if you were able to travel back in time, and you were able to kill Hitler, would you change history. the short answer is no.


i believe that if you were able to travel back you could change some minor things, ie jimmy neutron, you could go back and get your dad to buy stock instead of a ring.


you could also go back and kill Hitler. but that would not stop ww2 from happing. it might postpone it by 20 years or 200 years. but that war would still take place, the 6 million Jews and still be killed.


what I am saying is that you can change minor history but throughout history there are a few key things that have happened and you would not be able to change those key historical things. the best you could do is to just post pone them.


key points that i can think of.

the fall of Adam
the creation of the Jewish people
the Crucifixion of Christ
world war 2 which brought about the return of the jews to the holy land.
the creation of the united states.
and there are others which i cannot think of right now.

so you can go back in time and keep your great grandfather from being killed in world war 2 but you cannot stop the war from happening.

Ok, why?

I mean, how come time travelers would be allowed to change minor aspects of history but not these "key points" you speak of? Are you invoking God somehow (ie, God would prevent such changes), or are you saying there's some kind of natural law/mechanism at work, or that everything is somehow predetermined to happen regardless of our actions?

what I am saying is life is like a sonnet. you are able to do what you want as long as you follow the rules.


these key events are what is necessary for certain follow up events to take place. like the Christian movement after Christ is crucified. like the Muslim movement after Mohammad. like the return of the Jews after world war 2. after the so called human condition after the fall of Adam. yes god is involved in it.

How would you know? Science fiction books?

No one has traveled through time besides foward at the normal rate.

For all you know somebody is changing everything all the time. You wouldn't notice

true.

according to the bible certain things have to happen.


for those things to happen something has/had to lead up to those.


for instance everyone is screaming about all of the signs that Christ is returning.


but there is something that has to take place before he will return.


that is the Reconstruction of the temple of David/Solomon.

How do you know that someone didn't just go back in time and change the bible to it's present state? I mean, God is infalable, so he would know that the bible would be altered by a time traveler to it's correct state.

for danielost,
doing what you said is pointless, i hope you know.
because you going back to change something, then living in the present time, would mean, you went back in time, to change something that never actually happened in the first place. where you are now.
get it?



yeah ive been thinking about that alot too.
its an interesting thought.

you/they still have to becareful about the grandfather affect.

Are you sure about that?

No you're not. You can't ever be sure about anything with time travel. Ever.

the grandfather effect you go back in time kill your grandfather before he made your father. so how did you kill grandpa if you didn't exist.

how can you be sure about anything until you know it has happened.

This is a commonly misunderstood 'paradox' because it is not really a paradox. If you existed and were able to go back in time, you would not be able to kill your Grandpa, because you exist now. If you were able to kill him in the past, you would not exist now to go back in time. It's linear, you see.

The only way to exist now and go back in time to kill your Grandpa is to stay in the time frame in which he lived, and then of course, you would never be seen again after the moment you left in the time machine. The moment you tried to go back to your timeline, you would 'phut' out of existence and the entire world would change into that of an era that your Grandpa had died. Those who go back in time and kill their Grandpas will not exist now and we will never have any knowledge of them.

It's a fact that the past is unchangeable. Anything that a timetraveller changes in the past, changes the past into the reality we know as our past. It's like a self fullfilling prophesy. Whatever has happened in the past has happened. Period. If you go back in time to try to stop the assassination of Bhutto, for example, you will find that you either a; cannot or b; You help to do it. You CANNOT CHANGE YOUR PAST. You merely add to its already mapped out history. The only thing time travellers can change is the future.

AJ

I've thought about that too but if time travel did exsist and someone is messing with things then it would have had effects by now. Unless of course the effects are the one's we are experiencing now. In which case these are pretty crappy times.

And what of the things that may have happened in the recent past that timetravellers have prevented, that you do not know about ? Like the 2006 plane crash into Buckingham Palace or the 2007 earthquake in California ? Just maybe timetravellers prevented these things from happening and because they were prevented, they don't appear in our history.

Think about that.
AJ

the 2007 earthquake in California ?

I don't think a human can stop an earthquake. Maybe postpone but not stop.



There is still the missing plane in PA, the highjacked one, the one that hit the ground, where is it.

I like this TT .. the very thing that brought me to this forum was a guy named john titor, iam sure most have heard of him...still fascinaites me to this very day..


Is TT possible and like john said u cant change history "whether he's is real or not"... u..we.. make your own history.

true.
but like posted before, how do we not know that someone IS changing the course of history now. we couldnt tell.
what if jfk didnt die, but someone went back in time to change something, and it effected it, and the consequence was he did die.
maybe hitler had taken over the world. but someone went back to fight it, changing the course of history so he didnt win. and we can live in a better place.
we cant tell, but its just speculation.
like deja vu, when you have it, maybe its because we Have lived it before, but someone went back to change something. we dont know it, but thats why we feel as if weve been here before, or lived that part of life, at that moment.

