Who knows, and who cares?
Jodrell bank could track anything it wanted to track, I would assume. We had no requirements for them to track any American spacecraft. We had an expansive network worldwide set up for the purpose.

Perhaps they were tracking Luna 15. Who asked them to?
I could only speculate about that. I should assume it was appreciated. They were able to confirm, along with American sources, that Luna 15 had in fact crashed into the lunar surface on July 21.

But you see, we had the trajectory data for Luna 15. The Soviets gave it to us when we asked. They did so in good faith, because we were concerned about the slim possibility of interference with Apollo 11.


Hey, maybe someone said to Jodrell, "How about tracking this one for us to verify what we've been given?"

Didn't matter. Luna 15 was no threat to Apollo 11, and of course, it crashed and didn't therefore succeed in its mission.

"Explorer I ran into a belt of intense radiation at 600 miles. The satellite carries a Geiger tube to count cosmic rays. At 684 miles the tubes registered 140 counts per second. The Geiger tubes had been knocked out by radiation too intense for them to handle. The satellites passed through radiation 35,000 counts per second. The belt may extend outward 8,000 miles. *Lead shielding would reduce the dose to a supportable level*." Time Magazine May 12, 1958

"Explorer 3 completely confirmed the results obtained by its predecessor, and it also confirmed Van Allens theory. Up to a height of 300 miles there was an gradual increase in the number of charged particles. Then up to 600 miles there was a more rapid increase. Above 600 miles the counters became jammed."

Van Allen estimated that the actual particle numbers might be anything up to 35,000 per second, which was far too high to be dealt with by any self-respecting Geiger counter."

Space- Patrick Moore 1972

No you mean NASA ONLY were tracking Apollo spacecraft allegedly on the way to the Moon.

Jodrell Bank WERE tracking Luna 15 and DID NOT track Apollo 11 because THEY WEREN'T GIVEN THE DATA TO POINT THE 250 FT DISH by NASA.

The reason Iain Morrison does not answer the question of WHO told Jodrell Bank ( after receiving prompt replies from Mr. Morrison regarding other queries) to track Luna 15 is because he is also asked TO CONFIRM the Soviets didn't have the capability themselves.

What do these early understandings about the VA belts have to do with anything?
I was speaking to advanced studies about things we don't know, in the interest of future safety for astronauts and equipment.




Again, cheese, I don't get it.
So what?

I have no idea who else might have been tracking Apollo spacecraft. I assume the Soviets did to the best of their capability. It doesn't really matter. MSFN most assuredly did, intensely and thoroughly, collecting all data and information from the spacecraft continuously.

I should assume that the Soviets were following. After all, we televised our missions for anyone who wanted to see, including the Soviets. It was no secret that we were flying. The world knew when and what we were doing and they had the opportunity to follow our overt activities live. It was a little more difficult for us, or the world to follow Soviet activities, of course, since they were covert in what they were doing.

But at any rate, none of that really matters.

"What do these early understandings about the VA belts have to do with anything?
I was speaking to advanced studies about things we don't know, in the interest of future safety for astronauts and equipment."

And what exactly don't we know today that we didn't know all those years ago that made NASA decide it was safe to send Apollo Astronauts through the Van Allen belts? Just ten years after they were discovered and quite obviously were not understood!

Why are NASA still carrying out extensive testing? TODAY!

"I have no idea who else might have been tracking Apollo spacecraft. I assume the Soviets did to the best of their capability. It doesn't really matter."

It doesn't really matter? Well if just about the most famous observatory in the world ( Jodrell Bank) couldn't track Apollo 11 because they weren't given the tracking data by NASA to perform this function, its safe to assume NOBODY apart from NASA were.

SO NO INDEPENDENT CONFIRMATION THAT APOLLO SPACECRAFT WERE ON A JOURNEY TO THE MOON!

