The 'elliptical' in the name of SagDEG indicates the galaxy itself (the 1994 discovery) is stretched into an elliptical shape (an ellipsoid, not an ellipse) by it's proximity to the Milky Way, it is not a reference to the streamers of stars left in the wake of SagDEG's passing (which were only discovered after SagDEG was discovered in 1994). It is also called the Sagittarius Dwarf Spherical Galaxy, perhaps I'll use that name in future to avoid confusion.



Our Solar System is orbiting in the plane of the Milky Way. This has been confirmed by numerous astronomical surveys/studies and measurements. If the solar system was from SagDSG and had not yet been incorporated it would be orbiting the Milky Way in the plane of the streamers of stars left in the wake of the galaxies [SagDSG's] passing. This is nearly perpendicular to the plane of the Milky Way.

That the solar systems plane of orientation is tilted by some 60^o with respect to the plane of the Milky Way is NOT evidence the solar system is foreign to the Milky Way. If you wish to make the case that the inclination of the plane of the solar system is relevant, then please show how it is the same as the inclination of SagDSG. I don't think you will though, because it isn't.

There is also some circumstantial evidence about what galaxy our sun is from. In this paper it is shown that the stars in SagDSG are iron-poor. Our sun is known to be a relatively iron-rich third generation star. While not conclusive this makes it far more likely that our sun was born of the Milky Way rather than in SagDSG.

Good that you are digging enough to get into the thick of it!


When Matthew Perkins Erwin released the information on the Curezone* blog some three months ago, with all the supporting discoveries*, there was a sensationalist piece done up on a sight called the 'Viewzone'**, which fully stole and plagiarized the new discoveries and data jumbling the statements together of the scientists in the 2003 established science released with the newest release of Matthew's that was just newly being released for peer review. The Earlier scientists were not aware of the slew of all the latest discoveries, or had a chance to even study what it all meant and the Viewzone sensationalist story went worldwide so fast that reporters were descending upon the earlier scientists pummeling them for questions as though they had released the latest.

"*" Matt's Curezone Blog
http://curezone.com/blogs/fm.asp?i=985423


"**" Viewzone stolen sensationalized release to generate banner traffic:

http://www.viewzone.com/milkyway.html

Matt has an entry as Editor's Note in direct reference mid-blog:

"EDITOR'S NOTE: There was an article on a site called Viewzone that lifted quite a bit of this content and then mixed/ matched quotes here with those of scientists in a "sensationalism release" without the proper substantiation. This may have resulted in an undue prejudicial treatment of the topics by some, who seem only too eager to dismiss the potentially timely breakthroughs offered here without proper and due consideration for the advancement of science. Given the fact that even the mainstream discoveries such as discovering that we have been wrong since Copernicus about which way we were even going in space until just months ago, makes it unfair to scientists to ask them to make snap statements on any of these topics until they have updated and equipped themselves on all the new data. Therefore, any premature pronouncements implicating this work in with any Viewzone article inaccuracies may simply be an unwitting exercise in guilt by association and unfortunately throwing the baby out with the bathwater in a blinded by circumstance resistance to progress. Because some across the globe may have a timely, important use for the information, we choose not to withhold the information from humanity, because of the scientific importance and obvious potential weight of the implications presented globally."



The chief scientist that did the knee-jerk initial response to stave off the press had initially posted that statement and apparently assigned a backwater debunker to the task since he was not at liberty to enter into a discussion without taking the whole developing matter under years of research and review (lest he lose his own funding).

The backwater debunking attempt turned out to be an embarrassing mess, and now he has since done a complete backpedaling:

Professor Majewski, (University of Virginia Astronomy) lead author heading up the team releasing the 2003 paper (which revealed the hidden in plain sight loop shaped structure of the intersecting dwarf galaxy through our near space) has now clearly offered a fresh new scientific perspective on the state of our earlier understanding, and disclosed details of the launching of a new mission, instrumentation, and funding that will keep him busy for years to come now:

[ NASA/ JPL podcast 09/07/07 ]

"We don't know the basic things about our place in the galaxy, our sun's place in the galaxy."

http://planetquest.jpl.nasa.gov/podCasts/P...stPodcast04.cfm

It is important to note that:

An astrophysicist is not usually seen to make comments one way or the other unless as a published peer reviewed article and that is in relation only to discoveries that are on the mainstream radar or placed there newly by those of the mainstream club.

