so they win by default, good for them, the problem is by giving up, they realise that they have won, that in effect terrorism is an effective measure in getting what you want. Its all case of, do we draw the line?

I think Bush sr.'s nwo quote was overblown....and no the US would not be at the helm either The UN would or whatever the UN becomes when the plan is fulfilled....

Ok this is hilarious, it was actually british fighting british in the american war of independence.

Joc

You are a disgrace, your comments on iraqi civilians are disgusting.!!! if you had a shred of conscience you would apologise for such moronic comments.

I have freinds who live in the same street as me who are iraqi and still have family in iraq. They were overjoyed at saddams capture.

This however does not mean they agreed with us going to war.

Ok Tony Blair claims he didnt know that the 45 minute thing was only describing battlefield weapons(this is so he cant be accused of lying BTW)

If this were true then why in the final Prime Minister's Question time before the vote on the passing of the act of war did he not mention it in his grand slam speech.

He must have knew that it only covered battlefield potential and not a threat to our homeland.

THIS MEANS HE LIED!!! He knew Iraq was no threat to us (i accept he was athreat to his neighbours). This displays that there wasnt a single of evidence that could prove our war was legal.

Someone stated in a post "so we invaded iraq, so wot?", now phsycoticseaotter you turn around and treat everyone who doesnt agree with you with utter contempt.

Dont you understand that the reason people talk about america the way they do is because of posts like that. I mean Iraq was a country for thousands of years, its the brithplace of life and someone from a country thats 500 years old comes along and says something like that.

I mean its like saying Iraqis are sub-human or something.

Can I also remind you that just over 50 years ago a large , powerful nation invaded a wee country called Poland, Now did we sit back and say ah well..... its only poland.

Remind you of anything??????????

You are a funny guy.

Yes it does. It reminds me that when those on the left get backed into a corner by the
truth .... they always start calling people names. Now, because I rebuked you
on the name calling, you apologized...and I accepted it. All well and good.
However, now you are resorting to name calling again my friend and it is a
typical liberal daunt...at last resort... call them Nazis!

LOLOLOLOLOL so WW2 was fought by leftist namecallers. WHAT THE HELL ARE U TALKING ABOUT ?LOL.

That statement makes absolutley no sense whatsoever lol its hilarious. Did u read what you posted?

I have also noticed that when confronted with fact you choose to simply ignore it lol That is the true nature of being rebuked. When you cant come up with an argument to prove your point. I suggest you read up on your history and find some literature on politics and ideaology. Oh an maybe a brittanica encycolpedia to find out that theres actually 6 billion people on this planet and only 250 million of them are american.

Your right, But you have to look at perception of the comment. There were several polls done after the first time Bush Sr. made the statement. What I found interesting was that most thought he was gloating, saying America is number 1. Most correct.

Coming in a close second were people who thought Bush was claiming that the world was going to a single government with the U.S. leading the way.

And third is your statement, that the U.N. was taking over. The problem is that it may have been an innocent statement, but it what people percieve of the statement's meaning.

Bathory, I consider you a intelligent person and I don't want you to feel insulted, so please take what I'm saying with the spirit of freindship. Your are right, terroism is a very effective tool. And sad to say they do win. Terroism isn't just blowing stuff up. It's causing the receiving country to expend resources and efforts to prevent future attacks. Because the government needs to control the population in order to stop more terrorist acts, they have to take away a certain amount of freedom and privacy. Each time a new threat comes in or act is carried out, control is tightened. Sad to say it is effective. If I had all the answers I would get my dead butt out of this W/C and run for Emperor of the North

wunarmdscissor

This is great. Please know that not all americans feel this way. We do have respect for our freinds across the pond. (If ya all cosider the Alantic a 'pond' what the heck does a lake look like? )

Nuclear weapons? WMD? Hmm, interesting, isn't this your argument for invading a soverign nation bathory?