Nowhere have I seen that they couldn't track it, just that they didn't at least not in an official capacity. I'm sure those that worked there at that time were competent enough to have tracked it if they wanted to. I woulldn't be surprised to find out they tracked it some just for fun. Again, the launch characteristics and therefore the orbit of Apollo were well known and orbital data could easily be worked out if one wanted to. They weren't kept a secret. Amateur astronomers across the world tracked Apollo and listened in as well. If someone (ie the Soviets) wanted to track the craft, they could. Even without specific data they could home in on where the audio and video signals were coming from. Assuming they (the Soviets) didn't track Apollo because they didn't have specific data is asinine.

Thats correct. Jodrell Bank COULDN'T using a 250 ft dish because THEY WEREN'T GIVEN THE DATA TO POINT THE DISH BY NASA,

but amateur astronomers COULD and listened in to radio transmissions.

AMAZING!

Radio Apollo 11 AM. Coming up! the billboard top 100 with DJ Buzz.

We don't know what sorts of hazards would be posed to spacecraft that might be exposed to much longer periods of exposure to van Allen radiation.
It was decided that Apollo spacecraft could be sent through the van Allen belts to the Moon because it was well understood that time of exposure is a major factor in the resultant effects. There was no problem with going through them, especially at the velocity and in the area of the belts that we went through them. This was concurred with by Dr. Van Allen himself.

I actually already answered that query about why we're still researching the belts.



Perhaps you didn't read that?





Ah, so that's it!
The old idea that independent confirmation was required.

First of all, it's not safe to assume that the Soviets weren't tracking Apollo just because Jodrell Bank allegedly wasn't. As I said, the Soviets knew exactly what we were up to and were certainly sophisticated enough to keep an eye on us, especially our Earth orbital missions, which they most assuredly tracked.

Secondly, Apollo has been verified by scientists worldwide. Our lunar samples are proof, uncontested, that we were in fact there...not that we really need any proof, mind you.

This independent observer idea has been thrown up before, and has no legs. The Soviets acknowledged our accomplishment...most assuredly something they would never do if they knew we faked it...which of course they didn't. They knew we did it.

Like I said...it doesn't matter whether or not Jodrell Bank was tracking Apollo. It wasn't necessary or pertinent to the missions' accomplishment. What was important is that MSFN functioned as it should, and, it did.

"We don't know what sorts of hazards would be posed to spacecraft that might be exposed to much longer periods of exposure to van Allen radiation.
It was decided that Apollo spacecraft could be sent through the van Allen belts to the Moon because it was well understood that time of exposure is a major factor in the resultant effects. There was no problem with going through them, especially at the velocity and in the area of the belts that we went through them. This was concurred with by Dr. Van Allen himself."

Yes this was well understood at the time because "Explorer 3 completely confirmed the results obtained by its predecessor, and it also confirmed Van Allens theory. Up to a height of 300 miles there was an gradual increase in the number of charged particles. Then up to 600 miles there was a more rapid increase. Above 600 miles the counters became jammed."

So perhaps you could dig out the data from EACH of the Apollo missions that allegedly went to Moon that concur- i.e. How much did the radiation levels increase up to a level of 300 miles, what where the levels like up to 600 miles, and what happened to the dosimeters once the 600 miles was reached, FOR THE JOURNEY OUT, AND THE RETURN. PLEASE. This was men they were sending through the belts. Not a chunk of machinery.

Apparently Dr Van Allen seemed to think there was no problem travelling through the belts with the time the Apollo missions spent so no doubt there MUST be documentation to back this claim up because THEY ALREADY KNEW TEN YEARS BEFORE APOLLO ABOUT THE INCREASE IN RADIATION LEVELS IN THE BELTS SO THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHECKING.

I have already told you Jodrell Bank COULDN'T track Apollo because THEY WERE NOT GIVEN THE DATA BY NASA TO POINT THE 250 FT DISH. Jodrell Bank claim they listened in to the radio transmissions on the 50 ft dish. Nobody has been able to validate why Jodrell Bank were tracking Luna 15 and WHO requested it.

