When you read the following...................... - Jesus says love one and other <-----------this means exactly what it says ............right??

So a lot of the good stuff from the bible...means exactly what it says

So why is it when it reads something that looks so harsh and sick...all of a sudden its taken out of context??

Actually, BM, that statement is taken out of context too.

The passage is :



First of all Jesus was talking to His followers. He was telling them to love each other in the same way He loved them. How did He love them? Well, if you read the whole chapter, you find out that He had just washed their feet. Although all of them recognized Him as their leader, He had just humbled Himself to the level of a very lowly servant. He was telling them that they were to love each other so much that they would happily serve each other.

So, you see, it's just as important to look at the nice things of the Bible in context, you actually learn more that way, and you get to see just how truly nice they are.

Very well stated.

Hairston

Well said. And that's the IMPORTANCE of context. To say, "love each other" is pretty simplistic. Saying that while at Woodstock, or saying that during an orgy, or saying that during a sermon, all puts these same words in a different context. Some people don't want to hear that, since it puts things in a perspective they have already decided they don't want to see.

Of course that does not always excuse what we consider today as being improper behavior. It's just important to remember that who, where, and when people are, is as important as what they believe when it comes to reading ancient writings of ANY type.

Remember when it was an honor to have a "sexual" relationship with an older man as a young boy? Was that Greece? I think so. It was NORMAL, even considered the RIGHT thing to do, and an honor if the older man was well liked and revered by his community and his peers. Today, we'd put him in jail and call him a pervert, and wish him tortured and dead!

It's all a matter of PERSPECTIVE and CONTEXT.

Son the Jesus lore: (filtering through a oneness paradigm) this story illustrates there is no heirarchial order that he and all others are one, equal and congruent to the whole, yet unique in expression.........our thoughts are actions that show what we beleive demonstrated in physical reality ...the actions of this lore demonstrate this , as jesus would not of thought of himself as better than ( gideon and CO do a great job of explaining this you can read their posts for insights) the choosing of disciples, washing of feet he was also illustrating that unconditonal love not only is what we all are naturally, and that it seeks to give of itself as that its its nature....Remember, love is sufficent unto itself it requires nothing needs nothing it is complete as is...He was seeking to get this across in a way that those of that mentality could understand.... ..also an attribute of a healthy self esteem: one who sees themselves as viable and the perfection of any moment is humblness personified...One wouldn't call it lowering themselves are need to be recognized as a leader LOL...
As I have mentioned you are filtering through a separation paradigm son....


the ideas that he was bringing forth are natural to the human experince one needs no book or church to get to this inner wisdom..it is what each is inherently in each anyways..

Context would be imperative here, it would have everything to do with how one defines love and in this context (the bible) its unnatural in its implementation..( lack of understanding what love is and isn't) for the most part love is perceved as having conditions therefore its experinced in this way...

Great example of why context is important.

Son, Indeed, context is the building blocks of experience..Do you beleive that what you percieve through the senses is reality??? I bet you do...

As opposed to what exactly?

Context is very important. Like, when Isaiah is speaking to a king about his enemies, and speaks about his own wife, the "young woman", who is pregnant at the time, and the Xians take it out of context as a "prophecy" about Yeshu. Isaiah is speaking about current events, not the far future, and the xians take it out of context, not reading the whole chapter. The best example I CAN THINK OF!

That's a great point, and an example of how Christians as well as non-Christians take so much out of context to fuel their own ideas. Just don't say it out loud, because God is evil and that's that, context or not. Remember, the Bible is repulsive and all that jazz, you know, wolf in sheep's clothing, etc, etc...

I'm with Becky's Mom. The verse pretty clear to me ex situ and the meaning doesn't change much in.
Excusing the pun, but god knows the only reason to start "clarifying" the point is to justify /not/ loving people for some reason -- and let's face it, most christians don't need Jesus' incentives to do that.

--Jaylemurph

Jesus says "Love one another". So exactly how are we to "love one another"? What form should this action take? What word for "Love" is used (there were more than one Greek words that were all translated as "Love"). How did Jesus show love to his disciples? How should his disciples thus show love to each other? I'm sorry, BM - but like Iams and others have pointed out, your example is also out of context unless you can answer the questions I wrote here (and no, these questions are not exhaustive).

