Alright, I know this topic has been covered before, but I would like to revive it to put my 2 cents worth in.
Dragons did exist, just not as we know them in mythology. I have a theory that would very easily explain the legends of dragons throughout the world.
What if dinosaurs were around alot longer than people think. Not as a dominant species, but a few straggling species here and there. What if they existed not only into the age of man, but into the age of written history.
Primitives would see these giant, long necked, long tailed lizards, and not knowing at the time what they were, created fantastic tales about them. Adding embelishments such as breathing fire, flying, etc. They would hunt these unknown evil creatures down, and kill them, eating the meat, and using the bone for tools, weapons, etc., leaving nothing of the creature behind. Except of course for the fantastic tale that they tell their children about the giant, evil monster that nearly killed them with fire from it's mouth, before they were lucky enough to kill it first. From this, the legend of dragons were born. Which also explains why, throughout the world, legends of dragons exist on all continents, and have different characteristics. Also, add in the fact that as humans started building, and changing their lanscapes around them, that they would find remains of dinosaurs, much like we do today, and again, the only explanation for them is the stories of the giant, firebreathing, flying, rampaging creatures that were told to them by their grandfathers.
What do you think?
Full Version: Dragons
Interesting theory, but by the time primitive apes developed language to that complexity, the dinosaur "remnants" had long since evolved into birds. Some, in fact, were giant ground-running birds that preyed on us. =P I think crocodilians, huge snakes, or large monitor lizards are more likely, especially since the farther you get from their location, the more embellished and ridiculous the legends get.
Dragons DID exist I agree, just probably not in the way we see them in fairy tales and such. I did watch some documentary on how it could have been possible for dragons to breath fire, though I'm not sure I believe it. So maybe-- maybe they did breath slight fire. Or more likely someone saw them on a cold morning breathing steam and thought it was smoke.
But yeah, dragons did and STILL exist-- bearded and kimodo dragons prove it.
But yeah, dragons did and STILL exist-- bearded and kimodo dragons prove it.
QUOTE (WraithGod @ Jan 8 2008, 04:16 PM) 
Interesting theory, but by the time primitive apes developed language to that complexity, the dinosaur "remnants" had long since evolved into birds. Some, in fact, were giant ground-running birds that preyed on us. =P I think crocodilians, huge snakes, or large monitor lizards are more likely, especially since the farther you get from their location, the more embellished and ridiculous the legends get.
Dinosaurs did not necessarily evolve out. If you believe that humans evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys?? Not all species evolve.
Crocs and other lizards might be an answer, but if you look at ancient drawings of "dragons", they almost always have the same characteristics. The long necks and long tails specifically. They look much more like a brontosaurus than any kind of croc I've ever seen.
QUOTE (GypsyWolf @ Jan 8 2008, 04:18 PM)
Dragons DID exist I agree, just probably not in the way we see them in fairy tales and such. I did watch some documentary on how it could have been possible for dragons to breath fire, though I'm not sure I believe it. So maybe-- maybe they did breath slight fire. Or more likely someone saw them on a cold morning breathing steam and thought it was smoke.
But yeah, dragons did and STILL exist-- bearded and kimodo dragons prove it.
But yeah, dragons did and STILL exist-- bearded and kimodo dragons prove it.
Bearded and komodo were only named dragons because their size was reminiscent of the legends of dragons.
Interesting theory on the cold morning breath, however, lilzards being cold blooded would not survive long in an environment that had mornings that cold. They really can't even move well in colder weather.
I think I saw the documentary you mentioned. It wasn't a factual documentary though. It was a fictional one dealing with the subject of IF dragons had existed, and how they evolved, their biology(including a fire breathing species), and their eventual extinction.
QUOTE (BIGK1974 @ Jan 8 2008, 04:25 PM)
Dinosaurs did not necessarily evolve out. If you believe that humans evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys?? Not all species evolve.
Crocs and other lizards might be an answer, but if you look at ancient drawings of "dragons", they almost always have the same characteristics. The long necks and long tails specifically. They look much more like a brontosaurus than any kind of croc I've ever seen.
Crocs and other lizards might be an answer, but if you look at ancient drawings of "dragons", they almost always have the same characteristics. The long necks and long tails specifically. They look much more like a brontosaurus than any kind of croc I've ever seen.
Humans didn't evolve from monkeys. That's like saying dinosaurs evolved from lizards.
I have an entire topic in this forum on remnant dinosaurs that I'm not repeating here.
Look at the creature in my signature; I drew it, but it doesn't actually exist. It's a plausible creature design, but again, nonexistent. I have a whole world and description to go with that creature. Doesn't make it real. There's no reason why that drawing isn't based off embellished tales from the ancient past, or isn't just decoration, or isn't made up. I'm sure they had fiction back then too. Look at all the "pictures" of Jesus out there, considering that there are no pictures of him from the time and not much of a description in the Bible.
"I did watch some documentary on how it could have been possible for dragons to breath fire, though I'm not sure I believe it. So maybe-- maybe they did breath slight fire."
I agree with the OP, the documentary was theoretical. I could create a plausible anatomical design for a creature that squirts strong acid from a gland on its bum, doesn't mean natural selection will develop the right equipment for it or that it would be a good survival technique. =P
QUOTE (WraithGod @ Jan 8 2008, 04:37 PM)
Humans didn't evolve from monkeys. That's like saying dinosaurs evolved from lizards.
I have an entire topic in this forum on remnant dinosaurs that I'm not repeating here.
Look at the creature in my signature; I drew it, but it doesn't actually exist. It's a plausible creature design, but again, nonexistent. I have a whole world and description to go with that creature. Doesn't make it real. There's no reason why that drawing isn't based off embellished tales from the ancient past, or isn't just decoration, or isn't made up. I'm sure they had fiction back then too. Look at all the "pictures" of Jesus out there, considering that there are no pictures of him from the time and not much of a description in the Bible.
"I did watch some documentary on how it could have been possible for dragons to breath fire, though I'm not sure I believe it. So maybe-- maybe they did breath slight fire."
I agree with the OP, the documentary was theoretical. I could create a plausible anatomical design for a creature that squirts strong acid from a gland on its bum, doesn't mean natural selection will develop the right equipment for it or that it would be a good survival technique. =P
I have an entire topic in this forum on remnant dinosaurs that I'm not repeating here.
Look at the creature in my signature; I drew it, but it doesn't actually exist. It's a plausible creature design, but again, nonexistent. I have a whole world and description to go with that creature. Doesn't make it real. There's no reason why that drawing isn't based off embellished tales from the ancient past, or isn't just decoration, or isn't made up. I'm sure they had fiction back then too. Look at all the "pictures" of Jesus out there, considering that there are no pictures of him from the time and not much of a description in the Bible.
"I did watch some documentary on how it could have been possible for dragons to breath fire, though I'm not sure I believe it. So maybe-- maybe they did breath slight fire."
I agree with the OP, the documentary was theoretical. I could create a plausible anatomical design for a creature that squirts strong acid from a gland on its bum, doesn't mean natural selection will develop the right equipment for it or that it would be a good survival technique. =P
I read your post in the other blog. I agree with the majority of it, however, you seem to state alot of theories as fact.
And yes, the drawings I referred to could have been based on a mythological story. My point behind that is, every continent around the world had stories and drawings of "dragons" long before there was travel between these continents. They all have very similar descriptions, and drawings for them. If the stories were all made up, how can different civilizations, with no contact with each other whatsoever, all come up with the same description, and the same drawings for the same creature, unless it existed in some form.
i just saw a "dragon" today. turned out, it was what i expected, a bird.
anyway, even though the fossil record isnt complete, we shouldnt expect to find 50 ft long creatures with wings. a dragon that weighs a couple tons couldnt lift off the ground and stay in the air. their very well might be smaller extinct animals that mightve lifted off the ground for a second or so, but not a 10 ton avian predator.
anyway, even though the fossil record isnt complete, we shouldnt expect to find 50 ft long creatures with wings. a dragon that weighs a couple tons couldnt lift off the ground and stay in the air. their very well might be smaller extinct animals that mightve lifted off the ground for a second or so, but not a 10 ton avian predator.
The legends of dragons came when dinosaur fossils were discovered, IMO.
QUOTE (SteveLove @ Jan 8 2008, 10:42 PM)
The legends of dragons came when dinosaur fossils were discovered, IMO.
QUOTE
Deuteronomy 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Nehemiah 2:13 And I went out by night by the gate of the valley, even before the dragon well, and to the dung port, and viewed the walls of Jerusalem, which were broken down, and the gates thereof were consumed with fire.
Job 30:29 I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
Psalms 44:19 Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death.
Psalms 74:13 Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
Psalms 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
Psalms 148:7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:
Isaiah 13:22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.
Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
Isaiah 34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
Isaiah 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
Isaiah 43:20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.
Isaiah 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
Jeremiah 9:11 And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant.
Jeremiah 10:22 Behold, the noise of the bruit is come, and a great commotion out of the north country, to make the cities of Judah desolate, and a den of dragons.
Jeremiah 14:6 And the wild asses did stand in the high places, they snuffed up the wind like dragons; their eyes did fail, because there was no grass.
Jeremiah 49:33 And Hazor shall be a dwelling for dragons, and a desolation for ever: there shall no man abide there, nor any son of man dwell in it.