Jodrell Bank have a neat little graph showing the Apollo 11 LM approach to the lunar surface. They have NO GRAPH for Apollo 11's journey to the Moon OR THE RETURN. They have no information about tracking Apollo 10 either. How very strange.

Are you at all familiar with the concept of "field of view"? The bigger the aperture of a radio telescope, the smaller the field of view, and the greater precision needed to point it. Amateurs with small antennae could just point in the general direction of the Moon to pick up Apollo, while the operators of the big telescope at Jodrell Bank would have to know which bit of the Moon to point at any given time as the Apollo moved around in its orbit.

Operators at Jodrell Bank needed the data from NASA in the first place thats why they weren't able to track Apollo 10 and 11 ( how about the rest of the alleged trips to the Moon? Anybody know? Perhaps they were too busy badly tracking Russian sats that fall out of orbit and remain unidentified for a month).

Everbody else? Just hook up a biscuit tin lid to an amateur radio set up, point at general direction of Moon and hey presto- Apollo radio transmissions live.

I would like to see some pictures of the apollo landing sites on the moon.It would be amazing to see an untouched scene after 40 years.We have 3 probes around the moon at this moment (japanese,chinese and european(not to mention the hubble) and none of them send pictures of apollo wreckage on the moon.MEN NEVER WENT TO THE MOON.That is why we don´t have pictures of it.

Are you familiar with the logical fallacy known as the Argument from Incredulity?

Are you familiar with providing EVIDENCE to REFUTE claims?

Do those probes have the resolution to make out the Apollo craft. Hubble definitely does not.

Provide a claim not based on a logical fallacy and we might have good starting point.

As I stated before, the orbital parameters of Apollo were well known. If Jodrell Bank did not track them it was only because they weren't asked to do so. Not because they couldn't. Being provided the coordinates from NASA would make the process easier but they still could have done it without them. Why should they though if they weren't asked to do so and weren't being paid for it?

So I presume the Russians must have been paying Jodrell Bank to track Luna 15 then?

The Russians DID track Apollo 11 - it was linked to (in Russian) pages ago. Translated it was quite clear they tracked Apollo 11.



Welcome back bud, hope you're well

Meanwhile Jodrell Bank was being paid to track Luna 15 because the Russians were too busy tracking Apollo 11. Lets hope NASA gave the Russians the correct pointing data for there telescopes because they certainly didn't give it to Jodrell Bank.

Unless the Russians were tuning in like every other amateur radio ham to Apollo AM ghz.

Again, as you've posted like you've ignored it, the pointing data helps but is not necessarily needed. Anyone with knowledge of orbital mechanics could take the data from the very public launch and figure out where it was supposed to be to be able to track it. A country like Russia would also have the benefit of radar specifically designed to track orbital objects and be able to find an track it that much easier.

And yes I fully expect they were listening to the radio transmissions as well. Why wouldn't they?

Yes, I am. It is when one provides sources and logical explanations to claims or explanations offered. It is almost the exact opposite of Argument from Incredulity. Here is an example.

Claim: The Argument from Incredulity is the logical fallacy of assuming that because something is too incredible to believe it must be untrue.

From EvoWiki



Here is another example where you use sarcasm to indicate that the claim is too incredible to believe, rather than providing evidence to refute the claims and explanations that were given:



Notice that no evidence has been offered to refute any claim, however sarcasm is in full effect in an attempt to discredit the claim.
Also notice the following:



Despite asking for evidence regarding a claim and being given the explanation to explain the effect (Field of View), the poster ignores the explanation and again uses sarcasm rather than evidence to refute the claim.

But then, that's entering into Hypocrisy territory, which is something different.



Hey Trini! Just visiting for a couple of weeks.

If you are in doubt about kaguya resolution (japanese probe),watch it for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJw-_ueZm1E

While that is neat, it says nothing about what the resolution is. This site does though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELENE
At best 10 meters per pixel. Still not enough to show the Apollo hardware. I don't care though. I have no doubt the hardware is there like it is supposed to be.

As for the resolution issue, take heart, soon we will be seeing images from the LRO.

