Fair enough. But I do want to comment on your question of proving the bible. There is a difference of believing the bible and using either extrabiblical, archeological, etc..evidence to confirm certain claims and you stating that this is true because I believe its true. The argument becomes circular. A circular argument would be me saying that the bible is true because the bible says its true. To avoid that you would use something to compliment your claim that the bible is real (using something other than the bible). What YOU are doing is stating that this and this is true, circularly, and not providing ANYTHING as a basis or measurement for others to use to validate that what your saying is true, or at least seems true. You dont have to provide that proof at all, but as I said, not many in this forum are going to take what your saying seriously without some type of solidified material to back up the claim. I will no longer reply in regards to what we are discussing now. My intentions are not to rail you or your beliefs in anyway, but to impliment proper debate etiquette.

Respectfully,

Hairston

you are beginning to understand what is really going on.

randomhit10

well in order to insight mass deception, you gotta be good, REAL good. and that would logically take quite a build up. my fear is being taken for a ride. I have thought a lot about what I believe, and studied on what I don't believe, though not always to the fullest, therefore I continue to seek answers and my journey of learning goes forward.

You can ask me any question you want, If I tell you God told me , and you are more intrested in Me proving my source than what I share with you,(Content) Then You are corect.
Yes You can judge me, after the book is out The world can judge Me, but I still will have shared what I know,Easing My conscience, and I will probably answer any respectable question.

So far you have asked me Nothing.

And told me all about myself. Thanks for the help, just what I needed. Just what I asked For, Funny I don't feel like I asked for it and as great a sales woman you are, I dont feel like you made me think I did.

Again what I share is just that What you believe is just that.

Love Omnaka

I completely respect your beliefs. I have no way of saying what you believe is false because I have nothing to base that judgement off of, I have nothing to test either. What Im trying to say (though I figure since you said business WOMAN you meant ravergirl, as im a guy) is that its completely possible that your belief is true, but in order to help someone else there would need to be something tangible that solidifies your argument in order for another individual to be convinced that it is true then relying on blind faith alone. And please dont take this as a retort against you as its not. I respect what you believe just as much as I respect an atheist for their position or a muslim for theirs.

Hairston

Well I suppose you could read what I wrote and ask Questions about it. Just an idea.

The ref to Sales woman was from another thread where Rave girl basically said she could sell you anything and make you feel Good about it Or like you asked to have it sold to you.

Love Omnaka

I do not dislike you or disbelieve you.
I have asked you several times if you have something other than your conversations with God to explain your views on reincarnation, the conception of the world and of God, and the multiple worlds that you claimed that there are along with the view point of Adam, moses, and Jesus being brothers in spirit, there being a mother along with the father, and the statement you made about resurrection being common.
If you have no other sources than that one, or no one else that believes as you do, just say that you don't have one or know of anyone else. Do you have any other sources or reasons to believe as you do or other ways for me to explore the theories that you have presented?
You have not answered any of them no matter how many times I have asked, only accused me of judging.

believe what you want, but if you are going to put your views into topics that people care about and shake up their views then you have got to back it up or put a gigantic In My Opinion in front of it.

Please ask me a specific Question, Some of what you just asked I have answered on the new thread I started.
I do not share what I do to shake up anyone.

THe brothers in spirit has been answered on that thread also, but I spose I could go in to more detail if You want, Maybe ask on My thread instead of the apocalypse thread.

When I don't know something, I have no problem saying I dont Know.

Mother is the Holy spirit , Fathers wife, together they are God of this world, they melded and are one in Love and purpose.

We are their spirit children, sent down to experience our eternal spirit, which continues in to Infinity, unless asked to be reabsorbed because the spirit Feels of no use to the Universe, sound familiar.

All very good questions , wrong thread.

Love Omnaka

Mother is Holy Spirit?. This seems to be along the lines of the new age movement. From whence did this information come from omnaka? And because you heart tells you so, doesnt make it so, so dont go there.