Jeremiah 51:34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.
Jeremiah 51:37 And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwellingplace for dragons, an astonishment, and an hissing, without an inhabitant.
Ezekiel 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
Micah 1:8 Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls.
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
2 Esdras 15:29 Where the nations of the dragons of Arabia shall come out with many chariots, and the multitude of them shall be carried as the wind upon earth, that all they which hear them may fear and tremble.
2 Esdras 15:31 And then shall the dragons have the upper hand, remembering their nature; and if they shall turn themselves, conspiring together in great power to persecute them,
Additions to Esther 1:4 And the two dragons are I and Aman.
Additions to Esther 2:6 And, behold, two great dragons came forth ready to fight, and their cry was great.
The Wisdom of Solomon 16:10 But thy sons not the very teeth of venomous dragons overcame: for thy mercy was ever by them, and healed them.
Ecclesiasticus 25:16 I had rather dwell with a lion and a dragon, than to keep house with a wicked woman.
Bel and the Dragon 1:23 And in that same place there was a great dragon, which they of Babylon worshipped.
Bel and the Dragon 1:26 But give me leave, O king, and I shall slay this dragon without sword or staff. The king said, I give thee leave.
Bel and the Dragon 1:27 Then Daniel took pitch, and fat, and hair, and did seethe them together, and made lumps thereof1: this he put in the dragon's mouth, and so the dragon burst in sunder 1: and Daniel said, Lo, these are the gods ye worship.
Bel and the Dragon 1:28 When they of Babylon heard that, they took great indignation, and conspired against the king, saying, The king is become a Jew, and he hath destroyed Bel, he hath slain the dragon, and put the priests to death.
Nehemiah 2:13 And I went out by night by the gate of the valley, even before the dragon well, and to the dung port, and viewed the walls of Jerusalem, which were broken down, and the gates thereof were consumed with fire.
Job 30:29 I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
Psalms 44:19 Though thou hast sore broken us in the place of dragons, and covered us with the shadow of death.
Psalms 74:13 Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
Psalms 91:13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
Psalms 148:7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:
Isaiah 13:22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.
Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
Isaiah 34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
Isaiah 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
Isaiah 43:20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.
Isaiah 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
Jeremiah 9:11 And I will make Jerusalem heaps, and a den of dragons; and I will make the cities of Judah desolate, without an inhabitant.
Jeremiah 10:22 Behold, the noise of the bruit is come, and a great commotion out of the north country, to make the cities of Judah desolate, and a den of dragons.
Jeremiah 14:6 And the wild asses did stand in the high places, they snuffed up the wind like dragons; their eyes did fail, because there was no grass.
Jeremiah 49:33 And Hazor shall be a dwelling for dragons, and a desolation for ever: there shall no man abide there, nor any son of man dwell in it.
Jeremiah 51:34 Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.
Jeremiah 51:37 And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwellingplace for dragons, an astonishment, and an hissing, without an inhabitant.
Ezekiel 29:3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
Micah 1:8 Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls.
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
2 Esdras 15:29 Where the nations of the dragons of Arabia shall come out with many chariots, and the multitude of them shall be carried as the wind upon earth, that all they which hear them may fear and tremble.
2 Esdras 15:31 And then shall the dragons have the upper hand, remembering their nature; and if they shall turn themselves, conspiring together in great power to persecute them,
Additions to Esther 1:4 And the two dragons are I and Aman.
Additions to Esther 2:6 And, behold, two great dragons came forth ready to fight, and their cry was great.
The Wisdom of Solomon 16:10 But thy sons not the very teeth of venomous dragons overcame: for thy mercy was ever by them, and healed them.
Ecclesiasticus 25:16 I had rather dwell with a lion and a dragon, than to keep house with a wicked woman.
Bel and the Dragon 1:23 And in that same place there was a great dragon, which they of Babylon worshipped.
Bel and the Dragon 1:26 But give me leave, O king, and I shall slay this dragon without sword or staff. The king said, I give thee leave.
Bel and the Dragon 1:27 Then Daniel took pitch, and fat, and hair, and did seethe them together, and made lumps thereof1: this he put in the dragon's mouth, and so the dragon burst in sunder 1: and Daniel said, Lo, these are the gods ye worship.
Bel and the Dragon 1:28 When they of Babylon heard that, they took great indignation, and conspired against the king, saying, The king is become a Jew, and he hath destroyed Bel, he hath slain the dragon, and put the priests to death.
these are verses from the bible...and also some texts that aren't in the versions that i am used to..anywhoo. dragons were around and apparantly
QUOTE (ravergirl @ Jan 8 2008, 06:11 PM)
these are verses from the bible...and also some texts that aren't in the versions that i am used to..anywhoo. dragons were around and apparantly
I wouldn't exactly take stories from the Bible as fact.
QUOTE (SteveLove @ Jan 8 2008, 11:12 PM)
I wouldn't exactly take stories from the Bible as fact.
I wouldn't exactly discount them either. there maybe some controversy on the Jesus story and why not, but the bible wasn't written by one guy in a day. that is a lot of mentions over several thousand years.
I suspect rather strongly that there was and is some truth to the legends, but that truth may be rather different than we expect.
Some theories that do not require as much conjecture are also presented below:
People saw dinosaur bones, tried (poorly) to assemble them and wonder about the creatures that left them.
There might be a genetic memory of small mammals getting eaten and squashed by dinosaurs, leading to our legends. (from Carl Sagen, Dragon s of Eden)
Dragons might be a composite of the different totemic animals of different tribes coming together (Lil Gremlin's theory).
For all of that though, I suspect that there is some fire behind the smoke. These creatures haunt our dreams, art, legends, and religion, and I expect for a reason.
Some theories that do not require as much conjecture are also presented below:
People saw dinosaur bones, tried (poorly) to assemble them and wonder about the creatures that left them.
There might be a genetic memory of small mammals getting eaten and squashed by dinosaurs, leading to our legends. (from Carl Sagen, Dragon s of Eden)
Dragons might be a composite of the different totemic animals of different tribes coming together (Lil Gremlin's theory).
For all of that though, I suspect that there is some fire behind the smoke. These creatures haunt our dreams, art, legends, and religion, and I expect for a reason.
QUOTE (ravergirl @ Jan 8 2008, 06:19 PM)
I wouldn't exactly discount them either. there maybe some controversy on the Jesus story and why not, but the bible wasn't written by one guy in a day. that is a lot of mentions over several thousand years.
I'd take Jesus' story before the story of dragons.
The Legend of Dragon is religion mist 
Honestly, sometimes I wonder if this forum is safe for the remenants of my sanity. (On the Internet everyone acts as thought they're insane but they're actually just quiet and nerdy. Yeah, well, Im different. I really am Insane.)
Dragons are fairytales. Ask any 8 year old, heck, any 3 year old, in fact, anyone who has learn't to talk and they'll tell you "Dragons are make believe" or "Dragons are in fairytales, they're not real of course". And those kids are right. I mean come on, its OK to believe in cryptids and mysteries, but Dragons? That pushes the enevolpe WAY too far.
Dragons are fairytales. Ask any 8 year old, heck, any 3 year old, in fact, anyone who has learn't to talk and they'll tell you "Dragons are make believe" or "Dragons are in fairytales, they're not real of course". And those kids are right. I mean come on, its OK to believe in cryptids and mysteries, but Dragons? That pushes the enevolpe WAY too far.
wow im suppsrised DC havent smelled the Word dragon yet.
QUOTE (Undeadskeptic @ Jan 9 2008, 02:50 AM)
Honestly, sometimes I wonder if this forum is safe for the remenants of my sanity. (On the Internet everyone acts as thought they're insane but they're actually just quiet and nerdy. Yeah, well, Im different. I really am Insane.)
Dragons are fairytales. Ask any 8 year old, heck, any 3 year old, in fact, anyone who has learn't to talk and they'll tell you "Dragons are make believe" or "Dragons are in fairytales, they're not real of course". And those kids are right. I mean come on, its OK to believe in cryptids and mysteries, but Dragons? That pushes the enevolpe WAY too far.
Dragons are fairytales. Ask any 8 year old, heck, any 3 year old, in fact, anyone who has learn't to talk and they'll tell you "Dragons are make believe" or "Dragons are in fairytales, they're not real of course". And those kids are right. I mean come on, its OK to believe in cryptids and mysteries, but Dragons? That pushes the enevolpe WAY too far.
I don't know if you are insane or just plain ignorant. Dragons are dieties in much of the oriental world so that's about a third of the human population. And although most Christians are largely ignorant of much of their theology, archaelogy proves that Yahweh and the other highest dieties (Seraphim) are what the ancient Jews themselves translated to "dragons". Moslems too, have dragons in their thelogy so add these two groups and that is another 2 billion people.
Perhaps all of mankind's religious beliefs are nonsense, but far more intelligent people than you profess beliefs, and like it or not, dragon's have a role in virtually every human belief system.
So you statement that "any three year old thinks dragon's are make believe" is incredibly stupid.
And as for cryptic animals, many that are of a reptilian form, perhaps all of them, were once called 'dragons', and that may indeed be the most accurate description.
If you think this forum 'isn't safe for your remaining sanity', I suggest you leave it, because you are contributing nothing to it, except very stupid statements.
