I am so on the same wave-length as the author (unknown) of this opinion


While I myself am not religious, I do not have a problem with anyone else being so. I have nothing against religion, or individual private beliefs. I do not care if you are devout.

If the truth be told, I guess I do have a "spirituality" of a kind, and it could best be described as a line from an old song by Edie Brickell & the New Bohemians. I don't remember the name of the song, and actually it wasn't that good a song to begin with, but the line went: "religion is the smile on a dog." In other words, for me, religion is a simple and personal respect of nature without attributing the universe to a mystical Überbieng. For you praying to Yahweh may do the trick. For me, seeing my dogs grinning like idiots after a good bout of playing the pulling game does it.

That being said, my view of people with faith is this: Okay. You say you are a deeply devout zoroastrian? Okay. You say you are a fundamentalist christian? Okay. You say you are a reformed jew? Okay. You say you are a hybrid wiccan-druid-neopagan? Okay. I really don't care at all about your religion. You can be a satanist for all I care. But I do care if you suddenly decide to try to sell me on your beliefs, or if your worshiping interferes with my freedom not to worship. Then, I get upset. I mean, if I can let you be mulsim without trying to convince you of the joys of being an atheist, then the least you can do is return the favor.

Unfortunately that small favor is often not returned, and I have had to endure all manner of high-and-mighty types condescend to me regarding belief for most of my life. And, even more unfortunately, these condescending gas-bags almost invariably happen to belong to one christian sect or another. For some reason, I have never had a jew, muslim, buddhist, hindu, taoist, druid, or any other belief-representative come up to me under the guise of engaging in an intellectual philosophical discussion only to then ambush me by trying to get me to pray with them. However, I have had catholics, presbyterians, fundamentalists, pentecostals, methodists, protestants, and jehova's witnesses all come up to me, full of smiles, and do just that.

And that has become a very sore spot with me.

Again, I can't emphasize strongly enough that while I am not religious, I do not have a problem with anyone else being so. I have nothing against religion, per se, or individual private beliefs, and it does not bother me if you are devout.

Why do I feel it necessary to repeat that? Because whenever I express myself by saying that I am not religious, and that I do not appreciate being the target of a conversion, I get accused of being anti-religious. Because whenever I speak up and question the effect of an unyielding belief in some religious doctrine, I am accused of being intolerant. Because whenever I discuss matters of science that run contrary to religious dogma, I am accused of perpetuating an atmosphere hostile to faith.

Yet whenever my private values are contradicted, or whenever my expression of acceptance of other philosophies is mocked, or whenever my belief in scientific evidence is questioned, or whenever some freaking a-hole feeling the need to proselytize accosts me without invitation, that is not considered hostile.

Why is that? Why is it that christians constantly claim that anyone who does not agree with them, or anyone who voices a contrary opinion, or anyone who expresses a desire not to be preached to is engaging in the sport of christian-bashing?

Now, there is no doubt that some reactionary aggression is directed at christians. I myself have lashed out a few times, and made gross generalizations about those in the faith. Yet how any christian living in the United States can claim victimization is beyond me, and simply flies in the face of reason.

Consider this: We live in a country that has an overwhelmingly christian population. Our President has gone on record as saying that he is a born-again christian, and that his personal hero is Jesus. Our Attorney General is a fundamentalist christian who believes in creationism, a literal interpretation of the bible, and that homosexuality is a sin. Our currency has the words "In God We Trust" printed on it. In our courts witnesses are asked to place their hands upon a christian bible and swear to tell the truth. Government meetings are often opened with an invocation delivered by a christian minister. Schools all across the country are constantly being pressured by dimwitted fanatics to teach the christian mythology of creationism as a legitimate scientific principle along the scientifically based evolutionary theory. Schools are also being pressured to allow christians the right to say prayers before school,events, such as football games, assemblies, graduations, and others.

How can a society so overwhelmingly christian possibly be hostile to them?

