What we do does affect someone else and so forth God gave us the will to choose our path so it can't be planned unless God knows ahead of time every single decision we will make before we do. But that would take away our free will if God knew and planned everything we decided to choose. I tend to think God knows us and we have a path true but we with our prayers and own will can change our path. Of course thats saying well you say God knows all, Why wouldn't he know your choices and will? I have confused myself , funny uh, Anyway I thought I knew the answer but I will have to think about it , Always a pleasure

Kudus on a very vague response.

Perhaps the fault lies in the question.
Let me try again.

Do you believe that your god gave you free will to either believe or not believe in its existence?
Do you believe that your god allows you to make a choice in this matter?

Ido.

Is this a trick question?

Love Omnaka

Not a trick at all Omnaka.

If a person gives you a choice ( say, pick 'A' or 'B'), then gets mad if you don't pick what THEY wanted you to pick, it is not a choice.

A true god would not offer a choice with a caveat.
Hey you can picke either, just remember if you choose not to worship me, then its curtains for you"

Not really a free choice is it?

It would be like me telling my daughter "Hey you can out with your friends, or stay here and help me. But, if you go with your friends today, you're grounded for next week"

Not a choice.

Kudus on a very vague response.

Perhaps the fault lies in the question.
Let me try again.

Do you believe that your god gave you free will to either believe or not believe in its existence?
Do you believe that your god allows you to make a choice in this matter?

Ido.

Is this a trick question?

Love Omnaka





I totally agree with your view.

Love Omnaka

Oh but there is a choice she still can choose to stay or go, If she goes she must pay the consequence, Always a pleasure

Come on choaszerg, you know I am right everyone has choices Always a pleasure

What happens to the tribe in jungle somewhere that has never heard the word of god? Will they be condemed to hell, since most christians believe that you have to accept christ to get into heaven. If thats the case, then that is not a god I want to worship.

Why even give the choice then , why not just say No you can not go out, instead of Telling her she has Freewill making her Feel bad about her decision, and punishing her for It?

Thats the sort of thing which makes Kids run away, IMO.

Love Omnaka

It is not much of a choice if the threat of a firey burning pit is what you recieve if you do not choose the other one.


God is not all loving if he has to give two options


A = Accept him and worship him and kiss his feet forever

B = Do not accept God and burn for eternity


Option B is to scare you into accepting option A.

So how can you see God as all loving if he has to burn you if you choose not to accept him.

I am sure all those burning in hell (if it is real) writhing in pain and suffering are comforted to know that God loves them very.... very much.

To give a person a choice, and then tell them their are consquences if they choose incorrectly, according to your wishes, is NOT a choice.

Are there consequences possible when making a choice? Of course.

But, for a deity to supposedly give its creations intelligence, reasoning, and 'free will', and then punish them because they exercised those rights is vindictive, immature, and somewhat anal.
A classic example of a control freak. "Do what I want or there will be problems. AND IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT!!!!"


But if that is what brings you comfort, who am I to argue? Just don't be surprised when others don't see it the same as you.

You forgot C, THat God does love all unconditionally, and sends no one to hell, That Hell is Man made consequense of his own Freewill of how he Loves God and The rest, an acountability To himself.

Talk about shifting Blame, Blaming God for how one acts and loves his bro only hurts the one who believes this way when he finds it is not true and God loves all Unconditionally, after acusing God One will consciously put himself In a State Of hell, as a self inflicfted Punishment for acusing the only one who truly loves him Unconditionally.

So I do hope your Idea of hell is not too awful. One will make his own punishment.

Love Omnaka

I am not going to give you classic God loves us all and does not punish us. Or God creation Gods rules Gods decision. If I show you some art work and try and conveince you there was no artist, I will just say I think all the answers we seek will be evident when were ready. Always a pleasure Jmpd

God only holds us accountable of our sins, So the tribe thats never heard of God are the same as children. This is what I understand from the bible, Always a pleasure

But he does punish us don't he when he has a hissy fit when something does not go his way?



So are we supposed to just sit back and like it and love him when he does bad things?




I think that is dodging the question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qsFpZ4b47A

Have "groovy " Day

How much do you have to hear to be regarded as rejecting God?

The answer is I honestly don't know, I will see if I can find out, Always a pleasure

So is it fair to say that those who engage in missionary work, are thereby damning those innocents to the christian hell?

