MID,thanks for your post and consideratrions about my text.
I forgot to ask you about the hasselblad cameras (and its accessories) without any improvement working on the moon succesfuly (temperature much under or above its limitations).I would be very pleased to hear from you about that.
Thanks!!!
Happy Christmas.

Correction...NASA had equipment that could reach low earth orbit,not manned missions to the moon.

Silver finish for termal variations???!!! Is that all you´ve got ??!!! And you really believed that it would be enough!!! You see...That is why we will never reach a conclusion ...How can you convince me that a silver finish would be enough to protect the camera and the film for the extreme variation of temperature that you have on the moon (from full shadow to sun exposure)....

And btw, "Because I said so" or "I don't believe it so its not true" are not acceptable answers. Neither are any that have the names "Percy", "Sibrel", "Kaysing" or "Rene" in the answers.

How can you convince me that a silver finish would be enough to protect the camera and the film for the extreme variation of temperature that you have on the moon (from full shadow to sun exposure)....

Convince you?
If you were honestly interested in the topic we would explain, that the cameras were surrounded by the best insulator, vacuum, and there your "temperature extremes" are meaningless.

But frankly you have made it clear (by ignoring all the requests to explain what's wrong with the LM, while repeating the claim that it is "obviously fake") that you are not interested in the truth.

Ok then..The LM.... Only another important question about the LM... We can see the bell of an incredible powerful engine inside the LM,but on apollo 11 records,we can´t hear absolutely NOTHING coming from this engine while Mr Armstrong and Mr Aldrin are descending on the moon...How can we have an explanation about that?Outside there was vascuum...But not inside the LM...So we should hear a tremendous noise coming from the engine...As long as I know,this engine is a part of the same engine used on saturn v....

but on apollo 11 records,we can´t hear absolutely NOTHING coming from this engine while Mr Armstrong and Mr Aldrin are descending on the moon...How can we have an explanation about that?Outside there was vascuum...But not inside the LM...So we should hear a tremendous noise coming from the engine...

As long as I know,this engine is a part of the same engine used on saturn v....

UNDER THE HAT, you really should spend some time reading clavius.org. You can get most of these non-issues out of the way and then ask something that hasn't been asked before.

Ok then..The LM.... Only another important question about the LM... We can see the bell of an incredible powerful engine inside the LM,but on apollo 11 records,we can´t hear absolutely NOTHING coming from this engine while Mr Armstrong and Mr Aldrin are descending on the moon...How can we have an explanation about that?Outside there was vascuum...But not inside the LM...So we should hear a tremendous noise coming from the engine...As long as I know,this engine is a part of the same engine used on saturn v....

Are there any photos from inside the launch of apollo 11, i can't find any?

Are there any photos from inside the launch of apollo 11, i can't find any?

And thanks MID for the reply, still a little strange though, don't you think?

still a little strange though, don't you think?

Why so questionable? i merely asked as i tried looking for images from inside the rocket at launch from earth, and i cannot find any at all? I just found it strange that there are no images of any description thats all Atomic dog?
And thanks MID for the reply, still a little strange though, don't you think?

You seem to understand that sound is actually a wave that requires a medium to tramsmit through (atmosphere). Thus, you correctly state that in vacuum, there can be no sound. You're also correct in that there was an atmosphere inside the LM, thus, sound can transmit in that medium. Vibrations were transmitted through LM structures, and some of that would transmit through the LM atmosphere in varying degrees.

MID - I was not aware of the footage from the ASTP launch. Are there online versions available somewhere?

Thanks Mid..

That is where I wanted to go...The vibration...How can we hear Mr Armstrong speaking so calm,without any kind of VIBRATION on his voice with a so powerful engine under his feet?It seems that he is on his sofa,at his home ,reading a newspaper!!! And please I don´t want to hear that he is a very well trained and prepared astronaut as an answer...Vibration of that amount is something that nobody would escape...And adrenalin is present in everybody´s organism,even in Mr Armstrong´s body.

P.S. your up late?

On the ground, I think most heart rates were skipping beats and near death the whole time....no one was breathing for a few minutes there (heart attacks in Mission Control...I'm glad they didn't have any biomed there, or everyone would've been taken to a hospital!)

Jesus...

For someone who doesn't want to belabor an issue, you don't succeed.
I said that disruprting the lunar surface soil causes darkening. It has been made clear that it all depends upon the angle of the sunlight to the observers eyes as to how exactly it appears. This is well known about the lunar surface.

The fact is, both activites disrupted the surface, causing a change.

The issue at hand is not your attempts to get someone to admit they made a mistake.

The issue is an orbital photo that alleges to have spotted the Apollo 15 landing site.

It did so, precicely.