He works under funding and there are very specific status quo constraints on such in his profession. He is not a self employed independent by any means.

Could it be-- that he could not bring himself to break those status quo rules because he sees no reason to on the face of it without actually looking into it or the supporting substantiation discoveries yet...?

Even if he did look into it, would he not be just having to reduce his own standing in the limelight as already one of the lead authors in the study, and would not either get new money or new credit for any aspect of the new discoveries and in effect become a 'has been', and that to an untenured, un-degreed upstart in his eyes... regardless of the discovery. Matt is not in the club?

What incentive is there for this lead scientist to have to take a lessor status or positioning..?

If he is at all aware of what the precursor discoveries mean for astrophysics... that is... how in-and-of themselves these will be laying to waste much of the current relevant science,

Is he possibly deciding he is simply not going to be the one who helps usher in the shakeup overnight and unseat he and all his colleagues from their well tenured well earned status, power and authority in their positions?

Time will of course tell...

The latest direct mainstream reported science links on Matt's blog quietly lays to waste all (your) posted old (+) outdated textbook science and arguements


It is clearly becoming obvious even with all the pictures and the new star maps etc.

Can't see the forest for the trees?

oh well!

The loop shape is obvious. Doesn't matter what you call it... elliptical or spheroidal...

Ridiculous posturing ad nauseum... akin to the hair splitting as to whether to demote Pluto from palnet staus Ha! Ha! Ha!

The rocks collected for survey demonstrating how our solar system was formed show both Iron and Aluminum.. the more telling point, which is the greater abundance of Alumininum (of the two formative early solar system explosions leaving signature traces), the Aluminum obviates a dwarf galaxy galactic genesis:

DISCOVERY # 2).

SOLAR SYSTEM BEGAN IN WAY AND PLACE PREVIOUSLY NOT THOUGHT POSSIBLE:

http://space.newscientist.com/channel/sola...not-a-bang.html

~

So, in this picture above, is there a galaxy in the center being shredded as well, possibly canis major dwarf galaxy?

I'm assuming the galaxy with the elongated elliptical orbit is SagDEG!


Edited to add: An irregular dwarf galaxy that is a satellite of our own Milky Way Galaxy. It lies in the constellation Canis Major at a distance of only 25,000 light-years from the Sun and 42,000 light-years from the center of the Milky Way. Although it is closest known satellite galaxy to the center of the Milky Way, pushing the Sagitarrius Dwarf Elliptical (SagDEG) into second place, it is well hidden behind banks of dust in the plane of the Milky Way and was discovered thanks to the infrared glow of its M-type (red) giants by the Two-Micron All Sky Survey (2MASS) as recently as 2003.

Click to view attachment

Q: So, in this picture above, is there a galaxy in the center being shredded as well, possibly canis major dwarf galaxy?

I'm assuming the galaxy with the elongated elliptical orbit is SagDEG!

A: I think you have to be right on that one cause Sagittarius Dwarf is what is shown above on your posted pic, and also on the 2003 Star Map to be directly intersecting the area where our Sun is shown.




~

Discovery #1:

That our solar system is inclined to the plane of the Milky Way is irrelevant to determining the origins of the solar system. I already made the point the solar system was inclined, however the important piece of information is not the inclination of our solar system, but its plane of orbit around the Milky Way. This orbit is in the plane of the Milky Way, indicating our solar system is native to the Milky Way or has already been integrated into the Milky Way in the past. So, the Solar system isn't "travelling in a competely different direction" as Matt's blog suggests, it is simply inclined to the plane of the Milky Way. We already knew that (or had surmised it) and it is not something Science couldn't understand or thought was impossible.

Discovery #2:

So our solar system didn't begin with a supernova compression, so what? Again, it doesn't provide any evidence that our solar system is not native to the Milky Way. Again, it wasn't something "not thought possible" and what does Matt mean to indicate when he says "in a place not thought possible"?

The new discovery does not suggest the formation of our solar system in a 'different place' simply a different mechanism. Matt is making leaps of faith to arrive at an unfounded conclusion of what these discoveries mean.

Discoveries #3, #4 and #5 are simply pseudoscience. Basically building upon the baseless conclusions he's arrived at in points #1 and #2.

None of these 'discoveries' lay to waste anything I stated. They simply seem to confirm that Matt is trying to build a fantastical scenario on data that doesn't support it. Hyperbole doesn't make unfounded assumption correct.

