Full Version: Did Saddam Have WMD?
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > News, Media & World Events > Conspiracies & Secret Societies
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Nxt2Hvn. I only feel old in the morning and evening and most of the afternoon 
I met Nixon when I was in High school and was very impressed with his ideas. I was sorry to see him fall in disgrace. But it also taught me a very good lesson. And this is a quote from Nixon himself. "Don't be afraid to question your Government, remember they work for you." I don't like to have blind trust in any organization that keeps the public away from the process 
I met Nixon when I was in High school and was very impressed with his ideas. I was sorry to see him fall in disgrace. But it also taught me a very good lesson. And this is a quote from Nixon himself. "Don't be afraid to question your Government, remember they work for you." I don't like to have blind trust in any organization that keeps the public away from the process
| QUOTE |
| I only feel old in the morning and evening and most of the afternoon |
Me Too!! LOL
Cool that you got to meet Nixon!
heh Vietnam, look at Vietnam now to see what the hippies are responisble for.
| QUOTE (mowo @ Feb 5 2004, 03:27 AM) |
| I think it is possible to generalise to a certain degree. Especially when dealing with the impartiality of the British press compared to the largely dumbed down censored super patriotism of the American press. I have witnessed quite a lot of US news broadcasting, and have to admit, if I was exposed to this kind of nationalist propaganda morning, noon and night, I would probably also be sharing the views of others on this forum. |
So Our news is now Propaganda....gee lets make a personal attack on an entire nation here...Oh And now I see what happened to me, Since I was fed propaganda all my life I am obviously brainwashed and can't think for myself. Hmmm...then I wonder if it is me or evil ol' George W. doing it......
no no, the British News isn't propoganda because its telling them what they want to hear:P
the arguement runs both ways
the arguement runs both ways
| QUOTE (stillcrazy @ Feb 5 2004, 12:03 PM) |
| I have come to realize that trying to discuss any issue that questions Bush or his administration, with joc, is like trying to catch a pig in the mud. |
| QUOTE (bathory @ Feb 5 2004, 02:30 PM) |
| heh Vietnam, look at Vietnam now to see what the hippies are responisble for. |
I don't think the hippies were directly responsible for the failure in Viet Nam, through the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, Congress refused to allow the military to run a war. Viet Nam was run by politicians in D.C.
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| [QUOTE]QUOTE No one ever said the threat was imminate! [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Sorry Joc, but Blair was quoted as saying they could be delivered in 45 minutes.[/QUOTE] |
I was actually talking about the Bush administration. But if Blair said that I give him the benefit of the doubt. UK is a lot closer to the Middle East than is the US.
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| How many innocent civilians died as as esult of our "illegal" war? |
Not near as many as died on September 11th 2001.
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| I have read as many of joc's post has was possible and one that stuck out was the one were he mentions. "Bush ate jelly made at his house" Loyalty is a great thing. and I commend him for it. However most of his post are very short and curt answers or comments, most with the air that he is right, and everyone else's opinion is wrong. No room nor desire for discussion. |
I am not a loyal Bush follower because he ate my wife’s jelly. I am a loyal Bush supporter because I believe the man is just and honest. Most of my posts are short and to the point because I don’t need to BS for half an hour to say what I mean. I consider ‘with the air that he is right’ to be a compliment. I do believe I am right. Not everyone else’s opinions are wrong. Some agree with me and therefore they are right as well.
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I don’t think Bathory was implying anything of the sort. When one looks back at Vietnam, one can trace a multitude of problems that we face today to the irresponsible actions of The Hippies.
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| I have come to realize that trying to discuss any issue that questions Bush or his administration, with joc, is like trying to catch a pig in the mud. |
Oink! Oink!
By the way ….I was born July 9th, 1957. I am neither young nor inexperienced and there is practically nothing which I cannot do! Just so you know.
I am a 57 Chevy and I don't feel old at all.
[QUOTE]
Kismit, if this is directed at me, I was simply trying to inject a little light relief into a topic that was descending into a mire of abuse.
[/QUOTE]Nope not directed at anyone in particular Stamford , just a gentle reminder .
[QUOTE (mowo @ Feb 5 2004, 03:27 AM)]
I think it is possible to generalise to a certain degree. Especially when dealing with the impartiality of the British press compared to the largely dumbed down censored super patriotism of the American press.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]So Our news is now Propaganda....gee lets make a personal attack on an entire nation here...[/QUOTE]
Kismit, if this is directed at me, I was simply trying to inject a little light relief into a topic that was descending into a mire of abuse.
[/QUOTE]Nope not directed at anyone in particular Stamford , just a gentle reminder .
[QUOTE (mowo @ Feb 5 2004, 03:27 AM)]
I think it is possible to generalise to a certain degree. Especially when dealing with the impartiality of the British press compared to the largely dumbed down censored super patriotism of the American press.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]So Our news is now Propaganda....gee lets make a personal attack on an entire nation here...[/QUOTE]
Kis if your going to Quote me Then quote the whole statement. Taking just part of it blows the context of what I was saying. Of course I can't be believed since I'm an American so what the hell is the point in even trying?
Wich leads me to my next point, Yes I do get upset whe I see threads lie this and yes I do lash out at them, Why?
Cause I am sick and Godsdamn tired of this crap!