Missionary #1: "Hey, you know, there is a tribe in the Amazon who never heard about Jesus! That means they will not go to hell for their sins! Lets go spread the word and really feck them up!"

Missionary #2: "Let's do it!"

Thats not what many christians believe. They believe its all or nothing. A god that would damn people to eternal punishment for not worshiping him is not only a egomaniac but just plain cruel.

It is not the case, Jesus saves by contemplating his teachings, not buy judging anyone. and He is not God of this world, Our father , and Mother of uor eternal spirit is God of this world, and it is understandable that the native does not Know this blasphemy, It is a blessing By our Father who art in Heaven. Jesus knows he is not God, And is probably happy as well they did not understand the missionarys words. They did not have to eat him though.

Maybe they did misunderstand A part of the Message And ate the cracker, and drank his blood. Joke Joke , Im a kidder sometimes

Love Omnaka

Yeah point taken , Your too funny Jmpd. I don't know the correct answer I can give my opinion but I really don't know why God does anything. I just have faith that its the right thing, Always a pleasure
Maybe Omnaka is here

Again is it really a option if God says:



Option A : Love me and accept me and live a good life and you can go to a happy place like this.



Or

Option B : If you refuse to accept me but try and live a good life anyway you will Burn in Hell with some horrible creatures for eternity like this.

According to what I know and believe, Yes You got it right Chaoszerg. Please don't anyone assume I am damning you to hell Though. God is the creator so in my opinion God can ask us to do anything God wants. Anything, I am not saying that its not maybe cruel and all just that its Gods decisions not mine, Always a pleasure

You assume You are corect in God's judgement of Man, if you are wrong You will feel bad for Judging God.

Love Omnaka

I am not judging God I only know what the bible tells me, I know we disagree on this and thats okay, We can agree on more than we disagree on Always a pleasure

I would be a Monster if I Threw my daughter In to a closet for ever with no water or food Bound in Darkness.

So would God, But because God does not do this, Any one who does call God on this horible act which he does not do is Judging what they do not Know, and acusing God of being that monster.

Does this make sense to you?

Love Omnaka

I think that Hell would be a place where a soul goes with the absence of God and that would be the torment. Whereas in Heaven you are with God and therefore in joy.

Atheists would be fine then.

I guess that would depend On what the missionaries were teaching , But IMO, That sounds about right, They dont Know what they are doing,

I dont think most of them mean bad, and their hearts are trying to do good.
.


Love Omnaka

.......................<<>> Thomas Pain was born at Thedford, England, in 1737. He is widely known by his connection with the American and French revolutions and by his infidel writings. During the session of the French Convention, Paine compose his infidel works, "Age of Reason," by which his name gained an unenviable notoriety, and after the alteration of political circumstances in France he returned to America and there dragged out a miserable existence, indented in his last illness for acts of charity to disciples of the religion that he had opposed. Bishop Fenwick says: A short time before Paine died I was sent for by him. A decent elderly looking woman showed us into the parlor. 'Gentlemen,' said the lady, 'I really wish you may succeed with Mr. Paine, for he is laboring under great distress of mind, ever since he was told by his physician that he cannot possibly live and must die shortly. He is truly to be pitied. His cries, when left alone, are heart-rending. "O Lord, help me!" he will exclaim during his paroxysms of distress; "God help me!" Jesus Christ,help me!"-- repeating theses expressions in a tone of voice that would alarm the house. Sometimes he will say, "O, God! What have I done to suffer so much?" Then shortly after, "but there is no God"; and then again, "Yet, if there be, what would become of me hereafter?" Thus he will continue for some time, when all of a sudden he will scream as if in terror and agony, and call for me by name. On one occasion I inquired what he wanted. "Stay with me," he replied, "for God's sake! for i cannot bear to be left alone." Then said he, when I told him I could not always be in the room, "Send even a child to stay with me, for it is hell to be left alone." I never saw a more unhappy, a more forsaken man." Among the last utterances that fell upon the ears of the attendants of this dying infidel, and which have been recorded in history. were the words, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" This is a true story of a unsaved dieing man that opposed the (Gospel of Jesus Christ) You can find this story in (God's Plan for Man) By Author Rev. Finis Jennings Dake. This book is used in Christian Colleges. You will find it in Lesson Thirty-Seven Page 732. Testimonies of Dying Infidels and Wicked Men. #(3) Thomas Paine............

really.

