I'd tell you if it was on topic, but it's not. So start a new thread if you're really interested.

WoW, I'm surprised Atheism has drawn such a crowd, it's not really what we desire. You don't ever turn on a t.v. set and see an Atheist preaching out to people to give up there belief system However I can tell you, I turn on the boob tube on a Sunday and all I get is the Christian happy face that is stating all is well as long as you accept god. I think Atheists are frowned apon not because we don't believe in your god, but we don't believe in any god. That isolates us to a point that we rarely make an issue of it. Yes some Atheists can be aggressive and insensitive, but that is really not what we want. Everyone has the same right to believe what they want no matter what can or can't be proven. It's called faith for a reason. I choose to put my faith in mankind itself, and hold nothing higher then my fellow man/women ( have to be PC correct) I have never seen nor heard of a true Devinne intervention, but I hear everyday how people help people. I look at it this way, we can sit back and accept things as god's will or we can stand up and change things to better mankind. I will not look for salvation nor spend my time in worship of something that can not fix or help a situation. I look to all my brothers and sisters for that (that means everyone) I don't get on my knees and pray for things to get better or pray for my mother to be healthy. I do what I can in the moment and look to myself for guidance above all else. As only I can make a difference. Not a book, not praying, not putting 20 bucks in a collection plate nor asking my politicians to make things easier. Atheism is about one's self and what they can do to help others in need. Atheists don't care about your religion or beliefs, we believe in mankind as that is the only thing we can truly be sure of.

Ok now I have to get back to watching the news, you can never get enough religion

Edit: this was not directed towards anyone, just my 2 cents

One realisation I have slowly consolidated over the last few years of my life is the extent to which I accord respect for religions. It's almost involuntary for me. Lately I have been questioning this "unquestioning" behaviour. Why do religions automatically expect respect? Here, Neo is emphasising the aggressiveness of some atheists, but again we see the word hiding in there, re-enforcing the idea...

I love the physical representaions of religion; the art, the georgous duomos, cathedrals, synaogues, minarets, the music - and I used to accord repect on the basis that so many have been so moved by such a ludicrous idea, that you kinda have to cut them some slack. But more and more I think that is fooling myself - after all, the most enduring and impressive things were created by people who believed such nonsense that no modern person can do more than giggle at them; druids and thier beliefs don't gain this automatic respect and they (apparently) were responsible for the creation of stone henge and other monolithic beauty. The Egyptians, the Minoans, the Ancient Greeks and the Romans, all created surpassingly beautiful things, but no-one respectfully holds off having a poke at Zeus, Pan, Baccus or Thoth, do they?
I guess I don't see why we should be any more respectful of todays ludicrous beliefs.

Compline,Silverthong & dogshead, great posts >great insights !!

It's easy to RESPECT your insights & intellect

The Silver Thong' date='Dec 13 2007, 08:21 PM' post='2036472'] " ... I choose to put my faith in mankind itself, and hold nothing higher then my fellow man/women ( have to be PC correct) 1. I have never seen nor heard of a true Devinne intervention, but I hear everyday how people help people. I look at it this way, 2. we can sit back and accept things as god's will or we can stand up and change things to better mankind. I will not look for salvation nor spend my time 3. in worship of something that can not fix or help a situation. I look to all my brothers and sisters for that (that means everyone) I don't 4. get on my knees and pray for things to get better or pray for my mother to be healthy. I do what I can in the moment and look to myself for guidance above all else. As only I can make a difference. Not a book, not praying, not putting 20 bucks in a collection plate nor asking my politicians to make things easier. 5. Atheism is about one's self and what they can do to help others in need..."