So what we invaded Iraq. Who cares? So it may have been over Faulty intellegence but as many of us has tried to show the belief that Saddam had WMD's and could be a threat cross many party lines and it wasn't just Bush gunning for him. Bush just had the Bang-Bangs to do it!!! Yes , I said it Bush has something the UN, Clinton admin, and half the world who shook in terror of Saddam, did not have...A set!!!
I applaude Mr. Blair for his support in this and for his sticking out the reprocussions of this that an overly liberal media has turned into nothing more than a witch hunt.
Bush has tore down 8 years of PCBS put forth by a pres that was more concerned with what the top of his secrataries head looked like than running the country.
I also have heard Mr. Blair was cleared of most wrong doing in the Iraq war. But yet no one wants to show these two any form of respect. Well I will I applaude them for finally standing up and flexing some muscle. And yes I feel we were jsutified, yes I feel we were right. And I alwyas will.
We fixed a twelve year old blunder that the UN let happen. Thank God!!! So please all you arm chair politicians sit down and give your leaders some respect...aww hell why don't I say what I feel.....SHUT UP!!!!
Wich leads me to my next point, Yes I do get upset whe I see threads lie this and yes I do lash out at them, Why?
Cause I am sick and Godsdamn tired of this crap!
So what we invaded Iraq. Who cares? So it may have been over Faulty intellegence but as many of us has tried to show the belief that Saddam had WMD's and could be a threat cross many party lines and it wasn't just Bush gunning for him. Bush just had the Bang-Bangs to do it!!! Yes , I said it Bush has something the UN, Clinton admin, and half the world who shook in terror of Saddam, did not have...A set!!!
I applaude Mr. Blair for his support in this and for his sticking out the reprocussions of this that an overly liberal media has turned into nothing more than a witch hunt.
Bush has tore down 8 years of PCBS put forth by a pres that was more concerned with what the top of his secrataries head looked like than running the country.
I also have heard Mr. Blair was cleared of most wrong doing in the Iraq war. But yet no one wants to show these two any form of respect. Well I will I applaude them for finally standing up and flexing some muscle. And yes I feel we were jsutified, yes I feel we were right. And I alwyas will.
We fixed a twelve year old blunder that the UN let happen. Thank God!!! So please all you arm chair politicians sit down and give your leaders some respect...aww hell why don't I say what I feel.....SHUT UP!!!!
Oh yeah and one last thing Until I can see some form of respect for this nation I will be leaving this messageboard thats right I'm F*cking outta here!!! I can't talk with people who see me as a brainwashed warmongering whatever the hell else you wanna call me....
Alot of you I considered friends but the insults that you have thrown at my country are insults that cut me deeply...you hate my nation so bad then you must hate me just as bad....
I have friggin had it with this horseshit......
Alot of you I considered friends but the insults that you have thrown at my country are insults that cut me deeply...you hate my nation so bad then you must hate me just as bad....
I have friggin had it with this horseshit......
| QUOTE (joc @ Feb 5 2004, 08:00 PM) | ||
Not near as many as died on September 11th 2001. |
Once again you have shown yourself to be totally wrong.
I have to say, your 1957 birthdate surprised me. From your first post I guessed you to me no more than 18-20. Not much of what you posted made me think different. hmmm...interesting.
Not counting military deaths, the Iraqi death toll is currently between 8100 and 10,000 innocent deaths depending on who you ask. nearly 3 times as many that died 9/11.
I can provide link, but with you it wouldn't matter much as you think they aren't required to get a point across. You can look it up yourself if you care.
But I guess since they were Iraqi deaths, that may not mean much to you, I guess you'll just "Let god to sort them out"
| QUOTE (thepsychoticseaotter @ Feb 5 2004, 09:28 PM) |
| I have friggin had it with this horseshit...... |
Deep breath...go to your happy place....
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| Oh yeah and one last thing Until I can see some form of respect for this nation I will be leaving thats right I'm F*cking outta here!!! |
Thats it-DEMAND RESPECT! that will work...
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| Alot of you I considered friends but the insults that you have thrown at my country are insults that cut me deeply...you hate my nation so bad then you must hate me just as bad.... |
I guess you aren't able to seperate the fact that people may disagree with the actions of the government and still respect the country. No one here has said that they disliked you(well I bashed you a couple of times, but I never said I hated you), just what the government had done over Iraq. People are allowed to converse and exchange differences. You have gotten so worked up that you have blown things out of perspective.
| QUOTE (fluffybunny @ Feb 5 2004, 11:39 PM) |
| [I guess you aren't able to seperate the fact that people may disagree with the actions of the government and still respect the country. No one here has said that they disliked you(well I bashed you a couple of times, but I never said I hated you), just what the government had done over Iraq. People are allowed to converse and exchange differences. You have gotten so worked up that you have blown things out of perspective. |
Perspective? How's this for perspective....Even before the war and the outbreak of supposedly illegal war activities there were threads just like this popping up. And yes they were insulting as hell....If you dig around you'll find several us vs them threads that broke into an all out nuclear flame war....
Yes it is a little sickening, that half the people complaining live in countires that have benifited from US money...my money.
And before your tell me to stay off threads like this let me tell you, people should have enough respect for the US members of this board to keep crap like this at bay.....