The answer is that it isn't. The only time christians feel attacked is when anyone dares react to the unrelenting pressure constantly applied by christians upon our society, as if resisting christian indoctrination was a hostile act, rather than simply exercising the Constitutional gift of personal freedom.. A perfect example is the recent 9th US Circuit Court ruling that made recitation of the pledge of allegiance illegal in public schools, so long as the pledge contained the words "under god" in it. The ruling, properly and correctly, said that reciting these two words broke the sacred covenant of the separation of church and state, and thus must be prohibited. Conservatives, so-called "patriots," and christians have brutally assailed this ruling as the latest in a long-line of attacks on their values, and as further evidence not only that the country is well on its way to hell, but also as firm and total proof that an anti-christian bias exists and is gaining strength.

Excuse my language, but bullshít.

This is not proof that modern American society is intolerant of christians. It is, however, proof that modern American society still protects the freedom of all individuals granted under the Constitution. However, while some christians don't necessarily believe that enforcing the first amendment is a state-sponsored act of repression, they do seem to believe that this is evidence of a society where it is okay to mock degrade, and persecute christians. Somehow the act of disagreement with christian belief and of defending the concept of maintaining a clear separation of church and state has morphed into christian-bashing, with christians then assuming the well-practised role of victims of a harsh and intolerant society.

Yet, the fact that America is such a resoundingly christian country makes those of us who are non-christian view the self-proclaimed martyrdom and cries of victimization by christians insulting -- much like a superstar athlete crying about being underpayed and unappreciated. If a christian living in a christian country is persecuted, how must a non-christian feel? The nation celebrates the two most important events of the christian faith, easter and christmas, with national holidays and garish celebrations and decorations. Sure other religious events are paid lip-service, but they never receive the same level of attention and reverence. Athletes and entertainers who shamelessly thank Jesus after winning championships and awards are respected and admired, while those who thank allah are at best patronized, and at worst insulted and ridiculed. Every one of our Presidents has been a christian who was active in the practice of their faith, yet when a jew was selected as the vice-presidential candidate questions were raised as to whether practicing his faith would interfere with his official duties. And yes, pop culture does contain many references to lunatic-fringe evangelicals, and often makes jokes at the expense of the christian faith, but it also contains more than a balance of pro-christian messages, programs and characters while islamic characters are always portrayed as terrorists or bloodthirsty felons.

Again, I am not stating that there are no cases of violent anti-christian acts, but then there are violent acts of intolerance based on race, religion, sexuality, gender and social status every day. The point is, christian-bashing is neither a sport, nor an accepted discriminatory behavior. It is a misperception on the part of christians who don't realize that not everyone wants to share their faith, and that defending our rights to be free of christian propaganda is not the same as assaulting or attacking them.

Yeah, if this is a culture of christian bashing, just try being a non-christian for a while.

http://www.epinions.com/content_2734858372

It's a nice rant, Lapse. But much of the author's suffering is self-inflicted. He might do well to seek out a Buddhist missionary for advice about that.

Recently, there was a plague of Mormon missionaries in the area where I live. Not content with proselytizing door-to-door, they accosted people on the street. I walk a lot.

In dealing with these pests, I used the Disraeli principle: never explain, never apologize. It is a rookie mistake to tell a missionary what you believe. It is none of their business, and anything you say to anyone can and will be used against you - why would you expect missionaries to be better behaved than cops?

When approached and chatted up with "We're here to tell the world about..." I simply say "How interesting, best of luck with that," and move on.

This is America. They really do have the right to be there, to explain their presence, and to try to initiate conversation. The first amendment to the Constitution protects the right to exercise religion just as it forbids any official or tax-supported religion.

Striking the balance between these two incompatible objectives has so far consumed more than two centuries of wrangling, with a lot of pendulum swinging along the way. I apologize that I have forgotten who said "In a free society, you have to put with a lot."

I agree eight bits. Fully.