QUOTE (Nimiz @ Jan 9 2008, 06:42 AM)
wow im suppsrised DC havent smelled the Word dragon yet.
You spoke too soon, but this is all just a rehash.
QUOTE (BIGK1974 @ Jan 8 2008, 03:12 PM)
Alright, I know this topic has been covered before, but I would like to revive it to put my 2 cents worth in.
Dragons did exist, just not as we know them in mythology. I have a theory that would very easily explain the legends of dragons throughout the world.
What if dinosaurs were around alot longer than people think. Not as a dominant species, but a few straggling species here and there. What if they existed not only into the age of man, but into the age of written history.
Primitives would see these giant, long necked, long tailed lizards, and not knowing at the time what they were, created fantastic tales about them. Adding embelishments such as breathing fire, flying, etc. They would hunt these unknown evil creatures down, and kill them, eating the meat, and using the bone for tools, weapons, etc., leaving nothing of the creature behind. Except of course for the fantastic tale that they tell their children about the giant, evil monster that nearly killed them with fire from it's mouth, before they were lucky enough to kill it first. From this, the legend of dragons were born. Which also explains why, throughout the world, legends of dragons exist on all continents, and have different characteristics. Also, add in the fact that as humans started building, and changing their lanscapes around them, that they would find remains of dinosaurs, much like we do today, and again, the only explanation for them is the stories of the giant, firebreathing, flying, rampaging creatures that were told to them by their grandfathers.
What do you think?
Dragons did exist, just not as we know them in mythology. I have a theory that would very easily explain the legends of dragons throughout the world.
What if dinosaurs were around alot longer than people think. Not as a dominant species, but a few straggling species here and there. What if they existed not only into the age of man, but into the age of written history.
Primitives would see these giant, long necked, long tailed lizards, and not knowing at the time what they were, created fantastic tales about them. Adding embelishments such as breathing fire, flying, etc. They would hunt these unknown evil creatures down, and kill them, eating the meat, and using the bone for tools, weapons, etc., leaving nothing of the creature behind. Except of course for the fantastic tale that they tell their children about the giant, evil monster that nearly killed them with fire from it's mouth, before they were lucky enough to kill it first. From this, the legend of dragons were born. Which also explains why, throughout the world, legends of dragons exist on all continents, and have different characteristics. Also, add in the fact that as humans started building, and changing their lanscapes around them, that they would find remains of dinosaurs, much like we do today, and again, the only explanation for them is the stories of the giant, firebreathing, flying, rampaging creatures that were told to them by their grandfathers.
What do you think?
What I think is that you have been playing too much Dungeons and Dragons, and really know nothing about mankind's earliest dragon legends from the earliest civilisations. In the most ancient times dragons were universally considered mankind's gods, our ancestors crediting them with bringing them laws and technology. The God of Christianity, Yaw, was a dragon, and most other ancient God have dragon origins as well.
It was basically only the most ignorant barbarians who regarded dragons as evil, and dreamed up nonsensical dragon slaying tails. In fact it was only when the former 'ignorant barbarians' of western europe controlled the Catholic Church that the theology was changed and dragons became evil, and no longer rermembered as the highest heavenly creatures.
Only an idiot or D&D player would imagine ancient man could actually kill such creatures if they existed. Scientists tell us that if dinosaurs did not become exitinct, mankind would have never developed. The fact that there are dragon slaying legends only means people knew how to lie back then, just as they do today. And what would be a greater lie, or boast than to claim some human hero killed what was once believed to be a god?
Archaeology has extensively excavated virtually all ancient civilizations and man early man sites. If humans killed dragons as you fantasize, we would have found evidence by now. We find every other kind of bone in their trash pits, and if a dragon had been killed it remains would progably have been preserved and found in graves, like claws and teeth.
In fact if the dragons had normal lifespans, and died like normal creatures, millions would have had to have lived and died and left remains from the KT event until the time mankind wrote about dragons, yet not a single piece of dragon has been found, and things like teeth never disentigrate.
If dragons existed, they had to have possessed intelligence beyond that of other non human animals, and deliberately decided to allow mankind to live. Possibly they are some kind of 'enhanced' reptiles put here by a Creator to protect early man, as the the most ancient legends/religions attest. And perhaps they still watch us, and are the shadowy cryptids people still regularly see, but scientists cannot capture, because they are too arrogant to believe the creatures they seek may be superior in intellect to them.
OK, I'm going to assume some people on here actually believed dragons existed as told by ancient races of people. Massive flying reptiles with human intelligence. We'll leave out the other embellishments.
First off, the largest reptiles lived/live in warm, tropical regions and are semiaquatic. Reptiles are cold-blooded and therefore large reptiles do not live up mountains or in the north, where barbarians lived. Reptiles are cold-blooded and do not have the metabolism to be able to survive actively all year round in a cold environment, and also do not have the metabolism to be active land predators.
Second, Earth-born vertebrates have four working limbs. Their DNA since they first evolved has only been encoded to deal with four limbs. This includes bone structure, musculature, enervation, and the appropriate brain size/proportion/region to deal with them. If you see more than four limbs on a vertebrate, they are not functional, they are simply overcopied bits of genetic code. To imagine that six-limbed giant reptiles roamed the earth without any six-limbed small predecessors is perfectly ridiculous by scientific standards.
Third, reptiles and other cold-blooded creatures have nothing on mammalian intelligence. Crocodiles come the closest, but though they care for their young they are primarily instinctive and their problem solving abilities are pretty much nonexistent. They can memorize their territories well and recognize patterns in how their prey move around, but this, again, is instinct-driven. There are many THEORIES about crocodiles having problem-solving abilities and even communication beyond that of your usual beast, but no hard evidence, and by this I mean formal experiments and not just observation in the field. Sharks have demonstrated problem-solving, but they are fish, and measurements taken of many species indicate some degree of endothermy.
As for the Bible accounts... the Bible is a great story, but I don't take it as anything more than that. Keep in mind that the Old Testament is like 4000 years old and religious leaders have decided that it's not to be taken literally. If you literally believe in the dragons there as dragons and not uneducated and embellished views of ordinary creatures, that's fine and dandy, but show me evidence that they're not.
And as for the WORD dragon, there's no reason to believe that it always refers to an intelligent, huge, reptile and the word used isn't just the word for giant beast. Translations are always interpretations, and often the translation is not as precise as it should be.
First off, the largest reptiles lived/live in warm, tropical regions and are semiaquatic. Reptiles are cold-blooded and therefore large reptiles do not live up mountains or in the north, where barbarians lived. Reptiles are cold-blooded and do not have the metabolism to be able to survive actively all year round in a cold environment, and also do not have the metabolism to be active land predators.
Second, Earth-born vertebrates have four working limbs. Their DNA since they first evolved has only been encoded to deal with four limbs. This includes bone structure, musculature, enervation, and the appropriate brain size/proportion/region to deal with them. If you see more than four limbs on a vertebrate, they are not functional, they are simply overcopied bits of genetic code. To imagine that six-limbed giant reptiles roamed the earth without any six-limbed small predecessors is perfectly ridiculous by scientific standards.
Third, reptiles and other cold-blooded creatures have nothing on mammalian intelligence. Crocodiles come the closest, but though they care for their young they are primarily instinctive and their problem solving abilities are pretty much nonexistent. They can memorize their territories well and recognize patterns in how their prey move around, but this, again, is instinct-driven. There are many THEORIES about crocodiles having problem-solving abilities and even communication beyond that of your usual beast, but no hard evidence, and by this I mean formal experiments and not just observation in the field. Sharks have demonstrated problem-solving, but they are fish, and measurements taken of many species indicate some degree of endothermy.
As for the Bible accounts... the Bible is a great story, but I don't take it as anything more than that. Keep in mind that the Old Testament is like 4000 years old and religious leaders have decided that it's not to be taken literally. If you literally believe in the dragons there as dragons and not uneducated and embellished views of ordinary creatures, that's fine and dandy, but show me evidence that they're not.
And as for the WORD dragon, there's no reason to believe that it always refers to an intelligent, huge, reptile and the word used isn't just the word for giant beast. Translations are always interpretations, and often the translation is not as precise as it should be.
QUOTE (makaya325 @ Jan 8 2008, 05:04 PM)
i just saw a "dragon" today. turned out, it was what i expected, a bird.
anyway, even though the fossil record isnt complete, we shouldnt expect to find 50 ft long creatures with wings. a dragon that weighs a couple tons couldnt lift off the ground and stay in the air. their very well might be smaller extinct animals that mightve lifted off the ground for a second or so, but not a 10 ton avian predator.
anyway, even though the fossil record isnt complete, we shouldnt expect to find 50 ft long creatures with wings. a dragon that weighs a couple tons couldnt lift off the ground and stay in the air. their very well might be smaller extinct animals that mightve lifted off the ground for a second or so, but not a 10 ton avian predator.
Uh, no where in the post above has anyone claimed that "dragons" could actually fly. Read it again, more carefully.
OMG, did you actually read what this post was about before you started with your post?? Let me clarify the point of my topic.
[quote name='draconic chronicler' post='2085228' date='Jan 9 2008, 08:49 AM']What I think is that you have been playing too much Dungeons and Dragons, and really know nothing about mankind's earliest dragon legends from the earliest civilisations. In the most ancient times dragons were universally considered mankind's gods, our ancestors crediting them with bringing them laws and technology. The God of Christianity, Yaw, was a dragon, and most other ancient God have dragon origins as well.
