Not aspects of Athiesm itself, just the behavior of SOME Athiests on this board. I'm a VERY liberal christian. Yet, a few athiests on this board have made assumptions about me and been extremely disrespectfull of my beliefs. I would prefer that one's ACTIONS be criticized, not their beliefs.

I think that Athiests would be less feared and misunderstood by non-athiests if they didn't call the bible "garbage" and insult the integrity and beliefs of those who believe differently.

Before checking out this board, I could only have an opinion of the Athiests I know personally, and they are all very liberal, mellow and accepting people. But a few of the athiests on this board are as obnoxious and militant as the worst of the evangelists, and they are very insulting and agressive. I suppose I was naive in pigeonholing liberals and athiests as accepting and mellow.

I realize that these few are no more a representative for Athiesm than GW is for christianity, but I dislike anything that interferes with one's right to their religion, and I have a better understanding of the worst face of Athiesm, which I believe religious people dislike and think of when they think of Athiests.

Myself, as a non-religious but spiritual person, don't feel the need to come on here and create a thread specically criticizing a particular religion. Nor do I feel the need to attack athiesm. But there have been several threads and posts that seem to be all about attacking religion or the God concept. I think that evengelicals should keep to themselves unless asked, and I think that athiests should do the same.

I can't disagree with a word of that Neogenisis. Well done.

IMO, i dont think theyre making threads purposely to "bash" or "attack" any religion. its more of them wanting to debate it, or in alot of cases, prove it wrong. i dont believe anyone here just decides to come on to make fun of others and their beliefs. i would hope not anyways

Why on earth would you feel the need to start a thread to prove someone's religion wrong?

If you want to criticize someone's actions or politics, go ahead. But to create a post to prove someone's religion wrong?

That's an aspect of athiesm (some athiests, I should say) that I don't care for and that causes a lot of ill will on the part of religious people.



Using terms like "garbage" to describe a religion or a religous text is pretty much evidence of that, i would say.

But myself, I don't care if you think that every word of the bible or the Koran or whatever buddhists belive is untrue. But don't call something people believe in "garbage" and then be surprised when those peopel don't fall in love with Athiesm.

Why do you think religion should not be criticized like anything else? If a movie critic says that a movie is garbage, nobody even raises an eyebrow. Why is it that you, and so many others, think that religion cannot be discussed or criticized?

Because religion is a belief, and as a belief, requires no proof.

I do believe that the policies and actions of a religious group should be criticized, but not the core beliefs, which are unprovable anyway.

In other words, I feel the right to criticize some groups denial of homosexual rights. But I do not feel the right to criticize their belief in a God.

One thing affects the here and now with actions, the other is just a belief based on faith.

Of course, you have the right to criticize anything you want. But if you are going to be an athiest and criticize people's belief in God and make an attempt to point out what you see as inconsistancies or odd things about their religion, don't make a post wondering why some religious peopel dislike some athiests.

And why can't it be criticized?

Again, why not criticize their awful belief system?

Right, so it was wrong for science to criticize the belief that the earth is the center of the solar system, which was a belief based on faith?

This is a spirituality vs. skepticism forum, plus there are other contributors apart from the disagreement of atheists.

So wombat, let's take a look at this another way and perhaps in a more personal way.

I believe you mentioned that your Aunt is a minister, Episcopal if I remember correctly? I may have infered that though since I think you called her a "priest"

Would you have a conversation with her about religion and tell her point blank, that the Bible is garbage? Not, that "you think" the Bible is garbage, but that is IS? If you cared one whit about her, I doubt you would. I doubt the word "garbage" would even be mentioned (truly, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, I think you're probably not nearly as aggressive IRL as you are here). I'm going to guess that you'd be far more eloquent about choosing your words.

Having a debate is all in good fun and it's good exercise for the brain at times. But the best debaters aren't mud slingers.

But what I'm trying to say is the venemous lack of respect that shows up should be your answer to why some people don't like athiests.

Do you like being called a godless heathen destined to burn in hell?

Of course not.

So would an athiest think it's ok to call a religious belief "aweful" or "garbage" or whatever.

You're defensive posturing in response to my posts should answer your own original question.

Question a religion? sure.
Critizice a religion's policy? Sure

Spend all day digging up quotes from the bible and agressively trying to make one's religion look foolish? Calling someone's beliefs "aweful" or "garbage?" Sure, you have every right. But then don't go around like "gee, i wonder why some religious people sometimes don't like athiests?"

Some religious people don't like athiests because they lump all athiests in with the agressive ones who actively criticize their religions and belittle their beliefs.
Sure, you have the right, but don't be surprised when some people don't look kindly on it.




