How should it be spent is it just being wasted on things like mega churches? Don't we all slave to pay for our homes already?
There are after all many many potential places to congregate
that do not require any additional debt to the world's banking elite. Times that by 33,000 religions, each with a multitude of temples, synagogues, mosques, halls, churches and there are plenty of widows and orphans going without care and millions of people going to bed hungry and naked.
We were watching HGTV tonight & there is this one Pastor living in a home thats worth over $650.00 is this where the money is going? Why? Doesn't the bible say give up your wordly possesions & follow God? The christian God never said you had to go to church to worship him. Look at the churches that the catholics bulid why all the focus on the bulidings? Where does their God fit into all of this?

Don't simply point this at organized religion. When money goes into any organization, there will be corruption. It simply isn't fair to the churches that are using that money to make a difference. I agree with the point of your post, but I don't think religion is the problem in this case. Humanities greed is the issue here, and our materialistic obsessions.

Very true but it's people that make up the church which gives religions a bad name not just christianty.

You don't have to go to church to worship God, I don't think money and religion really should be put together. I know that it is though and that brings many problems, Our relationship with God has nothing to do with money and shouldn't, Always a pleasure

Many people believe in organized religion. Organized religion requires money. If they are to be given the freedom of religion, churches must have money.

Why have organized religion at all ? I feel spirituality starts from within.

People could be helping others instead of sitting on a church bench,singing & playing "dress up".

By the way I do feel churches have a RIGHT to exist

I think thats where your wrong I agree with momentarylapseofreason you do not need a huge mega dollar buliding to worship in. You should carry your religion in your heart not in some buliding that deflies the land & takes away from nature. Chuches do have a right to exist. I have to wonder if it was right to make them tax free though.

As long as some preachers are building palaces & driving Mercedes from the followers money , NO, they should not be tax free.

Only if they are truly helping those in need (and I don't just mean in need of conversion)

Jesus never intended it to become a money -making machine !

Have you given up all your money and possessions? The Bible does place a heavy emphasis on sharing, but it does not say we must give up everything we own. There will always be individuals who abuse certain things, including money.

The Bible is pretty firm on assembling together to worship. Here's one scripture.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

while I don't see the need for a church . others may feel a need to have a place to congregate for what ever reason.

I guess a minimum of 'dues' should be required. Tents' don't cost much to pitch . someone could donate use of land.

need a building ? how about recycling an old building instead of building new ? have the congregation pitch in their know how. that way it really is their church. and always include a living space for the person doing the preaching.

yes the bills need to be paid. by all means . lights , electricity , gas , water. a stipend for the preacher - no more than minimum wage ever. if he or she needs to travel - coach paid for out of funds. same with health care.

I don't think any religious leader ever needs to make more than minimum wage when the rest of their needs are being met.

every penney ought to be accounted for.

when a church starts making a profit ? they need to pay taxes.

Please allow me to input my two cents....since this is a subject that I am somewhat passionate about:

If people are going to gather together and worship...they want to do it in a comfortable place. Then some want the place to 'glorify God'...so they make it very special with expensive painted glass, etc. Some want to fund missionaries in far away places...others want to 'enhance' the sound capability. All of these things are fine.

But there is something not quite right about it all. Very hard to put the finger on...but I will do my best...

The church doesn't build itself. People have to get together and say...let's put our money together and build a church. Like minded people then go to the church and give the church money. Now, the church will tell it's congregation that it needs money for a 'building fund'. Why does a new church need a building fund??? So they can expand...why do they need to expand??? They will tell you it is because they are spreading the Gospel and the more people they get to come to church...the more people will hear the Gospel and many will be saved and so it's all worth it. This is a lie. All that is necessary to spread the Gospel is for one to open one's mouth and begin speaking to anyone else. It costs nothing.

The church tells us that....it isn't our money anyway...it all belongs to God...