I don't get on and slam a country that can make pudding or pie out of anything do I? Nor do I get on and tell the Brits that are throwing a fit over the war that they are suffering from empire envy... Or that they are still upset that the US whipped their ass over 200 years ago....Or do I tell the NZer's they wouldn't even be signifigant if it wasn't for Lord of The Rings...no cause i have enough respect for them not too
but no, we get to look at page after page of slam on the US By what ever person wants to make it...hell by the same people I considered friends....So what would you think when your nation is being tore down page after page and post after post by people you have been joking with on other threads?
I really don't want to leave and maybe why I am posting again after I said I wouldn't is that I am looking for some reason to stay. But under these conditions I can't. And yes it was blown out of proportion but it was long before you came in..This is just the climax for me....
| QUOTE (thepsychoticseaotter @ Feb 5 2004, 09:51 PM) |
| So what would you think when your nation is being tore down page after page and post after post by people you have been joking with on other threads? |
I can see what you ar saying.
I think I look at this differently that you do. I see people from different countries posting their opinions on the Iraq issue. They have that right to, even though they are from different countries I think that they have the right to give their opinion. I may like it, or I may not.
The freedom of speech is important. It does cut both ways, and can very often really hurt, but that is the power that we have the right to. Through that freedom of speech we can learn what others think(like it or not), and to tell others what we think.
People can disagree and still have a line of communication open. If you choose to leave everyplace and everyone that has a different opinion that you do, you are going to be mighty lonely. You can choose to listen to what people say, and in what context they say it, and take it for what it is worth. They may have a valid point, or they may be blowing hot air. It is best to at least think about it and maybe learn from the situation.
In the end does it really make a difference if someone in another country(or your own) has a different opinion than you do? Is a difference in opinion enough to sever ties with people? Differences in people is what this country thrives on. Democracy works well with a community that comes together to decide what will be best for a given situation.
People are allowed to be different. They are allowed to express a difference in opinion.
It's not the disagreements it's tha damn insults. And I have seen many thrown at me on these boards just because I am American.
It's like this I was on a thread with another member where we were joking around. Then we hit a thread like this. Now, when the member in question found I supported the war in Iraq and Afganastan I was called everything but a adirty white boy...
Looking over this thread there have been digs like crazy at us. some form people I thought repected me...That was I guess until they read that I was from the US....
Not once have I ever insulted their country, Nor did I hate them Cause they were from it. Yes you and I butted heads but we seem to be doing better....However, The insults thrown at the other US members have been horrifying
For example:
It's like this I was on a thread with another member where we were joking around. Then we hit a thread like this. Now, when the member in question found I supported the war in Iraq and Afganastan I was called everything but a adirty white boy...
Looking over this thread there have been digs like crazy at us. some form people I thought repected me...That was I guess until they read that I was from the US....
Not once have I ever insulted their country, Nor did I hate them Cause they were from it. Yes you and I butted heads but we seem to be doing better....However, The insults thrown at the other US members have been horrifying
For example:
| QUOTE |
| I think it is possible to generalise to a certain degree. Especially when dealing with the impartiality of the British press compared to the largely dumbed down censored super patriotism of the American press. I have witnessed quite a lot of US news broadcasting, and have to admit, if I was exposed to this kind of nationalist propaganda morning, noon and night, I would probably also be sharing the views of others on this forum. |
Nooo as I pointed out that's not an attack on the whole of the populace but how would we know since we're so damn brainwashed by our nationalist Propoganda....
Joc even posted quotes Prooving that the whole of the US republican and dem saw Saddam as a threat prooving that the Liberals were for a war. and he got a whatever and more insults...
Geez this is tiring....How many times do I have to say that it's this kind of crap that sets me off and it's also what gets these threads shut down...
Hell, anymore it's all like, we'll have fun 'til someone says he's an american than we'll tear his warmongering ass down.....
*sigh* there's really no point anyway...I'm stereotyped anyway I might as well shut up no matter what I say that's all I'll be here since no one wants to see any different.....
| QUOTE (thepsychoticseaotter @ Feb 6 2004, 04:13 PM) |
| Kis if your going to Quote me Then quote the whole statement. Taking just part of it blows the context of what I was saying. Of course I can't be believed since I'm an American so what the hell is the point in even trying? Wich leads me to my next point, Yes I do get upset whe I see threads lie this and yes I do lash out at them, Why? Cause I am sick and Godsdamn tired of this crap! So what we invaded Iraq. Who cares? So it may have been over Faulty intellegence but as many of us has tried to show the belief that Saddam had WMD's and could be a threat cross many party lines and it wasn't just Bush gunning for him. Bush just had the Bang-Bangs to do it!!! Yes , I said it Bush has something the UN, Clinton admin, and half the world who shook in terror of Saddam, did not have...A set!!! I applaude Mr. Blair for his support in this and for his sticking out the reprocussions of this that an overly liberal media has turned into nothing more than a witch hunt. Bush has tore down 8 years of PCBS put forth by a pres that was more concerned with what the top of his secrataries head looked like than running the country. I also have heard Mr. Blair was cleared of most wrong doing in the Iraq war. But yet no one wants to show these two any form of respect. Well I will I applaude them for finally standing up and flexing some muscle. And yes I feel we were jsutified, yes I feel we were right. And I alwyas will. We fixed a twelve year old blunder that the UN let happen. Thank God!!! So please all you arm chair politicians sit down and give your leaders some respect...aww hell why don't I say what I feel.....SHUT UP!!!! |
Syko I'm not trying to get at you I was mearly using your post to prove a point . I don't argue the war anymore I find it pointless . Argued the bejeezers out of it before the war started though, if you want to go and check out the old threads, but really it's a bit of a dead horse . Sorry if you took it personnally .
