Why is it so often that many people of faith feel there is "no point" to life without god ?

Often they say "What's the point then ?" I find this response/attitude odd .

the only goal in life is to live. thats it.

I would certainly hope so

Gives them the false sense of security by re-enforcing the idea that they matter.

Has to really nag at them that there are millions of atheists still living, working, having families and having fun while being meaningless.

Well maybe we don't matter in the universe and the earth doesn't need us (we are like a cancer).

But we do matter to each other & our loved ones.

In the end thats all that matters.

Bill Hicks has a good point about Life Enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q95kX_EP2Nk

Point to life? Easy! To give me all the rum. *nods sagely*

Indeed.

The point of life is to learn and grow and explore the true nature of the Universe. I don't know where this come from, but we are the evolution of the Universe to reflect upon itself.

Well its not in religions interest to have people realizing there is alot more to life than suggested in their archaic texts.

Someone who does not believe in God, That seems to always find questions about him and have many answers about him,What is their purpose? What can that person possibly stand to gain by asking questions they obviously already know the answer to? If one does not believe in God one does not continually try and discredit his exsistence. Thats just my opinion , I don't have all the answers to the important questions ,But like everyone I have my own personal veiws.

I can't offer answers that pertain to everyone, but I'am willing to share with you as to why I feel a need to discuss the belief in a God. Alot of people can sit back and say live and let live when it pertains to the belief in God, and in normal social situations that is exactly my stance. In this type of arena though , specifically this thread, it is the theme to openly discuss and dissect this very topic.

When someone enters into this type arena and voices there belief in contrast to another's , then that belief or opinion becomes open to examination. If an individual does not want their belief or opinion thrown onto the slab and dissected then it be best not to enter that belief into an arena called "Spirituality vs Skepticism"., because the key word there is VS.

A personal and intimate relationship to a deity is great. What i feel the need to audit is alot of the false beliefs that alot of devoutees have a predilection to promote, young earth creationists, morality only found in a god, the condemnation of others to hell,mankind born into sin, and a salvation or damnation based on worship.

I see organized religion as a tool of the rulers of society since time in memorial. That there was a time when mankind had an extreme penchant to personify things that were not yet understood, it is this penchant that was exploited in order to rule the masses, which led to the organization of religion.

I personally do not believe that human beings should worship anything, not a movie star nor a deity. A salvation or damnation doled out based on worship i feel in my heart to be logically flawed, and therefore non-existent.

Are we talking about "THE POINT OF LIFE!!! big picture. i e why has life come into existence? Or, The point of A life(usually that of the individual asking the question)

The first one is a difficult philosophical question. Possible answers may be

Atheist:There is none

Deists: Only god knows

Philosopher: Because. (the philosopher's answer to any question)

The second is much easier. A person's purpose in life is whatever they define it to be. If they fail to define a purpose then their life may be meaningless, but otherwise most purposes are equally valid. People with a single purpose tend to be very successful in one direction. People whose purpose is more multifunctional may be less directly successful, but often more interesting.
I believe one should discover, and define, ones purpose; using all the skills at ones disposal, and then make a bit of a game of achieving it. This will require a lifetime of creating and honing new skills, through first gaining knowledge, and then through practice. This is the same as how one improves at any game. Some parts can be done alone, but the game is more fun, interesting and challenging, when played with others.

Perhaps by virtue of having an inquisitive and analytical nature we have come to be atheists.

Beliefs change the world, I consider myself to live in a community with all the good and bad that entails so it matters to me what others believe.

Although I agree with Chauncy – it is the nature of this forum to be that way.

Edit: I went mad and thought that was the original question! I think religion provides a purpose and they can't imagine that life would be fulfilling without it. Like we atheists are just randomly roaming around aimlessly pursuing whatever takes our momentary fancy.

Funny, I feel the other way around is odd. What's the point of a human life with God?

He's omnipotent, or so his devotees say he says. If there is some specific way that the Universe ought to be, then he can simply make it so, with or without us. Any complication is of his own making, and so necessarily arbitrary.

If we each have some role in The Divine Plan, then it seems like it must be something out of a satirical work-for-welfare scheme. Some of us sweep up the leaves in the park, while others of us spread leaves in the park for the others to sweep up.

Swell.

way too small goal ..at least for me ..

I believe that the point to life is to experience the full impact of what our decisions and the decisions of others have, so that those who accept the gift of eternal life will learn a lesson which will be with them eternally and will insure that they never again make any decision without weighing all of the impact, and will clearly understand, through first-hand experience, the foolishness of disregarding God's guidance.