...very important to understand...it isn't YOUR money anyway...huh??? It isn't YOUR money because all we have comes from God...so, it is all His anyway. This is a lie. The Bible illustrates this by telling us that the streets of heaven are paved in gold...our wealth is just so much asphalt to God. Jesus also illustrated the absurdity by saying that the lady who had given 2 cents had given more than all the rich...because she had given all she had.
Was he saying we should give all we have to the church? No. He was illustrating the absurdity of the Church Treasury.

And what is the end result of growing a church? A better show! A choir isn't enough...we need pianos, and guitars, two drum sets, a multi-functional computerized screen with digital sound...and lights...lots of colored lights..spot lights, etc. Now so many people are coming to the show that there isn't room for everyone to park...so we need more parking space...

The end result is a mega-church...it didn't just Happen...it was Planned to happen...by focus groups, by assessing the growth potential of the community.

Church is a business. It just is. It is 'selling' a product. What is the product...God? NO!!!! The product is itself...the church is selling itself!!! If the church is the Bride of Christ....and the Bride is selling herself...what is then she really? She is a whore! The church has become a Whore...prostituting itself in the name of God.

Interesting to me is the fact that you can say anything about...God...and the Churcher's will forgive you...but don't dare blaspheme their holy institution...they will not forgive you for it...because they cannot separate the reality of what church has become from the fantasy they believe it to be.

I agree Ripley with you.

Small churches which used to serve the community are starting to be a thing of the past. These were places that people would go to meet their neighbors (at least once a week) for Sunday services attend weddings/funerals/christenings and were an integral part of the communities life. Small churches used to get what they needed by tithing or donations when something extra was needed (new roof, windows examples) that went beyond the normal running costs of heating, literature etc. the community would pitch in and help plus the 'council' would send aid/money. Now small country churches are in danger as they are being used as the coffers for the mega churches they are the ones that seem to be footing most of the bill while receiving the least support.

I too became extremely disappointed and angry a few years ago when a local church was damaged by a fluke flood (it's known as the 100 year flood) Even though the creek had flooded in the past this was the first time that water had ever been in the building. The church when first built had been a log cabin and was moved 100 years ago to it's present location to keep it out of the flood plain.
They wrote to the council asking for some money (that which they couldn't raise themselves) to repair the small community church and was told that it would be best that it was closed and the members join ranks with one of the of the other churches on the charge. (This church belongs to a four church charge, meaning that they share a minister, with each receiving one sermon a month). So the community raised the money themselves (bake sales and car washes donations etc.) and paid for it. Now most of these people are elderly (which might account for some of the ornery attitude of not wanting to go to a different church) but it also means that they are on a fixed income. Well after the church was repaired and the reason they could go against the 'council' and repair it, the land is not owned by the church but was only lent to the church so long as two stipulations are met, the building or site is never to be used for political campaigning voting or anything to do with politics and as long as active church services are held there, the moment it is used for politics or not used for services it reverts to the land owner. The council had actually stated when they heard that the inside of the church had been damaged wanted to tear down the structure and sell off the land when they found they couldn't they have stopped sending money to the church but after it was repaired has tried to increase their tithes claiming if they could come up with the money for the repairs then they could pay more tithes.
They also closed two other rural churches in that area that served some very small congregations that had been open and were still being used and sold the land. The churches they closed had been used for over a hundred years with prior churches on the same spot.

I know that I shouldn't be surprised about the greed and corruption, but I think if the congregations were smart they would start asking/demanding for a detailed quarterly report of where their tithes are going. They know where it's going (for the most part) in their community but once it leaves their community then it just disappears.
I do understand that it costs money to educate a minister, pay for lights/heating/water upkeep of buildings but when none of the money ever comes back to the community that tithes it especially when they need it makes my blood boil.

Regards,
Mabon.

though this hit the mark

Not a christian....

Norwood, momentary, just because you two don't think that organized religion is needed, some do. Those that do, have every right to give money to support their church.

But of course, I agree !