[QUOTE]Nooo as I pointed out that's not an attack on the whole of the populace but how would we know since we're so damn brainwashed by our nationalist Propoganda.... [/QUOTE]
I notice you make no attempt to discredit my statement, you only repeat it twice in a sarcastic manner. thats a great debating technique.
[QUOTE]I don't get on and slam a country that can make pudding or pie out of anything do I? Nor do I get on and tell the Brits that are throwing a fit over the war that they are suffering from empire envy... Or that they are still upset that the US whipped their ass over 200 years ago[/QUOTE]
Not only historically accurate, but this certainly sums up my political standpoint.
[QUOTE]Looking over this thread there have been digs like crazy at us. some form people I thought repected me...That was I guess until they read that I was from the US....
Not once have I ever insulted their country, Nor did I hate them Cause they were from it. Yes you and I butted heads but we seem to be doing better....However, The insults thrown at the other US members have been horrifying
[/QUOTE]
you should start accusing everyone of being 'anti American' or 'freedom haters', that should help get your point across.
[QUOTE]So what we invaded Iraq. Who cares?[/QUOTE]
Quite right, and so what Hitler invaded Poland? What use were Poland anyway?
[/QUOTE]So please all you arm chair politicians sit down and give your leaders some respect...aww hell why don't I say what I feel.....SHUT UP[/QUOTE]
My sentiments exactly. Go to bed everyone, your totalitarian governments are in control.
thepsychoticseaotter, I am not attacking you or America. I am stating my opinions on the war in Iraq.
In my opinion both the British and American goverments are equally at fault.
I notice you make no attempt to discredit my statement, you only repeat it twice in a sarcastic manner. thats a great debating technique.
[QUOTE]I don't get on and slam a country that can make pudding or pie out of anything do I? Nor do I get on and tell the Brits that are throwing a fit over the war that they are suffering from empire envy... Or that they are still upset that the US whipped their ass over 200 years ago[/QUOTE]
Not only historically accurate, but this certainly sums up my political standpoint.
[QUOTE]Looking over this thread there have been digs like crazy at us. some form people I thought repected me...That was I guess until they read that I was from the US....
Not once have I ever insulted their country, Nor did I hate them Cause they were from it. Yes you and I butted heads but we seem to be doing better....However, The insults thrown at the other US members have been horrifying
[/QUOTE]
you should start accusing everyone of being 'anti American' or 'freedom haters', that should help get your point across.
[QUOTE]So what we invaded Iraq. Who cares?[/QUOTE]
Quite right, and so what Hitler invaded Poland? What use were Poland anyway?
[/QUOTE]So please all you arm chair politicians sit down and give your leaders some respect...aww hell why don't I say what I feel.....SHUT UP[/QUOTE]
My sentiments exactly. Go to bed everyone, your totalitarian governments are in control.
thepsychoticseaotter, I am not attacking you or America. I am stating my opinions on the war in Iraq.
In my opinion both the British and American goverments are equally at fault.
I think what some of our American friends are overlooking is that the Brit's who are posting here are not only attacking the US Government (please note "Government" not the Country or it's wonderful people) but also attacking our OWN Government!!!
We are not bashing the US (ok so we may make the odd joke, but that's what we Brits do - A SENSE OF HUMOUR IS A WONDERFUL THING!!).
The thing that saddens me most and I think this maybe why we are so worked up on this subject is that one of the things the US prides itself on is freedom of speech. This seems to have gone post 911; if you don't support the Government then you are a traitor or unpatriotic. Since when did questioning the rights and wrongs of war become either?
To thepsychoticseaotter I would say this: Please don't think we hate the US, we don't.
I live in a country that whent to war with yours, I therefore have every right to question it as my countrymen also died there and MY country is also responsible for the death and suffering this war has caused, death and suffering that is unfortunate but unavoidable in a just war, but wrong and unjustafiable in an illegal one.
However, your comments along the line of "so Iraq was invaded? So what?" are Indefensible .
We are not bashing the US (ok so we may make the odd joke, but that's what we Brits do - A SENSE OF HUMOUR IS A WONDERFUL THING!!).
The thing that saddens me most and I think this maybe why we are so worked up on this subject is that one of the things the US prides itself on is freedom of speech. This seems to have gone post 911; if you don't support the Government then you are a traitor or unpatriotic. Since when did questioning the rights and wrongs of war become either?
To thepsychoticseaotter I would say this: Please don't think we hate the US, we don't.
I live in a country that whent to war with yours, I therefore have every right to question it as my countrymen also died there and MY country is also responsible for the death and suffering this war has caused, death and suffering that is unfortunate but unavoidable in a just war, but wrong and unjustafiable in an illegal one.