Any sources for that parable of yours?

...............................Very simple go to any web site like Google,yahoo and so on. Just type in Thomas Paine there is a lot a material on him. He was really against the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He picked apart the belittled the Old Testament and the New Testament. And he was a very evil man.

Exactly. It's NOT a choice, it's do or die TYRANNY & bullying ....which is not freedom not alone freedom of choice.

It's blackmail & coersion,any psychologist knows this. The whole CON-cept of this supposed love is extremely perverted

Are you going to pick eternal hell or worship god ? If you believe> you will worship of course (out of fear). God shot himself in his big stomping foot with that one,by the way.

That is straight out coersion & force.

We have an "avoid pain instinct' BIG time and god knows it, how much more manipulative & cruel can a "loving" god be ?

Love is "honey keep your room clean and do your sincere best to try and get good grades this year, and then you can go on that trip to Italy as I promised, if not you must stay here for the summer, oh and by the way I love you honey so much !

Love is NOT "you better keep that room clean and you better get all A's & B's or else I'll lock you up with those rapists, sodomizers & sadists FOREVER that I keep in our basement downstairs>just to keep you in line with your disgusting sinful nature, it's your choice, don't say I didn't warn you, oh yeah I forgot I love you pumpkin, and don't forget I'm watching you every second, and you know I kinda sacrificed your perfect brother once,the things I do for you, huh ? Otherwise you wouldn't even have a chance of making it to Italy !! " Now get down on your knees..............


Now could you love a mother that's like that ? honestly !

I think you'd choose mom Nr.1 I'd think you'd feel great love & respect for her and would be EAGER TO PLEASE because she wants your best and is not cruel & vindictive

I would like to have your source/reference that you just posted about Thomas Paine above, you are supposed to do this on this forum,thanks


* (sorry Jmpd, I see you beat me to it)

.................... The quote on Thomas Paine can also be found in (God's Plan for Man) by Rev.Finis Jennings Dake. This book is a 52 week study one Lesson per week. This is one of the books they use in Christian Colleges. The reference on Thomas Paine, you will find in lesson thirty-seven. Page 732. Testimonies of Dying Infidels and Wicked Men. #(3) Thomas Paine. If your like me. This is a very good book to study.

I don't think that the spiritual absence of God for eternity is that harsh of a deal for a lifetime of denying God. I think that it is Just.

Fenwick's account about the death of Paine has been shopped around for a long time. Other witnesses say Paine died differently.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical...omas_paine.html

Everything being Relative, If one does not Like God, or Gods Love, Then being apart from this Love is not a punishment, It is the un believers Wil to be apart. God forces His love on No one.

He ( Unloving son) Gets exactly what he wants. This could be heaven to one who likes the dark.

Love Omnaka

I get what your saying, but wouldn't it be like one of those "be careful what you wish for things" because in this life we cannot be without God, only choose not to acknowledge him. and then after a lifetime of slaps in the face he goes
"Ok kiddo, if this is what you really want, here you go. and in the actual absence of God you would actually notice the Hell you chose.

Finis Dake ,huh ? Yeah what a great guy & role model he was. He's a pentecastol evangeslist (this religion is on my poop list,sorry). He believed in the segregation of races,also. Not my type of guy that I would trust. God did not answer his prayers & cure his Parkinson's disease either which he died of.


During Dake’s ministry in Zion, he was the center of a controversy. In 1937, he was convicted of violating the Mann Act by willfully transporting 16-year-old hitchhiker Emma Barelli across the Wisconsin state line “for the purpose of debauchery and other immoral practices.” Dake pleaded guilty and was sentenced to six months in a Milwaukee jail. Though he maintained his innocence of intent, Dake subsequently lost ordination with the Assemblies of God."The May 27, 1936, issue of the Chicago Daily Tribune
reported that `An indictment, returned last February in Milwaukee
charges that on April 23, 1935, Dake took Emma Barelli, 16 years
old, of Kenosha, from her home town to East St. Louis for immoral
purposes.' (pg. 1). The following day, the newspaper reported that
Dake registered at hotels in Waukegan, Bloomington, and East St.
Louis with the girl under the name Christian Anderson and wife.
Dake, according to government investigators, said he picked the girl
up as she was hitchhiking and she insisted he drive her to East St.
Louis, where he was to deliver Bible lectures in nearby
communities. Dake denied that any immoral action had taken place,
claiming, `I did take her there . . .but there was no immorality
involved. I wanted to get her a job.' (Chicago Daily Tribune, May
28, 1936, pg. 17).