This basic comparison, is just that, basic. It is also incorrect in certain respects (lack of detail).
Apollo 10's LM was a test article of course, modified heavily from the AS-9 LM, but not in any way meant to land. It was also not too heavy to land and return to orbit. It was lighter than Eagle was (LM-5).

Actually, there were many mods made to LM-5 in the wake of AS-10.

EASEP was certainly a big one, then there were RCS plume deflectors, removing the +Z gear probe, lengthening the probes on the other 3 pads and providing new insulation for them, a change in the descent stage base heat shield, the addition of the EV antenna, TV camera in the MESA, a variety of G & C modifications based upon AS-10's performance, APS changes, ECS additions to accommodate the PLSSs, landing radar reconfigurations, and many display and control changes too numerous to mention.

Many of these were in work prior to Apollo 10, and some were based upon Apollo 10's performance and test data and were going on as the AS-10 mission returned information.

It was an intense process which wound up making Eagle almost 2600 pounds heavier than AS-10's LM at liftoff, that weight being primarily ascent stage mass.

Apollo 10's LM wasn't too heavy to return to orbit. Apollo 11's LM was heavier!
Apollo 10 didn't have enough APS fuel to return from the surface...by design.


It carried enough fuel for the test objectives, which did not involve descending to the surface and lifting off again.
I guess in a way, you could say it was too heavy to get back into orbit...since it didn't have enough fuel to propel its mass from the surface. Apollo 10, if it could've landed, would've had fuel depletion ~ 4 1/2 minutes or so into ascent, providing the crew with a panoramic view of the surface for a time...as they plummeted back into it

Got a question. Hasn't this topic gone on long enough?
and Merry Christmas & Happy New

You say "Many of these (mods) were in work prior to Apollo 10, and some were based upon Apollo 10's performance and test data and were going on as the AS-10 mission returned information."

That would mean they developed some of the mods for Apollo 11's LM - from start to completion - in less than 2 months.

It was "almost 2600 pounds heavier than AS-10's LM", after all the mods were done to it.

In other words, this was a vastly different spacecraft than all previous versions.

And for the very first time, it was being designed to carry 2 people onboard, land them safely on the moon, have the upper section of the LM lift them off from the lunar surface, and navigate it to rendezvous with the CM in lunar orbit.

What tests were they able to do with the LM during the 2 whole months they had prior to Apollo 11?

A.2.1 Structures
The most significant structural change was the added provisions for the functional Early Apollo Scientific Experiment Package and the Modular Equipment Stowage Assembly, both of which housed the experiments and tools used during the lunar surface activities. Another change was the addition of the reaction control system plume deflectors. Changes to the lauding gear included removing the lunar surface sensing probe on the plus Z gear and lengthening the remaining probes and increasing the sliding clearance of the landing gear struts to permit full stroke at extreme temperature conditions.

A.2.2 Thermal
A change from Kapton to KeI-F was made to the descent stage base heat shield to preclude the possibility of interference with the landing radar. Also, insulation was added to the landing gear and probes to accommodate the requirement for descent engine firing until touchdown.

A.2.3 Communications
The major modifications to the communications systems included the addition of an extravehicular activity antenna for lunar communications between the crew, and the lunar module, and an S-band erectable antenna to permit communications through the lunar module communications system (fig. 16-16) while the crew was on the surface. A television camera, as used on the Apollo 9 mission, was stowed in the descent stage to provide television coverage of the lunar surface activities.

A.2.4 Guidance and Control
The major difference in the guidance and control system was the redesign of the gimbal drive actuator to a constant damping system rather than a brake. This was redesigned as a result of the brake failing in both the disengaged and engaged position. This change also required modification of the descent engine control assembly and the phase correcting network to eliminate the possibility of inadvertent caution and warning alarms.

The exterior tracking light had improvements in the flash head and in the pulse-forming network.

The pushbuttons for the data entry and display assembly were rewired to preclude the erroneous caution and warning alarms that had occurred on the Apollo 10 flight.

The guidance and navigation optics system was modified by the addition of Teflon locking rings to the sextant and the scanning telescope to prevent the rotation of eye guards under zero-g conditions.

The deletion of unmanned control capability permitted removal of the ascent engine arming assembly.

A.2.5 Ascent Propulsion
The injector filter for the ascent propulsion system was modified because the fine mesh in the original filter was causing a change in the mixture ratio. An additional change was the incorporation of a lightweight thrust chamber.

A.2.6 Environmental Control
In the" environmental control system, a suit cooling assembly and water hose umbilicals were added to the air revitalization section to provide additional crew cooling capability. As a resist, the cabin air recirculation assembly, the cabin temperature control valve, and the regenerative heat exchanger were deleted. Also, a redundant water regulator was added to the secondary coolant loop in the water management section.

In the environmental control system relay box in the oxygen and cabin pressure control section, a pressure transducer was replaced by a suit pressure switch to improve reliability.