One good thing about Pagans is we can worship on the cheap. Put some rocks in a circle, make an alter out of stone or wood, dig a fire pit and you got a place to worship. Of course we freeze in the winter, are eaten alive in the summer, and sometimes have to cancel cause of rain, but nobody said it is easy just cheap. One time we did a ritual in somebodies pool, that was fun.

So it's ok that a pastor lives in a house cost more then what most of us here on UM combinded make?

It's absolutely okay. How is it okay for your or Ripley to set the wages of ministers at minimum wage? You have no idea what they even do. They work very hard. But even if they don't...so what business is it of yours or anyone else if they don't.

Put another way: Where do you get off telling someone else how much they should make for their job? How much should a butcher make? How about a lawyer? Postman? Garbage collector?

And another thing: how do you on one hand preach separation of church and state ...and then on the other hand think that the churches should be taxed? If the government isn't involved in religion...why should it profit from it? Don't you think that if they were taxed then there would be a huge church lobby in Washington? How does that even equate to separation of church and state?

It is okay for everyone here to give their opinion, I believe the person wanted our opinions about church and religion. So here we are, Giving our opinion. If I asked what do you think about someone who damns others opinions because they don't agree with them, What would you say? I don't agree with alot of people here but I still respect their right to their own opinion, that is just me though I try to see every veiw and then if mine is wrong so be it, If not I haven't lost anything. Always a pleasure

I would not limit their wages , but it just seems contrary to the teachings Of jesus who many of these prweachers considder God.

THere are starving children Out side the church, while there are Gold alters inside the church. My wife used to be a bank teller, and the preacher would roll up in his cadilac with Diamond rings on every finger, He looked like liberache, only Bigger.

To tell a parishoner that we need to pass the plate for someone who is hurting Is all fine and dandy, but to see this guy spending the peoples money on things like bobbles and a new cadi every year is disgusting imo.

When I lived Upstate new york, I came home from work , and asked my Ex wife where the money went, Cause I had bounced a check, She had sent bour last 250,00 to Pat robertson, we had a baby on the way, Man What a Bummer. I know Pat probably really neede it, more Than we did.

Ive seen oreachers Get an audience in to a frenzy talkin bout How gay people vare An abomination to God, How will that guy Feel when a paritioner goes out and kills one For God, Many actually will Pay good money to see this show,

But the actor, ahem I mean preacher will feel bad after this life if he has not done good with the money, Or fleeced the flock so to speak, He will judge his own spirit harder thjan God ever would,

I guess those giving Have no Idea where their money is spent, and think it all goes to helping People in need , their efforts are Good, and should be aplauded.

Love Omnaka

ah but jesus preached that all his disciples needed was the cloak on their backs. he preached poor himself. Guess his mouth pieces don't agree.


I do know that father Roman , that tends to my Grand mother lives humbly. and works his rear off. but he desires to serve as Jesus did. not line his pocket.



if a church is making hand over fist it should pay taxes. then it is nothing but a business disguised as a church. heck I should get into the racket. it's as bad as panhandling on the street for drug money. ( maybe restrictions like 50% of it's income should go to charities and those charities be checked on quartly to qualify being deemed tax free.)

and religion already has lobbiests in washington.

I thought they threw Ted Haggard Out.

Love Omnaka

I'm not saying that its my business but you can't honestly tell me that the church is paying him that much money to afford that type of house. I know a couple of preachers & what they have told me is that being a preacher is a lot like a game show host. I don’t think they work nearly as hard as say a construction worker or lawyer. There are too many people out there who take advantage of the system & personally I believe that this guy was one of them. I think there should be someone there who should oversee where the money really goes.

Our church has accountants and secratarys and or course the deacons who decide what the pastor will be paid and what else is included. There is someone that knows about how much the church takes in and how much the pastor will recieve. The pastor would have to take control of the offering and the accounting and all that, Theres no way he can or would be allowed to do that. there are people in place to keep the churches money in place, Now its usually a group so the chance for coruption is lower, always a pleasure

cor·po·ra·tion
–noun 1. an association of individuals, created by law or under authority of law, having a continuous existence independent of the existences of its members, and powers and liabilities distinct from those of its members.


so i cant say i agree with your statement at all.. infact, i dont think anybody does.