However, I fully expect some folks will still be crying, *hoax* regardless.

I clicked onto the google moon site and i found this image there, if you zoom in on one of the 'flag' images it is broken, and looks like it is waving?

The image is a panorama, which consists of several photos stitched together. Presumably when stitching the images together for this panorama, in order to have the background of the moon match up, the foreground flag coouldn't accurately match up (photos taken from slightly different vantage, perhaps).

The flag is crumpled nylon, it's not waving. Check out the following two images of Buzz near the flag. In the first he is saluting. In the second, he has stopped saluting and has turned his head inside the helmet, slightly toward Neil. The flag remains the same in both images.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5874.jpg
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5875.jpg

Here is over an hour of footage taken by the 16mm DAC from the LM window, filmed at 1 frame per second. A few seconds after Neil has finished planting the flag in the ground, there is no further flag motion.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/a11f1093740.mov

Thanks.
edited for legal reasons

In case you're still interested, the two photos used look like

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5885.jpg and
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5886.jpg

Aligning both photos so that the background features match means that the flagpole appears broken, since it is planted at a slight angle to the position where Neil takes the photo from.

Try this link:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/publications/slide...ing_index.shtml
The LMs from the final three missions are visible, as are rover tracks for Apollo 17. This is with a camera with approx 1 m resolution, so the LMs only show as bright dots with long shadows.
The European probe is no longer operating, and neither it nor the Chinese mission has the resolution to pick up the LMs. The Japanese just might, but at 10 m resolution it will not show much. I don't think it has covered the Apollo sites yet, the only pictures released so far are of other regions of the moon.

This image caught my attention too.

Well, since no Apollo missions landed at the Lunar Limb, that photo is obviously a fake.

it's four official nasa photos actually.

References?

Thanks for the link,but I didn´t see the LMs or the roover tracks in those pictures.I can´t believe that we have probes orbiting the earth capable of taking pictures of a box full of matches on the ground and then the japanese ,chinese and americans waste millions of dollars to send a probe to orbit the moon and it doesn´t have resolution to take pictures of the lunar roover.We have the japanese HINODE probe sending very impressive videos of solarspots ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7phkowvMe0 ) but nothing is possible when we talk about the apollo missions´s wreckage.
10 mt resolution...That is almost the minimum required not to see the apollo mission´s wreckage.If they had told that the resolution was 5mt ,then everybody would ask to see the apollo wreckage on the moon.And they would be in very deep trouble ,because there is nothing there to be shown.
It is very hard for me to believe in this 10 mt resolution told by the japanese.

T said: 'References? i don't need to give references bud, i said they are from nasa stock photos, two of which postbaquk posted. I then cs'd the images together.

edited for name spelling error.

If you intended this faked image as a joke then I suggest you make that more clear should you do this again in the in future. This sort of thing can easily back fire, leading to arguments and flaming. It could also lead to you falling foul of the site rules:

My post merely shows how easy it is to fake images (of any description) i miss lead no one, i had no intention to mislead either. I am aware of site rules concerning this also.
If anything could be seen as misleading it as to be the official nasa image supplied via google moon, but as explained it could of been edited wrongly.

"Here is over an hour of footage taken by the 16mm DAC from the LM window, filmed at 1 frame per second. A few seconds after Neil has finished planting the flag in the ground, there is no further flag motion."


Here is a couple of mins of footage taken by the RCA J-Series Ground-Commanded Television Assembly (GCTA) filmed at frame rate: 60 fps BW / 20 fps color (color filters alternated between each field). Not long after the flag was planted and came to a complete stand still, there was further motion!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=n1UEv2PIzl4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_TV_camera

The images show positive movement, anyone can see it.

BTW before anybody else here attempts a deflection.

JODRELL BANK DID NOT TRACK ANY APOLLO SPACECRAFT THAT WERE ALLEGEDLY ON THE WAY TO THE MOON.