Kindly,

Hairston

i didn't say that I said sales is my life and im good at it. I can't sell you anything that you don't already want to buy, I can just make you want to want to buy it, this bridging the gap. on a side note im at a 30% to 35% profit margin in my company on a consistant basis.

Here is a brother from the 1700s who knew Mother is the Holy spirit, but I do not get my info from him, but did find it interesting He knew way back then.

Hope the Link works, His name is zinzindorf

http://www.zinzendorf.com/atwood.htm

Love Omnaka

it is prophecy in the Bible...we are warned that this is coming...stand back an look at some of what is happening in the world especially concerning Jesus and the blanking out of His name...i am not saying that the end is tomorrow...i think we still have a long way from the Biblical end of time but the things that Jesus has spoken of are falling in line...i agree with study...you need to continue to study that by your knowledge will you be able to "see" the false teachers and the deceivers sent into the world to bring whoever they can to their spiritual death...

randomhit10

And true doctrine is the means that we measure the teachings of false teachers. That is how you know the real from the fake.

Kindly,

Hairston

Thank you.
Zinzendorf refers to the Holy Spirit as mother to familiarize the concept in his own mind, since the concept of spirit was too much to accept he refered to it as Mother and refered to Jesus as usband because it humanized the dieties so that he could obtain a personal relationship with them. Which I totall get, I used to call God all kinds of regular names just to make speaking to him seem less foolish, when I first decided I believed.....Is that why you call them that also?



Oh I know. I studied Revelation a few years ago and a few years before that. I will begin again soon, but i wanted some time to go by to that maybe I coud make more sense of the symbolism used.

mhm. totally. measure it.

Mother-http://www.zinzendorf.com/atwood.htm

Love Omnaka

Let me rephrase that. And true doctrine is the means by which we either validate or condemn a specific teaching.

Hairston

No, I call them that because they are the mother and Father of My eternal spirit.

The same reason Brother Jesus Called Father, Father.

Mother was meant to stay hidden in the infancy of this world, so Bro called Her The Holy Spirit.

Love Omnaka

As far as I have seen or read plus what I see now, I am inclined to believe that the way of revelation is how we go out. don't know when or anything else, but i am not ready to accept and turn my head from other knowledge.


Then why would you quote him as a source if his reasoning is not the same as yours. If I wanted the first 5 names that pop up on google I would have googled "holy spirit and mother" and searched myself.

in the infancy of this world people worshipped the Mother as the Creator. not as the Holy Spirit.

You asked For some other believer To what I stated , I already told You I don't get My info from the internet, What I share Is from my conversations with Father. Google away , I don't need to Google , I did that for you so that you could see I'm not the only one who knows this. and even if I were the only one , Thats Ok too.

Again Iam just sharing Info with you. if you don't believe me , That Is understandable, If you like I will just shut up and Leave. being that I have no proof that would ever suit you.

By the way what proof would suit you?

Love Omnaka

so you have never read a book, put together a mish mash of the good ideas of other people religions? You have never read a book? He didn't know what you knew he only CALLED it that to make believing EASIER.

any kind of verifiable information.
a collaboration with someone else, a publication, a movie, a doctrine, a thesis statement, a research group, a social experiment, a christmas card made by someone other than yourself.
I don't care if you shut up or leave. I care that you are trying to make opinions into facts by putting a period at the end of the sentence.

Ok sister I will leave the sentance open, is that 2H

Love Omnaka

that isn't what I meant, and you know it. adding sister to your phrase doesn't make it any less hateful.

Deut.13: 1: If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2: And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3: Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4: Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5: And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.



you are supposed to prove yourself

While I respect your belief that god is talking to you, how is your book going to be evidence of the truth of your claims?
Not trying to be offensive, but just because you write down what "god tells you", does not make it true.
To quote yourself:

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.




in the end of days (if you believe in th biblical apocalypse) will have a lot of false prophets.