I do exactly as you describe. I tell them thank you, have a nice day and move on. Or, simply, that I'm not interested.

Why do people let these folks hold them hostage then cry that they've been infringed on?

People DO have a right to be there, be they mormon, evangelicals, green peace, peta.. whatever. I'll support their first ammendment right to do those things. And trust me, I'm not a lover of any of those groups.

I don't care if George Bush announced to everyone and back that he's some kind of holy roller... hey, the majority elected him! I didn't vote for him at any time, I lost. I've had to suck it up and live with it for 8 agonizing years.

When are people going to stop being such victims? Yikes. THAT actually scares me.

While I most certainly agree with 8bits & you MW but I don't like people knocking on my door be they salesmen or whatever,or unannounced guests, I wish they would godvertise with pamphlets and leave them laying around at the store or in my mailbox (so that I can trash it,lol)

I dislike when people knock on my door>>Especially when I/someone just put their toddler to sleep or was taking a nice nap. I think this is very rude. This is why I would never do door to door selling or preaching (on the phone neither). I remember being dragged by my JW family door to door handing out Watchtowers,I thought I was going to die on the spot in shame. I felt instinctually that it was wrong.

I wish Atheists would start doing the same. just to see the reactions.Just for fun. That would be interesting,huh ?

Just want to hear your responses

Always a pleasure.-seeker.

My suggestion is, if you don't want people coming to your door, place a sign near the doorbell that says just that. If they ignore it, a quick call to the church or business or organization's head office will probably prevent you from being bothered again. If they continue to bother you.. follow up with a registered letter. If they STILL bother you... call the police, at that point, it's harassment. Simple.

MOLR,

Good to be in touch again! Okay, so let me get out up front: I'm a Christian who shares his faith with people who want to hear. I'm getting that out of the way so that I can minimize the ambush factor. Believe it or not, I agree with you about folks crying victim/wolf in our society--including Christians. I think that the victimization mentality is one that is appealed to far too often by lots of folks, and (sadly) we believers are not always above it. Usually, folks fancy themselves as victims in a society because they either feel 1) that they not afforded an opportunity to influence mainstream culture (a gripe that may or may not have legitimacy) or 2) their worldview/values has lost the sway it once had in a culture, so now they have to cry foul from the margins. It can be argued that many groups fit in the first camp, while fewer groups can argue that they have been in the second. While I think there are some legitimate instances in which American/Western Christians have legitimately cried victim, I think that the second grouping more adequately describes our situation in the U.S. and the West in general.



I'll have to slightly disagree with you about these two comments. I'm a big football fan and basketball, and while it's true that the vast majority of players who (for whatever reason) praise Jesus for their athletic accomplishments, I don't feel that someone (like the great Hakim Ulajuwon, pro basketball, Houston Rockets) who is Muslim is ridiculed if they say, "Praise be to Allah!" after winning a championship. You may know of some instances of this kind of bias than I do, but I'm not aware of any instances (or patterns). In U.S. politics anyone (especially these days) who self-identifies as a serious devotee of a religion is going to be asked about their faith. Mit Romney, a Mormon, is grilled about his faith all the time (and I don't think this is always unfair). Joseph Lieberman, a Jewish man, was. George Bush, a (so-called) Christian was/is. With skepticism surrounding religion for a variety of legitimate and illegitimate reasons, I feel that any serious adherent is going to be grilled. Again, this is not always bad; there are fair inquiries and unfair ones.