However, your comments along the line of "so Iraq was invaded? So what?" are Indefensible .
| QUOTE |
| I do believe I am right. Not everyone else’s opinions are wrong. Some agree with me and therefore they are right as well. |
You can't have a discussion with some one who is never wrong.
| QUOTE |
| Not counting military deaths, the Iraqi death toll is currently between 8100 and 10,000 innocent deaths depending on who you ask. nearly 3 times as many that died 9/11. I can provide link, but with you it wouldn't matter much as you think they aren't required to get a point across. You can look it up yourself if you care. |
Good Lord Fluffy! Please don't tell me you are getting your information and
therefore quantifing your opinion based on 'iraqibodycount.net'!
| QUOTE |
| ....depending on who you ask. |
Nice!
| QUOTE (joc @ Feb 6 2004, 05:53 AM) |
| Good Lord Fluffy! Please don't tell me you are getting your information and therefore quantifing your opinion based on 'iraqibodycount.net'! |
There are several sites that I found that list iraqi civilian deaths, none of which seem to have a number below 8000.
That is 8000 dead innocent civilians. over 500 dead US soldiers.
By your glib response I take that I was correct in guessing that innocent iraqi deaths mean nothing to you. With as gung-ho as you are for the war, I'd of thought you would be up on such statistics. Not only do you not know the toll of death in the war you support, you don't even seem to care.
| QUOTE |
| Not only do you not know the toll of death in the war you support, you don't even seem to care. |
You are correct sir!
I don't care what the death toll is. The purpose ofwar is to destroy our enemies. Wars are not won because the death toll
rises to a particular level. Wars are won when the enemy either surrenders
or is destroyed. Our enemies will not ever surrender, they therefore must be destroyed.
I know this is hard for you to believe, but innocent civilian death is an
unfortunate part of every war.
| QUOTE (joc @ Feb 6 2004, 09:50 AM) |
| I know this is hard for you to believe, but innocent civilian death is an unfortunate part of every war. |
Hard for me to believe? That is rich coming from you.
What war did you fight in?
How many dead and dying woman and children did you treat?
I treated hundreds in the first war with Iraq and that didn't have nearly the death toll as we are coming up to here.
But it apparently doesn't matter to you how many innocent people die, just as long as they are from another country...or should I say race? hmmm....
| QUOTE |
| What war did you fight in? How many dead and dying woman and children did you treat? |
I was a hospital corpsman in the US/Iran war.........wait........oh, yeah
I forgot...I would have been in the US/Iran war except there
wasn't one because the Iranians were scared to death of President
Reagan.
I have worked in several different ERs and have treated my fair share
of seriously injured (no thankfully not in war) and have seen many
dead.
I am not going to fight with you Fluffybunny. You have an agenda and so
do I. My agenda is to protect America at any cost. What is yours?
| QUOTE |
| My agenda is to protect America at any cost. |
My question is What are you willing to give up? Your freedom to be safe, your privacy for security? Your freedom for an idea that cannot and will not make you safe. America will always face threats from the outside (9/11) and the inside 4/19
Give up your constitional rights for a false sense of safety and let the Government control what you hear, see, say and go.
When do you say the cost is to great?
| QUOTE (joc @ Feb 6 2004, 01:41 PM) |
| I am not going to fight with you Fluffybunny. You have an agenda and so do I. My agenda is to protect America at any cost. What is yours? |
For right now my agenda is to counter your "kill them all, and let god sort them out" mentality on this board.
Generally it is to get people to think for themselves.
| QUOTE |
| Generally it is to get people to think for themselves. |
...and so the definition of 'think for themselves' is to agree with you.
| QUOTE (joc @ Feb 6 2004, 02:31 PM) |
| ...and so the definition of 'think for themselves' is to agree with you. |
No not at all. People often come up with different answers than I do that are respectable, well thought out answers. We live in a democracy, and that takes input from everyone to work correctly.
I have been wrong and not seen that until I evaluate my stance on an issue against other well thought out ideas that others put forth. On this issue I have done a great deal of research. I take it seriousely
I do however like to emphasize the "think" in the think for themselves. When it comes to killing innocent civilians, I would hope that people would give a bit more thought to the subject than they do what to have for lunch. Sometimes that doesn't seem to be the case, but I could be wrong...
| QUOTE |
| I do however like to emphasize the "think" in the think for themselves. When it comes to killing innocent civilians, I would hope that people would give a bit more thought to the subject than they do what to have for lunch. Sometimes that doesn't seem to be the case, but I could be wrong... |
Very well...you believe killing civilians in Iraq was wrong because
we shouldn't have attacked them in the first place. My opinion differs.
This is just one instance (of many most likely) in which we will just
have to 'agree to disagree'.
I wish you well.
*won't it be interesting to get the Iraqi perspective on all of this......in a few years there will no doubt be many on this forum who are living in Bagdad.*
| QUOTE |
| Very well...you believe killing civilians in Iraq was wrong because we shouldn't have attacked them in the first place. |
This is the problem joc; killing civilians is ALWAYS wrong!!
Ok, granted civilian casualties are unavoidable in war - we just need to be damn sure that war is our only option.
Can you honestly, hand on heart, state that you think this war in Iraq was unavoidable?
Are you and I now safer?
By the looks of things your Prez and my PM are now admiting that the inteligence was flawed (shame it's a year too late), so what was the justification? The fact that Saddam was an evil tyrant? No argument there, he was.
But get in line Saddam, there are evil tyrants all over the world.
