I started to watch a TV show on the discovery science channel the other night, couldn't watch it all as we had to go out.
It was showing how man would have to travel through space and how it could be achieved, i did not realise the complications and dangers actually involved.
I found the pressure suit part of the show very interesting as it explained how the suits worked and why they had to be that way, there was a female scientist on there who as just invented a close fitting ski type suit to get a way from the cumbersome and heavy normal space suit.
My question is this, if humans are to go out into deep space, then we are limited to the speed of light to travel (once we get to that level of technology that is), so at present it is a more realistic speed of around 26000 mph (i think), so we will be up there a long time, the average life of a human (on earth) is around 75yrs, we don't actually know how long we would live in space, so how many couples would need to go up and travel the cosmos, without 'inbreading' and finally causing more medical problems than could be dealt with out there.
Anyone?

I've heard of this before.. I barely recall the number of couples, I think that was 150 or 50, Can't recall .
If anyone has a deeper knowledge on this topic, is/are gladly welcome.. especially you Master Waspie.

I think that all depends on how far you want to go, thus how much time it would take...Space is pretty deep.

If you are asking about how many couples we need, I would say around 400-500.

And if we go too deep into space, it's going to cause a ton of problems. First of all, traveling at a high speed will slow down time for the passengers, so if they do come back, it will seem like they came into the future. Also, if you go too deep, communicating with earth will become harder. Third, if there is a technical difficulty and we need help from earth, it might take a while to get there.

I think for humans to travel in space, for long periods across great distances, i think we'll have to turn to science to genetically modify humans for space travel, the genetically modified humans would be able to survive all the harsh conditions in space and live much longer lives say 1000 year life span, instead of our 75-90 year life span, i think this is the only way forward, unless we wait and see if we naturally evolve for space travel,

belial was talking about 26,000 MPH.

Let's think about that for a moment.

The nearest star is ~4ly distant.
At 26,000 MPH, that's 100,000 years travel time one way.
That's problematic for many reasons.

It's 4000 generations of humans who would have to be born, raised, and educated in many fields continuously. Knowledge will have to be updated continuously from Earth for the duration of the journey via communications that half-way out will take 2 years to get to the ship. The people on-board will have to be able to fabricate new technologies on the fly continuously...new technologies using materials than probably didn't exist when they left, and that they'll have to make....how?

We will need doctors on board at all times, and plenty of them, with a continuing supply of them being trained, aboard ship, generation after generation. I hope a sufficient number of the offspring want to be doctors (and astrophysicists, and electrical, mechanical, structural, and aerospace engineeers, psychologists, metalurgical engineeers, machinists, computer technicians, plumbers, undertakers, and all the required things for such a journey)!

We'll need compatible people who have a desire to couple with each other, generation after generation. We'll also need an incredibly stable environment and stable relationships among the limited number of people who will be on board.

Additionally, we'll need a completely self-sustaining ship that will last a couple hundred thousand years, and can manufacture every single thing that it's occupants will need for a period of time longer than humanity in any form of Homo genus has been alive on this planet!

Help from Earth on a techical problem?
No way...for a while.

By the time we arrived at Alpha Centauri, human will have evolved 100,000 years on Earth, and travel at a significant fraction of light speed...or maybe in excess of light speed, will be commonplace. Further, the human race on Earth will undoubtedly have significantly evolved in 4000 generations on Earth...and also undoubtedly in a much different manner than those aboard the ship will have evolved.

There may well be no similarity between the two groups, who may well constitute two completely different species.

Think about that.


What's the point of trying such a thing at 26,000 MPH?

The only practical way to execute any interstellar travel is to develop transportation that will give us a significant fraction of light speed.


What kind of a vehicle would have to be developed in order to provide for say 450 couples...900 folks, who will be willing to never see the Earth again, who will need to breed, raise their children, and keep the process going for the next 200 millennia, all while keeping their ship running smoothly, providing for all human needs, continuously, and hoping everyone on board keeps getting along, generation after generation, millennium after millennium. And then there's food...

It's an interesting thought experiment, but completely impractical.

if we reach the near the speed of light volicities then we need not worry about our life spans, well, the ones on THE SHIP, if you traveled 99.9999999999999% the speed of light then hours later you would reach Andromeda, but on earth 6 million years would have passed, faster you go the slower time appears to move for you. We could travel faster than light some day (I am trying to find a way to frame dragging space faster than light in order to carry a ship using FTL particles and super heavy mass)

Well if we shut of the grim reaper gene we may live 7 times longer, you or meant to live to 100 congrats on your 700th birthday!, with more modification it may take us to a 1000 yrs,

6 million years elapsed Earth time perceived while a vehicle traveled to Andromenda would would equate about 1/3c ship's velocity, which wouldn't be nearly sufficient for humans to live for the duration of the journey, since special relativity indicates that it would be 1,900,000 years ship's elapsed time to get there...(you really need a very high percentage of the speed of light to have significant time dilatation effects according to the mathematics of the therory of special relativity).


