Hey. As long is it is not happening to me, do what you want. If an action does not affect anyone but that person, it should be none of our business.

What's absurd is you trying to make an issue out of this when in affect your stating the same thing, all animals act differently, if one group of animals have a particular trait or behaviour pattern it's not necessarily right for other groups.

Depending on how we define natural, I think we agree on that.

I misunderstood, I thought you were justifying the unnaturality of homosexuality with animals which have nothing to do with humans.

'Lt_Ripley' "I hate bringing up this issue for it's own sake because I feel in alot of ways it's beating a dead horse. Science is more sure than not it's a natural state , but that is not why I ask. I ask because Atheists do not believe in God. So I wonder what their stance is on this subject in relation to the fact that the only reason at it's base that gays and lesbians are 'looked down at ' 'viewed as immoral' or 'unnatural' is solely religious thinking and permeation of society ."

Neither atheist/agnostic nor gay, voted Natural.

In reading up on the 'gay gene' to combat extreme anti-gay sentiments where I live, where *spam filter* between consenting adults is still criminal, I found an article by a renowned researcher who said he could not discount the social factor apart from genetics. Cannot now find that article, but in trying found this useful article on a website new to me: http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/20...-by-choice.html

I live in the UK and i dont think schools teach this becasue they want to glorify it . but people cry out that sex education needs to be taught in schools but is that only okay if its for straight people . of course not. there is a chance some in a class of 40 may be gay . so why not teach them too wether they are 8 or sixteen does not matter The message mainly is safe sex and so they will have an understanding of their changing bodies and emotions that come with that . and hopefully anything they have been taught previously by their parents or peers that may have made them think being different was abnormal will be resolved by it . not just for those who may be gay but also as a lesson for those who aren't too hopefully understand that it isnt abnormal or dirty or wrong .

Personally i think its great . I want my kids to know that if ever they feel desire for the same sex that they are not different or unnatural and that they can expess themselves without fear of being seen as bad people or somehow lesser beings than theiir friends becasue of who they choose to date .

SS79 x x x

science says it's natural, so it is.

I believe they have found an area in the brain that works different in homosexuals than in heterosexuals. Could be some kind of natural population control?

well I was raised in a straight household. didn't know ANYONE who was gay growing up. never seen something like it on tv . all my siblings are straight. ( I actually didn't know what the word gay ment until I was 13 and heard it in school. yet I knew how I felt at 6-7. knew I was different. got crushes on girls ect.. but about 12(hormones ) I 'really ' understood I was different , yet never entered my head society wasn't positive in how I felt.)

so how was I influenced ?

I hear many 'so called ' experts say social factor , yet I want to know ----- What social factor ???? Most know when they are kids ! they may not be able to express the idea but know like I did. It wasn't sexual then , just a feeling. emotionally. I really can't describe it. it's probably what straight little girls end up feeling for little boys. how do you describe that ? it isn't sexual . yet a girl of 6 will say 'billy is my boyfriend' . well that's how I felt about Susan !!

while I think social factors can be some sort of issue later and usually to the negitive with shame. I don't see how it affects one's basic sexuality. does it affect one to become heterosexual? if it affects one it should the other.

I think the social arguement is kept on for now to fill the gap. I have found no one that says childhood social factors made them gay. And I also know many grown kids to lesbians. many. yet I don't know of any that are gay. I'm sure it happens . it's like throwing dice. eventually one will hit. but I personally out of about 20 kids raised in gay families don't know of any. And I live in Detroit ! not exactly known for gay families.

Social factors don't play a large role in it, if any. Its genetically determined.
I would refer you to this link Ripley for more information.

I'm curious, hetrodoxly, does this imply women are allowed to be homosexual but men aren't?

One thing I think a lot of people have problems with is separating what makes a person homosexual from their ways of expressing their love for their partner. Homosexuality isn't sex, homosexuality is having attraction and love for your same gender.

There is obviously a reinforcement of our linking of homosexuality to the sex-act in the language we use - homosexuality, same-sex partner etc - but sex, in this context, is the gender, not the act.

Men like women can be what they want, read my first post, but the anus isn't designed for penetrative sex so therefor not natural, i could be more detailed like size and frequency that is practised by some predatory males that can causes them problems in later life, people do lots of unnatural things to their body and that's their choice, but if anyone's looking for reassurance or approval i'm not your man.

I had a relationship with a bisexual woman who had a lesbian girlfriend, both got into the life style through the same route, their male partners wanted to see them have sex with women, the one realised she was a lesbian and immediately left her spanish boyfriend, the woman i had a great relationship with needed both men and women.

