Perhaps, but you can't equate atheism with satanism.

Eh? Haven't met anyone like that in my life...

And it's just our luck I never did, in fact, I don't know anyone personally that would. Most of the people I run into and know, and are friendly with are just plain smarter than that.

MW,why did you post that its not good sense to mock the catholic church, why is reductionism considered childish by you, out of curiousity..


Its in the challenging of any construct we arrive at its merit and value

Because seriously mocking anything is unproductive, childish and is the least wise way of getting results. They have no need to mock catholics, they can achieve the same goals without mocking catholics, and probably do a better job.

I tend to be results oriented regardless of someones belief. The only things mocking catholicsm is netting the LeVey satanists is 1. people don't take them seriously 2. it clouds their overall message which in some parts, isn't a bad message. Those good parts are seriously reduced by the fact that they have this goofy need to mock things they don't believe in. Kinda dumb.

I never said it's the same people. I said the "reaction"

It would sound ridiculous to someone that hasn't the 1st clue about how religion and politics dont make great convo's with friends or anyone..heck you see CLEARLY how religion talks on a forum can stir trouble...yet some how you FAIL to see how in a land that mixes politics with religion..can be a sore and touchy subject and it is BEST to stay clear of it...how droll of you...very droll

Its not just in friendships...were I live..its everything..I'll show you

Employers do not allow ANYONE to talk about religion in the work place...it is a serious issue over here and if you knew ANYTHING at all about - N.Irleland politics you would understand..but see thing is............you dont OBVIOUSLY!!

I wouldn't dare sit and talk about religion differences to my friends because I RESPECT them...

If I was ever against gays..then WHY would I go out of my way to tell a person who has just became friends with me..who happens to announce he or she is gay..how SMART would it be to tell them to their face - I hate gays??<<-------------------see you on one point said you wouldnt do it..then for some mad reason you think it would be just DANDY to sit ant talk religion differences to others that will or could take it seriously to heart...WOW where does it...................END???


I think its best I remain tactful...I may be a lot of things but DARN IT I still have the ounce of wit I was born with

Thanks for the clarity...

I am tactful to a certain extent...if i wasn't..then I wouldn't be here PERIOD

so thanks for taking the time to seek my attention...congrats

A friend is not a person
Who is taken in by sham.
A friend is one who knows our faults
And doesn't give a damn.
Doug

And wow you are another that dont understand politics ..thanks for that

'MissMelsWell' date='Dec 17 2007, 12:30 PM' post='2043682'] " ...Of course ,most atheists have the good sense not to mock the Catholic church the way satanists do... I mean come on, that's just childish.... Some atheists seem to get a cheep thrill from telling believers they're stupid and that their beliefs are fairy tales and lies... so don't get so freaked out when they in turn tell you you're gonna burn in hell... i mean after all, it's just a fairy tale right?"

The Catholic Church is 2000 years old and, among innumerable good works for mankind at large, has been also responsible for the most unspeakable things: easy fodder for anyone. For obvious reasons, it is most often publicly attacked by Protestants, militant agnostics and Catholics who have converted to other faiths or left the faith for other reasons. The attack by Satan is more often covert. Muslims prefer to dialogue with Catholics rather than any other Christian/Western group.

If Catholicism is the true faith - one sure path to God - it will stand the tests of time and critics. For me, to be a true Catholic is unending service to God and Man, prayer, sacrifice and suffering, but always aided by the sacraments and the Eucharist, the Blessed Mother, Padre Pio and a host of saints and my guardian angel. But it is not at all being dismal morose ... laughter and joy should abound. I ain't there yet, not even close.

And today, no Catholic of good sense would dare tell you that you are going to burn in hell.

Who the heck is Man to judge such things?

Oh trust me Compline, I'm very well aware of what being Catholic entails. My former father-in-law (whom I'm still very close to) used to be a Jesuit Priest. My sister is Catholic.

No worries, I'm a Quaker, we get attacked by both Catholics and Protestants. LOL. Although honestly, I've never had another Christian tell me I'm going to hell (which I don't believe in anyway) oddly, I have had atheists/agnostics tell me I'm going to hell, how weird is that? But mostly from other Christians, I get the distinct impression they feel sorry for me... but I can live with that.

I also attend a Mennonite church occasionally. I will also say that many of them, while incredibly gracious and wonderful, have expressed their concern for my lack of belief in water baptism, Catholics have expressed the same concern. That doesn't bother actually, and even given that I've never had any of them tell me I'm going to hell.

So I'm not sure where all these atheists keep hearing they're going to hell. There are actually a large number of Chrstians that don't even believe in literal Hell.