So your telling me that you would rather believe that dragons were actually ancient gods, than explained as dinosours left over after their supposed extinction?? And you say that I'm the D&D freak??[/font]
It was basically only the most ignorant barbarians who regarded dragons as evil, and dreamed up nonsensical dragon slaying tails. In fact it was only when the former 'ignorant barbarians' of western europe controlled the Catholic Church that the theology was changed and dragons became evil, and no longer rermembered as the highest heavenly creatures.
[font="Arial Black"]I myself never claimed that "dragons" were evil. I said that ancient men made up tales of these "dragons" as being evil.
Only an idiot or D&D player would imagine ancient man could actually kill such creatures if they existed. Scientists tell us that if dinosaurs did not become exitinct, mankind would have never developed. The fact that there are dragon slaying legends only means people knew how to lie back then, just as they do today. And what would be a greater lie, or boast than to claim some human hero killed what was once believed to be a god?
Yeah, ancient man would have trouble killing a dragon, if the fairy tales of fire-breathing, flying, intelligent creatures were true. However, a tribe of men would have only slight trouble bringing down a dinosaur. And like you even stated above, not all human's believed they were gods.[/font]
Archaeology has extensively excavated virtually all ancient civilizations and man early man sites. If humans killed dragons as you fantasize, we would have found evidence by now. We find every other kind of bone in their trash pits, and if a dragon had been killed it remains would progably have been preserved and found in graves, like claws and teeth.
[font="Arial Black"]I never claimed that humans killed dragons. I said they possibly killed off the remnants of the last few dinoaurs, and not knowing what they were, created legends of dragons. As for remains, hm, there seem to be an awful of dinosaur skeltons in museums, and more being discoverd all the time for there to be no remains, as you claim.[/font]
In fact if the dragons had normal lifespans, and died like normal creatures, millions would have had to have lived and died and left remains from the KT event until the time mankind wrote about dragons, yet not a single piece of dragon has been found, and things like teeth never disentigrate.
[font="Arial Black"]See what I posted above.[/font]
If dragons existed, they had to have possessed intelligence beyond that of other non human animals, and deliberately decided to allow mankind to live. Possibly they are some kind of 'enhanced' reptiles put here by a Creator to protect early man, as the the most ancient legends/religions attest. And perhaps they still watch us, and are the shadowy cryptids people still regularly see, but scientists cannot capture, because they are too arrogant to believe the creatures they seek may be superior in intellect to them.
[font="Arial Black"]Wow. This is the most ignorant statement of all. So now your saying that these dragons(which were actually just a few leftover dinosaurs) had to be intelligent, when science has shown that dinosaurs were some of the most unintelligent creatures to ever walk the planet??
Get the idea of the fairy tale dragons out of your head!! I am putting forth a reasonable explanation for a mythological creature, and you want to seem to defend the mythological portion of it. I am not saying that dragons as we know them in legends and fairy tales ever existed!! I am saying
some dinosaurs lived into the age of man, and early man, not knowing what these creatures were, spawned the legend and MYTH of dragons as we know them today!! Seriously, read the posts and understand what the author is trying to say before you come in and try to discredit them with
childish insults and fantasies of your own!![/quote]
[quote name='draconic chronicler' post='2085228' date='Jan 9 2008, 08:49 AM']What I think is that you have been playing too much Dungeons and Dragons, and really know nothing about mankind's earliest dragon legends from the earliest civilisations. In the most ancient times dragons were universally considered mankind's gods, our ancestors crediting them with bringing them laws and technology. The God of Christianity, Yaw, was a dragon, and most other ancient God have dragon origins as well.
So your telling me that you would rather believe that dragons were actually ancient gods, than explained as dinosours left over after their supposed extinction?? And you say that I'm the D&D freak??[/font]
It was basically only the most ignorant barbarians who regarded dragons as evil, and dreamed up nonsensical dragon slaying tails. In fact it was only when the former 'ignorant barbarians' of western europe controlled the Catholic Church that the theology was changed and dragons became evil, and no longer rermembered as the highest heavenly creatures.
[font="Arial Black"]I myself never claimed that "dragons" were evil. I said that ancient men made up tales of these "dragons" as being evil.
Only an idiot or D&D player would imagine ancient man could actually kill such creatures if they existed. Scientists tell us that if dinosaurs did not become exitinct, mankind would have never developed. The fact that there are dragon slaying legends only means people knew how to lie back then, just as they do today. And what would be a greater lie, or boast than to claim some human hero killed what was once believed to be a god?
Yeah, ancient man would have trouble killing a dragon, if the fairy tales of fire-breathing, flying, intelligent creatures were true. However, a tribe of men would have only slight trouble bringing down a dinosaur. And like you even stated above, not all human's believed they were gods.[/font]
Archaeology has extensively excavated virtually all ancient civilizations and man early man sites. If humans killed dragons as you fantasize, we would have found evidence by now. We find every other kind of bone in their trash pits, and if a dragon had been killed it remains would progably have been preserved and found in graves, like claws and teeth.
[font="Arial Black"]I never claimed that humans killed dragons. I said they possibly killed off the remnants of the last few dinoaurs, and not knowing what they were, created legends of dragons. As for remains, hm, there seem to be an awful of dinosaur skeltons in museums, and more being discoverd all the time for there to be no remains, as you claim.[/font]
In fact if the dragons had normal lifespans, and died like normal creatures, millions would have had to have lived and died and left remains from the KT event until the time mankind wrote about dragons, yet not a single piece of dragon has been found, and things like teeth never disentigrate.
[font="Arial Black"]See what I posted above.[/font]
If dragons existed, they had to have possessed intelligence beyond that of other non human animals, and deliberately decided to allow mankind to live. Possibly they are some kind of 'enhanced' reptiles put here by a Creator to protect early man, as the the most ancient legends/religions attest. And perhaps they still watch us, and are the shadowy cryptids people still regularly see, but scientists cannot capture, because they are too arrogant to believe the creatures they seek may be superior in intellect to them.
[font="Arial Black"]Wow. This is the most ignorant statement of all. So now your saying that these dragons(which were actually just a few leftover dinosaurs) had to be intelligent, when science has shown that dinosaurs were some of the most unintelligent creatures to ever walk the planet??
Get the idea of the fairy tale dragons out of your head!! I am putting forth a reasonable explanation for a mythological creature, and you want to seem to defend the mythological portion of it. I am not saying that dragons as we know them in legends and fairy tales ever existed!! I am saying
some dinosaurs lived into the age of man, and early man, not knowing what these creatures were, spawned the legend and MYTH of dragons as we know them today!! Seriously, read the posts and understand what the author is trying to say before you come in and try to discredit them with
childish insults and fantasies of your own!![/quote]
QUOTE (BIGK1974 @ Jan 9 2008, 09:05 AM)
OMG, did you actually read what this post was about before you started with your post?? Let me clarify the point of my topic.
quote name='draconic chronicler' post='2085228' date='Jan 9 2008, 08:49 AM What I think is that you have been playing too much Dungeons and Dragons, and really know nothing about mankind's earliest dragon legends from the earliest civilisations. In the most ancient times dragons were universally considered mankind's gods, our ancestors crediting them with bringing them laws and technology. The God of Christianity, Yaw, was a dragon, and most other ancient God have dragon origins as well.
[font="Arial Black"][color="#FF0000"]So your telling me that you would rather believe that dragons were actually ancient gods, than explained as dinosours left over after their supposed extinction?? And you say that I'm the D&D freak??
It was basically only the most ignorant barbarians who regarded dragons as evil, and dreamed up nonsensical dragon slaying tails. In fact it was only when the former 'ignorant barbarians' of western europe controlled the Catholic Church that the theology was changed and dragons became evil, and no longer rermembered as the highest heavenly creatures.
I myself never claimed that "dragons" were evil. I said that ancient men made up tales of these "dragons" as being evil.
Only an idiot or D&D player would imagine ancient man could actually kill such creatures if they existed. Scientists tell us that if dinosaurs did not become exitinct, mankind would have never developed. The fact that there are dragon slaying legends only means people knew how to lie back then, just as they do today. And what would be a greater lie, or boast than to claim some human hero killed what was once believed to be a god?
Yeah, ancient man would have trouble killing a dragon, if the fairy tales of fire-breathing, flying, intelligent creatures were true. However, a tribe of men would have only slight trouble bringing down a dinosaur. And like you even stated above, not all human's believed they were gods.
Archaeology has extensively excavated virtually all ancient civilizations and man early man sites. If humans killed dragons as you fantasize, we would have found evidence by now. We find every other kind of bone in their trash pits, and if a dragon had been killed it remains would progably have been preserved and found in graves, like claws and teeth.
I never claimed that humans killed dragons. I said they possibly killed off the remnants of the last few dinoaurs, and not knowing what they were, created legends of dragons. As for remains, hm, there seem to be an awful of dinosaur skeltons in museums, and more being discoverd all the time for there to be no remains, as you claim.
In fact if the dragons had normal lifespans, and died like normal creatures, millions would have had to have lived and died and left remains from the KT event until the time mankind wrote about dragons, yet not a single piece of dragon has been found, and things like teeth never disentigrate.