Teaching a lot of bunk stuff that sounds really good at first...keep your ears open

James Kelhoffer, an assistant professor of theological studies at Saint Louis University:

"Many people who have interpreted the rich symbolism and mythology of [Revelation] have read into it to reflect on a world cataclysm within their lifetime. It greatly misunderstands ancient Jewish and Christian prophets who always talk about apocalypses within their own time, not several centuries hence.

so it's all bunk.

And everytime this is shown they act like it's not there ?

It's like special eyeware/eyeglasses that filter it out ? Why ? Very creepy........

Not really creepy.
More like very human.

Most people want to believe that they are special ( in a good way).
For believers, what could be more special that being present for "the end times"?

I think there are believers who are freeked out, That they might be on the wrong end of the ol gathering, and they are scared, because of the way it is portrayed in scripture.

Did you get my PM?

Love Omnaka

Yes I did. It was very insightful. Thank you for sharing, and I would like to discuss it further sometime.

Ohh, But thats just his opinion, what makes his opinion more valid than the anyone eles and the bible? I don't know who he is but I can be sure he has no facts to back him up? I can tell you what the bible says and thats not my opinion nor fact according to the skeptics but its fact to alot of people, Always a pleasure

true this is his opinion. ........ but his opinion carries more weight than most of those here by education. and leaving personal feelings and wants of the religon out of viewing it objectively and with knowledge of the culture at the time and how they wrote.

in other words he isn't twisting it to prove anything pro or con.

then . like now , people thought the end times were upon them , not some distant future.

I know people have been predicting the end times forever, But see that doesn't make the bible wrong it just makes the people wrong who predicted it early. I think the bible has alot of signs to come and if they are taken literally they can mean many different things. I don't know how we are supposed to veiw these signs because theres just to many possibilities with each year, Always a pleasure Did you change your sig. On the bottom of your post Ripley , I really like it I havent noticed it before

I somehow agree with your rational weighing, I possessed the same mind set before i was turned to a Christian. Since then I discovered another mindset which might (I say might) weigh the same. While the most important point is, a conflict between the 2 is not necessary, so I want both.

Just like Paul said, we speak spiritually, which by no means says we are not speaking rationally. Things could be spiritual while rational, and that could be just the way out where the truth lies.

The title of the author would indicate that said individual has had years of training and study to acheive his rank, no?

yet he could be rational and a christian. just as the many who are christians , jews and muslims that are scholars and archeologists..

the more neutral you can remain the better scholar you make. to lean to one side or the other is just bias.

Does this apply to religious or other secular scholars that have an even higher rank that are on the opposite side of the road?


Hairston

I agree. As difficult as it is, biases should be left at the door (if even possible). The reason is because history is mainly up for interpretation. The outcome of that interpretation will almost always stem from the bias, whether conscious or unconscious. This is why we have so many disagreements, because history doesnt give us all the answers we need to make a solidified conclusion. So to a degree either position takes a degree of faith, from a historical perspective.

Hairston

Events that were prophesised in the bible are taking place like wars famines plagues and pestilences if you can decipher the book of revelations then I don't need to tell you more

Wars happen all the time.

people have been claiming this long before christainity. Jesus thought as did others at the time it would happen then. Jesus told them it would and it didn't.

yes you are right, but there are some very literal propheies between daniel, isaiah, and revelation and mentions throghout the text of the bible which are not symbolic....when the literal prophesies occur, such as the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of israel convert, people will pay attention...imnot saying it is going to happen soon. im just saing that I think it will happen

war and pestilence has always been going on throughout history in all fairness.

If your referring to matthew 24:34, then it should be made known that generation was a qualitative prejorative term about the rebellious Jewish Leadership. An example of a qualitative idea would be Luke 16:8 and Phil 2:15.

Hairston

I have said it before:

Can't avoid your fate, so why worry about the end when there isn't anything you can do about it.
Can't avoid your death, when your number is up God comes to collect.