I'm pretty sure Gallileo said something like "my data indicates that the earth is revolving around the sun, and that the idea that the earth is stationary is wrong."

He probably didn't walk in to the vatican and say "you idiots are a bunch of dumbasses and your belief system is garbage."

(although the result probably would have been the same then. But today, when you call someone stupid and their belief system garbage, they respond by not liking you or your kind. Does that sufficiently answer the OP question?)

Yes, she's a Lutheran priestess.

Of course I wouldn't bring up the discussion, but if somehow we started to debate it, I would be honest about my views. I might even use (the Finnish version of) the word garbage, but even if I put it into the most politically correct baby-talk, my message would be exactly the same - which is the only thing that matters.

By mud slinging I guess you mean someone who attacks the opponent instead of concentrating on the issue at hand. I don't do that.

No I don't but we do get told stuff like that.



It's fine to say it is awful that is not even being harsh calling it garbage though is a little disrespectful.



It does work the other way too. Telling people they will suffer a horrible roasting in hell because they do not follow Christ is not very nice and upsetting ,telling them they are lost lambs or misguided is a little annoying but its okay unless we are told every single time then it can get nasty.




Your right and it does go the other way too. Sometimes I have made that error but I do know there are many nice Christian people who are good people just that there are some bad eggs like there are some bad eggs with Atheists and other groups.






I see your point but like i said we have bad eggs on both sides.

Neo,

Dido to what MissMelsWell said here.

I myself (being an extremely flawed human) am guilty of coming down on Christianity and the bible a bit hard at times. But I think that’s why some people are attracted to this forum (me included). This is a place where a person is free to express her/his individual beliefs in an open and honest way without fearing the consequences one might suffer from exposing their viewpoints anywhere else. After all religion and politics are very touchy subjects.

(DISCLAMER: I have PTSD and can get a bit paranoid and defensive at times).

From my atheist point of view I have suffered maltreatment and degradation from some christians since I have become an atheist and this forum has provided a harmless outlet for venting my sometimes perceived and sometimes real persecution.

Granted some of us individuals (atheists, christians, and myself) could learn to be more tactful (which I am struggling to do) when criticizing others beliefs, but I cant help but wonder if this forum would be as interesting if everyone was always considerate and politically correct.

Of course. I said previously that the athiests I know personally are nothing like some of you. And until this forum, I didn't know that there were agressive and diserectfull athiests. This has been an eye opener for me.

But the original post asked a quesion, and I think i answered it. it seems it's the same reason why some athiests don't like or feel threatnened by some religious people. Because some people can't leave well enough alone and allow people to have their own beliefs without seeking confrontation.



I agree. So you should know how some athiests make some religous people feel when they say their belief in God is garbage and they are stupid.

There's no need for it from either side.

I feel I do need to try and be a little tactful also but some people on all sides feel that others should tip toe around their belief or non belief.

So then to make yourself feel better, you come on this forum and maltreat and degrade christians? (not YOU-you, YOU meaning in general)

You're allowed to do that, but the price is that peopel like me who had NO problem with any athiest I've ever met, are now aware that there is an aggressive athiestic element out there that is hostile towards my beliefs.

Everything has an effect, even venting on the internet.

Evancj, I'm not recalling anything you've said that made me think "wow, what a jerk."

But this forum has made me realize that not all Athiests are the live-and-let-live folks I thought you all were.

It's on the list under "atheists make fun of religion" or something like that.

You are taking things personally. The attack on one's belief is not an attack on the person themselves (which insulting, for example, is). If someone disagrees with, for example, my political views (even if to a radical degree), why would I take offense? Why would a religious person take offense if their religios views are disagreed with, or even criticized?

What do you mean?


I haven't quoted anything from the bible, and everything I've said has been a response to someone's remarks. And again, that is just one reason.

With that logic I could also complain that I am being offended by other people criticizing me or my views, including yourself.

Duly noted.

Actually, he couldn't even say that. He was forced to recant his views and spent the last years of his life under house arrest. And heliocentrism was discovered much, much earlier back in Ancient Greece. It just goes to show what the "you must not criticize religion" attitude can do.

It seems like the fact that religion can still not stand criticism just shows how insecure it is. I suppose a few hundred years forward these days will be viewed with the same amazement as we view Galileo's fate.

And I'll add judging all atheists because of one.

Oh, and I've not insulted anyone.

The original question was why some people dislike athiests, NOT why some people dislike YOU.



So are you going to make up for it by tearing down people's religion today?