I agree 100%. I respect everyone's decisions on how to live their lives as long as they are not harming themselves or anyone else. I may not like the site of two guys kissing or hugging all over eachother, but that does not make it wrong, and I do not judge you for it. It's just not my cup of tea. One thing that did piss me off though, is that one person was upset with me for saying that homosexuality grossed me out. Is it my fault I'm turned off by it? Gah, we all have sexual preferences and I never said I thought it was wrong or anything.

you'll find that those who 'realize' later their sexuality always had known one way or another . but denial can run deep.

while reading this it made me think about my questioning men ( because the bulk is , not to single them out) who find themselves disguested imagining or seeing 2 men in any sort of intimate situation. I wonder as to why they are . taught to find it such ?

not being turned on at the thought is different. that wouldn't include a judgement of any kind . example - I think the male body is beautiful . I'm an artist. yet I've never been turned on by one. I am not a huge breast woman. huge breasts don't turn me on at all. But again I love painting or sculpting them. I don't have a negitive response to them.

I have to admit , and I'm not sure where it comes from , but seeing a man and woman kiss is a bit squimish for me. to me it doesn't feel natural in a way. yet the rest doesn't bother me. so I even have some of my own beliefs to look at. How did I come about with this ? why should it affect me at all ? I'm sure it doesn't affect all gay and lesbian people like that. for some it may be more . for some less.

but what really brings us to that ? hormones ? judgement ? anger ? shame ? beliefs from others ? a very interesting thought.

Internal psychological problems?

that would be those who are homophobic only.

I voted natural. As it's been witnessed in quite a few other species.

I wonder if those other species found it natural?

Bonobos, which are a species of chimpanzee, are known to undergo homosexual activity, which is used as a greeting on occasion.

I went trough a bi phase or thought I was. It didn't do very much for me, but I wasn't really attracted to these women.

The one I didn't like her looks-wasn't my type > and the other was too goofy,childish in her personality.

Some women are more beautiful than any man. Some women's bodies are extremely sensual,beautiful.

Women are the appetizer (visually) & men (not just any man) are the main course for me.

Of course, many famous people are gay...why, only recently Jodie Foster has just come out.


And then there's Cher's and Sonny's daughter Chastity.
Although I can't find any pics.
All I could find was Cher with her, (I presume) new personal bodyguard. (He looks hard!)
I'll post anyway..

Oh right... it's just, I didn't notice it on your list of possibilities-

Come on Billy, Jody and Cherr in bed together I know you would like that. Just cause we are not invited makes no never mind. I have had a bi gf and it was awsome. As far as raising kids, well my friend we will call him Bob had to mothers aka if you wish lesbians and right now he is married and has two kids and I'm sure he's working on one more. He's got a really hot wife. I don't think he was adversely affected.

Oh wait this was about Atheists LOL as far as god judging an Atheist over man judging an Atheist well, don't matter does it.

i would have to say natural. I believe if you love someone,you love someone regardless of race, religion, creed, sexual orientation. Its like my dad says "theres someone for everyone".

I don't mind Cher but I never liked Jodie Foster. There was always something 'manly' about her... If you know what I mean.

From the Atheist agnostic viewpoint.. there isn't a vote option.. which I agree with..but then again, this thread was created by Lt Ripley.
I don't think you can lump all gay people together.
I've met some gay people who are gay (probably) due to their genetics.
I've met some gay people- who are gay (probably) because of deep-seeded psychological reasons.
And there's probably those who are inbetween the two.

mhm. I put that I'm indifferent to homosexuals.

Personally I don't see why its such a big issue, what happens behind closed doors stays there. I really could not care less if a bloke is sleeping with another bloke. Its really not a big deal.

I've never really understood why there is such a deepseated hatred for homosexuals by so many people. Personally I don't think its important enough an issue to consider. I've got plenty of gay friends and their being gay has never had much to do with the friendship. One of them even 'came out' to me and attempted to court me and since we are still good friends.

If someone dislikes gay people then I would suggest the problem lies with the person who is disliking someone for something that has absolutely nothing to do with the person in the first place.

We could break down sexual preferences all night long, but I for one nor care about a gay couple bring up a child. I think there are much bigger issues on the plate. Such as Cherr, you know she goes both ways, right billy, and damn that out fit did I say out fit right? any way her on the battle ship, oh ya, but Jody, not a throw away either. Semantics really It's about what you personally want. To love god in anyway shape or form or not to, and that goes for all. I don't think we are condemned, just live life as best you can and be happy. Ok that was my x-mas thing coming out, be kind to all.

That s the thing, Your personal take means Little. It's what the goverment and church take on. I to care little who loves who, but the battle is should goverment recognize gays as being couples able to marry. I guess this part of the argument was steamed that since Atheists do not believe in god that Atheists should be associated with guys. Another smear campaign.