I agree with this. However, this raises one particular question to me: Who do you know who believes salvation/damnation is based on worship? And is that a personal belief of theirs or is it a religious belief?

many people believe that their life is to serve God in every way possible...negativity sets in and makes for a hard battle....sometimes the battle gets old and you get tired...i am guilty of this sometimes...this is being human...this is true no matter who you serve or don't serve...life can be very hard and tiresome...but if you have something to believe in that gives you hope for the future life is a little easier...

randomhit10

I don't think an Atheist says there is no point to life. living in and of its' self is a point. to live and maybe live well. to survive. to enjoy , to love ...... all these things atheists do too .

and a purpose isn't always a point. Most don't know what their purpose was/is until after accomplishing it. We may think we know what it is but life has a way of changing things on a dime outside our control. and really the only thing we have any real control over is our response ( so I've been told)

Frankly, I think the question to atheists specifically about what the point of life is if there is no God has been cheapened, because it is a very deeply philosophical question going beyond the flip answers that are given to it today. Obviously, the same is true for the answers most theists give this question.

The reason I say the question has been cheapened is because the answers usually given start from the basis of "Now that I am here, what is the purpose to MY life," and that answer is then expanded globally as if that answer is the total answer when really the question, I think, is not simply "Why is there life?" but included within that question are also the questions: "Why do I question the reason for life? Why do I need a purpose for my life? Why is it important that I make an impact with my life? Why should I continue to live? Why do I care what will happen once I am no longer alive? Why do I care to live my life the way I am doing it?"

The real answers to the question what is the point of life if there is no God, should really answer all of those questions.

Is this not the basis of , for example the Christian faith?......even accepting Jesus as a saviour as a messiah yet to come constitues worship.

Saying this prayer constitutes worship:Dear Lord, I Believe you died and rose from the dead. I know and confess that I am a sinner and lost without you. I ask you to forgive my sins and come into my heart. I give my life to you and want to live for you the rest of my life. I thank you Lord and praise you. Please guide me and direct me for the rest of my life! In Jesus name I pray.

As per traditional christian tachings this is the path to salvation, without this one faces damnation.......so most certainly this is a religious belief.



Well then Iamson lets answer those questions without the idea of god, a salvation, or a damnation.

Why do I question the reason for life?: There is no immediate reason for life upon birth, but throughout one's life we discover reasons we choose reasons enhance apon them and create new ones.....a continuous improvement type scenario. Self discovery being the most basic of quests I do believe, that to truly know one's self is to truly understand life. and wouldn't this question more accurately read as per this threads question: "What is the meaning to life" as apposed to "Why do I question the reason for life".....because it is most certainly OK, indeed healthy, to question. Instead of "why you question", move past that and just question!!

Why do I need a purpose for my life?: Not believing that you have a purpose won’t prevent you from discovering it, just as a lack of belief in gravity won’t prevent you from tripping. To know your purpose you have to look at what you desire, and to have a diacritic knowledge of what you desire at any given minute. A purpose in life IMO changes from second to second, to be aware of this fact and to act when your purpose changes is a true achievement of cognizance. For example : If your carrying about your day and you see someone that is depressed and you do not want them that way or you want to be able to help them, then at that moment your purpose is to do so, by your own choosing. As i said becoming aware of a changing purpose is the quest.

The difference in philosophy between believers in God and non-believers is the fact that believers allocate that their purpose is doled out by God, or that their purpose is to serve God. which having a purpose to serve God may in fact culminate in a positive outcome as in the example of helping someone, but which is more true to one's self?

Why is it important that I make an impact with my life?: Is it important to feel the need to make an impact or is making an impact as a result of lving a life with true awareness of one's self......indeed the path to knowing one's self is tantamount to making an impact with your life it is an inevitable by-product.

Why should I continue to live?: Nobody can answer that question for you. That is a question that must be answered within yourself. If someone is at a point where they are asking this question then they are probably at a low point in life, they obviously need assistance and are reaching out for help. Sure religion can ofer an epoxy type refuge for this question, but to answer the questions above may in fact have more of a true motivational aftereffect.

Why do I care what will happen once I am no longer alive?: Caring what will happen once your gone usually refers, unless I'm misreading the question, to those that you love, family and friends. Caring about people in life is one of the true rewards of living a good life, because to care for people means that you too are cared for....being loved is an inevitable result of loving.