EVERYBODY knows how vulnerable corperations are to corruption.
so your statement suggests nothing

First, you are referring to mega churches. I know plenty of local church pastors, who have to work another job just to pay their mortgage. Second, I don't disagree this behavior is wrong and hypocrytical, but it's legal. That's all I'm saying. It seems some here believe that laws should be passed to limit their wages.

I think the problem is with the Christians ourselves. We would rather give money that we are told is being used to help those in need, or to sponser misionaries (that situation is a whole other gripe of mine) than to actually go out and do what we are supposed to be doing ourselves.
pay and let someone else do the work while we get on with our lives feeling good that we have given to the cause.

funny thing is tho, when Jesus was speaking of seperating the good and bad, He didn't say "you didn't give money to support those who were visiting the prisoners, and the sick, or to those who were feeding and clothing the poor", He said you did not do it. we all have the chance to help those in our communities, but most don't want to bother.

Unfortunately, most of the money given never goes where it is supposed to. Those churches that try to do what they are supposed to be doing, never have enough money to fund the material needed, even if they have the people, while those that have an abundance of money do nothing. Catholic or protestant, it is the same. would the rich Baptist church help fund some of the poor Catholic parishes efforts? Or the Rich Assemblies of God help fund the poor Methodists? Oh no, that would NEVER do. and that, is the biggest problem, the "you aren't really christian if you are not [insert group here]"

If we the members of each local body would demand accountability from our leaders, and be willing to help out our brothers and sisters, there would be no homeless, or hungry.
okay, i will get off my soap box now.

I think the way how things run is ok, but people are not ok at all, consider that they are the sinners. The common pattern is;

God creates things while humans clone them in an imperfect or even wicked way.


Regarding to the word "Perfect",

1. standards belong to God, so humans may not know accurately what "perfect" means
2. whenever you say "something" is "perfect", which means, you have a full understanding of the purposes and functions that "something" serves

Say, if you don't understand the purpose of the earth, when you say earth is perfect (or not), you are basing your subjective comment on your understanding of the purposes and functions our earth.

Another example, you won't say that the mirror is not perfect because it can't chat with you as a friend, as you know well that 'a mirror' never serves or functions the same as a friend does.


You have to get the whole picture first before you say that "something" is perfect or not.

Sadly your very right about that.

There have already been some really good points made in this thread, I just want to put my 2 cents in.

There is a specific set of criteria that makes a church a Mega Church, and I see them the same way I see Walmart, taking over smaller businesses and altering the market for their benefit.

I think Mega Churches should be taxed like any other business would be, and have breaks for money spent on things like missionaries, charity, etc over spending money for a fingerprint scanner for their Sunday School classes...Megachurch, Megatech

I just think they need to prove they are "non-profit" or that the definition of "non-profit" should be examined.

You know, the Church of Satan has time and time again opted out of tax exempt status citing that there should be "responsibility to the responsible", i.e. religions. i kindve admire anton laveys organization for that, i think theyre setting an example all religions should follow.

I've known some Pagan around this area looking to open a kind of place to gather & worship in this area, but because we worship outside we can't get a taxfree status. The law states that there must be a buliding on the ground I'm not sure if you can have a buliding & still worship outside though. Now please don't get me wrong I'm not saying that the law just looks after organized but at some point you have to wonder. I agree that someone should be watching those preachers who drive home in a $80,000 & live in a home that is close to what it cost to bulid the church.

How about a cheap Gazebo, and after the cerimony you could burn it to the ground?

Do pagans Tithe?

Love Omnaka

I'm not sure that would work but to anwser your question no we do not tithe. We do give to charties but most of us give to different charties of our choice.