So Saddam killed thousands of his own people? I agree that this is terrible, but the same thing is happening in North Korea!! And no one is suggesting that we attack them.
The fact was that a few years ago he was still an evil tyrant and yet your country and mine not only supported him, but sold him weapons, even when he gassed his own people!!
So please tell me why we should have gone to war!!!
National security? No links with Osama have been found and no WMD's, let alone the ability to deliver them to either your country or mine.
SO WHY?
Chew on this:
The US ploitical society has gotten extremely ploarized as of late. Bus had mojor opposition even getting into the Whithouse since Gore didn't want to believe he lost the election.
This has made the gulf wider. Now Bush looks into the Iraq situation and begins to get concerned as he wants to prvent another 9/11. So he gets intellegence but in the offices there are still people with political agendas. At that level it could be exceptionally easy to fix certian pieces of info to say one thing then keep other documents that say another.
Since 90% of classified intellgence is usually detroyed after viewing there is no record of this being done. The war ends major conflict and now this supposed evidence surfaces that Bush 'lied'.
Notice that at the same time quotes and other evidence shows that there were Democrat and Liberal quotes saying Saddam needed delt with. Yes they could have been falseified but even Snopes.com has, at my last look there, verified the quotes authenticity.
What we may be seeing is a new step taken in the polarisation of American politics. One that may become very dangerous. Both sides claim the truth. Both sides have been known to ignore the truth, who do you believe?
And might I add that this amount of polarisation has not exsisted in this country since around the 1860's....what happened during that time?
The US ploitical society has gotten extremely ploarized as of late. Bus had mojor opposition even getting into the Whithouse since Gore didn't want to believe he lost the election.
This has made the gulf wider. Now Bush looks into the Iraq situation and begins to get concerned as he wants to prvent another 9/11. So he gets intellegence but in the offices there are still people with political agendas. At that level it could be exceptionally easy to fix certian pieces of info to say one thing then keep other documents that say another.
Since 90% of classified intellgence is usually detroyed after viewing there is no record of this being done. The war ends major conflict and now this supposed evidence surfaces that Bush 'lied'.
Notice that at the same time quotes and other evidence shows that there were Democrat and Liberal quotes saying Saddam needed delt with. Yes they could have been falseified but even Snopes.com has, at my last look there, verified the quotes authenticity.
What we may be seeing is a new step taken in the polarisation of American politics. One that may become very dangerous. Both sides claim the truth. Both sides have been known to ignore the truth, who do you believe?
And might I add that this amount of polarisation has not exsisted in this country since around the 1860's....what happened during that time?
| QUOTE |
| Now Bush looks into the Iraq situation and begins to get concerned as he wants to prvent another 9/11. |
It has been proven that the first topic at the first cabinet meeting after Bush came to office was about getting rid of Saddam - This was a hell of a long time BEFORE 911!!
Do you not think that this war has united the Arab world against us?
Do you not think that Osama Bin Laden rubbed his hands together in glee when he saw what we were doing?
I am sure many Arabs were as horrified by 911 as you and I were, but how much sympathy do you think we now have following this war?
Dear Joc,
I hope you the comments that you have made regarding civilians death toll in war, is coming from a place of anger for people you believe are unpatriotic, because what you are saying in unethical, scary and what everyone hates about Americans. That we will go to no ends to win.
I would also like to ask you this question, who do you, think the Iraqi people are going to blame when this is over? Not Saddam! They are going to blame us. I know this hard for you to believe but a lot people liked Saddam. And a lot people Saddam kept “down” are now loose. I am going to say something that might come across very racist, but trust I know these people they don’t deserve the blood of the men and woman that protect our country, nor do they know the value of freedom and knowledge. They do not like change, why do you think some of them to this day don’t have a proper education or a healthy lifestyle. Not because they aren’t smart, and surly not because they don’t how to have fun. Because the wrapped sense religion that has been forced fed to them for centuries. No matter what we do, in the end we will be the “evil , godless American’s”, who’s unwed daughter gets pregnant at 13, who’ s the children do drugs, and I could go on and on.
Did have he WMDs? Maybe! Was he dangerous, probably! However, I assure that their much, much more dangerous people out there then Saddam.
Our focus should have been place their not on a “quick fix”, like we were led to believe. For every terrorist we kill and every terrorist country we demolish, thousand more will rise. It will only proof to them that their “Jihad’s” are justified. No one is saying we should protect our country and our freedom. Terrorisms is not a new, it’s just new to us in the US, it’s has been going for a long along time, and I’m sure you are aware of this. Instead of taking over governments, we should try to find out why they exist in such large numbers, and then take action.
I hope you the comments that you have made regarding civilians death toll in war, is coming from a place of anger for people you believe are unpatriotic, because what you are saying in unethical, scary and what everyone hates about Americans. That we will go to no ends to win.
I would also like to ask you this question, who do you, think the Iraqi people are going to blame when this is over? Not Saddam! They are going to blame us. I know this hard for you to believe but a lot people liked Saddam. And a lot people Saddam kept “down” are now loose. I am going to say something that might come across very racist, but trust I know these people they don’t deserve the blood of the men and woman that protect our country, nor do they know the value of freedom and knowledge. They do not like change, why do you think some of them to this day don’t have a proper education or a healthy lifestyle. Not because they aren’t smart, and surly not because they don’t how to have fun. Because the wrapped sense religion that has been forced fed to them for centuries. No matter what we do, in the end we will be the “evil , godless American’s”, who’s unwed daughter gets pregnant at 13, who’ s the children do drugs, and I could go on and on.