My point was that there are other countries who abuse human rights and are a threat to other nations, which I thought was the point of you pro-war boys' argument for invading Iraq.

Ah, I get it, invade the countries you know we can beat because they are run by a tyrant and have WMD's, but ignore the ones who may actually put up a fight even though they are more dangerous!!

Brilliant, we are now the Official Allied Hypocrites of the World - right, where's Cuba on the map, we can probably finish them off before tea and get back intime for the 8pm movie.

By implying that what happened in Iraq is analogous to what happened
with Hitler and Poland you are indirectly calling the Bush administration
and therefore those who support him...Nazis.

If not what did you mean?

Stamford's Dictionary; definition of sovereign nation:

Any and all nations....even those who rape and use WMD on the populace
of said nation. Even those who export terrorism and harbour terrorists.

Thou shalt not invade or seek to destroy any nation which is sovereign,
especially if they hate you and want to destroy you.

What terrorists, joc?

Repeat after me "There is no proof whatsoever that Iraq had any involvement in 911".

I have always said that Saddam was an evil tyrant and I do not defend his actions on his own people, although your country and mine was happy to turn a blind eye to all of his nasty little habits when he was our buddy.

If you ever hint that I defend rapists again, I will simply stop trying to have a serious debate with you, joc; please feel free to argue with me, you can even call me a liberal moron, etc, etc, but never someone who doesn't care about rape!!

My comment about a soverign nation was correct, Iraq was and we conducted an illegal war; by setting this precident, can we honestly stand up against another country that does the same using the argument that they felt they were under threat?

Did i call them nazis?

Did i mention the word nazi?

I wont even argue with you about WW2 as you showed in another thread that , to put it politley, your knowledge on that subject is limited.

All i was stating was that there are very disturbing similarities to us invading soveriegn nations without any legal cause nor any threat to our homeland from said country.

Was that not what germany did to poland?

I didnt mention anything to do with politics, you are just hellbent on insisting that everyone who has a differing opinion from you is a leftwing commie-mongerer.

U are proving my point by ignoring these facts as well, please answer this time.

1. George Bush did say that Iraq was an "imininent" danger and this was his arguement for going to war. Now give me a constructive answer to this How can you justify the war when our premise for going to war was false AND iraq had no links to Al Queda?

2.If our premise for going to war was WMD;s and there not there then how can you continualy justify a war that even Bush and Blair are holding enquiries into how exactly we got into war in the 1st place?

3.How if as i have showing that blair clearly lied as he clearly knew there was no 45 minute danger to our homeland that he didnt lie? Your last answer to that was "ill give im the benefit of the doubt". If blair knew the full truth then am sure Bush did too. Another point you chose to just ignore.

4. How exactly can you equate 8000 iraqi lives for 3000 americans? Bear in mind that these poor iraqi civilians had nothing even in the slightest to do with 9/11. Explain your moronic position on this. Once again a point you've chosed to ignore.

5. After youve explained that, then explain how you can still justify 8000 INNOCENTS DYING OVER FAULTY INTELLIGENCE?

6. How can you after all this still sit and say blindly without consideration that UN was wrong, nearly every other country in the planet told us we were wrong?

7. Why is it you always say it wasnt them who was attacked it was us? America stuick its nose into Russia's business over chechnya, to whom they have lost more lives than america did ten times oever? WHat is the difference? Why should other countries not have a say over this war when america imposes its will on many other nations, like ourselvers. America told Britain to be less "hard" on Irish republicans.?

After you have actually come up with constructive responses to these comments without resoting to calling me a "commie" or saying "kill em all and let god deal with them" then ill get some respect for you. Untill then....

Oh an by the way, what would God think of your opinions on Iraqi civilians eh?

There is an old saying: The guilty dog always barks first.

So there are no rapes in America, I forgot all americans are god fearing lovely people who would never resort to such things.....

Or were you meaning it in a wider sense, like Iraq as a country Rape the world, Ok another moronic comment.