If you don't believe in God, that's fine. If you want to criticize my religion, that's fine too. But if you get insulting, don't be surprised when I don't like you for it. If this isn't you, then that's fine. But we all have seen very venemous and mean posts from both sides on this forum.

There's a difference between being UN PC and outright being disrespectfull and purposefully hitting a nerve.

Regardless, i can take it, but many religious people can't, the same way many Athiests can't take being told they are going to hell.

It doesn't solve anything and it causes a lot of ill will.

Like the Mormans. They believe that the Native Americans are actually long lost jews. Ludacrous. I might debate this with a mormon. But if I call their belief system "ludacrous" and I say that the book of mormon is "garbage," I won't have to post a topic asking why some mormons don't like me. I'll have a pretty good idea why.

MW are you familiar with Noam Chomsky, he is a brilliant debater along the lines of your standard... ?? Your last line contains a good point, yet I'd add it must be pointed out that not everyone that debates brings a maturity or openess to the debate..many think beleifs are loved ones and defend them and protect them as such. and in doing so sensitivitys and emotions run high... Really it is those that are relgious IMobservations that seem to have the problems more often than not...

I'd add that exploring ones ideas, to look at what one holds as a beleif is very important as its what systems are built on, ideas and the implementation of them...the implementation of an idea reveals it value and this is what one strives to understand....


many push the box to get others thinking and at any level this is a good thing, I have to tell you I have grow alot coming here....

I'm pretty sure Athiests don't like being told they are going to hell, though.

Eh? I know.

Make up for it? Er, no. I am simply going to take my liberty to disagree with whatever I want to disagree with.

I don't insult people.

Yes, there is. The problem is that some people (such as youself, it seems) do not know what the difference is.

You keep agreeing with me in that I should be able to criticize and debate whatever I want, but then you say that I shouldn't, for reasons of political correctness

How would you debate with a mormon without conveying the message that their beliefs are ridiculous?

And for the 3rd time, atheists making fun of religion is only ONE possible reason why people dislike atheists.

I'm saying that if you don't want to give people a reason to not like Athiests, you should choose better phrasing, as opposed to using words like "garbage" and "BS."

I'm saying that if you choose to agressively criticize someone's religion, they are going to have some negative feelings towards you, and maybe even towards your group.

You have every right to use those words, but don't be surprised that, as a result, some people lump all Athiests in with you and dislike them.



First off, I would not start a topic expressly to tear down the Mormon faith. I might debate decisions made by politicians based on their Morman faith. I generally don't find enjoyment in starting debates with the intention of discrediting someone's faith. What's the point? Is being a jerk going to win me some converts?

In debates with mormons, I've brought up dna, I've brought up archeology, I've brought up science. but I won't call the book of mormon "garbagel." That's clearly not constructive.

In other words, I'll debate homosexuality with a religious person because it affects real, live people TODAY. i won't open a debate about some obscure technical passage christ says in the bible. What's the point in that besides to attack a religion?

You might enjoy that, but I'm more respectfull.



Ok, so do you know what the others are?

I can only answer for myself.

For me, i have no problem with Athiests. I DO have a problem with aggressive and disresctfull people in general.

Sheri I've told you at least 25 times I AM VERY familiar with Noam Chomsky. Any other questions?

Like fairy-tales? Wishwash? Nonsense? Humbugh? Superstition? Does it make any difference at all? What matters is the message, not the messenger.

This thread is about why people dislike atheists, in case you haven't noticed.

You would systematically crush their every belief anyway.

What are you talking about? I haven't been talking about obscure bible passages.

And are you claiming that religion does not affect people today?

I've been adding the reasons that I've picked up from the thread on the OP.

I respect just about all people, including yourself, but that doesn't mean that I can't disagree with or criticize their views.

My belief is in science & evidence

Christianity/religion bashes my belief >which is science,reason & logic

You cant respect someones beliefs if their beliefs are so blatantly disrespectful of science , logic & reason

People accuse me of hating religion (yes)>therefore hating believers (no)

I would say I hate the illness/disease but not the patient

Why should I respect a belief that insults my intellect ?

That's the problem I have with atheists...they lump all the religious together like there are no religious scientists.

Actually I have to agree with you we do tend to do that. It's when we see things like Jesus rode on the back of a Dinosaur IN SPACE that does it.

Cause some thirteen year old has a rich imagination...

There are thousands of religions but generally they all require the belief in something preposterous.

Exactly. People take things way to personally and think that it is they who is being disrespected/attacked/criticized when it is in fact their beliefs.

And there's Michelle... one of my all time favorite Atheists!

Love her!

Like how you just lumped atheists together?

It is the atheist's strong sense of wonder and curiosity that brings him or her to challenge narrow-minded unjustified notions about the world.