1. Does not mean others who are not usually considered liars have not seen and/or experienced what they consider to have been divine intervention
2. We can stand up and work hard at changing things for the better for mankind even as we choose to pray that the work is blessed and made easier and successful - in the Old Testament we are advised "Put thy shoulder to the wheel and push!" Prayer should not be a substitue for work. Ora et labora - Prayer and work.
3. Those with faith believe that Divine help may be sought when things are even hopeless and miracles are possible ... ultra positive thinking even as science and medicine go to work. Most medical people have stories called 'spontaneous healing' which have baffled them ... people who have prayed desperately sometimes know otherwise.
4. Humility before God coupled with absolute trusting faith has worked for many
5. Atheists, being people, come in all forms. You write as one who would be a good friend to have under most circumstances.

I think many praoblems arise from blurring the line between religion and extreme views and misuse of religion. If an extremeist group rears up, one where blind belief has been nurtured and directed towards hate and violence of course this should be spoken out against. the sad backlash of this is that many then go so far as to become angry towards religion. The sections that preach or that misuse religous convicion range from annoying to dangerous but religion doens't intrinsicly have to be these things. It is what some people make of them. When responding to these issues it is important to respond to the issues that are dangerous and not condemn religious conviction s a whole. A few here have said why should I respect these views why X and Y have been done in the name of them. It is far from that simple, we cannot create a blanket rule for religous belief because it varies as much as each individual. Therefore i will give respect to all beliefs unless there is something else within them i find offensive. It is not the religion though that offends me but a social idea of an individual or a group that is being stated in the name of that religion. To over react and become disrespectful to all religous beliefs is to create an unneccecary divide in our society where there is resentment on both sides. This in itself can breed these less palatable extreme views. Those of us who wish to avoid the hatred and danger that fundamental groups can inflict need to stand together and respect each other no matter if they believe in god, god's or no one..

there are both rational and stupid people from all denominations and as society currently stands we must accept there are many cultures and beliefs and not all such are a bad thing.

I completely agree

Good post tipsy.

I can accept some beliefs but when I see flaws I feel the need to debate them. Don't know why ? My son does this too>he even gets good grades for debating /challenging his teacher. I don't just argue over religion though.
I learn alot too as I am corrected in my convictions/assumptions.

I feel I think too much and wish I could just turn it off more often. It's drains me sometimes & is annoying to some people.
When I get back to the States I'm going to spend alot of time outdoors, work out & study and this will distract me somewhat from thinking about all this "deep" stuff. I think I'll go shopping at the mall,like the other gals I know. LOL!! It could be fun

'tipsy_munchkin' " ... The sections that preach or that misuse religous convicion range from annoying to dangerous but religion doens't intrinsicly have to be these things. It is what some people make of them..."

It is always people who have to practice the religion and pervert it. But it is difficult to distinguish religious conviction and practice from the religion itself. And even within the religion people disagree about what the definition of a Jew, Christian, Buddhist etc is.
While I agree with your sentiments that veer towards tolerance and understanding, religions are so easily downright dangerous, particularly to those who are marginalised or at a point in their lives where they are vulnerable.
Oh the numbers of people who have been drawn to "Jesus loves you. WE love you" ... and are then lost in a cult where their money and all their future earnings go into a community fund administered by the Leader and his/her cohort. Leaders can be from Hinduism, Buddhism or any other religous group. If the Leader was Jim Jones, hundreds drank poison and died. Followers of the guru Ragneesh involved their children in sexual practices. Supposedly celibate Buddhist monks and respected imams of Islam con vulnerable girls into sexual intercourse. Satanic practices involve animal sacrifice, and in Britain and parts of Europe, Africa and just about around the world, child sacrifice - there are too many reports of this to discount the possibility. And there are many millions of the billion Muslims who believe that the world has to become Muslim and will kill infidels to make this happen, knowing that they, as martyrs, will instantly and into eternity get heavenly rewards.

I am not going to limit my discussion to what does and does not please you, or anybody else.