If dragons existed, they had to have possessed intelligence beyond that of other non human animals, and deliberately decided to allow mankind to live. Possibly they are some kind of 'enhanced' reptiles put here by a Creator to protect early man, as the the most ancient legends/religions attest. And perhaps they still watch us, and are the shadowy cryptids people still regularly see, but scientists cannot capture, because they are too arrogant to believe the creatures they seek may be superior in intellect to them.
Wow. This is the most ignorant statement of all. So now your saying that these dragons(which were actually just a few leftover dinosaurs) had to be intelligent, when science has shown that dinosaurs were some of the most unintelligent creatures to ever walk the planet??
Get the idea of the fairy tale dragons out of your head!! I am putting forth a reasonable explanation for a mythological creature, and you want to seem to defend the mythological portion of it. I am not saying that dragons as we know them in legends and fairy tales ever existed!! I am saying
some dinosaurs lived into the age of man, and early man, not knowing what these creatures were, spawned the legend and MYTH of dragons as we know them today!! Seriously, read the posts and understand what the author is trying to say before you come in and try to discredit them with
childish insults and fantasies of your own
quote name='draconic chronicler' post='2085228' date='Jan 9 2008, 08:49 AM What I think is that you have been playing too much Dungeons and Dragons, and really know nothing about mankind's earliest dragon legends from the earliest civilisations. In the most ancient times dragons were universally considered mankind's gods, our ancestors crediting them with bringing them laws and technology. The God of Christianity, Yaw, was a dragon, and most other ancient God have dragon origins as well.
[font="Arial Black"][color="#FF0000"]So your telling me that you would rather believe that dragons were actually ancient gods, than explained as dinosours left over after their supposed extinction?? And you say that I'm the D&D freak??
It was basically only the most ignorant barbarians who regarded dragons as evil, and dreamed up nonsensical dragon slaying tails. In fact it was only when the former 'ignorant barbarians' of western europe controlled the Catholic Church that the theology was changed and dragons became evil, and no longer rermembered as the highest heavenly creatures.
I myself never claimed that "dragons" were evil. I said that ancient men made up tales of these "dragons" as being evil.
Only an idiot or D&D player would imagine ancient man could actually kill such creatures if they existed. Scientists tell us that if dinosaurs did not become exitinct, mankind would have never developed. The fact that there are dragon slaying legends only means people knew how to lie back then, just as they do today. And what would be a greater lie, or boast than to claim some human hero killed what was once believed to be a god?
Yeah, ancient man would have trouble killing a dragon, if the fairy tales of fire-breathing, flying, intelligent creatures were true. However, a tribe of men would have only slight trouble bringing down a dinosaur. And like you even stated above, not all human's believed they were gods.
Archaeology has extensively excavated virtually all ancient civilizations and man early man sites. If humans killed dragons as you fantasize, we would have found evidence by now. We find every other kind of bone in their trash pits, and if a dragon had been killed it remains would progably have been preserved and found in graves, like claws and teeth.
I never claimed that humans killed dragons. I said they possibly killed off the remnants of the last few dinoaurs, and not knowing what they were, created legends of dragons. As for remains, hm, there seem to be an awful of dinosaur skeltons in museums, and more being discoverd all the time for there to be no remains, as you claim.
In fact if the dragons had normal lifespans, and died like normal creatures, millions would have had to have lived and died and left remains from the KT event until the time mankind wrote about dragons, yet not a single piece of dragon has been found, and things like teeth never disentigrate.
If dragons existed, they had to have possessed intelligence beyond that of other non human animals, and deliberately decided to allow mankind to live. Possibly they are some kind of 'enhanced' reptiles put here by a Creator to protect early man, as the the most ancient legends/religions attest. And perhaps they still watch us, and are the shadowy cryptids people still regularly see, but scientists cannot capture, because they are too arrogant to believe the creatures they seek may be superior in intellect to them.
Wow. This is the most ignorant statement of all. So now your saying that these dragons(which were actually just a few leftover dinosaurs) had to be intelligent, when science has shown that dinosaurs were some of the most unintelligent creatures to ever walk the planet??
Get the idea of the fairy tale dragons out of your head!! I am putting forth a reasonable explanation for a mythological creature, and you want to seem to defend the mythological portion of it. I am not saying that dragons as we know them in legends and fairy tales ever existed!! I am saying
some dinosaurs lived into the age of man, and early man, not knowing what these creatures were, spawned the legend and MYTH of dragons as we know them today!! Seriously, read the posts and understand what the author is trying to say before you come in and try to discredit them with
childish insults and fantasies of your own
Then you have a pretty stupid theory because NO dinosaur remains have ever been found dated to AFTER the KT event. This and the fact the oldest legends all assign dragons as Gods or intelligent servants to Gods suggest these cannot be dinosaurs that they were in contact with. You only think your theory makes sense because you apparently don't understand that paleontologists are able to date all the dinosaur bones to before the KT extinction, so no human would have ever seen a 'normal' dinosaur.
And yes, you probably do have 'D&D fantasies' if you think ancient man could kill large carnivorous dinosaurs that may have spawned "dragon legends". If they were still around after the KT event, there never would have been people -- unless something we do not know about inhibited such creatures from wiping out the human race, like they though humans tasted bad.
I said that these 'dragons' that our ancestors worshipped may have had a common ancestry with dinosaurs just as we do with monkeys (both primates), I did not say that the dinosaurs we have found fossils of were intelligent.
This has nothing to do with 'fairy tales'. Virtually every human culture believed in giant intelligent reptiles that brought them laws and technologies, so this does not fit your theory that normal, stupid dinosaurs spawned the dragon legends. You simply don't know what you are talking about. You have only the most basic knowledge of dragon legends that apparently stem from the relatively late, European fairy tales you like to bring up. If these 'dragons' were simply stupid dinosaurs they would not have been regarded as Gods that brought mankind its technologies, and we would find some physical evidence from the past 65 million years, yet there is none. So like it or not, the only explanation has to be a supernatural one........ or our ancestors were so stupid that they thought their gods were dragons just because they found some old bones. But that is really a stretch. Our same ancestors who believed in dragon gods were remarkable architects, astronmers and mathematicians. I don't think they would have worshipped bones, and there is now way they would have even known these were the bones of reptiles.
QUOTE (ravergirl @ Jan 8 2008, 11:19 PM)
I wouldn't exactly discount them either. there maybe some controversy on the Jesus story and why not, but the bible wasn't written by one guy in a day. that is a lot of mentions over several thousand years.
we know it wasnt written by one guy in a day. it was written by many, years after jesus died. some who didnt even meet him apparently. plus many of the stories are fiction (or just exagerated from actual events).
but back on topic. not sure about the existance of dragons. since you tend to only hear about them in stories. and theres no proof backing them up. like dinos, we have fossils.
not to upset any one with the off kilter theory but
a ufo or meteor/comet could make the flyng serpent look and an impact could be the fire breathing.
actually thinking of it as a comet [rune dragon?] it may have caused astronomy [a major in sun worship] and thus opened/given us our knowledge.
we are talking about millenias of interpretation mistranslations and assumptions so even if they do exist as big lizards or gods they may not be what we expect innthe long run.
a ufo or meteor/comet could make the flyng serpent look and an impact could be the fire breathing.
actually thinking of it as a comet [rune dragon?] it may have caused astronomy [a major in sun worship] and thus opened/given us our knowledge.
we are talking about millenias of interpretation mistranslations and assumptions so even if they do exist as big lizards or gods they may not be what we expect innthe long run.
QUOTE (Agent. Mulder @ Jan 9 2008, 08:21 PM)
we know it wasnt written by one guy in a day. it was written by many, years after jesus died. some who didnt even meet him apparently. plus many of the stories are fiction (or just exagerated from actual events).
but back on topic. not sure about the existance of dragons. since you tend to only hear about them in stories. and theres no proof backing them up. like dinos, we have fossils.
but back on topic. not sure about the existance of dragons. since you tend to only hear about them in stories. and theres no proof backing them up. like dinos, we have fossils.
oh really. so you think that maybe just maybe they got the make up of one or many of them wrong since only the parts that could be fossilized survived? maybe just maybe a dinosaur is a dragon?
and the bible was not written many years after jesus died. it was put together many years before jesus died.
Psalms was basically a song book written by an ancestor of Jesus (i call him King David) and Song of Solomon is a musings book of another king. you don't think they could chronicle their own histories..oh wait is that ,maybe, what 1st and 2nd Chronicles did?
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans are letters as are almost all of the new testament. so they had to be brought back together. and yeah Jesus died and he had followers and those followers went into the world and taught what they were taught and probably wrote letters to each other. i don't think that is that big of a stretch, and if it is to heavy to believe that it might have happened like that then you are purposely avoiding the possibility that these people existed, which, if they didn't exist then why is it so important to deny their existance.
QUOTE (ravergirl @ Jan 9 2008, 08:36 PM)
oh really. so you think that maybe just maybe they got the make up of one or many of them wrong since only the parts that could be fossilized survived? maybe just maybe a dinosaur is a dragon?
and the bible was not written many years after jesus died. it was put together many years before jesus died.
Psalms was basically a song book written by an ancestor of Jesus (i call him King David) and Song of Solomon is a musings book of another king. you don't think they could chronicle their own histories..oh wait is that ,maybe, what 1st and 2nd Chronicles did?