My wife just told me there is a hindi Building Thats 5 ft high , has a copper dome and about 6' wide, a perfect miniature, with working door electricity and windows, she said it was a big whoopdeedoo, that made the Paper , When they submitted their plans to the building dept The building dept, did not look at the scale of the drawings and They are now tax exempt.

Love Omnaka

'norwood1026' How should it be spent is it just being wasted on things like mega churches? Don't we all slave to pay for our homes already? There are after all many many potential places to congregate that do not require any additional debt to the world's banking elite. Times that by 33,000 religions, each with a multitude of temples, synagogues, mosques, halls, churches and there are plenty of widows and orphans going without care and millions of people going to bed hungry and naked. We were watching HGTV tonight & there is this one Pastor living in a home thats worth over $650.00 is this where the money is going? Why? Doesn't the bible say give up your wordly possesions & follow God? The christian God never said you had to go to church to worship him. Look at the churches that the catholics bulid why all the focus on the bulidings? Where does their God fit into all of this?

While I agree with you that too much money is spent on the building of some mere places of worship when starvation is faced daily by millions, please spread your ire fairly and not use Catholics as a convenience to rant on. And, a pastor is obviously not Catholic.

I know for a fact in my own country that when we need to have a new church because the several masses a day are packed out by people from other regions as well, it takes 5 years of fund raising from funfairs, lucky draws and such before the sum is met. Hindus face even worse difficulties. Buddhists make splendid personal sacrifices to raise the sums earlier. On the other hand, fundamentalist christians make 10 phone calls and they have the money for a church. Muslims are given government grants and free land.

Our Catholic churches are not just places for worship but also community activities:classes in maths, science and language for weak students; collection of used clothing and books/toys/food for the indigent in our country and the region; adult education; a cheaper wedding and funeral venue and many other useful and worthwhile stuff. I know for a fact that some of the other places of worship in other religions do similar things.

And let it not be forgotten, Agnostics, Atheists & so-called 'Freethinkers', many people derive great comfort from speaking to their priest/monk/imam/leader and to fellow worshippers. They receive actual help, friendship and a kind word when it is most needed. I don't think they will know to go to you when help is needed.

Sure, it can all be done better. So get off your butt and begin to set it right for us all.

'norwood1026' "I'm not saying that its my business but you can't honestly tell me that the church is paying him that much money to afford that type of house. I know a couple of preachers & what they have told me is that being a preacher is a lot like a game show host. I don’t think they work nearly as hard as say a construction worker or lawyer. There are too many people out there who take advantage of the system & personally I believe that this guy was one of them. I think there should be someone there who should oversee where the money really goes."

+ "So it's ok that a pastor lives in a house cost more then what most of us here on UM combinded make?"

Just as the police go after a kid with a single grass seed and the courts have to let a murderer get away with it on a technicality [- and I mean no insult to all hardworkiing police doing a great and dangerous job]; just as the richest people pay the least tax; just as funding for genuine medical research dries up but money is spent on yet another failed federal initiative that any idiot could have said from the start would waste millions .... you want to worship outdoors and cannot get the legitimate break you think you are entitled to, FIND THE WAY. Study the system, work out what makes it tick and put in a correctly-worded proper application. Jesus, if the Church of Satan can get a license surely you lot who have no such devilry in mind should have the brain to get it together and get organized.
And the way does not include bleating about overpaid pastors and certainly not in attacking ordinary people in the Catholic Church who volunteer several hours twice a week to pack groceries for poor families in the church hall attached to the church.

Just remember to leave the scale off the building plans, and build The doll house to code.

Love Omnaka

I never said that I was entitled to anything but it does seem unfair that their are those that do. It does seems that the system was bulit to protect the rich & make their lives more comfortable.
Perhaps the people who build the church only care to attract those who can tithe the most.
Lets face it you see some very high dollar cars in the parking lots of the mega-churches.
Maybe because you go to church you should do something about this. All I’m just saying is that this has gotten way out of hand. I do not care to find a way I’m not into bucking the system.

Buck away God has no need of Money.

Love Omnaka