"Christianity in the second and third centuries was in a remarkable state of flux. To be sure, at no point in its history has the religion constituted a monolith. But the diverse manifestations of its first three hundred years - whether in terms of social structures, religious practices, or ideologies - have never been replicated. Nowhere is this seen more clearly than in the realm of theology. In the second and third centuries there were, of course, Christians who believed in only one God; others, however, claimed that there were two Gods; yet others subscribed to 30, or 365, or more. Some Christians accepted the Hebrew Scriptures as a revelation of the one true God, the sacred possession of all believers; others claimed that the scriptures had been inspired by an evil deity. Some Christians believed that God had created the world and was soon going to redeem it; others said that God neither had created the world nor had ever had any dealings with it. Some Christians believed that Christ was somehow both a man and God; others said that he was a man, but not God; others claimed that he was God but not a man; others insisted that he was a man who had been temporarily inhabited by God. Some Christians believed that Christ's death had brought about the salvation of the world; others claimed that his death had no bearing on salvation; yet others alleged that he had never even died." ["The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture" pg. 3-4]

A prime example of interpretation of history. You couldnt have posted anything better than this!

Hairston

Edit. I also noticed that this copy and paste job was from Islamic awareness. This book was written by Bart Ehrman of the Jesus seminar. A man who lost his faith a few YEARS AFTER the learning that the bible had variations (and these variations range from ex John or Jon between one manuscript and the other, the dotting of an I, if you will, to changes in wording). Innerancy of scripture is a protective outer shell, which has no basis in salvation (though so many christians think it does!). People throw the baby out with the bathwater when this shell is broken. Its been known for years by scholars that there are variations in the texts, such as spelling a name different or other scribal errors and deliberate changes to better elaborate their message. I do find it EXTREMELY dubious that Bart Ehrman didnt lose his faith while at Moody bible college instead of his later years because he would have known all of these errors in an innerantist college such as Moody Bible College!. Another very strange thing is the fact that Bruce Metzger (One whos faith was INCREASED the more he learned textual criticism, unlike Ehrman) was his mentor!, one of the leading textual scholars of his time, whom he gives great credit for his work!.

my point of all that was there wasn't one creed at the beginning of Christanity. not one belief set until at least 300 hundred years later - and stil it has changed since then ( armageddon didn't take off until the late 1800's).
with such sweeping beliefs how can anyone put any real stock in what is believed now ? The real understanding could have been swept away with a different sect - like with the jews for whom jesus came for instead of what is now Pauline christianity and whom those jews didn't agree with.

I see exactly what your trying to say Ripley. The reason that is so problematic is because these were the MULTIPLE interpretations of the already existing text. Let me just quote what you posted earlier in regards to Ehrmans book. I will put in bold and italics what im referring too. "Some Christians accepted the Hebrew Scriptures as a revelation of the one true God, the sacred possession of all believers; others claimed that the scriptures had been inspired by an evil deity". See this was referring to already written scripture. They were making interpretations out of what the biblical text meant when it said what it said. Technically, though alot of these beliefs and doctrines have been ironed out, we still have all these denominations that believe the text is interpreted a specific way, while other denominations believe the opposite in regards to interpretation. This in no way effects the creed in the 30's AD nor the gospels or epistles (though its still debated on which of these epistles is authentic). All that Ehrman was saying is that the biblical text can appear to carry SO many different meanings, hence all the division in those periods of time. Whats even worse is that we still see this division between denominations here in 2008!. Everyone thinks they are right, but the bible can only mean one thing (this is not an argument on whether it is true or not).

Kindly,

Hairston

So many opinions on Christ and his true purpose, how can one say that christ wasn't there to die for our sins. Didn't his whole life lead up to that moment, I think so. Jesus died for our sins and I don't see how it could be seen any other way, of course I guess there were skeptics back then too. They lived in the time of Jesus so how would skeptics have any doubts though, They would have seen it with their own eyes.So where does the different opinions of Christ and his dying for our sins come in? Always a pleasure