An atheist simply refuses to deny the obvious. An atheist is someone who takes a critical look at the religious creationist ideas about the universe and comes to the conclusion that these claims are absurd.

The atheist will not tell the AIDS ravaged people of the sub-Saharan that contraception is sinful.

Atheists will not fill the streets setting fire to buildings and killing people over satirical cartoons.

Atheists will not advocate for mythology to be taught in science class.

Atheists look at the world critically and base their actions on the best available evidence


It's the same with Agnostics & Deists I assume

I'd just be grateful that people don't lump me, being an atheist, with the rude, abnoxious, disrespectful behavior I see on here.

lump, lump, lump....

I agree, what matters is the message. And the message some of you send, on purpose or not, is that you are aggressively disrespectful. And people don't like that. Your message is lost under the resentment your language causes. Now, so we are clear, I mean "your" in the sense of agressive and disrespectfull people.



I'm not talking about YOU all the time. I'm talking about what some athiests have done and said on this board, things that make it easier for some people to dislike athiests.



Of course not. But I will debate the effects of religion, not really the religion's core itself. And when i do find myself in a position where I need to point out something i don't like about a religion, I try to do as inoffensively as possible, so that my message gets out, instead of being burried under negativity and ill feelings.

I'll tell a Mormon that science proves that Native Americans aren't lost Isreaelites. I won't tell them that their religion is garbage and that they are gullible and stupid. Surely, you concede there is a difference? Between you and I, I actually do believe that Mormons are very shady and their particular brand of religion is the result of the world's longest "long con," but when talking to someone I know is a Mormon, I would not put it that way, because what is that going to get either one of us, except into a fight?



I agree to an extent. But if you tell someone that you don't respect their beliefs, be prepared for them to feel negatively toward you and yours.
If you want to be allowed to NOT believe in God, you have to allow others their belief IN God.

and what you've just said is that someone's beliefs are not worthy of respect. THERE'S another answer to the OP question. People don't like other people who think that their beliefs, and by enxtension, themselves, are not worthy of respect.

Atheists will so have mythology taught in class...I've never heard ONE opposed to Greek myths and legends.

Please don't make atheists sound so holier than thou, I know plenty that are dumber than dirt and don't give a second thought to anything but where the next party is going to be.

HHHHEEEEYYYYYY I am still here you know..Oh wait your not on about me but you described me so well.

They said in SCIENCE class.



there's dumb people on both sides of the fence.

One could just as well make a list of things lumping athiest together, that athiests do. It would be just as big a sweeping generalization and be just as unfair.

I used to believe, after all, that Athiests just live and let live and that only religious extremists felt the need to spout off their philosophy.

Yes ,you are right.

Religion taught in school is mandatory over here. But it isn't stated as fact, it's presented as a story, just like other myths. I think this is fine.

Its all in the presentation

Religion is/was part of our culture and entwined into our history. There was no escaping it.................

It's a rude awakeing, isn't it?

You can't escape it...

Need an escape ?

Come to germany...you can escape much better !! You can't escape Atheism either

No I don't "believe" someones beliefs are worthy of respect in all cases.

This is what we did in Europe and now we are infiltrated with terrorists & Jhadists, fathers that have their daughters murdered because they slighted their father's honor,we have a neo-nazi political party. Pedophiles "believe" they should be able to have sex with children......

Racism is a belief. When people deem themselves "gods chosen people" this is religious racism.

I could go on but I'm lazy.

NO I NEED NOT RESPECT SOMEONE'S BELIEF. (especially if it's illogical)

I may accept it but i need not respect it. It's not a living entity. It's just a thought.

But i do respect some beliefs if they are good for the person & others well-being. I can "choose" to respect the belief but I don't "need" to.

Yes,what do you think of the debate held about Human nature, between him and Michel Foucault? as a Hs educator and having a few freinds with masters in linguistics etc etc.. this is a common e'tude amoungst us ...LOL

It's often mentioned in here in a shocked tone (if tone can be perceived in here) "Why are there so many rude atheists in here. In my life the atheists I know are all respectful and mellow"

Yeh in my day to day life I am a pretty easygoing mellow atheist. My incredulity is stretched on a daily basis regarding religious belief, like imagine if your boss was saying "Today we celebrate the birth of the giant purple moss eating tooth fairy" and you, just getting along in your daily life, have to go "Wow how wonderful, what a grand celebration hurrah hurrah"

It comes out as disrespect in here but I think it is more an overload of incredulousness. Rather than debating the finer points of giant purple moss eating tooth fairy's wisdom on life you just wanna go sometimes "AAAARRGGGHHHH it is all RUBBISH"! Which I agree is a bit inappropriate and must be confronting to believers.