The funny thing about context with the Bible is that it takes time to study a passage - any passage, even one as simple as "Love one another". This has been made more clear to me than ever this past week and a half. Two weeks ago, at my Bible Study group, a question arose about one verse. This verse was 6-words long. Six words, and we didn't arrive at a conclusion that week. The task of "homework" was voted to me that week, and seven days later when we had our next Bible study, I walked in with a four-page essay 1,960 words long. 2000 words, written on a six-word Bible verse. Because the context in understanding this passage was so vitally important. Not just the passage around it, but the theological context of the whole Bible.

Yet it was only six words! Proper contextual study takes time. It takes effort. And quite frankly, most people aren't willing to do the study (that includes CHristians as well as non-Christians). People are often much more comfortable with the surface examination. What happens around the passage is of little consequence to many people - I even remember a debate or two when after showing a passage immediately before a contentious verse that puts the whole thing in context, and the person has responded along the lines of "Sod that earlier passage - Ignore it, and read this one alone". And of course, reading that passage alone gets a completely different meaning to reading it in context. But still, they say - "Sod it".

But I digress. I'll finish off by simply reiterating the importance of proper contextual understanding. All the best,

~ Regards, PA

That reminds me of studying English texts for High School, delving so deeply into a passage or indeed a few words. Do you sometimes think you are looking too deeply? Seeing connections/meanings that aren't intended?

Somehow I am not amazed you wrote 2000 words. he he he!

^Sometimes, Betsy. Indeed in that 2000 words, I did bring up a few interpretations that were unlikely but still possible. Suffice it to say though that I don't think I said anything heretical My point was that proper contextual interpretation takes time and effort and cannot simply be done simply be reading one verse from one Bible translation on its own without any further reading or thought.

Thank you for finally admitting that you get your ideas from a bible study group. *SNIP* uncalled for remarks

There's no need to attempt to inflame the discussion via sarcasm. Please be tolerant of the position/beliefs of others.

IAMS when Jesus said love one and other..thats EXACTLY what it meant ---> LOVE EVERYONE... not taken out of context, for he meant what he said

No offense but that was too long and uncalled for as a response...it clearly states love everyone...thats it..there is no need to go into a whole song and dance

But the thing is, BM, there IS a need to go into it deeply, because you get to see that Jesus didn't just tell us to love everyone, but He also showed us the depth of the love He was talking about. It wasn't just like, "Hey, love that person!" No, it was, "Hey love that person so much that you will gladly do anything to make them feel loved and appreciated!" Do you see the difference?

Just wondering, PA, but the bible is a compilation of many books, all written by different people in various times, so how do we know that biblical context was originally the same from book to book? One, later, author of one of the books may have read one of the earlier books out of context, written what they did and then sat back, so pleased that the context was what THEY thought it should be, not what the author of the more ancient book wanted.

I appreciate the whole bible was probably modified when it was standardised, but this, then, may not reflect again what was originally written contextually.

IAMS to sum it all up and to make it plain and straight forward it means to actually love one and other...

ie the love you show for a friend...

he knows there is different kinds of love but over all he meant show love REGARDLESS how you do it...how hard is that to grasp???

therefore I dont see any need to go into a song and dance about it all

I dont study the bible but even I know what he meant

Here is another one--- Forgive them father, they know not what they do <---means exactly what it says...to sum it up it means they have no idea whats really going on its not their fault forgive them

You can take any good loving sentence from the bible and transform it into different wordings...but you can make it mean exactly what it says...


BUT if you take a foul and harsh sentence from the bible... <---you will completely turn it into something completely different

My humblest apologies. I keep forgetting that the Christians here are a special, protected group, and that it is forbidden to criticize them. My post had no sarcasm intended whatsoever. I meant exactly what I said. I forget that those of us who have not been bathed in jesus's blood are considered second class on this board. I will go back to toting that barge and lifting that bale, massa.

now does that mean they only have to love/serve one another ??????

Jesus had his disciples and then he had his everyone else. only a couple instances of his life was Jesus recorded to be kicking it with churchy type people. Jesus spent most of his time with the scum. Prostitutes, crazy people, pigs that were posessed, diseased, dying, dead, drunk, murderous, jaded people.
he was teaching them by loving each other by serving each other you will stengthen each other as you have strengthened me and we can then serve those people. and in turn strengthen them and so on and so on....basically we can't be out there in the world doing stuff on our own. we need each other. and in order to be there for some one you might have to do some dirty, nasty stuff that you don't REALLY want to do like clean some dirty travelled feet, but spread the love anyway...

in my opinion

It doesn't mean exclusively one another. But it does mean that others should see all of them trying to serve each other not beating up on each other or "lording" it over each other. When you take this passage and add the fact that Jesus said that the second greatest commandment is "Love your neighbor like yourself" it seems obvious that Jesus intended them to love everyone like that. But in that chapter Jesus was talking to His followers. He had just showed them that even though He was their leader, His love for them was so deep that He was willing to wash their feet, to serve them. If all we look at is the "Love one another" part, we miss the beauty of that saying in the context of Jesus having just washed their feet. If we only had that chapter to look at then we might assume Jesus was just telling them to love only each other that way. But knowing that Jesus said the second greatest commandment was "Love your neighbor as yourself," then we can understand that He meant His followers are to love everyone to the point of being happy to serve them.

