yet those donations are not enough. they aren't close. so much for charity. alot of those ' charities' also give pennies on the dollar.

except pay taxes because you don't agree with whom it may help ? do you only give to charities you agree with ? are you discriminating in your giving ? or is the person you think your to 'love' is only people who are like minded or those you know ? I don't think this was covered by jesus.

I give about 50% of my income to charity. (it used to be closer to 60%)... and the government STILL rakes me over the coals on my taxes, even with the tax deductible contributions of 50%! I STILL write a honkin' check to the US government every single April.

You know I'd do better on my taxes and wouldn't owe anything in April if I didn't donate anything at all to charity and instead went out and bought a huge home, rental properties and spent my money on me and businesses? Oh yes... but as it stands, I don't do that. Most people do.

AND my taxes, which I'm still paying on time every single year are going to support a war machine I don't agree with.

I applaud your humanity ! I know there are people out there who do 'put their money where their mouths are' - money , time , emotion , respect. we do get it back and then some. when I was in collage we built homes for habitat for humanity. It's where I learned my basic home repair skills ! lol. god help those who live in the houses I help build ! I learned I am all thumbs as well.

I used to but don't any more (health) , but my family still does , contribute time and money to our local shelters. It a humbling experience to be working there especially over holidays in the cold here in Michigan. Father Casey Solanis is really big around here. He was an extremely humble man.

alot of social aspects don't exist in many churches even among their own congregations.

and if we were as charitable as we think we are or say we are - homelessness wouldn't exist in this country ! not even getting into other countries ! if our taxes could be used so that everyone has a place to live and health insurance wouldn't that be the right thing to do ? regardless of religion ?

some of the things that have been cut or vetoed by bushco - low income housing and education amoung that.

NEW ALBANY, IND. -- Intensifying his battle with Congress over federal spending, President Bush on Tuesday vetoed an appropriations bill for the first time, rejecting $150.7 billion in spending for school aid, healthcare and other domestic programs.

But as he complained about the cost of that bill, which would have increased spending on these programs by 4.3% over last year, Bush signed a $471-billion defense appropriations bill that pushed up military spending by more than 9.5%.



And the bill included new money for programs for low-income Americans, including job training, home heating assistance and rural healthcare.



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/po...litics-national

yep that's some christian. not.

nope - this home isn't far from me ( about 3 miles ) it was solely to lack of money. granted the economy is tanking in Michigan and tax cuts have taken place which soothe the greedy republicans. but charity giving has diminished to appalling lows.

I'll take your word for that... and yes, the economy has a lot to do with it. Like I said, I used to give roughly 60% of my income, but I've had to reduce that overall amount to about 50% just to make my own ends meet and meet my tax bill at the end of the year. That extra 10% doesn't help reduce my overall bill. Granted, I hate paying my taxes, mostly because it's appauling to me that the money is going to support a war machine I want no part of, but that's the way it is... I have to pay my taxes.

The government makes charitable giving difficult. Change THAT, and it might get better... maybe. Or maybe people will just buy more LCD TV's... hard to say.

I don't understand how the government makes charitable giving difficult. My grandmother gives to charity and doesn't write it off her taxes. she claims then she didn't give anything.

60% is alot !! make sure your able to care for yourself as well.

I think we need a system of checks and balances in giving. If we have at the very least 50 million working people in this country how much a year in taxes would be needed for low income housing ? if all adults that could contributed to a universal health plan how much would that cost per person ?

and you know who I think should over run it all ? over see the accounting and distribution ? nuns. good old fashioned nuns. If you can't trust a nun who can you trust ? lol.

I have no idea where you're getting this LT. I pay my taxes, but I also give to charitable organizations I know will benefit the people in my community and people in other parts of the country and other parts of the world. I am not going to sign up for extra taxes because like I said they don't rally go where you want them to go. I'd rather give money to organizations I know are using as much of my dollar as possible to actually help those they are intended to help.

I don't know what your problem is, but you are way off.

what experiences do you have if I may ask?

That's nice and all, but i'd be willing to bet she isn't in the tax bracket I'm in.