As for Christian evangelism (which some call "proselytizing"), I do agree that there are examples of folks who use subterfuge and deceit to trick folks into conversations about Jesus. However, I've known folks and organizations who go out of their way to have conversations in a responsible way. I was a minister with college students on college campuses for 10 years, and my students and I had many conversations with people about Jesus and spirituality. When we just went up and talked to folks totally out of the blue we were always careful to introduce ourselves as Christians who walked to have religious discussions up front. This way, there was no trickery, no deceit. What surprised us is that a very small number of people refused to talk. In fact, when students and faculty engaged us we actually began with questions that led to deeper conversations. We were not merely interested in vomiting "answers" all over folks without first recognizing that we may not even be addressing questions properly. On average, our conversations lasted at least one hour (the longest was five hours), and some people became devoted to Jesus as a result. Some others who did not want to follow Jesus informed us that they liked the way we went about starting religious discussion. Many spoke of some of the same off-putting encounters you so clearly enumerated above. We formed friendships with the majority of the folks we talked with, whether or not they became Christians.

But in 10 years of ministry I also did some STUPID things in evangelism that made Jesus and Christianity look incredibly dumb. I played the know-it-all, refused to admit when a non-Christian was right about something, said hurtful things, ignored concerns, and refused to find beauty or common ground in someone else's point of view (among other things). For these I was wrong, and I am grateful to have been forgiven by many folks who were subjected to my stupidity. Yeah, Christians need forgiveness from non-Christians sometimes.

I will say, though, that persuasion of any kind in life in unavoidable, whether we're on the giving or receiving end. This is part and parcel of being human. And, yes, the more deeply-held our convictions, the more passionate we are about persuading others or not being persuaded by others. People, though, do have a right to be left alone! No one has a right to force any religious or ideological idea on you. Because human beings are incurably communal, we cannot avoid being effected by what others believe. This can, in fact, work out well. For seven years, I co-hosted Muslim-Christians dialogues with the Muslim Student Association at University of New Orleans. Even through dialogues/debates my students and I enjoyed deep friendships with Muslims, and we benefited from their warmth and hospitality. These virtues were due to their strong devotion to Allah and Islam. We were effected by this, even though we are not Muslim. But being effected by others is not the same as being persuaded by others. And while the former is (to some extent) unavoidable, you should have much more say in the latter. Thanks for your comments, MOLR.

as a former invader I have to say that people "don't mean no" until they have said it 3 times. and i mean invader in the sense that I was a missionary and a telemarketer...it is a concept taught in both places.

I am very impressed by the objectivity of all of your posts so far, thankyou.

You all have made some very good & fair observations.

Thats because You aren't doing it (Worshiping) Right.

Now Come , wont you pray with me?

Just kidding. Good points , I think God liked it too..

Love Omnaka

LoL, How would an Athiest do it, Show up with a six pack and a Good action flick?

Love Omnaka

Actually I do pray, I'm just not 100% sure someone up there is listening.

And I pray for others, not myself. For some weird reason I feel praying for myself isn't right even though it seems unreasonable not to.

But i pray anyways, just in case. It can't hurt now,can it ?

I feel god respects my skepticism (if he exists) as I admire it in my children.

Is that just for Missionary train of thought Or does it apply to a girl saying she does not want to have sex also.

ImO If someone says No, they mean no, They can always change their mind later, but respect is esential, Its not love if it's forced.

That is what missionaries are supposed to be promoting isn't it? Love?

Love Omnaka

He would bring Science books, history books,anthropology books, neuro-science books, evolutionary biology books,astronomy books etc.. Now who has the patience for all that when ONE book is so much more convenient ?

Basically alot of stuff people choose to ignore or reject.

Six pack & action huh ? Hmmm.......................

You are doin it right bro, I was not kidding about God Liking it too.

Some don't need religion and Find God in Spirit, You have the right Spirit IMO.

Love Omnaka

It's not her philosophy Omnaka ,it's what your'e told in marketing,it's a strategy called "break em down" till they give you what you want just to get rid of you, it's manipulation in it's simplest form. Some people can also be made to feel guilty easily,many give in under pressure. there are always weak ones out there

Oh , I thought she Believed what she was taught, By the I have to say ,
Must be quite the learning experience.