John 13:1-17, 34-35 SOURCE




That is the context of "Love one another."

Isn't it so much more impactful and beautiful when you see what He did and why He did it?

hahahahahahah ouch my sides ! lol. ah I needed that laugh.

I'm reading about jesus and love one another while on the other hand christians here hate very well and forgiveness is far from thier lives. lots bring up 911 yet have lost no one and are feeding on blood lust and revenge . while those who have lost loved ones during 911 have set up Peaceful Tomorrows and are anti war.


so who is the Christian here ?

http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/article.p...ype&type=12


war won't stop terrorism , but understanding and diplomacy will. and What is the bulk of the terrorists anger ? they want infidels ( anyone who is not muslim) off muslim holy land. but because of oil and greed we won't do it. that was the original reason Bin laden got upset with America - before that we financed and trained him - Reagan made bin ladin who he is today.

if jesus existed and were alive today , he'd be kicking it up taking in a drag show once in a while having a beer and dancing to some good techno. He'd have a shirt that said , my friend went to Ibiza and all I got was this lousy t shirt.

I must say I did enjoy that. the principle is spot on.

while I don't believe jesus was a saviour if he even existed , I do believe that it shows the strength in humility. the rising above those who are nothing but mouth. ( lip service.) talk is cheap. it's our actions that count.

And that I agree with wholeheartedly.

Very well said, I feel the jesus lore was illustrating the awareness and understanding of compassion ( few see this) and what the human is capable of, and to be this essence .... IMO the dogmas don't even begin to touch on the essence of spirituality. or love . ......
I have heard so many say jesus has this amazing way of telling parables in a way people could understand who were illiterate yet if this is the case..why do so few that actually 'get' his message let alone apply it....I don't think it matters, what matters is being safe from the vengeful diety and that is a full time endeavor for many....or as a point to show that god loves you , he loves you so much he will kill his own kid, when I have heard this I have gotten the chills, I wonder how fast I'd be committed if I said this to someone, I bet real fast... .....Few see this and we wonder why we use violence as a measure of love in this society......

Sheri,

You still baffle me. You prattle on about violence, love blah blah, and recently here on UM, there have been some very very good threads about pacifism, conscientious objection, and non-violence specifically. I NEVER see you responding to those threads.

Why?

I didn't see them MW, I am also limited on time, so I just pop in and if something strikes me fancy I post, I will have a look and contribute..thanks for the suggestion.

I most certainly would love to share my exeprinces of living and parenting in non violence as you I take the Do No harm. seriously...
again thanks MW....

It appears that I missed this response. So, I'll clarify this just one more time.

UM Rules:




Another bit of clarification here; while it is acceptable to critique the arguments others of others, this is not the same thing as personally baiting/inflaming others due to their religious beliefs. Hopefully this is now crystal clear.

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, BM - I haven't been online for the past few days. But just to quickly say, I think my post was both called for and necessary. Let us say then that we should all "Love one another", as said here - my question is, HOW do you do that? How does one Love all others? To this answer, I'm sure I could think of dozens of different answers, each one different, and some even conflicting. So the only way to know what Jesus was talking about was to read the context and see. If you don't do that, you'll never have a proper understanding of the Bible - but it is the way of things that most people do not do that (Christians included). My example was to simply show how important context is!

Whenever you are studying the Bible, context is always an important point, even if it is as...... simple..... as "love one another" (for the record, history has shown that loving one another is far from simple). One needs to consider the context - not just what the individual verse says, but how it fits into the chapter, then how it fits into the book, then how it fits into the whole Bible. What style was it written in (historical, narrative, poetry, prophecy). Who was it written for (if known)? Who wrote it (if known)? Why was it written (was it a warning, a judgement, a call to celebrate, a call to persevere....). When was it written (Old Testament or New Testament). What part of the Old/New Testament is it (the Law, the writings, the wisdom books, or the prophets/ gospels or teachings or revelation). If we wrote a time-line of biblical events, where on that timeline does this event occur? What Greek/Hebrew words are used in the verse (may need a concordance for this part if you're not a Greek/Hebrew scholar). What words are repeated in the passage (repeated words or phrases usually denote special significance). What context is the word used in in this verse? What context was the same word (again, may need a concordance) used in different parts of the specific book (assuming it was used again), and what context did the same author use the word in within other texts they wrote - if they wrote more than one book, that is). What did the author originally intend their reader to gain from the text? Is it the same today?? How does this passage point to Jesus Christ? If Old Testament, how was this passage fulfilled through Jesus? If New Testament, what does this passage show about the character of Jesus?