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans are letters as are almost all of the new testament. so they had to be brought back together. and yeah Jesus died and he had followers and those followers went into the world and taught what they were taught and probably wrote letters to each other. i don't think that is that big of a stretch, and if it is to heavy to believe that it might have happened like that then you are purposely avoiding the possibility that these people existed, which, if they didn't exist then why is it so important to deny their existance.
and the bible was not written many years after jesus died. it was put together many years before jesus died.
Psalms was basically a song book written by an ancestor of Jesus (i call him King David) and Song of Solomon is a musings book of another king. you don't think they could chronicle their own histories..oh wait is that ,maybe, what 1st and 2nd Chronicles did?
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans are letters as are almost all of the new testament. so they had to be brought back together. and yeah Jesus died and he had followers and those followers went into the world and taught what they were taught and probably wrote letters to each other. i don't think that is that big of a stretch, and if it is to heavy to believe that it might have happened like that then you are purposely avoiding the possibility that these people existed, which, if they didn't exist then why is it so important to deny their existance.
please do me a HUUUGE favour and point out in my post, where i said the characters didnt exist. go for it. ill wait
and if youd take some history classes youd know what im talking about, and how it was written after he died. because people wanted to continue what he taught them.
and ive thought some dino fossils could have been dragons before. its just they dont find anything leaning towards that.
But maybe, just MAYBE, oh Lord, just Maybe, these dragons lives in that time, and thats why theyre talked about in the bible. even though we've found no evidence of them, at all. and we should have if it was so recent.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Jan 9 2008, 03:03 PM)
Then you have a pretty stupid theory because NO dinosaur remains have ever been found dated to AFTER the KT event. This and the fact the oldest legends all assign dragons as Gods or intelligent servants to Gods suggest these cannot be dinosaurs that they were in contact with. You only think your theory makes sense because you apparently don't understand that paleontologists are able to date all the dinosaur bones to before the KT extinction, so no human would have ever seen a 'normal' dinosaur.
And yes, you probably do have 'D&D fantasies' if you think ancient man could kill large carnivorous dinosaurs that may have spawned "dragon legends". If they were still around after the KT event, there never would have been people -- unless something we do not know about inhibited such creatures from wiping out the human race, like they though humans tasted bad.
I said that these 'dragons' that our ancestors worshipped may have had a common ancestry with dinosaurs just as we do with monkeys (both primates), I did not say that the dinosaurs we have found fossils of were intelligent.
This has nothing to do with 'fairy tales'. Virtually every human culture believed in giant intelligent reptiles that brought them laws and technologies, so this does not fit your theory that normal, stupid dinosaurs spawned the dragon legends. You simply don't know what you are talking about. You have only the most basic knowledge of dragon legends that apparently stem from the relatively late, European fairy tales you like to bring up. If these 'dragons' were simply stupid dinosaurs they would not have been regarded as Gods that brought mankind its technologies, and we would find some physical evidence from the past 65 million years, yet there is none. So like it or not, the only explanation has to be a supernatural one........ or our ancestors were so stupid that they thought their gods were dragons just because they found some old bones. But that is really a stretch. Our same ancestors who believed in dragon gods were remarkable architects, astronmers and mathematicians. I don't think they would have worshipped bones, and there is now way they would have even known these were the bones of reptiles.
And yes, you probably do have 'D&D fantasies' if you think ancient man could kill large carnivorous dinosaurs that may have spawned "dragon legends". If they were still around after the KT event, there never would have been people -- unless something we do not know about inhibited such creatures from wiping out the human race, like they though humans tasted bad.
I said that these 'dragons' that our ancestors worshipped may have had a common ancestry with dinosaurs just as we do with monkeys (both primates), I did not say that the dinosaurs we have found fossils of were intelligent.
This has nothing to do with 'fairy tales'. Virtually every human culture believed in giant intelligent reptiles that brought them laws and technologies, so this does not fit your theory that normal, stupid dinosaurs spawned the dragon legends. You simply don't know what you are talking about. You have only the most basic knowledge of dragon legends that apparently stem from the relatively late, European fairy tales you like to bring up. If these 'dragons' were simply stupid dinosaurs they would not have been regarded as Gods that brought mankind its technologies, and we would find some physical evidence from the past 65 million years, yet there is none. So like it or not, the only explanation has to be a supernatural one........ or our ancestors were so stupid that they thought their gods were dragons just because they found some old bones. But that is really a stretch. Our same ancestors who believed in dragon gods were remarkable architects, astronmers and mathematicians. I don't think they would have worshipped bones, and there is now way they would have even known these were the bones of reptiles.
OMG, you are actually talking about dragons as if they really did exist, and really were gods. Why are you defending myth?? Like I said, I am offering POSSIBLE rational explanation for a MYTH, and you seem to actually believe these MYTHS existed, and ar defending them. They are fairy tales!! They did not exist!! And you sit there and insult me and say that I don't know what I am talking about?? That I am a D&D freak?? Your the one who seems emersed in a mythological world, surrounding yourself in legends, and defending them as if they were real.
Oh, and about the KT event, another dam THEORY, NOT fact, as you seem to be under the impression that it is. And the oldest legends do not ALL assign dragons as gods. And if you actually believe that ancient man was in contact with some type of intelligent lizard, the you seriously need to get off the computer, get out of your recliner, and step out into the real world. I cannot actually believe that someone is actually defending a myth. Where did you get all your information from?? Did Zeus tell you about it over dinner last night?? Or perhaps it was Medusa in bed last night, heh??
QUOTE (Agent. Mulder @ Jan 9 2008, 08:46 PM)
please do me a HUUUGE favour and point out in my post, where i said the characters didnt exist. go for it. ill wait
and if youd take some history classes youd know what im talking about, and how it was written after he died. because people wanted to continue what he taught them.
and ive thought some dino fossils could have been dragons before. its just they dont find anything leaning towards that.
But maybe, just MAYBE, oh Lord, just Maybe, these dragons lives in that time, and thats why theyre talked about in the bible. even though we've found no evidence of them, at all. and we should have if it was so recent.
and if youd take some history classes youd know what im talking about, and how it was written after he died. because people wanted to continue what he taught them.
and ive thought some dino fossils could have been dragons before. its just they dont find anything leaning towards that.
But maybe, just MAYBE, oh Lord, just Maybe, these dragons lives in that time, and thats why theyre talked about in the bible. even though we've found no evidence of them, at all. and we should have if it was so recent.
please do ME a Huge favor and point out where I was ONLY talking to you. go ahead I'll wait and then we can meet in the middle and go at the same time...ready...set....go
It was not written after HE died because the bible is more than the New Testament. The old Testament is much older.
Who is "they?" are "they" the same "theys" that have all of the evidence and dole it out as they see fit to allow us to believe only what they believe. I don't believe "they" know everything, and that sometimes the proof we seek is intentionally kept from us. Both limiting our knowledge of the truth and allowing us to believe in things that we can't see. I think it is healthy to question things, and extreemly unhealthy to believe ONLY if there is proof. and besides there have to be some people to do the prooving.
QUOTE (Nik Xues @ Jan 9 2008, 03:32 PM)
not to upset any one with the off kilter theory but
a ufo or meteor/comet could make the flyng serpent look and an impact could be the fire breathing.
actually thinking of it as a comet [rune dragon?] it may have caused astronomy [a major in sun worship] and thus opened/given us our knowledge.
we are talking about millenias of interpretation mistranslations and assumptions so even if they do exist as big lizards or gods they may not be what we expect innthe long run.
a ufo or meteor/comet could make the flyng serpent look and an impact could be the fire breathing.
actually thinking of it as a comet [rune dragon?] it may have caused astronomy [a major in sun worship] and thus opened/given us our knowledge.
we are talking about millenias of interpretation mistranslations and assumptions so even if they do exist as big lizards or gods they may not be what we expect innthe long run.
millenia of assumptions and mistransations?? Kind of like the earth being flat??
Humans tend to thrive on assumptions, even when the truth is right in front of their face.
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Jan 9 2008, 03:03 PM)
Then you have a pretty stupid theory because NO dinosaur remains have ever been found dated to AFTER the KT event. This and the fact the oldest legends all assign dragons as Gods or intelligent servants to Gods suggest these cannot be dinosaurs that they were in contact with. You only think your theory makes sense because you apparently don't understand that paleontologists are able to date all the dinosaur bones to before the KT extinction, so no human would have ever seen a 'normal' dinosaur.
And yes, you probably do have 'D&D fantasies' if you think ancient man could kill large carnivorous dinosaurs that may have spawned "dragon legends". If they were still around after the KT event, there never would have been people -- unless something we do not know about inhibited such creatures from wiping out the human race, like they though humans tasted bad.
I said that these 'dragons' that our ancestors worshipped may have had a common ancestry with dinosaurs just as we do with monkeys (both primates), I did not say that the dinosaurs we have found fossils of were intelligent.