At 99.9999999999999%c, which is within 1.2 inches per second of the speed of light, the ships elapsed time would be about 21 years for the journey, and Earth's elapsed time would be 2,000,000 years, plus a little.


You are correct in the theoretical assumptions of special relativity, but a little off in the math involved.

**** me your clever Mid.

Shucks, belial.
I ain't clever enough to make up an avatar like yours!

yeah you just use that phalic.....ummmm rocket symbol

Damn straight! MID is all brains AND braun, and whatever else makes a good man! LOL!

Rocket scientist!

Hell yah!

Musician!

Hell yah!

My kind of American!

OOOOOOOKay???

Hot damn!
That magnetar guy...he's just too much!


"You're a great American, Magnetar!"



And Stixx...



Are you jealous? Is there some problem?

Your the first person I've ever heard associate a flying machine with a phallus (...two "Ls").

We all know flying machines are beautiful, feminine personalities...and personally, I'd never climb into a male airplane (can you imagine the fighter jet with the name "JOE" on it's side?).


That 'phallic...umm rocket symbol' was a Goddess, not a phallus.


Try again...

Hot damn!
That magnetar guy...he's just too much!


"You're a great American, Magnetar!"



And Stixx...



Are you jealous? Is there some problem?

Your the first person I've ever heard associate a flying machine with a phallus.

We all know flying machines are beautiful, feminine personalities...and personally, I'd never climb into a male airplane (can you inmagine the fighter jet with the name "JOE" on it's side?


That "phallic...umm rocket symbol" is of a Goddess, not a phallus.

Try again....

I got the scales from an example in Brian Greene`s book, "fabric of the cosmos", so sorry about trusting a string physicist.

Also my idea for traveling ftl means manipulating space by moving super massive mass (most likely dark matter) near the speed of light while spinning on it axis, it frame drags space near the speed of light, travel near the speed light, to an observer you appear to travel faster than light, when from you point of view you may travel at only a portion of light speed.
(this is because the space moves and anything moving in that space can travel near the speed of light but not at it while the space move near or at or even faster than light)

http://www32.brinkster.com/snefru/space/srcalc/srcalc.htm

special relativity calculator, hope it helps.

its a joke not a spelling test, did you have ANY friends growing up sheesh?

MID making amazing posts again, never get tired of them.

Actually, with (bound?) electrons communication could be instantaneous with spooky quantum physics, we may also find more possibilities from Voyager when it fully leaves the suns heliosphere, the medium of space beyone our star is still a discovery to be uncovered.

Alex...

You're too kind.

Well, I could accept that idea fairly well...then again I'm one of those feminine personalities myself.

To be truthful though, I don't care much for the idea of stepping into an airplane of any gender!

Oh, I know that!
Further, no one should be forced to do what they aren't comfy with...regardless of gender!



It's just a thing, you know. Pilots traditionally have referred to airplanes as feminine..."her," not "it", and never "him" (that I know of). The examples are countless. Even spacecraft shared the same thing. Mike Collins wrote a note on the inside of Apollo 11's CM, Columbia. It ended with, "God bless her." You never hear people refer to airplanes as "handsome", a traditional reference to a male. It's always, "beautiful", and of course few males are referred to as beautiful, I should think!

Now that I think about this almost rote paradigm, it could be an interesting subject to study. I'm sure it came from the early male dominance in aviation (jet jockeys, test pilots, etc...), but that doesn't exist anymore, of course. Women are very present in the field today, which is of course a highly positive gain.

I wonder though, if Emelia Erhardt refered to her Lockheed as "him"?
Perhaps I could ask Eileen Collins or Pam Melroy, or any of the many female pilots today, if they refer to their craft as him or her???


...could be a new thread!!

Isn't that the same principle as a Warp Drive engine where a ship uses anti-matter to warp space and then ride the 'ripple'?

I *might* be willing to try it if you were the pilot (providing you promised not to do anything hot doggish).





I suspect that females would refer to their planes as a "he"....I could be wrong though (this is a good thread idea!)

No hot-doggishness guaranteed!

Just gentle flying...on a smooth summer evening. No big g maeuvers (did that without thinking to a friend many years ago and paid for it), no big bank angles...airline pilot flying. You get to see God for a while, then...I give you the airplane, and say, "OK, Lil, you fly the airplane...you've got the controls!"





I'd be willing to bet you're right!
I am going to have to check that out!

I'm sure Lil would accept, that's one of the best experiences a human being can have really. I would also say, "Ok Lil, do a smooth landing on the runway".

well, since these bound electrons communicate instantaneously at the same times with waves that travel slower than light.

