haha the way you wrote that made me choke and cough on my drink

I did not twist his words.

Please send me a link to a video of a "primitive life precursor" originating out of nothing? Thanks.

isn't there something called coascervates? (excuse the phonetic spelling)

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edit: that should be "coacervates"

I think you know I wasn't refering to a simple proto-cell with a lipid shell which can occur through natural chemical arraingments that occur in nature. That's not an issue at all. I was refering to an elephant popping into existance out of thin air. Biological systems overcome moleculer physical breakdown through the intake of energy and specific chemical reactions would not be feasible outside of certain biological environments. That's why biological cellular growth takes place the way it does. First isolating the system then allowing the chemical reactions to start taking place. To bring this all together at once millions of unstable molecules would have to be protected from oxiding factors and such, requiring ridiculous amounts of energy and the the energy release of all these molecular structures being formed at once would be enourmous. The "formation" of a mouse in Times Square would turn Manhattan into a sheet of volcanic glass.

Man, do actually think you're presenting some kind of point when you make such ridiculously foolish requests? Please show me any video of atoms arrainging into molecules. Oh, wait we can't, I guess that means no matter exists. Really, you sound foolish.

It seemed like you were generalizing. There wasn't anything mentioned about proto-cells or elephants.

Anyway please give me a link to a video of a "simple proto-cell with a lipid shell" appearing out of nothing. Thanks.

It's not a foolish request. You and him have both suggested "something coming from nothing" by natural processes. I just want to see a video of this. This isn't unreasonable. I'm sure if it has happened it would have been well documented and video taped by the scientific community. I'll be waiting. Thanks.

Yes, there are a lot of simple, naturally occuring, chemical structures out there that could represent stages of simple biological systems.

Remember that this thread started with the question "is the earth alive"? When you talk about a species popping into existence you're thinking in terms of human time. Assuming that the earth can only be alive if it carries out it's functions in a time which is convenient for humans to perceive seems like an unnecessary limitation.

You'll be waiting forever as "videotaping" atomic activity is impossible. If you had even the most rudimentary understand of anything you try to debate you would know why, but I've come to realize you have no interest in actually learning anything.

I was going to say "Don't hold your breath", but then I started thinking...

What would a videotape, prove WWF? You could claim it was doctored if one existed, so why should videotape be more reliable evidence than a scientific paper?

And I would think that neither cimber nor capeo would be assuming that something can arise from literally nothing, if that is the direction you are trying to take this. So could you please refine your request about what you would like evidence for?

So you're claiming something happened that you've never seen happen?

I'm trying to learn something, but it seems like you're making something up or trying to get me to believe the imagination of others. I'm sorry, but I'm not that gullible.

This is what you sound like to me. "I know stuff can come out of nothing. I've never seen it happen, have no concrete evidence for it, but you should believe me. If not, I'll excuse you of not trying to learn, even though you asked me politely to supply evidence which I could not provide."

So the earth slowly produces all the parts of a mouse then slaps them together. It's skin grows out of the ground over here? It's nervous system over there? Then it just puts it together? Or are you suggesting somwhere a new species of mouse is slowly growing in the ground over millions of years. Being arrainged out of dirt only to finally come to life and climb onto the surface? We'd be digging or finding millions of animals in all states of formation constantly. Or do they come from pods?

That's all I suggested earlier was that "something can't arise from nothing", and this was what they both challenged me on, so I asked them to provide evidence for it.

The earth slowly produces the mouse by rearranging biochemical matter in patterns over millions of years (ie- evolution). The idea would be that the earth was alive and evolution would be a part of it's living processes.

If either of them provided a link to a scientific website, what would I have to gain by saying it was a doctored video? I don't think that argument would hold up and I wouldn't bother with it. I would actually love to see "something come from nothing". I'm hoping one of them will provide the link of what they seem to be suggesting they have had some firsthand knowledge or concrete experience with.

Are you serious? How do you see things at the atomic or molecular level directly? You don't. WWF, you have no clue how chemistry is conducted in any way shape or form do you? You see, in a controlled environment you introduce the chemicals in question. You know what you're starting with. Then you see what you end up with. By the new molecular structures produced and their by products you can tell what took place and it can repeated. Knowing this allows you to design new experiments. That is concrete evidence. It's undeniable, repeatable, factual evidence. You can't videotape atoms. I would expect you are aware this and you just want to keep building your strawman but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you really don't have even a working knowledge of any science.

Well then...

Quantum Fluctuation

It's not a video, but I don't think you'll find one showing this.

Exactly. It's an experiment you can do for yourself, if you have the equipment.

I find it interesting that you can't understand what the original post. So many times with you its as if you take things in the most ludicrous way possible and continue to argue this ridiculous point over and over and over again even though I'm saying "no that's not what I'm saying"


Do you seriously suggest that I am stating that a freaking elephant just fwammo appears on the planet? Are you actually suggesting this. Is this really what your mind understood my point to be?


Let me explain better. As I stated "things grow" to me what is the difference in suggesting that a single celled organism existed on its own or that a "cell" of life occurred with the genetic map of a human being or an elephant already in it.

