and takes none not to, in practice.

Equally I could tell a believer that they are atheistic in reguards to an omnipotent spectral zucchini monster, or anything that pops into my head. God is just one in infinity of the scenarios that could, philosophically speaking, be true. All scenarios which believers are "atheistic" in reguards to.

Good post, Doug, but I have to take issue with this point.

Being agnostic I would suggest the principles of reason may well be complete, it is simply that God is unreasonable.

In response to the OP, there are atheistic zealots just as there are theistic zealots. Zealotry in any form is unpalatable to many and the group acquires the reputation of it's most outspoken members. Atheism is no exception.

Correction to my earlier post: By Goedel's Theorem, the Principles of Logic are incomplete. Goedel's Theorem is provable; thus, there exists Truth that is inaccessible to reason. QED.

God has nothing to do with that statement. Hope I'm not sounding too argumentative here, but that is straight out of a mathematics book.
Doug

I always thought the burden of proof was on the person claiming X existed. Otherwise the doubter would have to simultaneously have awareness of every part of the universe in order to claim that X does not exist.

No problem! I see your point, although philosophy isn't necessarily derived from mathematical or logical principles. I know Geodel's Theorem isn't universally accepted as proving incompleteness outside mathematics, but that's not really the point of the thread.

Thats what I thought to and mentioned it a page or so back. Hmmmm

Betsy and Silver Thong,

If you are referring to Doug's point about how Logic is incomplete and so some Truth exists that we cannot infer by logic, then that Truth does not neccesarily mean God. It can mean God, but it does not imply that God is a Truth. It simply means something that is true exists outside logic without saying what that something is.

It is.


If I were to tell you that the pillsbury dough boy was a real evil God planning to enslave us and torture us by watching re-runs of the golden girls, it would be up to me to provide proof of it not instead tell you that it was up to you to prove me wrong and bring me proof that it is not true.

Man Leo, you give me a headache sometimes , but in all honesty, your statement above is rather logical and I like it.

I find you rather brilliant Leo and wanted to add IMO logic is so superfical in its insights few use it to its full potentall IMO and truth is really just thoughts thought so much they become a personal truth/belief, I can't fathom relgion as a truth, for my tastes its just silly and was even as a child in Catholic school at 7 years old I knew it was an incomplete understanding.... ..... Its just the musings of overactive imaginations ....IMO ... Very little of mans constructs probe very deep( with the exception of the eastern pohilopshys IMO) now sceince is trying to catch up ...Question? What is your personal perspective on truth ?

I agree with the part underlined and disagree with the bolded section of your response. Atheism can only come about in one of two ways--1) To be totally ignorant of the concept of God 2)To be aware of the concept of God, to deliberate that concept based on one's own logic, and then to dismiss the concept of there being a God as plausible. Agnosticism therefore is not the only logical conclusion, it is however, something that one must become before reaching the 2nd conclusion --atheism.

Doug1o29 Correction to my earlier post: By Goedel's Theorem, the Principles of Logic are incomplete. Goedel's Theorem is provable; thus, there exists Truth that is inaccessible to reason. QED.
Leonardo: No problem! I see your point, although philosophy isn't necessarily derived from mathematical or logical principles. I know Geodel's Theorem isn't universally accepted as proving incompleteness outside mathematics, but that's not really the point of the thread.

As close as it gets. Thank you.
I still go with Agnostic as linguistically the better alternative to Atheist, when describing someone who has no faith in the existence of a deity or does not care whether or not there is a deity.

Logically, you would have to be Agnostic to the possibility of Bob who created the world on the back of an invisible Turtle, George, who wears Raybans, Calvin Klein boxers and carries an (invisible) pink Gucci handbag.

But that's only Logically. There's a point where the odds of something actually existing becomes so infinitesimally low, that for all intents and purposes, you're more likely to be knocked over in the street by Lord Lucan in a shopping trolley being pushed by the Pointer Sisters singing a cover of Motorhead's "The Ace of Spades".

Which is when you become an Atheist.

Pure poetry!

Ok, that was quite witty. And I did laugh, and now I have this unexplainable desire to hear the Pointer Sisters cover Ace of Spades (give it a disco back beat please)... really. LOL

But to be serious for a minute here (I can almost hear the groans), I understand the concept you're getting at, it's a concept I work with a lot during the day (I think you and I do the same thing for a living if I remember correctly). The problem I have is that God isn't something I've ever been able to apply the mathematical or scientific disciplines to. It would be like trying to start my car with a slice of chocolate cake.

Neo,

Please follow through with your thought about not being comfortable with some aspects of atheisim you have observed on this board.

Thank you.