I could just keep my additional 50% of my income, invest it, some real estate, stocks, bonds, mutual funds etc... and lo' and behold, how much you bet I wouldn't have to pay taxes at the end of the year... I know I wouldn't. My parents do exactly that, they're in the same tax bracket I am and they get refunds... I write a check every single year to the federal government.

So ya the government makes it VERY hard for me to continue giving to charity, There are times when I just want to say "screw it" and keep my hard earned money and invest in a bunch of real estate (especially right now) stop writing a check to the war machine every April, and maybe even quit my job. Luckily, I belive strongly in the charities and endowments I work with, so I continue to do what I do regardless of what it costs me. Make no mistake, it does.

And yes, I'm able to take care of myself just fine. I deliberately purchased a very very small home, have no debt (except the almost miniscule mortgage on my house) and I live simply. FAR below what my income could afford me. It's an integral part of my faith.

I don't think there is alot of 'selfless ' giving. I think guilt is a bigger motivator. and how many give yet write it off on taxes ? that's not giving .

your right. my grandmother brings in about 2000 a month. she only gives now about 1000 to 1500 a year. Half of that to her churches charity. She used to go crazy giving it away to where it endangered her own welfare. Animals , Christian charities for other countries....... now that I'm in 'charge' of her finances I put a stop to all that and started 30 years of general repair to her home she let slide.

I am a strong believer in endowments and charities , but even they aren't always above board.

look at the crap the Salvation Army found itself in.

I'm telling you -- nuns. if you can't trust a nun your screwed. ( independant nuns )

My grandmother did the same and we had to suffer somewhat because of it. (canned food, second hand clothes). My grandma was a good soul though.

Eventually my mom saved us

Well, simply put, if I didn't write the charity off on my taxes, I'd have to give a LOT less.

I mostly work tighly with endowments. Ones I know from the inside out. There are SO many BAD charities.

Part of being a good donor is making sure that what you're giving to is 1. something you can afford. 2. that the charity is 100% honest and doing the right thing.

I don't give to a lot of different charities... but I give very generously to those that I have heavily researched.

that's very smart, I wish more people would do this

What I mean is...everyone can read a paragraph from any book even a poem..and each person will think of a different meaning or some will take more or less the same meanings but word it all differently

miss wells you give because its how you are naturally there is no reason if its to feel good it is feeding ones ego.... give anonymously make sure no one sees its you few can do this .... yes you wouldn't give to a charity and write it off that is not giving... i am pleased to see you get this.......

In my case I do not need money at all my husband makes plenty , so I give hair services for free, there aren't specifics, now some will not go for it at all but its offered....... ( my friend who owns the hair salon can call me anytime to come for free and work a shift) I don't go to the x-mas parties i asks her to donate to a charity of her choice my share... she gives me a bonus i give it away..... I already feel i'm incredible about myself so this is not required for ego food its who i am simple as that.........

I have given a full day unpaid to many employers many wouldn't consider this....


I rode a bike 7 and a half miles to work every day for a long long time to help the enviorment.... I didn't have to no one would of cared but me. (no one patted me on the back pish posh on that (silliness)....
i inherited a huge sum of money about 6 years ago, the first thing I did was give to to someone in my life who really needed it more then me on many levels...
thats just some ways...


what are your ideas, i am always open to more ..in and of itself the beauty is the person you experience yourself as.... this is not easy to convey...... and something tells me you get this....

gosh I have taken in so many homeless much to my hubby's raised eyebrow... yet he honored my request....... I have literally had 2 complete strangers show up at my door over the years asking for help, a place to stay, i opened my home no questions asked...

life can be one big give fest not to mention letting someone go ahead of you in a long line or taking the time to have a conversation with a homeless person, not judging one if they ask for a dollar even when you know they are a drug addict.. many ways..smile at everyone... hug a lot.....


I don't agree with giving what you don't feel you have to give either this only leads to resentments you can give in other ways.
Its not always about money...


.
thats easy would agree MW..
I am not gonna say how great you are IMO we all should be doing this.. and i don't post for this reason either , You asked and it seemed genuine for a change...