THE 'EXCUSE' GIVEN IS THAT THEY WERE NOT GIVEN ANY DATA WITH WHICH TO POINT THE 250 FT DISH BY NASA . THEY INSTEAD WERE TRACKING LUNA 15 WHICH MUST HAVE BEEN REQUESTED FOR AND PAID BY THE RUSSIANS WHO LOGICALLY COULDN'T HAVE HAD THE CAPABILITY TO TRACK IT THEMSELVES.

CONSIDERING THE USA WERE ABOUT TO LAND MEN ON THE MOON AND THIS WOULD BE MANKINDS FINEST HOUR AND TECHNOLOGICAL ACHIEVEMENT THIS SEEMS SOMEWHAT 'ODD' THAT JODRELL BANK WEREN'T ALSO TRACKING THE APOLLO SPACECRAFT.

THEY COULD APPARENTLY LISTEN IN (LIKE ANY OTHER AMATEUR RADIO HAM) TO THE TRANSMISSIONS USING THE 50 FT DISH ALTHOUGH THEY CANNOT PROVIDE A GRAPH SHOWING THE TRAJECTORY OF THE JOURNEY OF APOLLO 11 TO THE MOON.

IF ANYBODY WOULD LIKE TO CHECK THE FACTS I SUGGEST THEY EITHER SEND JODRELL BANK AN E-MAIL, WATCH THE JAY WINDLEY MOON HOAX DE-BUNKING TV SPECIAL, OR PURCHASE A COPY OF DARK MOON BY DAVID S.PERCY AND MARY BENNETT.

Already discussed earlier in the thread.

I think still you're missing the operative terminology here.
Dr. van Allen knew what the rate of energy in the belts were at various places. He also was well aware that the dose of radiation was dependent on the time of exposure (sort of like how wet you'll get depends on how much time you're expose to a water stream), and fully realized that an adequately shielded vehicle, like thew Apollo CM, with a short exposure time, would, not, and of course didn't produce anything close to a harmful dose of radiation.

As to you question, it should be noted that we measured cumulative dose, not rate of particle flow.

You see, a geiger counter or similar device is used to measure the radiation level at a given place. Think of a stream of water.
If you wish to find out how much water is flowing, you place a metering device in it that will measure the rate of flow in some applicable unit...like ounces per minute or gallons per hour. This is akin to what a radiation meter like a GM tube does.

Now, if you want to measure a given quantity, not a rate, but a quantity, you put a bucket under the water stream for a given amount of time and collect the water. Then you can see how much the "dose" of water is...entirely dependent upon the time of exposure. That's what we measured in Apollo, because only that was significant from a biomedical standpoint. We used things called dosimeters for the purpose.

We didn't collect rate data on radiation flux, we collected cumulative dose of radiation (essentially, we stuck the bucket under the radiation faucet for the amount of time we were in it, and collected the dose).

Now, all of the Apollo mission reports contain discussions of cumulative radiation dosages measured by the various dosimeters carried on the crewsmen's persons and in the spacecraft at various locations.

There was a van Allen dosimeter on board, and it recorded the following data (in rads...a largely obsolete data point anymore, replaced by the gray which is 100 rads).

For Apollo 11, 0.11 rad skin dose, and 0.08 rad for tissue depth...for the entire mission.
On Apollo 12, 0.97 rad skin dose, and 0.51 rad for depth...for the entire mission.

...based upon what I told you about dose above, you might conclude that Apollo 12 spent more time in the belts. They did indeed, as their trajectory for entry put them through the belts for a longer period.

Now, this rad business is rather meaningless unless it's put into perspective. What's it mean, relative to something actually dangerous?

A lethal dose of such radiation would be in the area of 160 rad/yr.
The Apollo radiation dosages were higher than normal exposure on Earth to background radiation, but much lower than a permissible exposure limit for persons working with radioactive materials, and in the case of Apollo 11, on average, about 7/100 % a lethal dose (1/1400 a lethal dose), Apollo 12 about 6/10 % lethal dosage (about 1/165th a lethal dose).

In both cases, virtually insignificant radiation exposures.