Unless Iamson you are refering to a salvation or damnation with this question.

Why do I care to live my life the way I am doing it?": This question is obvious in my opnion. If you are living an honest life with love and positive energy and influence, then those characteristics are reciprocated to you as a result. To live the opposite of these honorable chracteristics will result in negative reciprocation....bottom line you will be unhappy and discontent with your life, it will result in a feeling of regret.

Although I agree that this particular prayer does include worship, that prayer, or really any prayer in itself is not what brings you salvation. Salvation comes because of what that prayer expresses not because the prayer is repeated; it is not a magic chant. It is the realization that one has sinned and separated from God because of that willful sin along with the acceptance of God's gift that brings about salvation, not the prayer itself. Therefore, it is not worshiping or refusing to worship which decides salvation or damnation, it is our actions which do so. It is our actions--willfully choosing to do what we know is wrong--which damn us, and it is our actions--acknowledging that our willful choice to disobey has caused a permanent separation from God, and that we are incapable of repairing that separation and that only God can and has provided us with an opportunity to repair the relationship--which bring us to salvation.


Thanks for taking the time to provide these answers Chauncy.


You're still not really approaching the questions from the depth I was trying to plumb. This type of question, I think, reaches down to our very sense of "being." The fact that we question why there should be life at all indicates to me that man equates life itself with purpose. If we did not sense a purpose to life we would have no reason to question why there should be life in the first place. Why aren't we (as a whole) simply satisfied just to "be?" It may well be that the vast majority of people are completely blissful in their ignorance for "being", but if even one of us has taken the time to look around and look "inside" and asked "Why?" that to me indicates that man considers his existence to be of some importance, whether we believe it happened as mere chance or not, the fact that we are here now requires that we do "something." Which then brings the question "Why do we feel we need to do something?"

I'm not simply asking why you, Chauncy, are alive and seeking purpose, I am asking why mankind is not only alive, but why do we reason in such a way that we question why we are alive, and why we feel like we do or should have a purpose?

From a general viewpoint? Well life is a manifestation of matter which will occur whenever possible, and as such has no particular meaning in the way that gravity doesn't have a "meaning".

From the point of view of human biology, the meaning in our lives is to make sure our species keeps living - i.e. to reproduce.

From the point of view of the individual, the meaning of life is to do whatever they see fit.

The purpose of my life? To enjoy the only life I will ever have.

Regardless how you word it or what semantics you use, the fact remains that as per christian teachings you cannot reach salvation without worship.

Is there anyway what-so-ever that a person can reach this alledged salvation without some form of worship of the christian god?

"God can and has provided us with an opportunity to repair the relationship--which bring us to salvation".....does worship have anything to do with the oppurtunity this God has provided us to repair the relationship to bring us to salvation?



I think that the fact that we are actauly "aware" that we are alive has alot to do with this. We are "aware" that we are alive and we are also aware that our actions and reactions have an affect on our environment.

We do feel very far removed from alot of the other living things on this planet because of this awareness.....and we do most certainly care about this fact.



Well quite simply Iamson it is because we are missing something!!

I disagree, Chauncy, there is a difference between worshiping God, and acknowledging our need for salvation and accepting the gift which is offered. I worship God BECAUSE I am awed by His grace which is, thankfully, greater than His justness, but my salvation is not nor was it dependent on my worship.




What is it we are missing then?

George Orwell had a classic quote that really relates to this question: "To see what is front of ones' nose , takes constant struggle"

Hindsight is always 20/20, when we reflect apon events everything is always crystal clear, fish don't know they're wet so to speak and most of the time we don't see our present circumstances clearly.

In order to keep up this "constant struggle" I think that we must be truly perceptive of who we are as an individual. This maybe what we are missing. Its almost like we should pull a Super Nanny on ourselves and say"Ok mankind go to the corner for a TimeOut".....self reflection.

Our society and the manner in which it is directionalize has created a total apathy for anything that isn't material or immediate. Alot of the organizational practices in our society create mankind to be some type of celluloide entity that is measured in pixels of animation, creating a counterfeit version of what we are.....We have bought into this in alot of cases.

What we are missing maybe..... is exactly who we are.

I can completely understand that and I miss that "safety net". Now I just have to make the best of everyday >>and go along for "the bumpy ride" (as Bill Hicks described it). I can always change lanes & direction but I can't control the whole road.