A.2.7 Radar
The landing radar electronics assembly was reconfigured to protect against a computer strobing pulse that was providing what appeared to be two pulses to the radar. Another modification permitted the crew to break tracker lock and to start a search for the main beam in the event the radar pulse locked onto the structure or onto a side lobe. The lunar reflectivity attenuation characteristics were updated in the radar electronics to account for the updated Surveyor data and landing radar flight tests. To permit correlation between the inertial measurement unit of the primary guidance system and the Network, a logic change permitted the lateral velocity to be an output signal of the landing radar. A further design change was made to prevent the landing radar from accepting noise spikes as a pulse in the velocity bias error signal train.

The rendezvous radar design changes included a new self-test segment to provide low temperature stability with the low-frequency and mid-frequency composite signal. In addition, heaters were added to the gyro assembly and the cable wrap to accommodate the lunar stay temperature requirements. A manual voting override switch permitted the crew to select either the primary or secondary gyro inputs.

A.2.8 Displays and Controls
Circuit breakers were added for the abort electronics assembly and the utility light. A circuit breaker was added for the abort electronics assembly to protect the dc bus, and another circuit breaker was added to accommodate the transfer of the utility light to the dc bus to provide redundant light.

The circuit breaker for the environmental control system suit and cabin repressurization function was deleted in conjunction with the modification of the suit cooling assembly. In addition, a low-level caution and warning indication on the secondary water glycol accumulator has been provided.

Changes to the caution and warning electronics assembly included the inhibiting of the landing radar temperature alarm and the prevention of a master alarm during inverter selection and master alarm switching.

Master alarm functions which were eliminated include the descent helium regulator warning prior to pressurization with the descent engine control assembly; the reaction control system thrust chamber assembly warning with quad circuit breakers open ; the rendezvous radar caution when placing the mode select switch in the auto-track position; and the deletion of the reaction control system quad temperature alarm.

Caution and warning functions which were deleted include the landing radar velocity "data no-good" and the descent propellant low-level quantity which was changed to a low-level quantity indication light only.

A further change included the added capability of being able to reset the abort electronics assembly caution and warning channel with the water quantity test switch.

A modification was made to the engine stop switch latching mechanism to insure positive latching of the switch.

A.2.9 Crew Provisions
The waste management system was changed to a one-large and five-small urine container configuration.

Additional stowage included provisions for a second Hasselblad camera, a total of two portable life support systems and remote control units, two pairs of lunar overshoes, and a feedwater collection bag.

The Commander had an attitude controller assembly lock mechanism added.

Please don't tell me they just 'lucked out', because the first time they flew it was during the actual mission!!.

Excellent response as usual, MID.



Listening to the comm traffic during the landing, it's really Charlie Duke who sounds the most nervous. Of course, he was just as well trained as Neil and Buzz, but the combination of emotions - nervousness, excitement, worry, and maybe a tiny bit of stress at some points - certainly does seem to come through in his voice.


Cz

EDITED for spelling correctitude

Please don't tell me they just 'lucked out', because the first time they flew it was during the actual mission!!.

Luck had little to do with it. The success of the Eagle (and the LM program as a whole) had so much more to do with brilliant engineering, solid research, exhaustive testing and top-notch manufacturing and program management practices.

QUOTE (UFO Seeker @ Dec 27 2007, 12:35 PM)
Got a question. Hasn't this topic gone on long enough?
and Merry Christmas & Happy New

Actually I'm finding it very interesting. Even though I decided on the answer to the original question before it started, it's quite educational. I learned the word "hypergolically" today.

Was the windows of the LEM single glazed or double glazed? and if they had double glazing what gas was used between the layers to create the double glazed effect in space?
If they was made of a single sheet of glass, how thick was it please, or was it even glass?
Thanks...

Thanks again for you comments MID...I can´t agree with you in some parts of your text,but I really apreciate your way to expose your points of views so polite and clearly.

Hey Mid,could you please watch this video and comment for me? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrAidYMBHdo
Thanks!

Hehe JarrahWhite shows a complete misunderstanding of Thermodynamics. I've just watched his Part C video where he compares the amount of fuel burned by the CSM for mid course corrections to the amount of fuel burned by the LM for the course corrections on Apollo 13. This is an entirely ignorant thing to do simply because they are different engines and they are using different propellants. I could go on, but I don't really have time.

Hat:

There is so much mis-interpretation and unknowledgable stuff thrown into that piece of video that I don't know where to start!
Seriously.

It's difficult to see a coherent point in it.

It starts with Bill Kaysing stating his belief about the idea that the astronauts weren't actually in the spacecraft at launch, and that's followed by his lawsuit against Jim Lovell, with cameos by Ralph Rene, and then into mis-interpretations of Apollo 13...and a discussion of cooling.

It seems to be part of something else which tried to project a bunch of evidence against the Apollo missions.