I can do more I just haven't thought of ways yet...

any suggestions from anyone let me know....


quite frankly, MW i dont' see this as a lack in your life...giving that is..

I don't give to feel good or feed my ego... I do it as part of the work God has set before me. I know you won't like that. But that's the truth. There's nothing ego about it, it's very very hard and even sometimes annoying work.



I don't give anonymously, I'm on the board of a foundation and my donations, by law, have to be registered, accounted for and reported on to the hospital who in turn reports to the IRS (my main endowment is a childrens hospital, all raised funds go to uncompensated care programs).



Read my statement again, I DO write it off... if I didn't, I'd have to give a lot less. About 10-14% less.

You're right BM, and some poems and some paragraphs and even some Bible passages are intended to be like that: things you read and take a particular meaning from while I read it and take a different meaning, but not everything is meant to be like that.

Let me use an analogy I have used before to describe the importance of context before.

A man breaks down the door to your house with an ax, rushes in and tells you to get out. What would you do? Why? Is this man a thief? Is he trying to kill you

Let me now add that this man is a firefighter and your house is on fire. Does that change how you would react? I bet it does. Context is always important.

What is the point of a book that can be interpreted in so many ways ,we are supposed to follow this book to achieve salvation,yet we are continually being told that we have to study it to find hidden messages and the correct meaning .It's message should be simple and not require scholarship to understand.one could spend a lifetime following your own version only to find you were wrong and all has been for naught


fullywired

The thing is, the message IS simple:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23)

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:28)

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:8-10)

But if you want to learn more than just the basic message, then you have to be willing to spend time, study, and dig deep.

If the basic message is enough to achieve salvation ,What benefit is acquired by studying and digging deeper .Seems to me it creates confusion and controversy and lets doubt creep in.If we are the result of God's workmanship ,then he needs to make another mould on account of the rejects he has produced .not many are doing good works as he intended

fullywired

I would run for my life and leave all that panicking and wondering for later...I would just get the hell out fast...never take chances ESPECIALLY if he has an axe in his hand...im mad but not that mad LMAO


What idiot would remain seated?? LOL...just run for it...the dudes got an ax and I don't take chances...so on the spare of the moment I run like feeck LOL


Don't care what he is..the man has an ax in his hand yelling at me... to get out...think about it he has an ax...it would be stupid to sit there asking questions lol ...RUN FOR IT!!!


not gonna stick around to find out lol ..only an idiot would!! all I need to see is the ax in his hand and that speaks in VOLUMES!!

Run first get safe then ask yourself WHAT?? WHY?? don't just sit there for petes sake

It is so easy to sit and ask yourself questions - what does this and that mean exactly?? when reading from a book..but I am a straight to the point person..I hate all that context and metaphor stuff...if I write something I MEAN EXACTLY what I say

IE - If I wrote - Mr Johnston walked into a store and robbed it <---it means he went in and....ROBBED it...it wouldnt mean anything else

If I wrote - Joe kicked bishop Brennan up the a*se (taken from sitcom Father Ted)....it would mean - Joe actually did kick Bishop Brennan up the a*se!@!! ..thats it straight to the point and no messing about

I dont believe in time wasting

The benefit is edification. The message is very simple as I said, but the build-up to it, does take time and is complicated by changes in language, culture, and time.

Surely an all knowing and seeing God would have made provisions for this happening to prevent his message being lost to the common masses


fullywired

If only it was that simple. I too wonder why things have to be so muddied and complex. Sometimes I wish the bible was indeed written and signed by "God" and consisted of about 20 pages of plainly read bold print. Like, "Don't kill each-other over money. Don't hurt others to make yourself feel good". Etc. Unfortunately, life, like religion, is never that simple and cut and dry. Just when you think it is, something pops up that obfuscates all our best intentions. And it's back to the "Good Book" in search of clarity.

The assumption here being that God wants it to be easy for us. Everything I know from my personal spiritual walk tells me that God is not interested in having a bunch of spoiled, incompetents expecting Him to meet their every whim eternally, He is looking for people who will trust Him and who will be ready to do the work He prepared them specifically for, both in this life and through eternity.