Let me say this easier, electron one is about act with his Spooky bound friend, all their motions will be the same, but if one is altered then it takes awhile for that other electron to know what to do, since they "talk" through electromagnetic waves, now this means every time you try to talk to the electron it is delayed, then the elect is released, then it resumes its bound movements.




Well, no, warp drive makes space ahead of you smaller, then re-expands it behind to, you do not move, the space moves you, this requires several star masses of power.
My idea just requires really heavy matter spun at high velocities from particle accelerators, then a ship travels through it, and to an observer you appear to move faster than light, when from your point of view you are not.

...Now, THAT'S pressing the limit a little!

I'm not sure I'd want to hand a trimmed up airplane, flaps down, slowed up, on a nice final approach, to someone who's not all that thrilled with the idea of being in an airplane...even as a joke!

....you can really make a mess of a nice day manhandling an airplane on final approach.

You're right though, Alex...flying is one of the best experiences one can have...but you've got to do it right.
Years ago (many years ago), I flew one of my sisters around. She was scared to death. I took off and she had her head down, eyes closed, probably praying... until I was climbing through 3000 feet in a mellow right turn, and nudged her, saying, "C'mon, take a look, we're in Heaven."

"Oh...my...God!" she says...staring at the view. "That's so beautiful!"
Five minutes later, she had her hand on the wheel, softly guiding the airplane through some shallow turns, while I watched, my feet on the rudders pedals to keep things trimmed up.


When it came time to land, I just said, "OK, we're gonna land...git yer hands off my airplane and don't touch anything!"

A lovely greaser landing is a sure fire ticket to making the flying experience a good one, and I'm the only one who's gonna do that (if I'm pilot in command)!


On the other hand, I learned a nasty lesson by flying an aquaintance around who wanted to see his house from the air. I was a young dope, who thought nothing about the fact that he was a novice who hadn't ever been in an airplane. I didn't give him the controls, I found his house and proceeded to give him an unobstructed view by flying steep turns around a point in a 60+ degree bank, which resulted in a 2 g+ load being imparted upon his poor inner ear. A quick roll reversal and another 2 g turn in the opposite direction resulted in his inner ear communicating with his stomach and saying, "Jesus Lord what the hell!"

I paid for this indiscretion with bath provided by his lunch ( I have never seen such an exhibition of projectile vomiting in my life).

Tasty, eh?

And as well, by a heavy duty dressing down by a couple of senior flight instructors (my own included) who got wind of what I did so absent mindedly. I was about 17 years old at the time, and of course spending two hours cleaning up the results of my stupidity taught me a great lesson (as well as the death threats that came from senior people who warned me about ever being so stupid with a rookie on board an airplane...).

God...that's a tasty discussion, isn't it?!




I guess the botom line is, if I fly Lil (or anyone else) anywhere, they're gonna get the red carpet flying treatment...I won't even joke about her landing the craft. I'll make sure she loves it....!

MID, quick pilot questions...

How much is it for a pilot`s license?

Have you flown a glider?

Have you been to an airshow (showing off and flying).

I think today it's probably gonna cost you a several thousand dollars for an FAA private pilot's certificate...(depends on the airplane you're flying (renting)...unless you happen to own one...in which case the cost of instruction is an irrelevancy!).

You have to have the following minimums...a total of 40 hours of flight time(which I personally think is low!) including the following:
At least 20 hours of flight instruction by a certified flight instructor including at least 3 hours of cross country and 3 hours of night flying.
At least 20 hours of solo flight time including at least 10 hours in type of aircraft and 10 hours of cross country flight.


I had alot more than that, as I recall....but then again, I was probably dumb!

Your talking 40 hours minuimum at upwards of $80-$90.00 per hour for Cessna 152. That's about $3400.00 for aircraft rental.
You're also talking about instructor fees for at least 20 hours, which at going rates (maybe $45.00 / hr or so), say an additional $1000.00, plus fees for exams and medical certs...

Let's say $4,500.00 is probably a reasonable estimate...in a sweet little two seat Cessna 152 (a more forgiving little airplane I've never flown!).




Cute, huh?

Wanna train in a Skyhawk?




Up the rental fee to about $100.00 (+)per hour, and put aside about $ 5,000.00 or so...

But there you have an also forgiving 4 seater, stacked up with all the goodies you might want:





3750 feet, 90 KTS, climbing at 500 FPM, tracking 304 degrees,




These figures are somewhat stunning to me. I seem to recall maybe $10.00-$15.00 / hr for dual instruction including aircraft rental...but then again, that's a while ago, and as I think of it, I had to work a whole day to afford an hour's flying time! It's probably about the same, really.





Yep.
A hell of a way to go flying...dead stick all the way, real flying, and relaxing, too!



Nope.
Never flew in an airshow. Those guys and gals who do that stuff train forever to fly those demonstrations. They're top drawer pilots, I can tell you that, but it's not a direction I was interested in.

M~