Now, I have said previously that Bill Kaysing was an unqualified person to speak to these issues. He made himself out to be something he was not, had no technical training whatsoever, was a writer, and served as a librarian for Rocketdyne (filing technical papers) long before the Saturn V's F-1 engines had been developed. I also firmly believe that in his later years, he was a bit touched, and that perhaps senility was creeping in. He was out to make a dollar ( a fact that his lawsuit against Captain Lovell made clear).

I have also expressed great disdain for Mr. Rene, a "self-educated engineer" by his own admission. I have, and still do, make no bones about saying that he is largely a drunken fool. These two people quite frankly are laugable in their lack. I have often felt sorry for Mr. Kaysing. I have never felt that way about Mr. Rene.

That being said, I am more than happy to address this video. However, it's 10 minutes long and has a whole lot of things in it that will take some time to explain. It's a very convoluted mess of gibberish, to be honest.

For instance, the rather lengthy discussion regarding Kaysing's lawsuit against Jim Lovell has Rene saying he was hired to handle the technical work, and a bunch of comments by him saying that Kaysing actually got a jury trial and that "it was going so well."

The case was dismissed based upon lack of merit. There was no trial. It never was heard. It was dismissed. Further, there was no "technical work" that needed to be done. Kaysing filed a libel suit against Lovell for calling him wacky. In that suit, as is indicated, Kaysing cited Lovell's comments as financially detrimental to him if a publisher refused to put his book out because a famous U.S. Astronaut called him wacky.

The problem was, his book was already published. Kaysing sent Lovell a copy of it! Lovell commented on it. Case dismissed. There was no libel involved...just stupidity on the part of the author who decided to give a copy of his nutty book to someone who actually flew to the moon and who was a bonified American hero. Lovell saying the author was nutty was no different than any other citizen saying that (and alot of people did). You cannot sue someone for exercising his or her rights to comment.

Kaysing was after money, and notoriety by singling out an American hero, that's all. His suit was deemed frivolous and the court would have no parts in it. Further, he intended to represent himself, which would've made the whole affair even more of a joke had the judge allowed the case to actually be heard.

But that's the first I'd heard of Rene being involved in it. That would've made a real case even more comical, in my opinion.


If you want to go through the rest, point-by-point, I'll be more than happy to.


Maybe you can pick out a specific part and we can go from there?

Yes Mid,I just want to hear from you about the temperature considerations in apollo 13 after the "accident".
Thanks!

Yes Mid,I just want to hear from you about the temperature considerations in apollo 13 after the "accident".
Thanks!

Oh, OK.
Temperature considerations on Apollo 13 post-explosion.

Well, you may know that the incident was an explosion of an oxygen tank inside the SM. That explosion damaged the other oxygen tank as well, and it didn't take a long time before the oxygen in the SM was depleted. Oxygen was blood...it powered everything.

It supplied something to breathe, which was of course a big problem. It supplied cabin pressure, which was also critical, it supplied the fuel cells, which produced electrical power and water, which was used for drinking and cooling of certain equipment. Basically, without the oxygen supply, the CSM dies, and so does anyone in it.

The fact is, Hat, cabin heating was provided by electrical equipment running in the CSM and LM for the most part. When the CM had to be powered down to conserve battery power for entry, the heating component basically disappeared, and the spacecraft got pretty damned cold.

The crew retreated to the LM because that was the procedure for a powered down CM...you had to go where there was some power , some heating, and some guidance and navigation and control and ECS capability (oxygen, cooling, water, electrical power (heat), etc...). The LM lifeboat procedures were in place for such an occurance.

To be honest, the cabin heating issue was the least of the problems we had on Apollo 13. That was the lowest priority on the list of things that had to be saved in order to get the crew home.

The fact is, it got cold because we had little electrical equipment running (none at all in the CM).

It's actually pretty simple. Have all that stuff running inside the sealed CM, it gets warm. We actually removed excess heat. Have it all off (which was only ever done on Apollo 13), and there's no heat...so it gets cold.

Ok Mid,I apreciate...But listen to the considerations about the temperature on this video - you too Frenat - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrAidYMBHdo

What about them? What do you think the temperature should have been and why?

I was wondering if Apollo 13 lost airconditioning and it was mentioned that it was always in the sun, why didn't they cook? as was mentioned, it was said that the temp would have reached 250 F. Why would it be cold? just wondering.

The temp might only get that high if all the sunlight was being absorbed. The craft was reflective and insulated though so little of it was absorbed. The air conditioning actually removed excess heat from all the running electronics. The sun was not a problem. With no electronics running there was no heat.

The temp might only get that high if all the sunlight was being absorbed. The craft was reflective and insulated though so little of it was absorbed. The air conditioning actually removed excess heat from all the running electronics. The sun was not a problem. With no electronics running there was no heat.