Did have he WMDs? Maybe! Was he dangerous, probably! However, I assure that their much, much more dangerous people out there then Saddam.
Our focus should have been place their not on a “quick fix”, like we were led to believe. For every terrorist we kill and every terrorist country we demolish, thousand more will rise. It will only proof to them that their “Jihad’s” are justified. No one is saying we should protect our country and our freedom. Terrorisms is not a new, it’s just new to us in the US, it’s has been going for a long along time, and I’m sure you are aware of this. Instead of taking over governments, we should try to find out why they exist in such large numbers, and then take action.
| QUOTE (thepsychoticseaotter @ Feb 6 2004, 03:55 PM) |
| Notice that at the same time quotes and other evidence shows that there were Democrat and Liberal quotes saying Saddam needed delt with. Yes they could have been falseified but even Snopes.com has, at my last look there, verified the quotes authenticity. |
I see what you are saying, this is definately an extreme time in political history.
Saddam did need to be dealt with, and he was, although not as quickly as the US wanted. I never said that Saddam didn't need to be dealt with. I don' think anyone here did either. I think that it comes down to how you define "dealt with".
The democratic support you speak of is based on what Bush told the world about WMD and terrorists links(same goes for support of the current allies). When no WMD or terrorist links were found, it created a great deal of animosity and an uber backlash...Same goes for all of the supporting countries that feel as if the have been duped...
| QUOTE |
| They do not like change, why do you think some of them to this day don’t have a proper education or a healthy lifestyle. Not because they aren’t smart, and surly not because they don’t how to have fun. Because the wrapped sense religion that has been forced fed to them for centuries. |
I am sorry shirini, but this is not only inaccurate but I will be suprised if the Mods allow this!!
I am sure you meant "warped" instead of "wrapped" and you just can't say this about Islam. Islam is a peaceful religion that deplores violence, but as in every other religion you have people who are only too quick to turn to violence
But if you generalise a whole religion in this way you will have this thread shut down quick than you can say "religious intollerence".
Well stated FB.
| QUOTE (Stamford @ Feb 6 2004, 06:05 PM) | ||
It has been proven that the first topic at the first cabinet meeting after Bush came to office was about getting rid of Saddam - This was a hell of a long time BEFORE 911!! Do you not think that this war has united the Arab world against us? Do you not think that Osama Bin Laden rubbed his hands together in glee when he saw what we were doing? I am sure many Arabs were as horrified by 911 as you and I were, but how much sympathy do you think we now have following this war? |
It has also been prooven that the meetings were the continuation of efforts that were also in place during the clinton Administration. Does that mean we can aslo blame Billy for this as well?
If there was a conspiricy it obviously stretches back before GW came into power.
ANd yes it has united the Arab world against us...Just like it was supposed to.
The players in this little drama are not the public figures we are bashing.
| QUOTE |
| I see what you are saying, this is definately an extreme time in political history. |
Exactly one that I believe has been designed prior to even Goerge senior.
Sam,
Thanking you catching my mistake on the warped thing.
I was born in the Middle East and while the TV shows’ you educated unemployment and oppressed people. I’m talking about the poor and the extremely religious.
I know Islam is peaceful religious, after my mother is Moslem. I am very well aware of its teaching. These people have been dragging its name and message thru mud. So please spare me the lecture. .
I
Thanking you catching my mistake on the warped thing.
I was born in the Middle East and while the TV shows’ you educated unemployment and oppressed people. I’m talking about the poor and the extremely religious.
I know Islam is peaceful religious, after my mother is Moslem. I am very well aware of its teaching. These people have been dragging its name and message thru mud. So please spare me the lecture. .
I
| QUOTE |
| These people have been dragging its name and message thru mud. So please spare me the lecture. . |
No lecture intended. I just think you are wrong.
| QUOTE |
ANd yes it has united the Arab world against us...Just like it was supposed to. The players in this little drama are not the public figures we are bashing. |
This is interesting, what's the hidden agenda?
| QUOTE (thepsychoticseaotter @ Feb 6 2004, 04:35 PM) |
| ANd yes it has united the Arab world against us...Just like it was supposed to. |
Can you expand on that a bit? I am not sure I catch your meaning...
| QUOTE |
| This is interesting, what's the hidden agenda? |
Stamford this is an interesting Question.
It depends on what theory you want to subscribe to.
Some think the Tri-Lat and Illuminatie are trying to take over the country. Bush being their current figure head.
Second. That Bush wants total government control of the nation/people and is taking the U.K. along to share the blame in case it goes sour.