I worship Mictian the aztec god of death how come the aztecs had all the cool sounding god names?

i can manage without the cute bed time stories before i go to sleep at night.

lol @ the george bush quote..

not sure why they hate us .. 'cause we're a threat? we're different? have different views on things that most people would like to remain the same .. nicely wrapped in stories passed down through generations to make us feel like we're always watched over .. safe and never alone

every time i've told people i don't believe in god i get the same reaction .. complete SHOCK, a little bit of fear, and i sense a little bit of pity ..

they should direct all of those emotions toward the people who pretend to believe .. who go to religious gatherings just cause they feel it's the normal thing to do

Never claimed to understand politics. But I can see why people in Ireland would want to be circumspect.
That's just a little piece of cowboy philosophy I picked up out in Colorado.

I don't think that the far-right Christian community even understands that there's a difference in these various philosophies. To them, there's only "Christians" and devil-worshippers. Some of them even denigrate other, less-radical Christian churches as non-Christian. The distinction between atheist and agnostic is a little much for some folks to get their minds around.
Doug

A question I have for you Athiests is this: Do you want to be accepted by people who have a religion, or do you just not care that some of them don't like you?

I dont really care. Each to their own.

I dont gererally divide the people i know by wether they have faith or not so for me this question doens't entirely make sense. You give the choice of wanting to be accepted or not caring, well neither. I take people on an individual basis. if someone dislikes me or does not accept me merely because i do not follow the same faith then they are surely narrow minded. Most people I know who have religious beliefs have not judged me as a person based this factor. I have no dirivng desire to try and make people accept who I am and never force my beliefs on others. i think your questions involve huge generalisations.

Your quite right. If someone tells me I am going to burn in hell I would not take it that seriously.



We agree on something Beckys mom!!!




No, thank you. I have learned a lot by listening to your rantings on this thread. Thank you very much.



P.S. I know you will not be able to resist replying to this..........

I don't have an incredibly strong need for approval from the so called 'moral majority' so no.

I don't care if they accept us or not and I don't care if they don't like us I just wish to get on with my life without having religion try to impose itself on me and others without our concent even if it does not mean too be imposing.

Speaking as an agnostic, not an atheist: I work with church people on items of common interest all the time - things like a soup kitchen for the needy, a homeless shelter and I often stand with a peace group that opposes the current "battle" in Iraq. Most church people are good, decent people. I feel accepted by them; most of them know my philosophy and it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Where I have a problem is when religion is used as a weapon. A group up in Kansas disrupts funerals of fallen soldiers, claiming that their deaths are God's punishment for allowing gays to have equal rights. Even though they have been successfully sued, they continue their obnoxious ways. Fortunately, a motorcycle club - Rolling Thunder - provides an honor guard for people killed in action and the demonstrators haven't had the guts to go up against them (Apparently, they haven't got the courage to actually suffer for their faith.).

In most places in the U.S., churches are exempt from local taxes, yet make use of water, sewer, electricty, police, fire and other services, forcing me to pay for the freeloading with higher taxes. If church and state are to be separate, then it's time to end this special privilege.

Recently, we have seen tax money appropriated for "Faith Based Initiatives" - this amounts to governemnt financial support for religion. Again, something that is against the First Amendment.

I think most of these outright violations of law originate from an extremely arrogant attitude on the part of some religious leaders based on their own personal beliefs that they know what God wants and God wants them to steal from the public coffers, or wants them to preach hatred from the pulpit, or wants the US government to provoke war in the mid-east so as to bring on the millenium.

These individuals cannot tell their own will from God's will.

To answer your question: I don't care if I offend these folks. I hope to help end their abuse of authority and I don't expect they're going to like me for it.
Doug

I agree completely.

And this speaks to another fear of some religious people....namely, that the condescending absolutism of some athiests might someday make it difficult or even illegal to practice a religion.

At first I used to think Atheism would have been better if it was the only thing in this world but now I just realise that it does not matter what you believe or not believe just accept that people are different and they do not need to be pushed or egged on into something they do not want.

well.....what about those athiests that are not athiest they are agnostic

I agree.

I run a computer lab and act as network admin at a inner-city ministry. I am accepted (for the most part anyway) for my beliefs (or lack of) by the rest of the staff here. One or two resent my non-beliefs but the two Pastors that run this Ministry accept and trust my integrity without question.

I am who I am and if some one does not like me.....OH WELL.....

Do you go around at work telling the rest of the staff that their beliefs are stupid and ignorant and that they are bunch of superstitious idiots? do you scoff when they take Christmass off and use it as an opportunity to tell them how gullible they are?

I suspect not.

My point is that if you care at all about not being persecuted, you have to allow others their beliefs. You can't expect respect for your lack of belief if you don't respect their belief, no matter how ignorant you think they are.

If religion, and now non-religion, simply maintained some respect for the beliefs of others, I think we would have fewer problems.

I identify myself as an agnostic, NOT an atheist. They are not the same. As an agnostic, I simply feel that there is inadequate evidence to conclude that there is a dualistic universe. If God exists, it is in the universe of matter and energy.