I completely understand your points Compline but it is important to differentiate these situations from the many of people who's religous convictions in no way challenge our social morals. I know many people with a stong belief in God but they would not condone any of the acts you mention. While it can be hard at times to distinguish the religion from these extreme examples there is a very definate difference. With such complex issues as these each situation has to be treated on an individual basis and if possible not tied to an entire faith and all those who practice it. Often those of a certain religion themselves condemn the extreme actions of others that tarnish the perception of that faith. As you stated many cults prey upon the vulnerable and many issues arise when there is blind belief especially in cultures with a less broad education. These are specific issues that should be discussed and addressed. A cruel act done in the name of Faith though should not be confused with faith being an entirely bad thing as it can also help many people in times of need.There are those who have better dealt with grief due to their faith in God for example. If someone was desperate and scared i would not begrudge them prayer that would be cruel. religion is something that is not going to disappear form our society which is why it is so important for us to be able to distinguish the basic faith from the actions of a few twisted souls.

I understand your point I have always found blind faith a terrifying concept as it can be so dangerous especially when those leading the way are corrupt. It can be used to cause great harm and as you said to prey upon those who are vulnerable. For some though it is an essential part of daily life and as long as no harm is being done I would not wish to be disrespectful or deny them their right to believe exactly as they please.

'tipsy_munchkin' date='Dec 14 2007, 05:58 AM' post='2037038'] " ... There are those who have better dealt with grief due to their faith in God for example. If someone was desperate and scared i would not begrudge them prayer that would be cruel... I have always found blind faith a terrifying concept as it can be so dangerous especially when those leading the way are corrupt. It can be used to cause great harm and as you said to prey upon those who are vulnerable. For some though it is an essential part of daily life and as long as no harm is being done I would not wish to be disrespectful or deny them their right to believe exactly as they please."

Fully agree that people are entitled to believe as they please and that faith in God gives comfort and strength to many.

Are there any religions that are so 'bad' they should not be practised?

Atheists: since you do not believe in God, then Satanism also is not a problem? Apart from animal and child sacrifice, of course.

Then don't expect any respect for your lack of belief, which I myself find ludicrous.



Good Lord... You can come off your cross now, Wombat. Nobody is saying you can't talk about things that "don't please" me or anyone else. What I am suggesting is that if you want to have any chance at changing someone's mind, or getting them to consider your point seriously and objectively, you might want to try a little tact.

if you don't want to be tactfull, and you wish to be agressive and disresctfull, you're welcome to do that too. But don't be surprised when those tactics get you ignored or even worse, get you and your viewpoint scorned.

I learned this the hard way arguing with fundamentalist christians on another forum. I've found that the discussion is far more productive when I choose my language with a little bit more tact and when I don't behave agressively and insultingly.

I doubt respect is something that is being striving for. I'd say it's more along the lines of aknowledgement of reason and evidence. Which in turn might cause respect, but that's irrelevant.

Religion is demanding respect.

The way in which I say something (which you only consider to be a personal attack against you, though it isn't) does not affect the truthfulness (or the lack thereof) of what I say.

Aggressive and insulting? What posts of mine are you talking about?

Wombat, I don't know how it could be made any simpler to you.

I'll give you an example of what I said. "I've got too much on my plate at the moment. " I could have just as easily said, "You people need to get a life, quit worrying about what other people are doing and take a look in your own back yard before you judge others." Both statements say essentially the same thing, but people will react totally different to the two. The fact that I didn't use your own words against you is a noncombative tactic...very easy to do.

When I see people interacting the way you do I assume that you are a teenager that hasn't learned the fine art of communication or you are just childish, stubborn and blind as to how you look to other people. Neither of those statement were meant as an insult, they are merely an observation and not an attack on you. I would be willing to bet they didn't set well with you though.

For the last time, Wombat, I'm not talking about YOU specifically, I'm talking about the agressive Athiests that give the rest of you a bad name.

Although wasn't it you that I got into it about calling the bible "garbage" on another thread? I don't remember. Maybe not. In any case, please try to remember that "you" is used in a general sense, not meaning "you, wombat."





You're opinion is stupid, ignorant, shallow and sad.