In other word evolution is really happening as a "niche" or opening. In other words early life forms had the potential to be come human right from the start, the potential to become a whale etc. It was in the code. The code was always there it just unfolded differently.

So rather than suggesting the enviroment and food cycle is what caused evolution I suggest that the genetic map was always in place.

I'm sure I'm not explaining it well but please please stop treating people like they are stupid just because they don't agree with you or think differently than you.

Its tedious already. If you disagree feel free to move on.

He wont, it would require us to be able to keep time itself at an almost still moment and on top of that be able to zoom more in than we was able to this far.

So how do you know "something has come out of nothing at the molecular level". You're claiming knowledge of something that you have never seen happen. Furthermore, you seem to be indicating that it would be impossible to have this knowledge, which makes you sound even sillier. "I know something can come out of nothing at the molecular level, but nobody witnessed it because it's impossible" This is what you're saying by your testimony. I've bolded it above.

I understand chemistry fairly well. I took it in college. Also, I have a degree in science, so you can keep your personal attacks to yourself.

Maybe I'm not following things here, but I don't think anyone's saying that something came out of nothing. Life coming from inanimate particles is not the same thing as something coming from nothing.

http://ool.weizmann.ac.il/Segre_Chemtracts.pdf
http://ool.weizmann.ac.il/Segre_Lipid_World.pdf
http://ool.weizmann.ac.il/Shenhav_BarEven_...ancet_PGARD.pdf
http://ool.weizmann.ac.il/Shenhav_TCSB.pdf

I just described to you a simple experimental setup that is the basis of all chemistry. If you took chemistry in college than you should done this over and over in lab. This is how experiments are done on structures that can't be directly seen by the human eye which is the whole of physics and most of chemistry and molecular biology.

True,

Are you suggesting the 'code' for each species hasn't changed during the evolution from the early life-forms to the later ones?

Capeo and Cimber are suggesting this. I'm suggesting that this is impossible.

Me from post 47 - "Something coming from nothing, or out of nowhere, by natural processes is impossible."

Cimber from post 50 - ...a complete organism cannot come from nothing. Primitive life precursors on the other hand, can originate.

Capeo from post 54 ...a simple proto-cell with a lipid shell which can occur through natural chemical arraingments that occur in nature. That's not an issue at all.

Sorry...duplicate post

Well I definitely won't say these are "doctored videos" because they're not even videos. They're pdf files. lol

That's not nothing. It's the formation of complex molecules in a natural environment and it has been done many times. It's not something coming from nothing it's building blocks that already exist forming more complex structures in a given environment.

The primitive life precursors arise from chemistry that originated. I have said this time and time again. Photon electrons and positrons can appear out of nowhere, exist, then be disapear. Something can come from nothing as long as there is no violation of the conservation laws.

Have we not already established you cannot videotape things on such a scale? You wanted proof of complex structure arising from simple naturally occuring molecules. Those papers outline the experiments and are a good stepping stone to other work as well. It's the proof you wanted in that regard.

The precursors to life originated from molecules that were already present.

I made coacervates in a college biochemistry class. It wasn't a very advanced class and the experiment didn't require an electron microscope. You add the ingredients together in a controlled environment and the next thing you know the lipids clump together in balls. When the balls reach a certain size, they split like amoebas.

Yes I'm exploring that concept.


But not that it hasn't changed but I guess I'm saying that evolution occurs on a code level for its own reasons.

Adaption is fine but I'm saying its possible for an entirely new code to just exist. Mutation coming from the earth itself.

Its hard for me to explain what I mean. But what I mean is that the genetic code is influenced by the earth. Not in a Mother Earth controlling kind of way but more as a biological reaction to the earth itself.

I think your example of bacteria s a good one. Say you get an infection its going to create a different kind of bacteria on your body right?

I really wish that someone could take the time and try to explain this back to me as what I'm saying in scientific terms.

And Capeo and WWF go start your own thread and stop taking mine off topic please.

That's funny coming from you.

Okay, how about you write the steps so we can all do an experiment to make "something come out of nothing"? Please list all the equipment we'll need, the precise steps to take, and what we should all expect to see (or how to be 100% sure that something came out of nothing) when we do this experiment. I'll be waiting for this. Thanks.

Haha is this for real? after 4 pages you still dont get its not recordable by todays technonoly?

No they didn't.

Yes they did.

It's not recordable because there's nothing to record.

BTW, pdf files are text not videos.

Oh, so you've already read those papers? You'd have your experiments there if you wanted to do them. Since you really don't care to actually do any legwork yourself, even when the info is provided for you, then forget it. You're questioning things that are done on a daily basis in schools and labs. This is foolish.

I'm going to honor True's request and stop wasting my time.

Where is your proof of this? Were you there? Did you witness this occurring?

Stop with the personal insults and go start your own thread. There are people who want to discuss my topic and you are all derailing it.

What is so hard about starting your own thread.

I'll do it for you.

Yeah, I didn't figure you would write out that experiment. Thanks for confirming.

No its not recordable because we cant zoom in so deep.

Btw roses are a type of flowers.

see post #84

Please move the discussion here.


http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=115143

You made little balls that split in chemistry class. That's not proof.

Enough with the bickering and personal attacks please, lets keep this civil and on-topic.