A nice answer but I don't think I like your God if he has favourites ,he made us all according to you and should treat us equally ,not writing some off because they fall below par

fullywired

This answer seems to be along the lines of one trying to shift responsibility. "Oh well, if God is going to require us to use our brains, and I may not be good enough or smart enough, then shame on God!" Again, the message of Salvation is simple, if you want more, then you have to put an effort on your part. How much of an effort? I really don't know, and neither do you, nor does anyone else since the Holy Spirit is involved in revealing God's Word to those who accept the gift, so to begin acting like God is trying to disqualify some or play favorites seems to be just another tactic to refuse to accept responsibility. Somewhat original, but not really.

MW, hold on let me be real clear how you choose to live your life for what reasons you assign is for you to decide not me...

it doesn't matter what I think nor should it....

I don't claim charitable contributions on taxes...

This is what you wrote:



I was correcting your misconception.

[quote name='MissMelsWell' date='Dec 26 2007, 03:32 PM' post='2059119']
This is what you wrote:


I misread your post, i thought you said you don't write it off... but in any event does it matter?? It doesn't to me..thats what I saying now.....

Why would I want to blame God for anything ,I don't believe in him ,I was just giving you an outsiders view to your response .When you are an insider you tend not to see the wood for the trees and the things that seem perfectly logical to you do not appear that way to me


fullywired

If a single sentence is flexible in regard to its context, then why are other solitary passages given so much import? For example the line 'in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost' appears only once in the entire Bible,(Matthew 28:19) and yet it is at the center of one of the great concepts of Christianity, the Trinity (Which, by the way, weakens Christian claims to monotheism, in the eyes of Jews and Muslims).

Incidentally, Deuteronomy 4:28 refers to "idols of wood and stone" - the Christian Cross is wood, and inside of the Kaaba, the black box the Muslims all pray to, is a stone, a meteor.

If the context neutralizes what appears to be a contradiction, then doesn't the context also neutralize everything else in the book? The Bible is a holographic compendium of powerful metaphors; it is a fascinating, compelling labyrinth that can be a garden for its scholars; but its authority is chosen, and cannot be imposed on the unwilling.

Even if the context of a passage changes the meaning so much that it 'no longer contradicts,' the fact is, that the apparent contradiction is enough to prove the point that there are contradictions, even if trivial.




http://dim.com/~randl/tcont.htm

Not only that, fw, but the context is usually very dependant on the level of belief in the reader. One who already believes in the religion will find a context to suit their belief - and such has already been read from the bible by scholars who do believe.

Context is like statistics, one can usually make it support the point you are trying to make/belief you are trying to support.

The definition of "context" (in the context of this thread) (no pun intended) is as fluid as water......

Many of you will not like this answer, But!

The words of the scriptures are a great puzzle that was dismantled to protect it from corruption, only the individual who truly asks with an earnest desire to know the truth will be given two keys to understanding. Many can quote the Bible word for word (including the devil himself) but few understand its meaning. There are two keys to understanding, one is in the heart of man and the other is held by the Holy Spirit of God.
The first key is attained by free will and a desire to know the truth (the heart). The Holy Spirit holds the second key to protect it from corruption by the deceiver until they are delivered to the born again soul shortly after acceptance of redemption.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Irish

Exactly.

I'm fully aware of the concept of biblical hermeneutics, and am also aware of the desire that adherents to the faith have for a comprehensive or unified interpretation of scripture in order to lay to rest any insinuations of ambiguity.

But!

To imply "that the scriptures are a great puzzle that was dismantled to protect it from corruption" is contradictive to what we see in practice routinely, because the scriptures are corrupted by believers and non alike. If the goal was to protect them from corruption then that goal was not achieved.

We also know that what most hold in their laps today, as the bible, is not the original format or even "context" that these age old teachings were intended, they in essence are corrupted.

I witness hordes of believers that , for all intents and purposes, have an "earnest desire to know the truth", and have a born again soul, and have accepted redemption as per scriptural ultimatum.