I cannot help but notice that someone is clearly attempting to play devil's advocate on this thread.

when you think about it...

Pick any topic and just about any of the readers here could easily do the same and take a diametrically different point of view.

It isn't all that hard to ride in on somebody's thread and ride every point and be contrary.

Teens are pretty good at that : ) "hire a teen while they still know everything" : )


Problem is, I don't recall either starting or replying to a thread designed to attract teen behavior or antics.



~

I couldnt agree with you more! The posts I make on this thread are always full of viral Skeptics, probably 10-20yrs of age, looking for something to bring down.

But the fact of the matter is, that you Scienceguy have supplied the best information for this thread. You also understand like myself, what is going to happen.
No, its not going to take millions of years people for a galaxy to merge! What you dont understand is that it has already been in progress for billions of years and right now, we are already entering into the milky way, which is why we see the milky way sideways in the night sky. You just have to accept it, or go home.

Well I won't accept it until everything has been cleared out and proven, yes the merging process has been going on and about to finish but there is no quite rather a 100% evidence without doubt that our parent galaxy is the Sagittarius Dwarf galaxy.

: ) Q: Is there "anything" with... " a 100% evidence without doubt " in all of Life?

Nope!

You gotta take a chance again and again... in Life.


Nothing is 100% evidence without doubt...

Thank God... Life would be boring w/ no risk 'eh?

Kudos, Leonardo. Well stated.


OS

that was exaggeration, on what I meant in 100% evidence without doubt is that everyone agrees.

If we all agreed, life would be boring.

Wouldn't learn as much w/out the contrast.

All in all,

It really isn't outside of your understanding...


[Yellow Dot is Our Sun]


If you don't see it, "that's o.k." I wish you well : )





~

That picture only shows SagDEG spiraling around the milky way, which just happens to be passing through the same position where
our planet is located, (Which is located 2/3rds in the outer regions of the milky way!) This in no way means our planet is a part of the SagDEG galaxy.

More evidence and pictures need to be provided to come to a culminative decision.

On a side note, if our planet is a part of SagDEG, wouldn't it be on par with its long elliptical orbit? If so, where are the pictures showing earth out of its
normal path around the milky way galaxy!


Regards,
Tom

Indeed Tom.

The orbit of our sun around the centre of the Milky Way is in the plane of that galaxy - the blue spiral in the picture. If we were part of SagDEG the orbit of our sun would be along the plane of SagDEG galaxy which is the red streams of stars (nearly) perpendicular to the Milky Ways plane of rotation.

Scienceguy and EI,

Skepticism is not restricted to the young and it does neither of you any credit to imply by indirect ad hom attack that those who don't agree with you are both immature and foolish.

While you might try to justify yourselves by imagining anyone who looks critically at your ideas is some youthful hothead with no appreciation for the changeable nature of 'knowledge', if you want knowledge to change you have to provide very good evidence why currently accepted knowledge is incorrect. You haven't and so you are unable to effect the change. Accepted knowledge doesn't change simply because you have an idea.

I cannot believe this has gone on for 5 pages (with default display settings).

This topic should have been put to rest a long time ago and it seems that many have tried to do just that but 'Science'Guy and Egyptian-Illuminati, it seems, 1. do not even read their own references, 2. do not know how to source the original papers upon which the sensationalism is based and 3. do not comprehend what is being said in the articles they reference.

As Leonardo has already so eloquently mentioned and I will repeat since it seems to have fallen on plugged-up ears,
The solar system is NOT travelling in a completely different direction! The original paper, found here (Arxiv - The Orientation of the Local Interstellar Magnetic Field), says no such thing! All it does is mention that "the plane of the local interstellar field is ~ 60-90 degrees from the galactic plane", but it seems that ScienceGuy and EgyptianIlluminati would rather believe a NEWSREPORTER than the scientists who actually conducted the research
And here's the best response...
And yes, our solar system is still orbiting in the galactic plane.

The title reads "Our solar system started with a nudge, not a bang". Here is another news report on the same findings. And here is the actual report abstract, the report is entitled "Evidence for a Late Supernova Injection of 60Fe into the Protoplanetary Disk". You'll have to pay to read it all.
As Leonardo ALSO already mentioned, this has nothing to do with our solar system being a part of a foreign dwarf galaxy - because it is not. All it sheds light on is how our solar system was formed (within the Milky Way galaxy) - READ IT!