Does that make you feel a certain way? (I don't really think that about you, btw)


What if I said "wombat, I think you are missing something. consider that your idea doen't take into consideration this....."

Do you think that one way might leave you more open to my ideas, and the other might just make you dislike me and shut down to the possibility that I might have a good point?

Or would you only CONSIDER that a personal attack against you?

Surely, you see what I'm getting at when some athiests are aggressive and insulting.

I've got too much on my plate at the moment does not at all begin to say the same, and will not even nearly carry your point through in a discussion. There is really no reason to be terrorized by people who demand politicial correctness just because their logic is too weak to withstand criticism which goes anywhere beyond baby talk and continual consolation.

And no, that does not offend me in the slightest, for indeed it is exactly what anyone else might say without the worthless insincere apologising.

Oh, I see.

If that view was based on some reason, I would accept it as honest criticism and re-evaluate my own view.

If it is just an unsubstatiated opinion I would just counter the argument.

If the message is the same, it really makes little difference to me how it is put forth.

I would not consider "your opinion is stupid, ignorant, shallow and sad" a personal attack, because it just attacks my opinion, which may well be all of those things. Of course I would like to know the basis of the statement.

I'm going to put that in a seperate file for safe keeping.

If you truely believe that the way the message is put forth has no effect on how it is received, you and I have reached an impass.

I does have an effect on how it's recieved - as you so clearly demonstrated with your personal outrage - but it has zero effect on the message itself, which is the entire point, to which even you admitted when I questioned how else I should phrase garbage (which is already putting it mildly considering).

It is worth noting, however, that I do not in fact go around insulting people, and neither does anyone else I've seen on the forums so far. But I do retain my right to get to the point when dealing with dealing with issues I feel strongly about e.g. creationists (or in your case, it seems, mormons) without the fear that someone might feel like they are being attacked.

Critisizing someones belief is like telling them their kid is ugly,unruly and dumb. Same reaction.

But it is a mindset you are attacking but they hold it as dear as their children. (except we know the children are for real)

I feel religion is like an ill body & needs to be stripped naked, and every part of it's body needs to be expected closely (DNA test, x-rays & all). (I'll behave>I'm thinking worse)

Ok, here's the problem... when you say that... given that faith and religion is a part of that person and who they are, is like saying that individual is ill and needs to be commited and stripped naked and deprogrammed.

I mean, you'd be hacked if I said to you "Agnostics or Atheists need to be studied, stripped naked to see why they don't believe in God, afterall, a vast majority of people on this earth do believe in God(s) of some form... what's wrong with you?"

I mean, afterall, I'm a religious person.. I hear and feel God's word, why don't you? Perhaps because it's not a part of who you are. I'm happy to live with that ... I'm assuming you are too.

Yet, you've just assumed I need to be dissected. Fine, do that, but only if we can disect you too. I'm fair that way.

What's good for the goose...

Ladies i will gladly volunteer myself for the good of bringing Athiests and Christians and other faiths together for the good of all mankind. Let the analysing begin.


* TAKE MeEeEeeeEeeEEEeEEEeeee*




Just joking ( must watch out for my partner )



I think a lot of people can get sensitive over what they believe in. I have been know to get like that which I do not mean to, but I do think that most of us need to be able to suck it up and stop expecting people to tip toe around everyone's just encase we make them cry or angry.



No it is not the same as insulting someone's child.
The child is a living breathing person who can experience sadness and pain a belief is nothing it might be important to people but it cannot have its feelings hurt.
If you say to me Atheism sucks and is a big load of garbage I might argue about how it is not garbage but it is not going to devastate me and make me run off and cry in a corner because its feelings might be hurt.
And if Wombat decides not to put smilies faces in his posts or just tell things the way they are he is not attacking the person but the belief itself which cannot get hurt by his views and opinions, and if God or Gods do get angry at this then they can use there almighty power to smite him down with flaming pigs of DOOM or tell him in a big booming voice that he has annoyed them and poke him in the eye with a invisible finger.