I may run out of gas and I may get a flat tire but I can prepare for these. I will eventually crash in due time but I will enjoy the ride as much as possible & keep any passangers (my children,family,hitchhikers) with me, safe, making sure they enjoy the ride also>until they reach their destination.

I so agree Chauncy..very well said...Bravo..


Where does the urge to be fanatically committed come from other than doubt (fear) ..so many can't really convince themselves that what we are doing is 'right' so they overdo ,exaggerate..so many 'shout' as loud as they can so others are sure to hear how they need to convince each other in turn to keep themselves convinced, saying to themselves this must be right if so many others have converted, so if I am a fool then so are they and the circle of delusion spins on...

nothing is certain its all relative that is the essence of Einsteins theory.....to say anything otherwise by default shows ones ignorance... there are no certaintys....only empty promises for which one never has to pay up, only promise, (promises are always meant to be broken it can be no other way) .... perhaps man will see just how frightened he is and the irony its the one's who defend or attack others for being other than insert word.... are often the ones who are the most afraid, because fear always responds with anger .....


Perhaps, you are correct its time we let go of the dogmas and get to what is authentic..this is where ones salvation lives .....

Goosebumps..

To make a point, you missed my point. I was talking about how different people respond to the question, "what is the point/purpose of LIFE evolving/being created in the universe."
Certainly, when it comes to the second question," what is the purpose of individual lives?" your response is a valid one.

However, an atheist is likely to say, in response to the bigger picture, that there is no planned point/ purpose for life in the universe, it is simply an evolutionary progression, with a starting point that, while perhaps inevitable given the nature iof matter and life, was really quite random/accidental,given our present scientific understanding.

A philosopher may give a convoluted answer which breaks down to; because it did/could.

Ps, and this is not a criticism, I think you may be a liitle pessimistic. While a few random events may be outside our control, we control the vast majority of outcomes in our lives, or at least have a very significant influence on them. Some of the biggies are, of course, impt, such as where we happen to be born, but even risks like cancer can be reduced by lifestyle choices.

When I was 10 years old, I decided I wanted to be a teacher. I am not the most natural teacher, being short and quiet, but I persevered and after another 10 years achieved my goal.

Of course that opened up a whole new set of purposes for me.

Likewise, when very young, I made a list of all the things I wanted to do, including owning my own house and getting married. The list also included more youthful ambitions like snow and watersking, ice skating, parachuting etc.

I achieved all of them, except for one biggie, having kids, so i know what you mean about not having control of everything. We were not able to have kids. However, we were offered a surrogacy, or we could have adopted, if the need had been that great. Instead, we have been able to focus a lot of our energies on our relationship over 30 years, which may have contributed to its quality and length of duration. Even here, you can change the nature and form of a relationship with education/knowledge, personal discipline and practice.

On the other hand your point about controlling our responses is a critical one. Sometimes one has to accept another reality, but sometimes it just requires a bit more grit and determination, or else a more lateral approach to the problem.

I remember, when starting high school, I was asked in class by the teacher, "what do you most fear?" Foolishly, I said, "nothing" and for all that year, had my classmates try to scare me. What I should have said is that while I felt fear, i refused to let it control me. I chose another emotion than fear. Sometimes it was anger, sometimes compassion, sometimes curiousity. All can be used to overcome fear, by translating it into something else.
My greatest fear, since a disasterous pantomine when I was about 6, has been performing or speaking in public. And yet I teach for a living and love it. I turned one response into its complete opposite.

Mr. W. there is no purpose to life..If there is you aren't living......You are following at best which is really the same as not living at all ..many waste their lives..Many you would be shocked at how ,many... Hint you are not the lables that define you either...

if i asked you what do you do what would you say???

[/quote]

'Mr Walker' date='Dec 26 2007, 06:52 PM' post='2059153']
To make a point, you missed my point. I was talking about how different people respond to the question, "what is the point/purpose of LIFE evolving/being created in the universe."
Certainly, when it comes to the second question," what is the purpose of individual lives?" your response is a valid one.

However, an atheist is likely to say, in response to the bigger picture, that there is no planned point/ purpose for life in the universe, it is simply an evolutionary progression, with a starting point that, while perhaps inevitable given the nature iof matter and life, was really quite random/accidental,given our present scientific understanding. [/quote]

but to evolve is a point itself. as to purpose . even worms have one. the enrich the ground that is benificial to plants and people. truely the only thing on earth with out a purpose is man. we contribute nothing. At one time we were food , but no longer. if you want to look at it in black and white. While I believe in God I can't disqualify someones answers because they don't . Plenty of purpose filled lives are lived with out a belief in God. Just as plenty of lives are seemingly aimless that do believe. Definition of purpose I think also needs to be reviewed.