Finally, here is the latest, and the abstract reads...
(my emphasis)

But somehow, I have a feeling all this is going to fall on deaf ears of those who just don't want to hear. Not my fault that people prefer fiction over fact.

BTW, Matthew Perkins Erwin not only likes to connect dots he also draws the dots where he wants them before he connects them
Poor comprehension, not enough research and wishful-thinking agendas can do that to the less-endowed.

As Leonardo also mentioned, the rest of the so-called 'discoveries' are based on false starting ground and thus the only thing you have is a fast-tumbling house of cards.

Now, take your own advice and get with the program - the Sagittarius Dwarf tail misses the solar circle.

As a result, the blog should be updated to reflect the new finding IF indeed the agenda is truth and fact however I'm not holding my breath because I am certain that is not the underlying purpose of the blog and it would dispel the mayan woo woo.

Finally, here's how Bad Astronomy tackled this nonsence back in june.

Cheers

Guardian

Ha! Ha! Ha!

Don't see it?

That's o.k.


BTW:
Q: would you say that the Sun rises in the East, the South East or none of the above?

A:

None of the above

Post 19. from Grant Hutchison, from- Bad Astronomy

it appears as the the original source of this claim from Matthew Perkins Erwin (researcher, technogeek, inventor, and recording artist) also seems to have had his ideas featured in Wikipedia over the last few days: I caught a cut-and-paste job from his website last night, although it's been reverted when I looked this morning. The Bickerpedia discussion page for the Sag Dwarf gives you an idea of the level of discourse involved in this particular claim.



The Overdensity in Virgo, Sagittarius Debris, and the Asymmetric Spheroid

Abstract

We investigate the relationship between several previously identified Galactic halo stellar structures in the direction of Virgo using imaging and spectroscopic observations of F turnoff stars and blue horizontal-branch stars from SDSS and SEGUE. We show that the Sagittarius dwarf leading tidal tail does not pass through the solar neighborhood; it misses the Sun by more than 15 kpc, passing through the Galactic plane outside the solar circle. Nor is it spatially coincident with the large stellar overdensity S297+63-20.5 in the Virgo constellation. S297+63-20.5 has a distinct turnoff color and kinematics. Faint (g0~20.3) turnoff stars in S297+63-20.5 have line-of-sight, Galactic standard of rest velocities Vgsr=130+/-10 km s-1, opposite in sign to infalling Sgr tail stars. The path of the Sgr leading tidal tail is also inconsistent with the positions of some of the nearer stars with which it has been associated and whose velocities have favored models with prolate Milky Way potentials.

Source

I think that pretty much says enough.

A: None of the above cause the Sun doesn't rise


This illustrates how easy it is to come up with technicalities in some know-it-all devil's advocate kind of way that can be simply driven into a discussion to quash new learning and new theories.

What is actually hard is to introduce new and original thought and theories.

What we encounter instead is a desperate attempt to worship at the altar of established empirical knowledge and the quoting therefrom as though there were no room for the evolution of the understanding other than the most shut down minimalist interpretation.

No wonder they routinely got together in councils to try to string up anyone with contrary ideas.

Thank God for the internet.

You on the sidelines see more than these outspoken types who apparently know it all and everything, and if they think you should not have the ideas, dangerous as they are, will do everything in their power to control what you believe.

Tip: never ask such a know it all individual to stop and look at a map where you are going driving. He may become so enraged so that you you didn't take his all knowing word for it that your life might be in danger... Ha! Ha! Ha!

As you say,

More minimalist interpretations!

If you actually took the time to read the blog it makes clear that the reason why the Sun doesn't currently line up with Sagittarius Dwarf is that we broke free of the loop the last time around and are coming back up to the Milky Way equatorial plane. The time frame coud be many thousands of years.

It takes courage to consider new ideas.

Not fear and cowardice and gathering together like coyotes to bash all but the status quo.

If you don't see it,

That's fine, I wish you well : )

Enjoy the ride,

It will be a wild one.

Yay!!

Ok, now that's off my chest, someone explain to me what the hell is going on.

Some speculative sources state that our parent galaxy is SagDEG or Sagitarrius Dwarf, and we are on a wild ride,
combining with the milky way galaxy.

And sometimes a large dose of naive credulity and ignorance to believe them.