Love Omnaka

Yes, it's a strategy in telemarketing that she was taught

missionaries do love. but the mission of the missionary is to spread a message. it puts them in very dangerous situations sometimes where death can be impending depending on which country you are called to so no i would not say they are "promoting" love, i would say they offer a way to God's love but in fact are promoting the message of whatever church the trip is led by, which is one reason I don't go anymore. Im just saying you can't equivocate the word missionary with the word love, some aren't spreading love, some, in fact, are spreading lies, or fear, or whatever.

as momentary said below...in a marketing sense...

but back to your sex question. A man "marketing" sex to a woman probably would take the same course if he had any sales training. It wouldn't be like "do you wanna have sex?" "no." three times but along the lines of a greeting, and a line or two, before she gets across her disinterest and he takes the hint. she may have to say no 3 times.



yep. and sometimes people say no out of habit and you just have to pique someones interest.

Was there something you wanted?

I guess thats why I'm not that good a sayles man, Don't get me wrong, I could be, but I always feel Im Trying to sell you something you Dont need or want, then I feel guilty by infringing on anothers freewill.
I used to be very good at it, but Then the guilt set in. Now I just build houses and Know it is what they want and need, because they asked me to.
Or because someone saw my work and liked it.
every one walks away happy.

Love Omnaka

this is going to sound awful buuuut. I am always trying to sell something, fisrt of all it is my job. but also my roomate and I are some little con artists, not criminally but we can get into your wallet and alkyhol supply with you thinking it was your idea. i was in debate in highschool and I have been a waitress, telemarketer, retail sales person,telemarketer, now im a broker. selling is my life. and selling is not infringing on freewill, it is not forceful at all if you are doing it right, it is a gentle nudge or a distraction and whether or not you choose to follow my way is totally up to you. lucky i don't do anything illegal though....only take what is offered but make sure it is offered

WHY? are you selling something lol??

If your conscience Does not have a prob with it , then It is Ok. everything is relative.

I feel better giving , when asked, Viva la Differance.

Love Omnaka

It's true ,while you are at least not forcing them at gunpoint nor robbing them,but are you able to be honest in what you claim to deliver ?

That was classic, I just spit beer out my nose.

really? my conscience doesn't have a problem drowning people that hurt children in vats of malt vinegar and deep frying them whole. but that isn't okay is it? it's a shame, perv on a stick would have taken off i just know it.....haha.



im not forcing them, and of course i can deliver at my job....thats my livelihood. but when i go out and "sell" im only selling my smile. that is in fact pretty lucritive.

I believe that ! Good for you !

as far as the bashing thing goes....bashing is one thing and persecution is another. There are some pretty graphic images and instances of other nations persecuting christians for being christians and leads to death more often than necessary. Christianity maybe one of the most growth driven religions but it is not because people leave them alone. for instance in mexico, there was a massacre of a town of christians for feeding one of their own that was in prison. James Elliot was killed for his beliefs as a missionary in another country panama i believe but could be wrong. and natives of the middle east and asian countries are imprisoned even in these days for belief in christ.

I'm sorry, need a hanky ?


I give you hanky for panky ,ok ?

Yes, i know this.

No one should be persecuted for their beliefs unless they kill for that belief.

Like I said, if killing a perv and putting him on a stick is Ok with your conscience then IMo It's Ok for you.

I hope your smile Stays bright Through out your life.

LOve Omnaka

you just gave me a terribly awesome idea

Put up a sign by your door:

"Salesmen and solicitors of any kind are not welcome, and will be considered as trespassers."

Many people of faith believe that they have a mandate to spread their word. Our form of government allows them to practice their faith.
Our form of government also allows that a person in their home be free from nuisence and unwarranted visitations.
By posting signage, you do not infringe upon their right to spread their faith, and they do not infringe upon your right to privacy.

Problem resolved.

It's already been done... search Youtube for the video.. everyone around here has seen it though.