Do they have *spam filter*? i thought they just fenced with their penises, because Bonobos sword fight with their willys when greeting each other do you think human males should do the same, if so give me fair warning if we ever meet

Chimpanzees will kill a stranger from another group, does this justify gang warfare?

not like Jodie !!!! ??? she's our high queen ! lol

and she's not as manly as some. she's not as manly as some straight women ! Heck she's more feminine than alot of straight women !

yet more than 60% of Bonobos females engage in same sex sex.

same sex sex/intimacy happens all though nature. and we are a part of nature.

yet we go to war over resources just as animals do. over land just as animals do.

I don't know she always reminds me of Odo ( orwhatever his name is) from deep space nine.





Besides is she really gay?
She seems really happy embraced with this man, I mean don't they make a lovely couple...

I voted indifferent. I could not give a good goddamn if people love someone of the same sex.

Is it natural? Well i guess it must be, all these gay people have not been genetically modified or brainwashed have they?

I had a gay experience once, I watched Broke Back Mountain. I had foolishly told a mate that I enjoyed watching cowboy films but he obviously misunderstood me when i said i enjoyed watching a man unloading his weapon inside chaps!!!!!!!





P.S. Broke back Mountain is also the name given to the pile of women that Chuck Norris has had sex with.

Dude you're a star, an absolute star.

she has had to have had some cosmetic surgery done. and I don't think it looks good. yeah she just recently thanked her partner during some award ----- I wasn't paying attention. lol

she does look a bit like Odo.

I voted indifferent, but my take on homosexuality hasn't always been so.

From preschool to sixth grade, I went to a Catholic school. I was quick to defend my beliefs and rejected anything that contradicted them. As shameful as it is to say, I strongly disliked, if not hated, homosexuals. And unluckily for me, it was becoming more acceptable for my peers to "act" gay. If you're in school now, I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about.
But around the beginning of my sophomore year (I'm a senior now), I started thinking differently. I had been visiting these forums everyday since the start of my freshman year, and it really opened my mind. It seemed as if one day I just found it alright for people to do as they please, so long as it adversely affected anyone else. At this same time, I began questioning my faith. Now, I'm agnostic. I have people constantly rudely commenting on my lack of faith and trying to convert me to Christianity. Not only am I harrassed about my lack of religious beliefs, but also my mindset on social issues, mainly homosexuality. I find it quite an oxymoron that my friends state they would be uncomfortably around a gay person or even harrass them, yet have no problem grabbing each others genitals (no, it's not a joke). I have no attraction to other guys, but I have no problem giving one of my guy friends a hug or saying "I love you"; neither do they have any sort of problem reciprocating the actions.
To relate this to the topic, I do think religious views have a strong influence on a person's view on homosexuals- but they don't necessarily determine one's views. I am the only one of my friends who does not believe in the Christian God, and I am the only one who does not have a problem with homosexuals. As far as my own experiences with religion, my belief faltered after I became more openminded.

I would do ODO as long as he/she/it shape shifted into Jody, or Cherr. Anyway, oh man this has gotten wierd and i like it.

This was a very good post. Your belief is what you want it to be and don't change what you believe. Your acceptance to homosexuality is commendable. When I was young, I to had a dis-like of homosexuals and now, I find it rather awsome. I'm a straight guy that just had to give his head a shake and wow, for me I like the diversity that people have. I'm more than willing to have gay friends on both sides if I may say that. The more the marrier LOL

I don't give a flying toss if she is gay or not..she is a bloody good actress (two time Oscar winner)..and I wish I had her fame and fortune..

end off!!

I thought you opposed war?

She does, as do I. War is only fought when needed. I stress NEEDED. We have failed as war is fought over nothing these days. It's not fought to help, it's not fought to liberate as some might lead you to believe. It is fought for profit, and well we are really only one step up from a monkey, just look around.

I resemble that Remark!!!!!!!

1 the figure on Bonobos females ? it may have been on a gay site ( and alot of straight ones like Science) but the research presented was by Dr Bruce Bagemihl . who by the way is straight !! ( just one of many researchers )

yes I'm opposed to war. and while it may be natural , humans are smarter than chimps or should be. falling in love doesn't kill where war does.

If your using nature to back up your side of the debate (i don't think you need to) you have to accept all of it, from chimpanzees ripping monkeys to bits to dolphins killing porpoise for the fun of it, by saying humans should know better your saying humans are different to animals.

I'm surprised you didn't know Bruce Bagemihl is gay?