What was that i hear oh yeah the kyoto agreement, Joc america is just as guilty of raping the world than any other country.

Do you know what the Kyoto agreement is? Ill give you time to do a google search.

"There is no proof whatsoever that Iraq had any involvement in 911"

*scratches left side of cheek with right arm draped over head and
wonders why all the terrorists are now flocking to Iraq*

And the guiltier dog never seems to have a direct response.

Cause they get a chance to cause harm and damage to us nasty Americans?
Cuase they get a chance to cause harm and damage to those nasty Iraqi's that helped us nasty Americans. ?
Cause they have nothing better to do?

OMG this is unbelievable.

You dont understand in the slightest do u?

There are 2 reasons why theyre flocking NOW AFTER THE WAR:

1. Weve gave them a focal point to direct their anger, an enitire country to spread theyre evil hatred and we've supplied the fuel to create millions of suicide bombers.

2. Weve made the place such a lawless, anarchic state that there are no proper border controls, weapons galore and no police to govern it. There were no terrorists before but we bloody turned it into a paradise for them.

SEE HOW I ACTUALLY RESPOND TO YOUR QUESTIONS WITH REASON.

Exactly and this is because he doesnt fully understand the situation. I dont know wether to pity him or be angry with him, he's been fed this propoganda for so long that its brainwashed him.

Then i think that its people like him sending our countries into wars like this that are in charge of our country's.

Dont worry blair will be gone soon an brown will be in charge. Then we'll have a labour prime minister. No more wars without cause with him in charge.

No he doesn't. Not at all.

I have said this repeatedly.

He is extrememly...vocal...but not representative of how Americans feel. He represents some, but not what I would consider a scary amount. Scary people for sure. Scary thought processes no doubt...

There are some in every country who rape. Let's not confuse them
with Sadaam's rape chambers and torture chambers OK?!

I do know what the Kyoto agreement is...it is the Leftists agreeing that
America is responsible for the worlds woes.

SEE all your saying is "blah blah blah LEFTIST blah blah blah"

Obviously youve never heard of kyoto as it is on enviromental issues and the somple SCIENTIFIC FACT is that america is the single worst polluter on the planet.

You still havent responded to my 7 earlier questions. SHow us you arent as close minded as we all believe you to be an answer the damn questions.

Well there you go then the man without a brain has spoken, so everyone we must all be communist idiots.

Dont ever presume to tell me that i hate america.

Im gonna ask all americans in the forum that are reading and have read my post.

Do you think i hate america? Or are my responses on a totally seperate issue from my feelings towards america?

This little statement of his says alot all by its self.

You can't discuss anything with this comment

Evidence does not matter, only the outcome

Morning FB

*IS a socialist, and after reading this thread thinks that Joc, just like so many other topics, knows absolutely nothing about what the left wing of the political spectrum represents *

Go visit China and then come back and laugh at your post with me!

And what preytell will i find exactly in china that will give me a chuckle wen i view your very daft posts?

Yes you do. No they are not.

I have discussed it at length. Which part did you not understand?

Oh, I don't know, maybe factories belching smoke with no smog protection at
all. Probably millions of cars which lack the sophisticated exhaust protection
mandated on all US made automobiles.
You are completely clueless and your ignorance glorifies what you refer to
in others as moronic attitudes. China and the rest of the 3rd world is polluting
this planet and you want to blame the US. I recently had my automobile inspected
and before I could get it passed I had to buy a new Gas Tank Cap because mine
was leaking fumes. How did they know that? Because of the sophisticated
equipment and mandated laws. Get your facts straight buddy. You don't know
what you are talking about. You just spew mindless, vicious, leftist crap! Now get
off joc's back and re-evaluate your objectives.

Not half as glad as I will be! But more here for financial reasons.

Nothing. Joc has elaborately answered my question and this thread is now locked I'm afraid.