This has nothing to do with 'fairy tales'. Virtually every human culture believed in giant intelligent reptiles that brought them laws and technologies, so this does not fit your theory that normal, stupid dinosaurs spawned the dragon legends. You simply don't know what you are talking about. You have only the most basic knowledge of dragon legends that apparently stem from the relatively late, European fairy tales you like to bring up. If these 'dragons' were simply stupid dinosaurs they would not have been regarded as Gods that brought mankind its technologies, and we would find some physical evidence from the past 65 million years, yet there is none. So like it or not, the only explanation has to be a supernatural one........ or our ancestors were so stupid that they thought their gods were dragons just because they found some old bones. But that is really a stretch. Our same ancestors who believed in dragon gods were remarkable architects, astronmers and mathematicians. I don't think they would have worshipped bones, and there is now way they would have even known these were the bones of reptiles.
And yes, you probably do have 'D&D fantasies' if you think ancient man could kill large carnivorous dinosaurs that may have spawned "dragon legends". If they were still around after the KT event, there never would have been people -- unless something we do not know about inhibited such creatures from wiping out the human race, like they though humans tasted bad.
I said that these 'dragons' that our ancestors worshipped may have had a common ancestry with dinosaurs just as we do with monkeys (both primates), I did not say that the dinosaurs we have found fossils of were intelligent.
This has nothing to do with 'fairy tales'. Virtually every human culture believed in giant intelligent reptiles that brought them laws and technologies, so this does not fit your theory that normal, stupid dinosaurs spawned the dragon legends. You simply don't know what you are talking about. You have only the most basic knowledge of dragon legends that apparently stem from the relatively late, European fairy tales you like to bring up. If these 'dragons' were simply stupid dinosaurs they would not have been regarded as Gods that brought mankind its technologies, and we would find some physical evidence from the past 65 million years, yet there is none. So like it or not, the only explanation has to be a supernatural one........ or our ancestors were so stupid that they thought their gods were dragons just because they found some old bones. But that is really a stretch. Our same ancestors who believed in dragon gods were remarkable architects, astronmers and mathematicians. I don't think they would have worshipped bones, and there is now way they would have even known these were the bones of reptiles.
The theory that giant, intelligent reptiles guided the human races is by far more stupid than the theory of remnant dinosaurs. And THAT'S a pretty stupid theory if you know your facts.
Please respond to my post if you want your "theory" to have any credibility whatsoever. Alien visitations giving these cultures technology are more like than giant flying reptiles. Again, stupid and unproven, but even less so than what you're proposing.
Our ancestors were not stupid, but neither were they educated. As you said yourself, they thought dinosaur bones were dragon bones. They even ground them up and tried to use them as medicine, THINKING THEY WERE SACRED. Since fossils are actually rock, and rock is neither sacred nor medicinal, you could call our ancestors pretty dumb for thinking that.
Those same architects and mathematicians also believed that females were far inferior to males in terms of intellect. They believed giant men were kings of the oceans. They were more than capable of writing fiction at that time, as demonstrated by the parables. They thought the earth was flat and that the world was created from scratch only a few thousand years ago. They thought the sun and all the planets revolved around the earth. They made many great discoveries, but it took them years of time and many mistakes to do so. And even when a discovery is made, interpretation and understanding it takes much longer.
So give us something more. A mention of a big reptilian creature in an old book and some drawings gives us nothing that points to dragons, and is inifinitely more likely to represent something else.
QUOTE (ravergirl @ Jan 9 2008, 08:53 PM)
please do ME a Huge favor and point out where I was ONLY talking to you. go ahead I'll wait and then we can meet in the middle and go at the same time...ready...set....go
It was not written after HE died because the bible is more than the New Testament. The old Testament is much older.
Who is "they?" are "they" the same "theys" that have all of the evidence and dole it out as they see fit to allow us to believe only what they believe. I don't believe "they" know everything, and that sometimes the proof we seek is intentionally kept from us. Both limiting our knowledge of the truth and allowing us to believe in things that we can't see. I think it is healthy to question things, and extreemly unhealthy to believe ONLY if there is proof. and besides there have to be some people to do the prooving.
It was not written after HE died because the bible is more than the New Testament. The old Testament is much older.
Who is "they?" are "they" the same "theys" that have all of the evidence and dole it out as they see fit to allow us to believe only what they believe. I don't believe "they" know everything, and that sometimes the proof we seek is intentionally kept from us. Both limiting our knowledge of the truth and allowing us to believe in things that we can't see. I think it is healthy to question things, and extreemly unhealthy to believe ONLY if there is proof. and besides there have to be some people to do the prooving.
uhh, lets see...oh, here it is.
when you quoted my post, then replied to it
ok, your turn. go
and yes is was written after he died. by his followers, trying to pass the word and his 'legacy' along to others.
and the proof we seek, is being kept from us? ....about dragons?
i mighta read that wrong though. or was it refering to the bible? or just everything.
QUOTE (Agent. Mulder @ Jan 9 2008, 03:57 PM)
uhh, lets see...oh, here it is.
when you quoted my post, then replied to it
ok, your turn. go
and yes is was written after he died. by his followers, trying to pass the word and his 'legacy' along to others.
and the proof we seek, is being kept from us? ....about dragons?
i mighta read that wrong though. or was it refering to the bible? or just everything.
when you quoted my post, then replied to it
ok, your turn. go
and yes is was written after he died. by his followers, trying to pass the word and his 'legacy' along to others.
and the proof we seek, is being kept from us? ....about dragons?
i mighta read that wrong though. or was it refering to the bible? or just everything.
The bible was is a collection of writings, from both before Jesus, and after. It was put together well after he died into what we know as the bible, but part written before, part after.
QUOTE (Agent. Mulder @ Jan 9 2008, 08:57 PM)
uhh, lets see...oh, here it is.
when you quoted my post, then replied to it
ok, your turn. go
and yes is was written after he died. by his followers, trying to pass the word and his 'legacy' along to others.
and the proof we seek, is being kept from us? ....about dragons?
i mighta read that wrong though. or was it refering to the bible? or just everything.
when you quoted my post, then replied to it
ok, your turn. go
and yes is was written after he died. by his followers, trying to pass the word and his 'legacy' along to others.
and the proof we seek, is being kept from us? ....about dragons?
i mighta read that wrong though. or was it refering to the bible? or just everything.
just because someone quotes someone doesn't mean that everything they say is directed directly at them, hence that this is forum not a PM. next time i will do it telegram style if it will make it easier.
the proof...who is "they" are they the "ologists" or the writers of the articles that we get our info from? or the scholars?
the bible...
QUOTE
The oldest copy is the Book of Isaiah, which is in Hebrew, and dates from about 100 B.C. It was found in a cave near Jericho in 1947, and is part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The oldest New Testament manuscripts we have date from approximately A.D. 350.
source-http://www.scborromeo.org/truth/b1.htm
QUOTE (BIGK1974 @ Jan 9 2008, 04:00 PM)
The bible was is a collection of writings, from both before Jesus, and after. It was put together well after he died into what we know as the bible, but part written before, part after.
And keep in mind that no tombs or records of these people have ever been found, at least not confirmed. Makes you wonder, if global communication is shut down and our civilization years from now finds Harry Potter, would the new "Leviathan" be a Hippogriff?
Think before you reply. =P
QUOTE (WraithGod @ Jan 9 2008, 04:06 PM)
And keep in mind that no tombs or records of these people have ever been found, at least not confirmed. Makes you wonder, if global communication is shut down and our civilization years from now finds Harry Potter, would the new "Leviathan" be a Hippogriff?
Think before you reply. =P
Think before you reply. =P
I agree completely. In a thousand years, for all we know, Scientology could be the dominant reigion in the world, and they would laugh at people who used to worship a zombie, and didn't believe in extra-terrestria life. Or, like you said, find some story book from the 20 century, and say that it was what people believed to be true back then.
QUOTE (WraithGod @ Jan 9 2008, 09:06 PM)
And keep in mind that no tombs or records of these people have ever been found, at least not confirmed. Makes you wonder, if global communication is shut down and our civilization years from now finds Harry Potter, would the new "Leviathan" be a Hippogriff?
Think before you reply. =P
Think before you reply. =P
they weren't all found in tombs. and the tomb of everyone that ever lived cannot be found. sorry to disappoint you but there have been way more people than found tombs, not everyone was all that important. and the earth has suffered some catastrophies, and people have caused their own.
QUOTE (ravergirl @ Jan 9 2008, 09:05 PM)
just because someone quotes someone doesn't mean that everything they say is directed directly at them, hence that this is forum not a PM. next time i will do it telegram style if it will make it easier.
the proof...who is "they" are they the "ologists" or the writers of the articles that we get our info from? or the scholars?
the bible...
source-http://www.scborromeo.org/truth/b1.htm
the proof...who is "they" are they the "ologists" or the writers of the articles that we get our info from? or the scholars?
the bible...
source-http://www.scborromeo.org/truth/b1.htm
youre right, my bad. when someone quotes me, and responds to my post, i should first assume that my statement has nothing to do with what they wrote. and assume that its for Everyone elses posts on here. they just decided to quote mine and talk to me for w/e reason.
good call
QUOTE (Agent. Mulder @ Jan 9 2008, 09:21 PM)
youre right, my bad. when someone quotes me, and responds to my post, i should first assume that my statement has nothing to do with what they wrote. and assume that its for Everyone elses posts on here. they just decided to quote mine and talk to me for w/e reason.
good call
good call
i did respond to you. just not only you.