See, before I'm accused of being homophobic. these statements, people try and sneek in are just wrong.

er Dr Bruce Bagemihi isn't straight he's gay... and his book Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity, has been universally panned by naturalists. It's bad science...bad research and deceptive; it obvious he employed an artist to make up the drawings of animals engaging in consenting homosexual behaviour. It's hilarious. The premise is wrong from the start by applying human based political correct concepts such as 'Gender based diversity' and 'animal culture' to the animal world.
But that should be obvious from the cover.. (is a bird of paradise gay? because it's colourful?)





"Although heterosexual mating can (and frequently does) lead to reproduction, this is often an incidental consequence rather than an overriding "goal" or ultimate purpose". Sexual pleasure is often a motivating force for heterosexual behaviour". So to conclude, homosexuality is not unique in the animal kingdom by virtue of its "failure" to lead to procreation. Dr Bruce Bagemihl

See, this is the major flaw and you can see the reason why there is a distinction between individuals in a scientific theory (epistemology) and individuals in real life (ontology). As a person I can say that reproduction is not important in my life, but in the theory of evolution reproduction is crucial.

Thanks seffy!
I never thought of it like that before..
but you're right! I am a Star!......a Superstar! at the gaybar, gaybar thread!

Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate
James Owen in London
for National Geographic News

July 23, 2004
Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it. So go the lyrics penned by U.S. songwriter Cole Porter.

Porter, who first hit it big in the 1920s, wouldn't risk parading his homosexuality in public. In his day "the birds and the bees" generally meant only one thing—sex between a male and female.



Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates.

Wild birds exhibit similar behavior. There are male ostriches that only court their own gender, and pairs of male flamingos that mate, build nests, and even raise foster chicks.

Filmmakers recently went in search of homosexual wild animals as part of a National Geographic Ultimate Explorer documentary about the female's role in the mating game. (The film, Girl Power, will be screened in the U.S this Saturday at 8 p.m. ET, 5 p.m PT on MSNBC TV.)

The team caught female Japanese macaques engaged in intimate acts which, if observed in humans, would be in the X-rated category.

"The homosexual behavior that goes on is completely baffling and intriguing," says National Geographic Ultimate Explorer correspondent, Mireya Mayor. "You would have thought females that want to be mated, especially over their fertile period, would be seeking out males."

Well, perhaps, in a roundabout way, they are seeking males, suggests primatologist Amy Parish.

She argues that female macaques may enhance their social position through homosexual intimacy which in turn influences breeding success. Parish says, "Taking something that's nonreproductive, like mounting another female—if it leads to control of a resource or acquisition of a resource or a good alliance partner, that could directly impact your reproductive success."

Sexual Gratification


Continued on Next Page


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20..._gayanimal.html

and no where can I find that Dr Bruce Bagemihl is gay. and what would being gay have to do with science fact ?

Yeah he's gay.. do remember ages ago? I found the link... which, now has suspiciously disappeared... I wonder why.
I'm fed up of that flawed book being cited. Like I said, many people don't care about homosexuality in humans.. but when pseudoscience is passed off as scientific fact; it's just wrong.
Of course homosexuality can be seen in animals- but what are the motivations of the animals.. and the agenda of the researchers.
we know the ultimate purpose of sex in the animal kingdom- which is reproduction. That's Scientific fact.


Here's some so-called gay insects-
I'm not sure what they're trying to say here? er males prefer males because they er batter in the heads of the females during sex. lol

Dragonflies
Male homosexuality has been inferred in several species of dragonflies (the order Odonata). The cloacal pinchers of male damselflies and dragonflies inflict characteristic head damage to females during sex. A survey of 11 species of damsel and dragonflies[29][30] has revealed such mating damages in 20 to 80 % of the males too, indicating a fairly high occurrence of sexual coupling between males.

Homosexuality in animals

From NNDB:

Although gay himself, Bagemihl says he did not write his landmark book (which he spent nine years researching) simply because of his own sexual identity but rather because "the implications for humans are enormous." As if to echo this sentiment, his work on animal homosexuality was cited in the U.S. Supreme Court case Lawrence v. Texas to demonstrate the naturalness of male-male sodomy. The law in question, which criminalized sodomy, was ruled unconstitutional.

Bagemihl does not distinguish between the biological and the human perspective. From the scientific perspective, reproduction is characteristic of life and evolution.
Without reproduction every biological species on earth is doomed to extinction. Viewed from that perspective, it does not matter how much time individuals spend on mating or how many individuals of a population engage in sexual reproduction.
It is true, but irrelevant that not every heterosexual mating results in fertilisation. It is true, but irrelevant that 'animal life and sexuality are not organised exclusively around procreation'. The point is that every individual animal, including the homosexual individual, is the product of sexual reproduction.