( I personally don't believe we create our own purpose , that God does as part of the path we are on. But that path can change on a dime . I had gotten quite ill 6 months before completing my second degree. so ill I can't use the education anymore , but while I was studing I thought I knew my purpose seeing how much education I put in it. But life/God has a funny way of changing the best hard worked plans. --------- the only thing I could control was my reaction to it all. So where you see it as it being by your own self your purpose came about I see it as a path laid for you which can change in the blink of an eye.)


[/quote] A philosopher may give a convoluted answer which breaks down to; because it did/could.

Ps, and this is not a criticism, I think you may be a liitle pessimistic. While a few random events may be outside our control, we control the vast majority of outcomes in our lives, or at least have a very significant influence on them. Some of the biggies are, of course, impt, such as where we happen to be born, but even risks like cancer can be reduced by lifestyle choices. [/quote]

I beg to differ. Ask anyone if thier lives have gone according to plan. children when they planned it , careers gone as planned , where they live , how they envisioned thier lives , who thier spouses are , ect............... one change in an outside influence changes our direction . you wanted to be a teacher and are. Did finances determine where you went to school ? How about where you work ? Your students impact on how you teach ?Do you have the same zeal for teaching as you did before you became one or compared to your first year? a multitude of variations that shaped your decisions that sometimes are exteamly small. no one's life is exactly as they planned it -- and all they can really control is thier response to it.

[/quote]
When I was 10 years old, I decided I wanted to be a teacher. I am not the most natural teacher, being short and quiet, but I persevered and after another 10 years achieved my goal.

Of course that opened up a whole new set of purposes for me.

Likewise, when very young, I made a list of all the things I wanted to do, including owning my own house and getting married. The list also included more youthful ambitions like snow and watersking, ice skating, parachuting etc.

I achieved all of them, except for one biggie, having kids, so i know what you mean about not having control of everything. We were not able to have kids. However, we were offered a surrogacy, or we could have adopted, if the need had been that great. Instead, we have been able to focus a lot of our energies on our relationship over 30 years, which may have contributed to its quality and length of duration. Even here, you can change the nature and form of a relationship with education/knowledge, personal discipline and practice.

On the other hand your point about controlling our responses is a critical one. Sometimes one has to accept another reality, but sometimes it just requires a bit more grit and determination, or else a more lateral approach to the problem.[/quote]

sometimes you have to deal with the cards delt. even our best laid plans can scatter at the slighest change.

[/quote]
I remember, when starting high school, I was asked in class by the teacher, "what do you most fear?" Foolishly, I said, "nothing" and for all that year, had my classmates try to scare me. What I should have said is that while I felt fear, i refused to let it control me. I chose another emotion than fear. Sometimes it was anger, sometimes compassion, sometimes curiousity. All can be used to overcome fear, by translating it into something else.
My greatest fear, since a disasterous pantomine when I was about 6, has been performing or speaking in public. And yet I teach for a living and love it. I turned one response into its complete opposite.
[/quote]


fear is a reaction . we do have control absolute over our reactions.

that's a good one - how many define ourselves by what we do , who were married too , not married , how much money we have . what God we worship .

but take all that away and who are we ? how do we define ourselves ?

Supra Sheri


Lables shouldn't define us, if they do then we've allowed them to for lack of a true identity. We all fall into this more often then not without realizing it or without appreciating the harm in it. I suppose that the more we let lables define us the more distant we become from our original selves.

We as individuals should not be the corporate logos that adorn our garb......but we are the ones who buy them. We are not the numbers in our bank statement....but we are the ones who count them. We are not the models on the runway nor the celebrities on the red carpet......but we are the ones who venerate them.

The reason IMO that we are looking at a complete paradox of what is, and what some of us feel in our hearts should be, is as a result of generations of conditioning and desensitization to what life once was .

Who knows when it started but I would be more apt to believe that it had something to do with profit generation. When the rulers of society realized what a pure resource mankind was, when the first machines were created and the first "widgets" had a need to be mass produced, the resource of manpower was called into action.

Just like herding and cultivating chickens in mass quantities to feed the demand, so was mankind. In order to keep the industrial machine pumping out products, the social tempo took a different turn, a turn towards apathy for what really mattered.