Here's the link MMW told you about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV-a1vmZ6y8 Enjoy

I really don't care for this guy though, don't know why

"What I don't like about bible thumpers, or any cult for that matter, is the arrogance exhibited with impunity by them as they perform their socially accepted public displays of schizophrenic indulgence with the goal of influencing weak-minded individuals, mostly young impressionable children, to join in activities that brainwash them into thinking a certain way so as to restrict their ability to freely reason, to police their own thoughts and become willing slaves, to not take responsibility for their own actions, and to be unquestioningly subservient to the will of a silent invisible entity whose thoughts and wishes are supposedly passed down through the overly exaggerated, un-provable, inconsistent, babblings of an old book that can only be deciphered correctly by someone who claims to be in direct contact with this entity, and who is undoubtedly either the most schizophrenic, or the most deviant member of the group. I see religion, all religion, as evil, and its minions as zombies." -Steve Pinkston

I guess that means Halloween is out...

Lets be honest here the reason Christianity is given a bad name is because they bring on themselves.
Look at the TV on Sunday morning they stand on the street & tell people that they are going to burn in hell.
Some of them get high & mighty & truly believe that they are better then others. They refuse to think for themselves & blindly let themselves be led along by some preacher.

Now I'm not saying that they are all like this but it just takes a few to make all of them look bad.

As it only takes a few Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics,...etc. to make them all look close-minded, uninformed, unenlightened and think they are all better than everyone else. Look at them all watching people leaving church and making fun of them, going along with what their friends say without thinking for themselves.

Not that I'm saying they are all like that it just takes a few of them to make them all look bad.

...Who waits outside a church to make fun of people? In all the years that I went to church, I never encountered that. And I've definitely never sat outside a church and made fun of people....neither have any of my friends... And I've never heard stories of that happening...maybe things are different in the states?

However, I have heard/seen the Christians who sit outside Planned Parenthood and condemn the girls going in.

That’s very true but Christians are stereotyped for a reason & a lot of it is true. People are judged by how they are seen. And very few Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics,...etc. are seen doing those things. Christianity is held in high regard by a lot of people so when just ONE does something stupid they look bad to everyone.
It’s like running a business do good things & no one hears about it & no one really cares. However do something stupid & the whole world knows!

That was my point she just took it the wrong way.

That was a metaphor, tralalala.

If anyone were to stereotype blacks, hispanics, Muslims, Europeans, Australians, etc, here the way Christianity is they would be banned and we all know it. There is as much ammunition out there against them. Bashing Christianity is even more popular than bashing America.

met·a·phor (mět'ə-fôr', -fər) Pronunciation Key
n.
A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in "a sea of troubles" or "All the world's a stage" (Shakespeare).
One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: "Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven" (Neal Gabler).


No it wasn't a metaphor, it was a statement. You may have MEANT something different, but you stated it as though you/someone you know had seen atheists exhibiting that behaviour.

*sigh* You've outfoxed me...Christians are indeed the blind sheep that are led without a brain in our poor little heads...but alas, I have no one to think for me at the moment.

Please forgive me. *bows*

Baaaaah, Baaaaaaah, Baaaaaaah...

....black sheep, here I am....

*snicker*

That's not at all what I was getting at. I have nothing against Christians!! I've grown up with Christians, am friends with Christians, and I am a former Christian.

What I was trying to get across, is that you phrased your statement in such a way that it was implied that you had seen/knew of atheists sitting outside of churchs and mocking Christians. Again, I don't know if that's what you meant, but that's what your phrasing lead me to believe.

My pointing out that it wasn't a metaphor wasn't a dig at Christianity, it was a comment on bad grammar. I would have made the same statement had you been any other religion.

Grammer really isn't my cup of tea and it's considered poor form to point it out.

I don't remember saying what religion I am?

Just an assumption based on that. Anyways, that goes beyond a grammar faux-pas. You made a statement, and claimed that it was a metaphor. If you had used a metaphor, it would have come across as an entirely different message.