I'm not going to sit here and split hairs with you, especially since I use conditioner to avoid split hairs in the first place.
i had something to say based on what you said not necessarily to you. there is a difference. im done. do you have an issue with my source stating that Isaiah in the old testament dates back before christ?
QUOTE (draconic chronicler @ Jan 9 2008, 08:49 AM)
What I think is that you have been playing too much Dungeons and Dragons, and really know nothing about mankind's earliest dragon legends from the earliest civilisations. In the most ancient times dragons were universally considered mankind's gods, our ancestors crediting them with bringing them laws and technology. The God of Christianity, Yaw, was a dragon, and most other ancient God have dragon origins as well.
It was basically only the most ignorant barbarians who regarded dragons as evil, and dreamed up nonsensical dragon slaying tails. In fact it was only when the former 'ignorant barbarians' of western europe controlled the Catholic Church that the theology was changed and dragons became evil, and no longer rermembered as the highest heavenly creatures.
It was basically only the most ignorant barbarians who regarded dragons as evil, and dreamed up nonsensical dragon slaying tails. In fact it was only when the former 'ignorant barbarians' of western europe controlled the Catholic Church that the theology was changed and dragons became evil, and no longer rermembered as the highest heavenly creatures.
You know, I've heard you say this so many times and never called you on it but there isn't a reputable scholar or archeologist out there that would agree with your interpretation. Yaw or more correctly Yam is not the semantic origin or Yaweh nor is he the mythical origin of the christian god nor was he depicted as always good. He isn't described directly as a dragon through his pet Lotan is. Lotan is the embodiment of detruction and is slain by Baal. Nor for that matter were most dragons/serpents from Caanite, Levanite, Mesopotamic or Sumerian cultures considered good. They were usually the destructive aspects of the sea and storms and were usually slain by heroes as far back as the 18th Century BC. This includes the Sumerian Zu who is the earliest example of anything we could call a dragon. Where is the archeological evidence you speak of? Dragons were considered evil by the Egyptians, Greeks and later the Romans as well, all stemming from these earlier mythologies.
QUOTE (capeo @ Jan 9 2008, 04:41 PM)
You know, I've heard you say this so many times and never called you on it but there isn't a reputable scholar or archeologist out there that would agree with your interpretation. Yaw or more correctly Yam is not the semantic origin or Yaweh nor is he the mythical origin of the christian god nor was he depicted as always good. He isn't described directly as a dragon through his pet Lotan is. Lotan is the embodiment of detruction and is slain by Baal. Nor for that matter were most dragons/serpents from Caanite, Levanite, Mesopotamic or Sumerian cultures considered good. They were usually the destructive aspects of the sea and storms and were usually slain by heroes as far back as the 18th Century BC. This includes the Sumerian Zu who is the earliest example of anything we could call a dragon. Where is the archeological evidence you speak of? Dragons were considered evil by the Egyptians, Greeks and later the Romans as well, all stemming from these earlier mythologies.
Not that I'm arguing for or against the dragon thing, but have you read the old testament? The christian god was by no means nice or kind (so whether he would be characterized as 'good' is debatable).
QUOTE (capeo @ Jan 9 2008, 04:41 PM)
You know, I've heard you say this so many times and never called you on it but there isn't a reputable scholar or archeologist out there that would agree with your interpretation. Yaw or more correctly Yam is not the semantic origin or Yaweh nor is he the mythical origin of the christian god nor was he depicted as always good. He isn't described directly as a dragon through his pet Lotan is. Lotan is the embodiment of detruction and is slain by Baal. Nor for that matter were most dragons/serpents from Caanite, Levanite, Mesopotamic or Sumerian cultures considered good. They were usually the destructive aspects of the sea and storms and were usually slain by heroes as far back as the 18th Century BC. This includes the Sumerian Zu who is the earliest example of anything we could call a dragon. Where is the archeological evidence you speak of? Dragons were considered evil by the Egyptians, Greeks and later the Romans as well, all stemming from these earlier mythologies.
Thank you. This guy seems emersed in his own little dragon world, and doesn't like it when people step on his little fantasy.
Where is DC at?? I'm surprised he hasn't jumped all over this topic yet. I'm sure the idea of 'Dragon' refers to some long extinct cryptid.
QUOTE (Nocturnal @ Jan 9 2008, 04:46 PM)
Not that I'm arguing for or against the dragon thing, but have you read the old testament? The christian god was by no means nice or kind (so whether he would be characterized as 'good' is debatable).
Such a characterization doesn't matter, I'm speaking of DC's insistance of dragons characterizations during the birth of civilization onward.
QUOTE (capeo @ Jan 9 2008, 09:53 PM)
Such a characterization doesn't matter, I'm speaking of DC's insistance of dragons characterizations during the birth of civilization onward.
everytime I read something you type I read it with an accent like british in my head.
do you think that dragons existed or are just the stuff of legends?
QUOTE (capeo @ Jan 9 2008, 04:53 PM)
Such a characterization doesn't matter, I'm speaking of DC's insistance of dragons characterizations during the birth of civilization onward.
Fair enough.. but every other line in your statement seemed to refer to the 'good'-ness of the god you were talking about.
I guess I'm not sure where you were going with the 'good' thing. If you're just talking about dragons benefiting people by teaching them (as DC talks about occasionally) they don't have to be doing it for *our* good.
a rational explanation would be dragons are a chimeric psycological metaphor.
say for example we start with mans fear of being killed
then we add the fact tnat snakes can kill through a bite [almost godly isnt it]
then say a meteor hits earth man thinks giant snake [the streak in the sky] and the crash makes a large boom or roar [must eat meat if it roars and huge]
it fell from the sky astronomy begins [knowledge]
the impact creates a fire which man harvests [knowledge and fire-breath]
say we also have another impact in the sea it creates a large wave and a large gust of wind which we notice is similar to a storm [storm god]
so man remembers the simple details over time and creates the artist rendering of the stories after finding dino bones
man then begins to embelish and make the evil ones more terrifying and divine ones graceful by adding other features [wings claws, beards]
slayer stories maybe real but embelished as a dragon [mistaken identity or fish story?]
BAM the dragon of today out of nothing really.
say for example we start with mans fear of being killed
then we add the fact tnat snakes can kill through a bite [almost godly isnt it]
then say a meteor hits earth man thinks giant snake [the streak in the sky] and the crash makes a large boom or roar [must eat meat if it roars and huge]
it fell from the sky astronomy begins [knowledge]
the impact creates a fire which man harvests [knowledge and fire-breath]
say we also have another impact in the sea it creates a large wave and a large gust of wind which we notice is similar to a storm [storm god]
so man remembers the simple details over time and creates the artist rendering of the stories after finding dino bones
man then begins to embelish and make the evil ones more terrifying and divine ones graceful by adding other features [wings claws, beards]
slayer stories maybe real but embelished as a dragon [mistaken identity or fish story?]
BAM the dragon of today out of nothing really.
Language changes as does the meaning of words.
Just becasue you see the word "dragon" in the Bible does not mean that the writer/translator was referring to what we think of as a dragon today.
In the King James Version of the Bible the original words that were translated most often as dragon/dragons was "tanniym/tanniyn". In different parts of the Bible the same original word was also translated as:
Serpent
Whale
In the New King James Version:
Serpent
Sea serpent
Sea creature
Monster
Jackal
In other translations of the Bible the word was tranlated into even more different creatures.
In my opinion the word is a generic term for large beast or something like that.
People often make the mistake of assuming that words in the Bible (and other old books) mean the same thing as what they do today. If you want to understand the Bible you will need to start looking at the original language - there is NO OTHER WAY.
Just becasue you see the word "dragon" in the Bible does not mean that the writer/translator was referring to what we think of as a dragon today.
In the King James Version of the Bible the original words that were translated most often as dragon/dragons was "tanniym/tanniyn". In different parts of the Bible the same original word was also translated as:
Serpent
Whale
In the New King James Version:
Serpent
Sea serpent
Sea creature
Monster
Jackal
In other translations of the Bible the word was tranlated into even more different creatures.
In my opinion the word is a generic term for large beast or something like that.
People often make the mistake of assuming that words in the Bible (and other old books) mean the same thing as what they do today. If you want to understand the Bible you will need to start looking at the original language - there is NO OTHER WAY.
QUOTE (ravergirl @ Jan 9 2008, 04:15 PM)
they weren't all found in tombs. and the tomb of everyone that ever lived cannot be found. sorry to disappoint you but there have been way more people than found tombs, not everyone was all that important. and the earth has suffered some catastrophies, and people have caused their own.
Oops, I meant "tomes", as in other writings from the times. ^^; I'll fix that.
"In my opinion the word is a generic term for large beast or something like that."
Yep, definitely agree.
Also, have you guys ever seen the number of people God kills to the number of people Satan kills in the Bible? It's hilarious. x) Essentially, the Catholic Church has changed its views so many times, and now they're saying that nothing in the Old Testament can be taken literally, and you get to pick and choose the laws you want to follow. I don't remember the passage and I don't have a Bible here, but "God" says that chronically disobedient children should be brought the the center of town and stoned to death. Women who go outside while menstruating must also be stoned. Cheating women? Stoned. Cheating men? Pay the woman's family a few pieces of silver. Oh, and the woman he cheats with? Stoned.
The Old Testament is ridiculous for this day and age.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.