An atheist knows: there is no God. An agnostic doesn't know.

See my previous post for more information.
Doug

I do not and at the same time....they do not tell me I am a sinner and going to go to hell.



Sounds like resentment of my non-beliefs.



Where and how do I think "believers are ignorant"

Please show me.
The only time I think someone is "ignorant" is when someone does not fully know and understand what they are arguing FOR OR against.



You know thats funny.....as a non-believer I have been shown more disrespect (in real time) from believers than when I was a believer from non-believers.

I have been on both sides of the fence.

Actually I am Atheist and I do not THINK a God exists I do realise though that I could be wrong.

I meant "YOU" in the generic sense of "us all."

We all have to allow others their "delusions" if we are to be allowed ours.



No, it sounds like I suspect that you and your coworkers get along because nobody is pushing their beliefs or non beliefs on anyone else, or calling anyone ignorant for having or not having those beliefs.

The uncertainty would make you an agnostic, at least, according to the definition.
Doug

Lol yeah I contemplated that but I really do strongly think that there is no God and untill proven otherwise I will still continue to think that way.

OK...that puts a different spin on things.....all good



We do respect each others belief here.....I just have this problem with falsehoods and half truths.

So do I.

But religion is based on FAITH, and by that definition, it requires, nor has, any proof.

My problem is not as much with falsehoods and half truths as it is when religion results in the harming of a real person. When a magic book from God seems to command something that hurts real people, I have to encourage people to take a step back and think about what that really means.

Until that point, I have no problem with any religion.

...so you dont think religionhas cause any problems? or hurts people?

Of course I do. That's why I wrote:



But religions also do a lot of good.

Myself, I'm not in favor of any elitist organization and I generally don't like religion, but i recognize that it is folly to make a blanket statement that all religion is bad and no religion does any good. Certainly, religion is used often to sway people to a certain point of view. But no wars have ever been fought over religion. Religion is an identifying factor, it is a justifying factor, but wars are over resources.

The belief in God can be constructive and peacefull, and people have a right to it and to whatever religion they choose, so long as no laws are broken.

It seems like some of you give religion too much credit. If all religion ceased to exist tomorrow, there would still be war, hate, mistrust, and violence. There would just be another identifying factor and justification in place.

Well he thinks that 9/11 and just about every war ever was because of resources, and not because of religion.

meh, its got the pros and cons.
its good to have faith, and believe in something, and believe you are doing right, by following what youve been taught.
but then that causes many problems, like arguing, resulting in fighting with other of different religions, because you have differetn views on it. or they both believe they are doing the right thing, by trying to convert/save the other. when really its just cause more problems for everyone.
possibly a cause to a war

ABSOLUTELY.

So why argue for Athiesm? Doesn't that do the same thing?



No war has ever been fought over religion. All wars are over resources. Always have been, always will be. Even "religious" wars like the crusades are over resources with religion as a justifying and identifying factor.

Yeah..... souls are a resource. They need harvesting.

You may be right, but alot of em were brainwashed to think they were doing it for god.

And a lot of them are "brainwashed" into thinking they're going to war for the honor and integrity of their country and government, which most of us will agree is corrupt in some fashion as well.

Wars are always about real resources... religion, patriotism, freedom and other "concepts" are only a rally point to whip up fervor and support over the real cause which is... resources.

Hence the reason I am a conscientious objector.

Oh my mthr f****** god, i cant believe you just said that lol. there has never been wars/fights on religion? have you never taken history before? like really man. resources yes, religion yes as well. both big factors, but i dont see how you can be so blind as to the problems religion has cause.
how many fights and problems with catholics and protestants from way back? in france with the wars on religion. burning people for their religious beliefs! all the stupid crusades. george bush is a little more modern one, claiming that reading the bible, god told him to go to afghanistan and iraq and fight. some people believe religion plays a part in civil wars, troubels with northern ireland, the 80 year, and the 30 year war, english civil wars, the procecution of catholics during the french revolution and apparently the taiping rebellion was a huge and bloody one due to religion.

also, i dont argue for athiesm. i dont get your point. i just am, and accept it. if someone asks, ill say no i dont bash religions just because i dont believe in one. i dont argue anything about athiesm. (well, maybe that were not all evil people i guess)

p.s. dont type back all wars/battles/fights that had nothing to do with religion, but resources. i know those ones. i dont care about them. i was just showing how religion can cause problems here. and like i stated before, it has many cons, but pros as well though.

Why do people think it's good to have faith?

"No war has ever been fought over religion. All wars are over resources. Always have been, always will be. Even "religious" wars like the crusades are over resources with religion as a justifying and identifying factor."


.. you must be kidding

“As long as there has been one true God, there has been killing in his name.”

Ugh, Thank you.
finally

Take away the God and the religion... you'll still have killing... over land, over oil, over timber, over water, over people, over taxes, over human rights...