Third. Aliens are behind everything so that when they do make contact they will get less press than Janet Jackson
Fourth. That our inteligence agencies are so incompetent that Bush and Blair along with everyone else really believed saddam did have wmd's that he could use at any moment.
| QUOTE |
| But get in line Saddam, there are evil tyrants all over the world |
whats your point? thats like saying 'There are so many places we could start, we better not start at all'. As i see it, Iraq was seen as a threat, Saddam has a history of agression towards the US moreso than that crazy commie in North Korea, North Korea HAS nuclear weapons and WILL happily use them on its neighbours at the slightest hint of agression.
| QUOTE |
| It has been proven that the first topic at the first cabinet meeting after Bush came to office was about getting rid of Saddam - This was a hell of a long time BEFORE 911!! |
ahem, those are called CONTINGENCY PLANS! you know, in case of a what-if scenario, hell, these plans were pretty much inherited from the Clinton Administration (Those oil hungry tyrants!), Saddam has been on the US hitlist for years, Bush is the only one to get off his ass and do something.
politician of the early 90's : "Beat up Saddam, he's a threat"
politician of the late 90's: "Beat up saddam, he's a bigger threat"
Bush beats Saddam up
politician: "OMG WHY'D YOU DO THAT YOU BAD PRESIDENT YOU!"
| QUOTE |
| This is interesting, what's the hidden agenda? |
perhaps they are tyring to sort out who their enemies are and who their allies are amongst the arab nations?
Globalisation. The US and the Uk are still independant enough to hinder globalisation efforts. Add in that the Mid-east is not an easy place to tame the best way to remove these obsticals is to have the US and UK do what they have done so far in the Mid-east and then discredit both nations enough to finalize the process...
Thus the final plans for the one world Government can be finished and the leader can arise...Look for one man that will smooth all of this over.....
That's what I think is going on. The US and UK are being shafted by the Globalists...Is Bush or Blair involved? who knows they could have been the recipiants of bad info like so many of us believe.....
Thus the final plans for the one world Government can be finished and the leader can arise...Look for one man that will smooth all of this over.....
That's what I think is going on. The US and UK are being shafted by the Globalists...Is Bush or Blair involved? who knows they could have been the recipiants of bad info like so many of us believe.....
| QUOTE |
| Globalisation. The US and the Uk are still independant enough to hinder globalisation efforts |
Interesting comment, Considering that since Bush Sr. announced a "New world Order" back when the USSR collapsed. Many people thought he was talking about a new one government world. And of course someone from the U.S. would be in charge.
Quote by Bathory:
| QUOTE |
| politician of the early 90's : "Beat up Saddam, he's a threat" politician of the late 90's: "Beat up saddam, he's a bigger threat" Bush beats Saddam up politician: "OMG WHY'D YOU DO THAT YOU BAD PRESIDENT YOU!" |
Exactamundo!
When 9/11 happened the left shouted "Why couldn't you people connect
the dots?!" So we connect the dots and attack Sadaam, and the left
shouts, "Connecting the dots isn't good enough, you should have had
an 8 x 10 glossy!".
You people are just really getting hilarious!
The truth is that some of you (and you know who you are)wish the US
would just fold up and go away and you may even be saddened a bit that 9/11 didn't
accomplish that. But guess what....(I know this is going to offend some of you...
it is just unavoidable)....if the United States falls, so falls all of Britain, so falls all of Europe. The Radical Fundamentalist Islamics will destroy all of civilization.
Yeah some civilians died in Iraq. I do feel for them. Wish it didn't have to
be so. If we do not stop the terrorists it will be the end of civilians because
it will be the end of civilization....and if you don't believe that my friends...I
fear you gravely underestimate our mutual enemies.
Peace and Love,
joc
Joc, where is the evidence that Saddam, or any one in Iraq had anything to do with 9/11
| QUOTE |
| Joc, where is the evidence that Saddam, or any one in Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 |
I don't know. I don't know if they were linked or not. It doesn't matter.
Sadaam is gone and we are safer and that is that. Tit for tat? No, no, no.
It isn't about revenge for 9/11. It is about making sure that 9/11 doesn't
happen again. The only way to do that is to KILL our enemies. KILL them.
Yes I capitalized and embolded the word KILL! Maybe they weren't connected. Then again, maybe they were. Where is your evidence they weren't?
| QUOTE |
| Sadaam is gone and we are safer and that is that. |
I disagree with the statement that we are safer because he's gone. It only gives that radicals more fuel for their extreme beliefs that ALL Americans are evil.
When you have questionable nations such as Pakistan with large Islamic populations and nukes, you have created a situation that can simmer for a long time. It's not going to go away and make anyone safer by going after and killing people.
I agree with you that you cannot reason with these people. Your 110 percent correct in that fact. But each time you take out one of "them" at least three more step in to take thier place.
Even if you closed our borders, deported everyone from this country of mid-eastern decent and outlawed islam in this country. You'll still have 9/11 and 4/19's
Going after anyone without undeniable evidence is ludicrous. Even now Bush is claiming that the intel he recieved may be faulty. If he had solid proof he would have said here it is, that is that. But the fact remains, according to Bush, there may be some failures in the information he presented and it may have been flawed. My belief is that if your going to attack anyone and don't have the support of other world leaders, you make dang sure your intel is undeniable and solid.
When Bush Sr. took out Noriega from Pannama, certain leaders from other countries bashed him for his actions. I was damn proud to see him stand for his belief that Noriega was a drug dealer. And he had the rock solid proof to back it up. While some objected, we were not put in the position that we are now. Because we could back up our claim. Now Iraq is a different ball game but the same intel principles apply.
Has a nation we may have taken care of one threat. But what about the future?
It's no longer a question of what we knew or didn't know, it a question of what everyone perceives happened and our motives. It's not just black and white but a whole lot of shades of grey.
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