Atheism is not perfect and is considered a complete pile of garbage to some does it upset me to the point where I want to cry and rock backwards and forwards in a corner NO does it annoy me a little yes.

edit spelling mistake

In all honesty, dissecting someone's beliefs to the point that you think you will bring them over to your way of thinking is proselyting, atheist or no. Feeling the need to denigrate what someone holds dear seems to show a lacking of something in your own life that makes you lash out at them and makes me wonder if there isn't a bit of jealousy.

I'm going to get raked over the coals now.

I'm not gonna rake ya sistah!

I would think dissecting someone's belief's would be best used to understand that person and their belief so that it would be easier not to convert them over but to get on better with that person and belief so that you know where you both are coming from and can understand each others feelings. That way is much better because everyone is happy.








It's okay to hold it dear but it is not going to be hurt by it.

Whew...someone understands me...*sniff*

It can hurt when not approached properly.

edit:I'm still having a problem with the quote thing because of my own ignorance

Sometimes peoples self esteem is built on what they believe, it gives them an identity - so they can't help but take it personally.

Uh no, it's a little more than that.

I had terrific self-esteem when i was an atheist, I have terrific self-esteem after I was "convinced"

What tickes me off is the number of non-believers who insist either flat out or rudely ellude to my being brainwashed, stupid, uneducated, lacking in scientific knowlege, sheep, my personal favorite... in need of a shrink because I'm dellusional...

Thanks, they can keep their comments to themselves. None of those things have anything to do with my faith or religion. they're personal attacks on my intelligence or my mental condition.

If people are going to go there... they can most certainly spare me with their opinions.

It's just as offensive to me that people assume, because I'm an atheist, I waste my time picking religion apart and trying to get to the bottom of why you are so dellusional, MissMel...

I sorry not what I wanted to say really hence delete LOL

Relax! I was more just musing to myself - wasn't indicating anyone. I just said sometime, and I include myself in the statement I made.

I personally will never trash someones beliefs just because mine are different. It's not as if an Atheist wants to save your soul or spread the gospel. However Atheists will not back from a discussion that berates what an Atheist believes either. I personally will not take a sermon from any religion with out adding my 2 cents to the discussion, it's only Fair that both sides have a chance to voice what they believe. An Atheist doesn't want you to abandon your beliefs but to understand what there belief is all about.

I know many many Christians and many know little if any of the bible and where and how it originated.

For example most Christians don't believe that the Bible was not even in the works till 90 yrs after the death of Christ. In that time the average life span was about 30-40 years. So we are talking about a book that was three generations old and just getting started. The Romans kept excellent records and it took 90 yrs for the first documentation of him/Jesus to even become a written record. My logic states that there should have been many and I mean many documents that would have been written about such an important event.

Ok now I sound like I'm trying to convert people but I'm not. I'm stating a fact, simple as that. Not saying Jesus didn't do what he did but stating a fact. I find that alot of Christians ( I use Christianity as I know more about it than other religions, sorry about that) When debating there points they have the liberty to say this or that was not meant to be taken at face value then others will take versus and say they are what they are because they are to be taken as the truth. The thing with the Bible is that it is manipulated to what you were taught or to what others think you should be taught. Religion confuses me and I find it to much to ingest when one truly looks at it. I am secure in my beliefs and well when I die and if I'm wrong will god truly shun me for ever. From what I hear I will forever burn or forever stand in awe of "god" neither one sounds very good to me.

To add to what Michelle posted I find religions try to break down other religions much more than any Atheist ever could.

Well, I have to say that was the sweetest coal raking I have ever gotten and I would have replied tomorrow.

I got to read it....na na na

Damn it, your quick I did repost what I said, word for word but I had addressed it to you and that was my booboo. Next time Michelle, next time......

Oh trust me, I'm relaxed.

I know you weren't indicating anyone... I didn't have you in mind when I crafted that response. It was a general statement.