These are questions I ask myself every single time I pick up a Bible. While the primary message of the Bible is easy to understand, there are many things in it that are not easy. And while it is easy to say "Love one another", it is a very different thing to know how to love one another, and the only way to know what Jesus meant was to look at the context.

~ Regards, PA

Hi Leo, as above, my apologies in not replying sooner - it's been a crazy week for me.

I don't really understand what you mean by this. Not every book of the Bible directly builds on the one before it. They often discuss different issues, and therefore the "biblical context" has a much wider range than simply looking at a progressive series of events on a timeline. But for those sections of the Bible that do directly quote earlier books, I'd say the majority of those quotes are either laws or prophecies. I'm not going to say what happens "if" someone got it wrong. The only way to be truly certain if they have the context correct is to read it yourself, in context, using the suggestions in my post above. If there is a specific point where you think the author misquoted an earlier source, please provide it, otherwise I don't think this game of "what if" will get us anywhere. Know what I mean.

All the best,

~ Regards, PA

Where do you get that it is the love you show for a friend? Did you make that part up, or are you guessing at what Jesus meant? Or did you read the passage?

Love is not so easily defined, BM. How do you show love to others? As I mentioned in my previous post, I can think of a dozen different ways to show it, each of them different, and some of them contradictory.

Do you mean that Jesus meant "show love to others as you would show love to a friend"? I never read that in the Bible....... Show me where Jesus says "Love each other with the type of love you show for a friend". Are you guessing again, or interpreting. In my previous post to you, I gave you a list of things that I do every time I read the Bible - consider asking yourself some of those questions and you might be able to answer this.

Who is "them"? WHo is the Father? What were they doing that warranted forgiveness in the first place? Is this different to other people who might need to be forgiven for other things? Of course, we take many of these things for granted, since it is generally common knowledge that people know where Jesus was at the time he was saying those words, but that just proves my point - if you didn't know where Jesus was, or what he was doing (being crucified), would "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do" make anywhere near the sense it does to you today? What if he was at a football game, and the striker for one team scored, and he said "Forgive them father, for they know not what they do". Would that change the message, or would the message be the same regardless of where he was or what he was doing.

Sorry, PA, I should have been clearer in what I meant. You responded to BM about having to take into account the theological context of the entire bible to examine a 6 word passsge. If all these books were written at different times, by different people with different beliefs (some of them were written before Christianity was born) how can the theological context be consistent throughout the whole?

How can the Christian writing of the NT passages have the same theological context as the non-Christian OT passages. The Christian authors would have had to interpret the OT passages into Christian theology first and thus the actual context of the OT is lost, or at least degraded. I'm not certain if the OT was rewritten, but if it was not then the interpretation made of it is probably false and thus the 'theological context of the entire bible' is actually only pertinant to the NT.

People spend too much time reading too much into gospels and what they COULD mean ...its no different than reading a daily horoscope take what you want from it, as long as it suits you and roll with it


BAH..lol

Anything can be read that shallowly, BM, but the problem is, if you do a surface reading of the Gospels, then you only gain a surface understanding of them, and you miss the real truth and the real beauty, and the real depth of love God is sharing with us.

you brought a great point I have a question for you and wonder if you have considered it yourself ???... the bible says love each other... if you are to study 'corinthians' 'Love is' it would seem sort of a hypocrisy that jesus would demand that you love all others, how is that authentic ??( hate is actually more authentic its raw and pure ever notice that )....

but i digress... How do you command someone to do something that in and of itself is the essence of what you are. it just is, its natural to all you can't teach it... or tell one to do this love just happens doesn't it can you define the moment you are in love??? it just happens one moment you love another .... it just happens.... it is you.. no two expressions are the same at that its an original creation each and every expression you can't love two people the same its impossible... (you can look to your own past for this).. . a child is born into this world a purely loving creature until its conditioned out of them by the parent....if this is the son of god then he ought to have conveyed this.. right ??? what would your thoughts be on this ???? .....

yes love one another and treat them how you would want to be treated . ......... but are you willing to pay taxes to help the poor ? build shelters and homes? love one another enough to say stop the war ? ect .................

or is it all rhetoric and lip service ?

and this is what makes me sad.