Our environment has been changed into an atmosphere where there is no need to contemplate, philosophise or discover an inner self. Instead we were given jobs to do, houses to buy, taxes to pay, families to rear, plasticine formed answers to our questions and eventually reasons not to ask them......and now on the nightly news and on the magazine covers we are given things to care about, and things to fear.

It kinda seems the we are and have been for generations pacified to prevent us from discovering and to prevent us from uniting under mass realization.

Interesting. But the thing is if we are all here for no reason, other than because we are and we feel a sense of purpose for no better reason than because we just do, this then means that sociopaths are right. There is no reason why I should care about anyone else, other than because I want to, and if tomorrow I want to walk away from a 20 year marriage and my children, then that's OK too, because there is no value to anything other than what we have indiscriminately given it.

This is no way intended to mean that I think you are a sociopath or that you have no sense of morals, this is simply intended to point out how I see this in general. I doubt that anyone who really thinks like that would be honest enough to admit it, since they also would see no reason for being honest.

Not sure where you equated whith my post that we are all here for no reason, but since we are on the topic all i can offer is my opinion.

We all have our own reasons for keepin on keepin on, what you decide is your reason is your reason.



Well there is a very good reason why we care about others and a very good reason why we try to do good and try to be honest......its because these are reciprocated . When you love, you are loved, when you care, you are cared for, these things are equally reciprocated in the opposite fashion.

So instinctively we do unto other as we would have them do unto us.....not because it is written but because it is reciprocated in this fashion. In the same fashion nobody wants to be raped, killed, or stolen from and this is why we support laws that attempt to prevent this.

And you obviously haven't left your wife and kids after 20 years for the distinct reason that you love them and it makles you happy to be in that situation for you they are your purpose.

As is often the case supra my logic set does not relate to your logic set and thus I have great difficulty comprehending what you are saying.

"there is no purpose to life" well I just said that certain groups of people hold to that viewpoint

"If there is a purpose then you are not living." This does not make sense, although I can accept it as an illogical viewpoint.

" you are following (i presume a purpose) which is really not the same as living at all." I beg to differ. Apart from the "dice man," every sentient being follows a purpose (i will except the insane from this as they are not truly sentient) The only choice we have is whether we live following our own purpose or someone elses. I may be wrong , but I cannot conceive of a person who lives one day, let alone a life, without a purpose, even if that purpose is simply survival.

I know i'm not the labels which others place on me , and I have no self imposed labels, although maybe Im sort of a generic brand of humanity.

If you ask me what I do, I would say that I play my game of life. I play it by my own rules. I can create and change these rules as I like (I see calvin ball as an excellent metaphor for my life) Within that game I do many things for many purposes; sheer joy, self development, helping others. I study myself, humanity and the universe, constantly hoping to make incremental improvements in my knowledge of all these things. I teach, entertain, and amuse others. Sometimes I annoy and frustrate others. So really I do what most people do.

I really get the impression sometimes by reading these posts that alot of believers (not all now) would be & act like sociopaths if they didn't have the "fear of god" put into them. I have seen this through experience once in a while.

It's like my friend bragging about how she sendsher kids to church,hinting around I should be a good,god fearing mother & do the same.

I said bluntly, "Yeah,well your kids need it !" (and they did,believe me). She just blinked in shock at me.

My kids are very freethinking, caring & mannerful kids. They see the logic in being this way without fear or coersion. I am their GOD............Muhaha !!! just kidding


If they screw up, I tell them to GO TO HELL but I don't send them there, just kidding again I'm their parent & best friend-you can be both-but you all know this ,right ?

Lt ripley thank you for another thoughtful and detailed analysis of my post. I agree with a lot of what you say but perhaps have a different slant/perspective /emphasis on some viewpoints. For example, I would say that worms do not have a purpose, because purpose implies intent. We attribute the worms role as a purpose, but the worm cannot. It is simply an evolutionary response/fact of life. The worm cannot chose any other "purpose". Only sentient self aware beings can do this. Thus the worm has a role, but only a human can create a purpose.(I appreciate this may be playing semantics,) but only through understanding my definition of purpose, can you understand my viewpoint on it.



This passage illustrates our different perspectives on life, which I am sure we have both come to honestly, and for each of us are equally valid. We, perhaps, cannot accept each other's viewpoints because our life experiences (which create our viewpoints )have been different.