We have all considered the idea of our solar system having its origin in SagDSG, but have rejected that idea based on the information available to us. Obviously we all have courage (we considered the idea) and we showed intelligence (we weighed up the information) and came to a conclusion based on the likelihood that information provides us. That this conclusion is not the one you leapt to is no cause for rudeness.



More indirect ad hom attacks through implication?

I'm kinda scratchin' my head here with the direction of the last string of posts...


Wasn't the Heading: "Milky Way & Sagitarrius Dwarf Merging"


All the sudden the whole thread is hostage to putting all our attention on these guys coming in to kill the thread all the whilst claiming as 'victims' to ad hom attacks.

You don't like what is said on a thread? Leave and start your own eh?

As am I. You obviously didn't read the OP, all you seem to think this topic is about is the topic heading. There is a lengthy post behind it - perhaps you should read it someday!

Maybe I'll hold your hand just this one time...
As you may be able to tell (if you read it), Leonardo and I pointed to the real reason why the "Milky Way has always been sideways in the night sky". It has been answered by research that Matthew (blog starter) has referenced but failed to comprehend as have you.

We're not here to kill any thread. We're here to put the record straight and bring people back to reality.

This is a DISCUSSION forum. You don't like things being discussed then YOU follow YOUR OWN ADVICE (quoted above) but don't expect us to stand around and watch you turn young impressionable minds into mush.



Is this what you mean by "makes clear that the reason why the Sun doesn't currently line up with Sagittarius Dwarf"? And of course the claim is UNTRUE as the latest research referenced by Tom R and I shows.

OR, maybe you mean this...
...with absolutely no justification for such a claim. As I recall, Leonardo already asked but nooooo, we have noooooo evidence, just gibberish. Now you should be able to appreciate my comment about drawing your own dots and connecting them.

"watch you turn young impressionable minds into mush"

Ha! Ha! Ha!


Your string of suppositions are no better than the backwater dedunkers all cowering to hold onto the outdated old science, thinking that is their hold on "reality". In fact much of it is borrowed therefrom and anybody posting disagreeing points in their camp is quickly blocked from posting further without notice
Ha! Ha! Ha!

There we have it folks!


It's official!

The "Ministry of Information" knows better than you do what is good for your mind folks.


The REALITY?

Greatest Discoverers of the Century

[ A fascinating study of how the Internet is now changing how we find out about major discoveries ]


http://www.perceptions.couk.com/greatest.html

http://curezone.com/blogs/fm.asp?i=985423


It used to be that you types could put us types down and keep us from getting real knowledge.

The Internet has now given people free will access to "Dangerous information that could turn all our minds into mush" (you mean it could be even worse than cable?).


Ha! Ha! Ha! These guys are serious!

If they had the actual power to, you get the idea that we would not even be able to suggest anything that may be a potential evolving of thought that may in any way upset their take of things on this little world being ruined by such dead from the neck up platitudes.

Ha! Ha! Ha! No we've tried your way and look where it has gotten us...

guys.. beware of Flamebaiting. thanks.. and good luck

I've come to the conclusion that this thread is going no where! The OP has made up their mind, and will not be swayed in any way.

Anyway, this topic was at least interesting.

Oh No!

Taking his toys and goin' home...!


wait.. no... er uh...


Shucks!


"Oh... that's right..."


"...O.P. was the one who brought the toys..."


(Breathe... just breathe...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPz3YaIJkjQ

O.K. ... Oh well then...


Shucks!


...see yah...!

lol, you're an interesting person to debate with scienceguy! But, in all seriousness, is there anything else to debate here?

You are offered the most interesting fare in this sector of the galaxy...
http://curezone.com/blogs/fm.asp?i=985423

..the ultimate questions aren't where your interests lie?


not really looking for such inside info on your direct future? (what did he say?) {my direct future wha?}


Here, everyone deserves to be happy, here's a bait and switch (perhaps you would be happy with other toys and/or toying?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWoo82zNUA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzhRaXKolkc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsbxBZg8bp4

Some spiritual references to this...

Basically I think they are saying that when this merger is complete..we we experience an energy shift..an awareness shift...

im kinda gutted that our parent glaxy isnt the milky way but im glad that i have something new to tell the gullable people of the world probably my school for now on why global warming is really happening i never believed that the current reason of global warming was true. but when i have enough time ill read the rest of what you said

Why would you be sad? I find it quite interesting we aren't from this boring old galaxy. I always felt at odds with it, now I know why