I refer you to the Apollo Mission Reports, The Biomedical Results of Apollo (NASA-SP-368, 1975), Radiation Dosimetry for Manned Spaceflight in... Protection Against Space Radiation (NASA SP-169, 1967).

The topic was understood long ago, the data supported the understandings based upon spacecraft insulation design (which had nothing to do with lead and alot more to do with plastic...which makes perfect sense if you understand the type of particle radiation we were shielding against), and exposure times (you don't get real wet if you run through the sprinkler real fast).

Radiation was not an operational problem for Apollo.





It may be strange to you, but as I've said, so what?
We knew where they were, very precisely, what they were doing, and everything else. It was our mission. We were the ones who needed to know...and if you think the Soviets didn't have an idea what we were up to, or didn't verify through their own accomplished network that we were in fact doing it, you are sadly mistaken.

I could personally care less whether Jodrell Bank has a graph of AS-11's approach to the lunar surface. It doesn't matter. They weren't a part of MSFN...and MSFN was the link to the Apollo spacecraft the whole way...a world wide network of communications, data, and tracking stations that fed us everything we needed to know about everything. We had Honeysuckle Creek, Carnarvon, Madrid, Goldstone, Parkes, Guam, OTC, Canberra, Sydney, the ARIA, ships, good lord...it was the most extensive network on the planet!

People all over the world were involved.


Independent verification?

The very idea is ludicrous. Half the world got involved in Apollo.

Sorry I just joined last week. What was the cause of the flag flutter?

This is just ludicrous.

You're hung up on Jodrell Bank. Why? They had noting to do with it!
Why would we need a "graph" of the Apollo 11 trajectory to the Moon by Jodrell Bank?
It's a 3D trajectory of complex characteristics that is well understood by those who needed to know...the mission planners, and the flight controllers involved in that area of expertise...you know, the folks who planned and ran the missions.

And they saw it all in REAL TIME, many decades ago (and thank God....).


Why is Jodrell Bank important to you?

Why was Jodrell Bank so important to Jay Windley and the makers of the Moon Hoax de-bunking tv special as Iain Morrison from Jodrell Bank proudly displayed his 'graph' of the Apollo 11 LM touchdown*. (* NOT TRAJECTORY OF JOURNEY TO THE MOON)

This was offered as some sort of 'proof'!

How many radio observatories worldwide ( outwith NASA owned and operated) had the capability to track spacecraft to the Moon during Apollo do you reckon?

Not determined for certain. My own opinion is that we can rule out an atmosphere due to the movement of the flag, which is nowhere near as damped as the 5'x3' flag I have.

Do a search on the thread over the last 4-5 weeks, should be able to find the discussions.

You have a 5'x3' flag with a horizontal bar across the top?

What experimentation have you carried out?

Why hasn't it be determined for certain?

I suggest that you register on Apollohoax.net and ask him.

Until Swindley is brave enough to include his hilarious excuse for the Apollo 15 flag flutter ( build up of static electricity on space suits) at Moon Base Clavius,and stops continually telling lies about the research of John Mauldin Phd etc, I think I'd rather not thank you.

You could send David Percy and e-mail at aulis dot com and ask him why Jodrell Bank tracking or NOT tracking Apollo spacecraft might have some relevance to the discussion about the validity of the moon landings and 'proof' of the alleged events.

I'm sure he'd be delighted to update you on what his investigation found out.

They aren't particularly rare! Bought off ebay for about £3. Wire coat-hanger jury-rigged as a horizontal bar.



Observation of how the flag moves and is heavily damped in an atmosphere. Compare that to the Apollo 15 footage - the flag moves in a regular, pendulum-like manner for about 25 seconds. Fully damped in an atmosphere in less than ten. It has been claimed that the wake of the astronaut caused the flag to carry on moving - but if you check the motion carefully, it's very regular. No fluttering as you might expect to see with the very turbulent wake a suited-up astronaut would create.

There's also footage from this and other missions that shows the flag motionless even when astronauts pass close by.



Why do you think it should be possible to determine for certain?