Exactly, Wombat, it is often in the critique that we derive what is known about a construct, its value reveals itself often in this manner ..this is well known in Physics ( reductionism) amoungst the many other ways to understand something....Aristotelian thought as interesting as it is, it only touches the surface in awareness and insights , religion is a surface peek at best or an incomplete understandng., it excludes half the human essence. ....

while not an atheist , yes atheists will have mythology taught in class - as Myth , not science unless you want to view it from a social studies aspect - what cultures belived in such myths , the politics of the time ect.................. so why would they be opposed to teaching Myths? Myths tell alot about the psychology of people.

sure there are dumb athiests who give no thought to anything just as there are dumb christians , muslims , jews , buddhists ect.. and christians have been acting holier than thou since it's conception along with all the other religions.

People dislike atheists out of sheer ignorance. Call it a slow realization but modern life has made more atheists, and those that believe failed to pay attention. Here is what I mean, fourteenth century, not a lot of atheists...why? If you said so you were branded a heretic and killed. Lo these many millenia later, we have science as a daily reminder from our cell phones to the computers we use to post on that technology gives us answers that leave out god. That makes for many more people that question belief systems, and the fact that you can't kill atheists anymore (thank goodness) means they are out there. We also live in a country where we have freedom of religion and speech. This also means that those atheists can say they don't believe! Isn't it great!?

Having said that you have a few holdovers from the "red scare" that feared atheists as communists or vice versa, and they were out to keep you or your loved ones from finding eternal salvation. Of course that silly, you either believe or you don't, and atheists aren't out to get you not to believe, more like educate yourself on how the system works and THEN see if you still believe. But that nasty public opinion from that time still holds sway and its unfortunate. Atheists are like everyone else except they don't go to church (which strangely enough a lot of believers don't either, how funny is that??) Those people who rabidly hate atheists basically are showing blatant ignorance for that which they do not understand nor wish to try.

QUOTE (Neognosis @ Dec 13 2007, 11:10 PM) "I agree, what matters is the message. And the message some of you send, on purpose or not, is that you are aggressively disrespectful. And people don't like that. Your message is lost under the resentment your language causes. Now, so we are clear, .. I'm talking about what some athiests have done and said on this board, things that make it easier for some people to dislike athiests. I agree to an extent. But if you tell someone that you don't respect their beliefs, be prepared for them to feel negatively toward you and yours. If you want to be allowed to NOT believe in God, you have to allow others their belief IN God. and what you've just said is that someone's beliefs are not worthy of respect. THERE'S another answer to the OP question. People don't like other people who think that their beliefs, and by enxtension, themselves, are not worthy of respect."
QUOTE Momentarylapseofreason "No I don't "believe" someones beliefs are worthy of respect in all cases. This is what we did in Europe and now we are infiltrated with terrorists & Jhadists, fathers that have their daughters murdered because they slighted their father's honor,we have a neo-nazi political party. Pedophiles "believe" they should be able to have sex with children......
Racism is a belief. When people deem themselves "gods chosen people" this is religious racism...."

1 Sometimes, as in the case of fundamental Christians or Muslims, it is not just a difference of opinion on God and dogma or outright (polite or rude, quiet or agressive) denial of their God. Your livelihood and, with Islam, your very life can depend on what they think of your being an atheist.

2. On calling religous texts and beliefs 'garbage': rude and sometimes dangerous, but not confined to atheists.
All religious texts should be examined minutely and in the light of new discoveries in archeology and science. If a religion cannot withstand the scrutiny, it fears the discovery of truth that will set their adherents free.

3 Biblical studies have gone on for a long time, thanks to the Germans, and no thanks to the Vatican who conceal too much and zapped too many theologians. Much has been found to be self-serving invention, not that fundamentalists will listen to this. And today almost no physical maiming and killing goes on in the name of Christianity. Although some irritatingly aggressive proslytization still carries on.
Islamic is only now open to such extensive study worldwide, and seeing how the revelations are stark enough to warrant incredulity - what if both Mohamad and the Koran are found to be terribly flawed?

We are all entitled to our downright superstitions. But when those beliefs intrude into the lives of others in such a fundamental way it is the right of atheists and anyone else to examine what makes that religion and its people tick and put a tock in it.

There sure are..never said there wasn't. I simply don't want people to have too high of an expectation of me being an atheist. I don't have the time nor the desire to be as insighful, intuitive, blah, blah, blah as it was being rumoured we were as a whole. Religion is just nonexistent to me.

I have enough on my plate at the moment.