"When Dake came to trial in February 1937, he placed himself
on the mercy of the court by entering a plea of guilty to the charge
of violating the Mann Act. He was sentenced to a six-month stay in
the House of Corrections in Milwaukee. Dake admitted to
having `petting parties' with the girl, but again denied any
improper relations had occurred between him and the girl. The
Waukegan News-Sun reported, `Had he been found guilty by a trial
jury, Rev. Dake would have been subject to a maximum sentence of 10
years in a federal prison and a fine of $10,000.' (Feb. 10,
1937). Dake called the jail sentence a `vacation' and said he
would use his incarceration as an opportunity to preach to the
prisoners and devote time to writing a commentary on the Bible.


In spite of the critics his influence among contemporary Charismatic and Pentecostal should not been underestimated. Popular televangelist Benny Hinn has credited Finis Dake with helping to mold his theological beliefs.(yipee !!)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finis_Dake



http://pinoyatheist2000.blogspot.com/2005_10_01_archive.html

I guess I'm already in hell then because I sense/feel the absence of (that) god.

me too sometimes. but then it is usually because I have separated myself from him with some sort of sin.

Me too. and its great

Yes , but there are many many levels of Heaven and hell, each spirit making his own, However this is not for an eternity, after this world ends, Those who have stuck them selves in hell , will either be reabsorbed back in to the love which created them, or they will be chosen to Try again on another world.

It is not the end yet so there is still time for the one who put himself there To have a change of Heart, and either pull himself Out of his making(Very hard to do) or the love of another will go in braving the dark and minister to him so that he knows he is forgiven, but the real deal is he is the only one who can pull himself out, because he is the only one who puts himself in, His reality Made it (Hell)

Love Omnaka

seems to easy. a way out for everyone. I think that there comes a time that there is no backing up, getting around, or getting out. I think that your fate spiritually and physicially is what you make of it and there is a time that your decisions are final. what good is it to strive for purity, and goodness if by being scandelous and corrupt you can still be given the same fate as long as you take the really really difficult steps at the end?

It truly is that easy, we work on our own love and spirit, with Father (God ) watching and loving us even when we cant love our self. What you speak of Final decisions has no place in eternal Life of an spirit created By an eternal spirit.

The only way out of the book of Life is to ask (Free will) father , and this is done out of love for God's creation.

What one does on the physical plane will afect his conscious heart, Like saying One does not know if there is a God or not, This is no sin, even if one dies thinking this, it is understandable to his eternal spirit because of the Not being able to see Father in the physical, He may feel bad for a Moment then move on.

The one who Damns Father on his death bed, will not be able to forgive himself for this , Making himself a dark place , with his Idea of Hell.
And one's conscious heart has no Body to lie to, there is no Ego.. So this judgement of self, or spirit will be true.

At any time any spirit which God has created can and is forgiven, but once in the place of ones own making , they forget how to ask for help and wallow in their own remorse or pitty. it is truly a sad situation. I pray that those who do this find a way to forgive them self.

To learn to Love with the capeability to forgive can only be learned on Earth, because after , in the spirit realm consciousness takes over, and to forgive ones self is all to hard.

Its like I tell you what I know about God and us , And heaven. It is truly understandable that you do not believe me, so please do not Beat your self up after This life, When it is shown who Iam to God , The universe and You.
It is understandable.

I might feel bad, like I did not do it right, explain it right , making Me apart of your remorse , and I want no regrets after this life.

Ps I do not say this to make my self better than anyone , Iam your brother, I learn as you do while on Earth, Eat sleep , Screw up, Go to work, On earth Iam Just like you.
I share what I know out of Love for you,

Iam Glad I was not given this info at the time of Bro jesus, or I would be strung up right along side.





Love Omnaka

im good. I prefer finality. There need to be consquences for actions. It is the this for the that and the tit for the tat. There is a balence to the universe, and at least on earth for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and I grew up with gravity. If you jump on your bed you will fall. and to me at least that is better. I don't see it the way you do though.