I don't want to make this a semantic argument, but you can't change history from that which you know as history 'per se' because if you change anything in the past, you would only change it into that which you remember as being history before you went back in time.
With the Hitler example, the Nazis never won WW2 because we know as recorded history today that they lost. If you went back in time, you may find that the Nazis were winning, but whether you did something or nothing, they would still lose. That would be a foregone conclusion because recorded as a true event in the 'future' that you came from, they lost.
If you tried to help Hitler win, you would fail. Even if you took lasers and troops and F16s and a battle plan for him with you, he would still lose, because in the present that you came from, you know he lost. Furthermore, those lasers and F16s would not be used in the public knowledge because public history does not record them. Maybe they are mentioned in the Presidents 'Eyes Only' file, but not on, say Wikipedia.

I think that time travel into the past is potentially a safe trip because you know what happens. You wont change any major historical events to something other than what you know as having happened . The only thng to look out for would be the pitfalls that may happen to you that are not recorded by historical records and therefore that you don't know about. e'g' in 1626 a group of strangley dressed people were burned as witches. That may well have been timetravellers from 2263 who did not realise that that historical entry was about them so make the trip and are tragically killed. Events in the past have happened that would otherwise not have..timetravellers appeared... but histroy as recorded has not changed. I believe that time travel into the future is the more dangerous, as those events are not set, they have not happened yet, so you run the risk of doing serious damage to the events of the future.

As far as humans stopping an earthquake... who knows what technology we will have in the future...If we can time travel, we may well be able to stop earthquakes. We will never know in our present what the future timetravellers do for us, and will never know what past events were guided for us, once that 'present' becomes the 'past'.

AJ

I never said that you couldn't affect the outcome of a major event. I said you couldn't stop it from happening.


However there are two exceptions to this. The fall of Adam and the death of Christ.


If you go back in time and stop Adam from eating the fruit of good and bad. They stay in the garden and we are never born.


If you stop the death of Christ then no one will be saved.

thats not a very good argument.
because theres no "proof" of adam or eve existing.
and i really dont think it would have made a difference if jesus didnt die on the cross. as opposed to, old age, or something. people would still have come up with christianity. it wouldnt have affected us.

What I am beginning to think about Adam and Eve is that they did not eat a fruit of good and evil. They gained the knowledge of right and wrong like kids do today.


The method of Christ's death wasn't important. Which if you reread my last post I did not use the word cross. Christ was a sacrifice. A sacrifice according to the bible couldn't have any broken bones. Which means that today we would use lethal injection or gas.


Through DNA they have located an Adam and an Eve. They were not married nor did they live in the same place or time.

From the time travellers point of view, if he killed his grandad, that event 'would' be a future event. Even though the time traveller is living in times which we call our past, any actions he takes while he is there would still be future events to him according to his own personal timeline. Therefore he would be changing future events that we would see as past events.

There seems to be a lot of interest in this topic recently. The argument is whether realities are unchangeable? At the risk of repeating myself, even mainstream scientists are realizing that we live in a 'multiverse'; that is there are an infinite number of parallel probable universes. Just click on the links for Stephen Hawking and Michio Kaku

A while back I posted a thread Healing the Past which supports the idea that we can ideed change history. The implication is significant, in that we are not hapless victims of events but masters of our own destiny. The challenge is that we have to take full ownership for the realities we create, rather than blaming some disembodied external power. The good news, I am suggesting, is that we can change our beliefs about reality and create new ones that are more in alignment with our heart's desire.

The good news, I am suggesting, is that we can change our beliefs about reality and create new ones that are more in alignment with our heart's desire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



But according to that theory it has been done that way and every other way.

And before he travels, does the timetraveller see in the hall of records that his Grandpa was killed by an unnamed assailant ? NO.

With all due respect, you're missing the point. The timetraveller is going into the PAST. Any events that happen in his timeline whilst in the past are part of realitys' history.

These events have already happened. Even when the timetraveller is in 'the past' these events that he is experiencing, or living through, have already happened. While travelling, he is part of history.

From the perspective of our 'present' any events that occured in the past are fixed, unchangable, purely by dint of the fact that they are recorded as having happened, so any events that a timetraveller tried to change in the past could only result in events that actually happened.... an event that a person in the present knows happened in 'the past'. Anything done in our past would be an event that happened in our past. So as long as it was recorded, we would know of it. It's common sense.... Anything that has happened has happened, therefore to change it would be impossible. A timetraveller could only add to past events; he would find that he was unable to kill his grandad no matter how hard he tried. History shows this and proves it in the fact that he himself existed... ergo, his grandad was not killed. It matters not a jot that events to him would be future events, because the events have already happened in reality.. His being there is an anomaly, not only just a by-product of his travelling, but also a necessity to the course of events that shaped his 'future' or what we remember as the 'past' ...It's like you re-watching a movie and hoping that the ending will be different to last time you watched it. It can't be done.