As stated before, i do plan and visualise my life. As with sports training, this increases the possibility of successfully acheiving your goals. Sometimes one is smitten from left field. I never intended to fall in love with a first cousin, who was nearly 10 years older than me. Once this happened it required some radical readjustments of family and social values/ expectations. But we worked on this and achieved it.

My family was very poor. I gained an education dept scholarship for my last 3 years of high school and got to uni because i was bonded to the ed dept. This meant they paid my uni expenses, but I had to work anywhere they choose for my first four years. Every day, of every holiday, I worked as a cleaner and groundsman at my high school from the age of 13 to 17 This gave me a look at another aspect of life, a number of different skills, and an appreciation for the value of hard physical work. All my pay was divided between my parents, to help out, and a bank account for when I went 400 miles away to uni and teachers college.

I still have the same zeal for teaching. Given that I have to retire in a few years, i have already said to the principal that I would like to come back and teach on a voluntary basis.

I accept that life can make minor variations in your plans and purposes, but my experience is that we are indeed masters of our own fates and that every decision we make, large or small, leads us towards, or away, from that goal/purpose. If we understand our purpose, and the right decisions required, we can acheive the great majority of anything we set out to do. Being poor might make it harder, coming fom an african or south american country harder still, but no one should simply give up because it is too hard, or because they believe their fate/future is in any way predestined.

so we will have to agree to disagree.

yet purpose doesn't always come with intent. I became an artist with intent , but I didn't pull that purpose out of a hat , I was always gifted and not by my own doing. it was natural to me.

you may not think a worm has purpose , but they enrich the earth with thier waste. without them we'd starve.

The major benefits of earthworm activities to soil fertility can be summarized as:

Biological. The earthworm is essential to composting; the process of converting dead organic matter into rich humus, a medium vital to the growth of healthy plants, and thus ensuring the continuance of the cycle of fertility. This is achieved by the worm's actions of pulling down below any organic matter deposited on the soil surface (eg, leaf fall, manure, etc) either for food or when it needs to plug its burrow. Once in the burrow, the worm will shred the leaf and partially digest it, then mingle it with the earth by saturating it with intestinal secretions. Worm casts (see below) can contain 40% more humus than the top 6" of soil in which the worm is living.
Chemical. As well as dead organic matter, the earthworm also ingests any other soil particles that are small enough—including stones up to 1/20 of an inch (1.25mm) across—into its 'crop' wherein minute fragments of grit grind everything into a fine paste which is then digested in the stomach. When the worm excretes this in the form of casts which are deposited on the surface or deeper in the soil, a perfectly balanced selection of minerals and plant nutrients is made available in an accessible form. Investigations in the US show that fresh earthworm casts are 5 times richer in available nitrogen, 7 times richer in available phosphates and 11 times richer in available potash than the surrounding upper 6 inches (150 mm) of soil. In conditions where there is plenty of available humus, the weight of casts produced may be greater than 4.5 kg (10 lb) per worm per year, in itself an indicator of why it pays the gardener or farmer to keep worm populations high.
Physical. By its burrowing actions, the earthworm is of great value in keeping the soil structure open, creating a multitude of channels which allow the processes of both aeration and drainage to occur. Permaculture co-founder Bill Mollison points out that by sliding in their tunnels, earthworms "act as an innumerable army of pistons pumping air in and out of the soils on a 24 hour cycle (more rapidly at night)" [2]. Thus the earthworm not only creates passages for air and water to traverse, but is itself a vital component in the living biosystem that is healthy soil.
See Bioturbation.

The earthworm's existence can not be taken for granted. Dr. W. E. Shewell Cooper observed "tremendous numerical differences between adjacent gardens" (Soil, Humus And Health), and worm populations are affected by a host of environmental factors, many of which can be influenced by good management practices on the part of the gardener or farmer.

Darwin estimated that arable land contains up to 53,000 worms per acre (13/m²), but more recent research from Rothamsted Experimental Station has produced figures suggesting that even poor soil may support 250,000/acre (62/m²), whilst rich fertile farmland may have up to 1,750,000/acre (432/m²), meaning that the weight of earthworms beneath the farmer's soil could be greater than that of his livestock upon its surface. One thing is certain however: rich, fertile soil that is cared for organically and well-fed and husbanded by its steward will reap its reward in a healthy worm population, whilst denuded, overworked, and eroded land will almost certainly contain fewer, scrawny, undernourished specimens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthworm#Benefits

yet it has no intent. as someone once said to me about one of the panhandelers off our freeway ( she was a known junkie) ' even she has a purpose . it may be to keep someone off drugs as an example.' I hadn't thought of that before.