Yet not an individual nor an organization, have a congruence of interpretation aside from the fundemantal basis of the Christian religion.

To assert that scriptures "are a great puzzle that was dismantled to protect it from corruption" seems to move an individual towards a more fairy-tale like or capricious understanding of nature and less towards what this corrupted version of teachings may in fact have been originally able to teach us.

And yet... Christians stick by the explanation that we do not worship several God's but one all-powerful being who interacts with us in three forms.

Worship of the cross is not inherent in Christianity. I am not saying that it is not worshiped in some sects or congregations, but we are not called to do so at any time. We all use the cross as a visual reminder of the painful and degrading way in which our God sacrificed Himself for us.

Not sure at all what you are trying to say here.

You seem to be saying that if I say, "I'm going to kill you!" the fact that we are having an argument and I am saying it in frustration with no real intent of even attempting to carry that statement out means nothing because in a different context that phrase is a clear indication of my intent to murder you.



Nice try, Leo, but context is not a moving target.

The understanding of a particular text may change as we learn more about the author, audience, language of the original autograph, the culture, the original intent, etc., but it's not a subjective change, it is a change driven by increased understanding.

Not so, Iams. Modern Christianity and our understanding of many things, not the least the science of ourselves (psychology, sociology etc) has evolved from what it was when the NT was written and so the adherents of the faith today interpret the message from the bible in a very different setting to when it was written - and context, Iams, is not just meaning, it is setting as well.

The bible was written for a different society and culture and so must be adapted, thus the context is changed to suit. If you wish to interpret the bible in it's original context then live as those who wrote the bible did.

Well what context do we puit this quote?

"Yet I am God your Lord from the land of Egypt; you know no God but Me, and there is no savior besides Me." Hosea 14:4 [God speaking throught the prophet Hosea]



It seems to me to be denying Jesus was the saviour


fullywired

You're right, Leo, the Bible was written by people who lived in a different time, in a different culture, and their initial audience was part of that culture. That IS why we study the culture, study the language, try ti understand what possible slang, sayings, culturally significant puns or jokes are part of the text, because all of that is part of context. We are in agreement.

Only if Jesus is not God.

Leo, I would add too that the bible is a book of beleifs, it has little to do with true understanding...IMO its not insightful or deep at all.. its a system used to control and minimize inquiry or curiousity, Its a why bother dogma, someone already found the path so what would anyone need to know or question.... Religion already knows, according to the construct .. ....Most just obey in my understanding.......few have actually applied the ideas or looked at them for anything more than its a beleif they were told to follow.......

why?? why not live your own life come to your own 'truths' , why live vicariously through a beleif structure.. this is not living IMO..your life is to be experinced to come up with your own understandings...

Your life is the gift not the beliefs of a religion...What do you know about life about faith and insight and wisdom... ???

Interesting opinion, but not much else.

Ouch

I wouldn't agree entirely, Sheri. There are universal concepts written into the bible (as can be found in nearly all religious literature) which are deep and carry meaning of and insight into our natures. It is just that these 'truths' are surrounded with a lot of polemic about the superiority of the religion over all others.



Iams,

We are in agreement only insofar as you are representing about half of what I said. Yes, we can study biblical histiry and the cultural history of those who wrote the bible, but I am saying the original context will not be fully realised unless the actual society of the times is replicated and lived. We can glean some of the meaning and adapt it to our modern culture, but there is no guarantee that how Christianity is represented today is how it was intended. The context has changed and so has Christianity. When you 'put things into context' today you are doing so as a modern Christian in a modern society but this is based on an incomplete realisation of what the bible really meant to those who lived 2000 years ago - imo, of course!

I agree, Leo, but just like evolutionists do not stop studying evolution simply because we can not create the creatures and conditions which existed millions of years ago, because every day, they learn something new, they find a new piece to the puzzle, and despite the fact they will never be able to complete the puzzle, it's still important to see how much of the puzzle you can complete. Same with understanding the Bible in it's proper context. You're right, we will never be able to understand the Bible in it's proper context--that culture, that society, that time, that language---but each day we get closer, and even if we don't get it exactly we will learn more and understand better.