Why pay taxes to help the poor? Especially when we ALL know our tax dollars are spent on all kinds of things we don't approve of. Why not instead help the poor directly, or through organizations that actually dedicate themselves to doing that and where a much larger part of your dollar actually goes to helping them.

I am troubled by this also do for others so they will do for me mentality..I think the point is missed in this teaching....this teaching creates a lot of the issues not helps IMO...as a matter of fact we are in pretty bad shape as a collective how many thousands of years does it take to make changes care for our poor etc treat all equally ??? ...I can't help but look at the so called great biblical wisdoms and wonder if in the end they really are designed to be self serving.. you can't have a better than with out a belielf that their is a justifiable reason to let others do without or shun or cast others aside for beleivng differently .... ( not all but enough to notice) ...I am just not seeing this construct as a solution but adding to the problem...

what we fail to do for one we fail to do for all ....

Yes. And more.



Yes, and FAR more.



Yes, and will continue to do so. Even spent 3 weeks in central Mexico doing just that. Have worked on numerous neighborhood projects as well.



Do it as best as I can by belonging to a large church organization with a peace office at the UN that tries to work directly on that.



Nope.

What you're really talking about here is the social aspects of the "church". When I chose a church, I made dang sure that I chose one with unwavering dedication to the community and was 100% socially dedicated to making this world a better place to live for EVERYONE, not just other christians. EVERYONE.

It has not worked son people are still starving and homeless .. these institutions do more to exploit then help... it has to be a life style each of us has to use our lives to be the benefit because its just who we are that we see another as us that we understand there is only one of us.........and if each did we world hunger would stop tommorrow., just like that .... its not up to some institution in the hopes a small portion may or may not get tot hem, I doubt very little does ......

we have to be really aware of what motivates giving ...are we doing it to feel superior or are we giving to institutions knowing they do little yet we are supposed to and feel its better than nothing?? you would be surprised at how few answer this first......

i am not inferring you don't give. not at all but the US gives less than 1 percent to others to help all other countries give more..why????

So let me see if I got this right Sheri... you think people "give" to feel better about themselves? Ok, well, that's kind of interesting.

So what do you think the definition is of "Selfless Giving?" How do you tell the difference between giving to feel good about yourself and giving because it's the right thing to do?

Just interested... because I'm not sure I even know... I'd be interested in what you're opinion is. Can you give your opinion without saying the words constructs, filters, love, homeschooling, education and little kids? But just give a simple answer that makes sense?

Exactly what part of this "construct" are you talking about Sheri? Studies consistently show that Christians and Christian organizations, both in and outside of the U.S. consistently give money and time to help their fellow humans.

Group home for kids cuts campus
December 23, 2007

BY DAN CORTEZ

FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

The Warren campus of the Children's Home of Detroit will close early next year due to a lack of money.

The decision to close the six-acre facility on Chicago Road by Feb. 2 was made in November, executive director Bill Steele said. At that time, about 30 children lived at the home. About 100 employees at the Warren campus will be laid off.



"It's purely due to economic reasons," Steele said Friday. "We really want to concentrate on our core services at our Grosse Pointe location." The group's main campus is in Grosse Pointe Woods, where about 60 children live.

Steele added that all but six of the children at the Warren location have been placed at other group homes, or are back with family.

The Warren location was established in 1991. But the Children's Home of Detroit has been working in the region since 1836. The group takes in troubled children ages 6 to 18 and provides housing, food, clothing and schooling.

While the nonprofit gets some state assistance, its own fund-raising efforts throughout metro Detroit weren't enough to keep the Warren campus open.

"We struggled the entire year this year," Steele said. "The prudent -- although the most difficult -- decision was to close the facility."

Macomb County Circuit Court Chief Judge Antonio Viviano said the county has placed children at the home in the past. He said the services were essential to children with mental illnesses.

"We're disappointed in losing them," he said. "They do good work."

Steele said most of the children come to the home from difficult circumstances.

"Many of these youngsters do not have a family. They're kind of here because they need to be here," he said.


http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article...712230539/1006/

Ok, that sounds like a sad article Ripley... a mentally ill and troubled children's home is being shut down due to lack of money.

My experience is that there's typically a reason, one that runs deeper than money alone.

I can't comment on this article and home specifically, there's not enough information to do that.