I concur in so much that there are examples , indeed varying degrees, for the need of set guidlines and courses of action that some people need to adhere as to prevent confusion or disorientation whilst cruising through life.

Possibly there are two types of people( I'm sure theres more) where as one type does not want or fears questions without answers when it comes to the nature of being or the "Point to Life".

That to have a query that has no answer causes chaos whithin the mind. When faced with anything but absolutes: distress, or angst, ensues. This when they become embedded into something that offers answers that suffice, as to prevent the need for contemplation. These people require something to grasp ahold in order to stay afloat while adrift in the seas of life.

Quite possibly the other types of people are well aware that there are no absolutes as of yet. To ponder, reflect and contemplate the nature of being or the "Point to Life" is exactly what needs to be done. These people are perfectly comfortable in uncertainties because no matter how chaotic things become, no matter how high the tides of perplexity become there is one thing that remains constant and afixed, and thats the knowledge and confidence in who you are as an individual.

Now that is the "gourmet" version of food for thought. Thankyou

We're still personalizing it too much. I am not talking about me specifically, I was making a point as a human, not as myself. What I am trying to point out is that as humans, whether there is a reason outside of ourselves or not, we give ourselves a reason for our lives. THAT, the fact that we NEED a reason for our lives, I think points to an inherent understanding that there IS a purpose.


This is as ridiculous as saying that atheists don't have morals because they don't believe in God.

What of people like me who neither need a purpose nor think there is one? That's a rather subjective reality on both sides.

A purpose sure, for a reason probably.


Why though when we talk along the lines of "a purpose to life" we are talking about the whole of one's life and a single purpose? This seems to me a little too diametric to the nature of humankind.

What,IMO, seems a more accurate depiction of purpose is actually a pluralized notion of purpose or purposes. Where as one's purpose is ever changing depending on the situation. That to recognize a purpose and reason then to fullfill it and move on is more congruent to what we see in life.

IMO, your purpose can change any given moment, a fleeting purpose or nomadic if you will. does there need to be one singular purpose to blanket all of one's life?

I also believe that like in the example of being married for20 yrs and having children and not leaving them because they become your purpose, may not be so accurate. Where as in this example maintaining that relationship ceases to be a purpose and then becomes an everlasting code of honor as apposed to a purpose.......a matter of semantics I suppose.

First of all, I never said "all" .

But yes it is a FACT , that many I know before religion were on drugs or alcohol, took part in dangerous sexual behaviors, criminal activities etc. and it took faith in god before they finally pulled their head out of their.........(fill in blank). Maybe they just needed psychological counseling /rehab but that isn't free in the US like it is here in europe> but church & god are free.
That may explain why so many turn to god in the US. If they live better & smarter then that is a good thing.

better god than drug addictions etc.

It is by no means always a bad thing !

If we knew each other personally we could discuss these people right now.

I think we're exploring different facets of this question Chauncy, and I don't think I have done a good job of expressing myself correctly. See, to me this question has a much deeper meaning. It's not simply what is the point to MY life? it's a question that humanity asks: "What is the point of the existence of humanity?" Not simply why are we alive? But why do we reason? Why do we struggle to understand? Why do we ask questions we can't possibly answer? Why do we seek a purpose?

These are questions that although we can all sit here and give answers that sound definitive and may even be definitive for the one answering, are not really so, because we continue to ask them.

I come in search of answers Iamson, I didn't bring them. the course of discussion is a great manner to openly attempt a sorting of thoughts.

What do you think Iamson, in regards to "What is the point of the existence of humanity?"

I would think saying that we NEED a purpose would point to a rather fragile ego rather than any inherent understanding there must be some purpose. I'm speaking generally, of course, not about individuals. If humanity needs a purpose to our lives it is because of our sense of self-importance.

My purpose to living, simply to be the best person I can be. I have reward enough from those around me whom I love and who love me and need no 'security blanket' of some after-life reward to feel content about life.

As for the purpose to life, that being why life exists. We are only asking this question because life exists. There is no purpose to 'life', it exists or it doesn't. Luckily enough for us, it does!

I agree with you that there are my points, but i think there is one main point/purpose. I think the main point or purpose of humanity is to provide trained and willing partners to God.