And you'll also find that I include myself as well (good heavens, read all 30 pages of another active thread here, I can be quite self-debasing. And I'm incredibly good at self-righteousness and generally point that out LOL

LIke I said, I'm fair that way. I have no grand illusions, but I don't take kindly to people calling me or elluding to me being dellusional or a moron. It bugs me, rational or not. I'm an A-type extroverted personality, always have been always will be... at least I'm somewhat aware of it. haha.

Actually, there was a thread in General about personality types called "Meyers & Briggs" started by TrueThat.... really really interesting stuff. I'd recommend people look at that thread and take the test. It shows how truly skewed the viewpoints on UM are. UM seems to attract the most rare personality types... I did a tally a few weeks ago that was very telling...

I wonder what convinced you to believe in religion?

MWah ha ha yes I am a type A too - I was just feeling particularly serene and beatific when I posted that self esteem stuff. I think I had high serotonin levels from a big meal

We get told:


We are going to Burn in Hell

we are immoral

we are Blind

we are demons

we are Lost lamb's

we are evil people

we are wicked people

we are monsters

we are fools

That is just for not believing in God.

Most the time those comments don't bother us and we can just ignore it but not when we have been told the 67th time.

I wish believers would !! With Atheists making unsubstantiated claims such as "there is no god" they can be easily challenged because it is stated as a fact/ belief. There is no proof either way if there is a god or not.

When someone claims they do not know if there is a god or not, then they are Agnostic & you know this (some don't)

So please do dissect agnosticism >this is exactly what we desire>for you believers to closely examine our skepticism.


Oh yeah and when I believed ,I also heard & felt god's word. the intoxication wore off when reason & deep self-examination (dissecting of desires& hopes) took over. My intellect/inner psychotherapist led me away from christianity....blame the restless ,skeptical brain .It's my babysitter/gatekeeper/entertainment center

These beliefs amuse me>and that is what they are. They give me a perverse sense of pleasure in their absurdity. It's not nice but it's honest.

I'm "definitely not " putting your intellect into question. You are one of the smartest,kindest on this forum IMO ! You have your reasons for your faith.

I'm just a smart........ass ( I have a George Carlin mentality-crude,rude & lewd)

The Chief

Logic and reason are rather poor tools for the study of religion. They require inputs on which all can agree and there are very few such inputs available. They are also quite limited in scope.

In my experience, "proofs" of God tend to be circular, leading the observer right back to his starting assumptions. Combine a theistic "proof," an agnostic "proof" and an atheistic "proof" and the whole process is reduced to gibberish: no conclusion possible.

That's what I meant when I said the agnostic had the only logical basis: the evidence available does not allow a choice to be made. It's a question of inadequate data to make the process work.

And you were right about Goedel's Theorem not proving that God exists. It only proves that God MIGHT exist.
Doug

A lot of believers wrongly equate atheism with satanism which doesn't make sense because if you don't believe in God, you don't really believe in Satan either. Many believe that atheists are negative people who think people are inherently evil, which also is not true.

Also, if you have had religion ingrained into your mind your whole life - God made all that is good, believers are the chosen people, etc. - why would you like someone who thinks their whole belief system is based on fairy tales and lies?

Right, and if you read Anton LeVeys work, you'll see that all Satanists are Atheists, which means it's NOT wrong to equate satanists with Atheists. They ARE atheists.

Of course ,most atheists have the good sense not to mock the Catholic church the way satanists do... I mean come on, that's just childish.

Some atheists seem to get a cheep thrill from telling believers they're stupid and that their beliefs are fairy tales and lies... so don't get so freaked out when they in turn tell you you're gonna burn in hell... i mean after all, it's just a fairy tale right?

Modern Satanists do not believe in Satan or God they are a form of Atheist.


Curses MissMelsWell you beat me to it.

I don't hate athiests.

I don't like it when a couple of them act like nothing bad even bothers them a little bit and people are weak for feeling things.

modernsatanism.com