Remember: past events have happened. Whatever a timetraveller does in the past just shapes past events into what we know as history. Paradox don't happen, it's easy to say 'a cat turns into a dog', but just because it can be said does not mean it can happen.

And don't reference Doctor Who, that's fantasy.

AJ

Here's an idea that makes my head hurt - you can't change history at all in time travel - not even small stuff. The reason i say this is, if you did change history, then that history is a part of you. Therefore your history changes and you perceive no change at all. Therefore, changing the past is impossible, no matter what you do.

Therefore your history changes and you perceive no change at all. Therefore, changing the past is impossible, no matter what you do
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I guess I have to agree with this logic

Exactly.... You sum up in one statement what I was trying to say in a thousand words and ten posts.
Thanks

AJ

Evidence of TIME TRAVEL is presented and examined on the WORLD BREAKING DISCOVERIES website.

The previously perceived biblical ANGELS were time travellers.

They showed ancient people such as Moses, Ezekiel, Daniel, and John (plus many others) images of future 'things' and told of future events.

Link: http://www.worldbreakingdiscoveries.com.au
.

one little problem with this is that the bible states that god made time for man. god lives outside of time.

Explain yourself,you are putting this over as fact in wich you have not yet explained your "research"on this.

just 20 years of thinking and observing and some biblical studies.

Then why are you puting this over as truth if you are not completely sure if it is true.

Same reason any one is talking about time travel as if it were real.

yes, but now time travel is almost considered possible by scientists. and theyre trying to accomplish it.
as opposed to the bible. and many of its stories with it.

they are also trying to go faster than light too.

Don't know which would/will/could be easier to do.


Of course if the bible is right then the speed of light should be easier.

of course to travel in space and make it worth while. you have to be able to travel in time and faster than light.

I'm fascinated by the claims made on the linked website and by the results/conclusions drawn. On the Worldbreakingdiscoveries website, it says that the various manuscripts were written at the time by scholars using their own (ancient Egyptian) frame of reference to describe the CDs, 'disc of sun' etc...
Could I ask.....

1 How exactly, are you certain that these manuscripts are not being interpreted by modern scholars using their own modern, computerized frame of reference to interpret the text ?

2 Would people with technology advanced enough to use time machines, not have a more advanced method of information assilmilation than a pc, and a wired mouse ?

3 What was the supposed power source for the pc ? By its own admission the website rules out laptops/notebooks, as even in 2008 they do not use a mouse... It is therefore definitely a desktop pc that is used in ancient Egypt, internal batteries are not employed !!!!!

4 If this a true paradox, as suggested (Egyptian Gods created to resemble the icons on a CD ROM about Egyptian gods), how is the paradox resolved ? Do you have an idea about where the images of the Egqyptians Gods actually come from ?

Baited breath.... AJ

2 Would people with technology advanced enough to use time machines, not have a more advanced method of information assilmilation than a pc, and a wired mouse ?


There is another possible source for a pc and a mouse. That would be the civilization that Noah came from. The barge(the ark) as described by the bible was a very sea worthy ship. As has been found out by a church don't remember the name and I believe it was tested in the army corp of engineers naval test tank. If it was built to the size and skill that is suggested in the bible. Noah would have had to come from a civilization that is equal or greater than ours in tech.


Yes i know most people believe Noah and Gilgamesh were the same people. Or Noah came from the black sea area. But the size and shape of the ark is beyond these peoples abilities and so it makes it hard to believe that they would dream up a ship, for a man to save the planet, beyond what they were capable of building. According to the science channel a solid wooden boat of that size would brake under it's own weight. But in a later show they say that if it was built more like a brick building, with wood of course, it wouldn't brake under it's own weight.

3 What was the supposed power source for the pc ? By its own admission the website rules out laptops/notebooks, as even in 2008 they do not use a mouse... It is therefore definitely a desktop pc that is used in ancient Egypt, internal batteries are not employed !!!!!


the egyiptions did have a battery. and a light bulb which they may have used to light the inside of the tombs when they were working on them

CarrionFlyer asked
“1 How exactly, are you certain that these manuscripts are not being interpreted by modern scholars using their own modern, computerized frame of reference to interpret the text ?”

Even if a computerized frame of mind was misinterpreting the texts, how do you explain that from over 30 different ancient texts - the contents, structure, and sequence of cd-rom pictures match to ancient descriptions ?

To put it another way.
When the Egyptian sequence of gods in their stories are taken in the context of the RA-Disk being the Sun, then those stories remain stories.
But why did the Egyptian draw the Sun with a hole in the middle?

When the RA-Disk is taken to be a certain compact disk - descriptions and illustrations by Egyptian scribes exactly match to the contents of that cettain cd-rom.

Is this not evidence that the Egyptian ‘god’ stories are not just stories, but are an account of seeing the pictures from that certain cd-rom ?


CarrionFlyer asked
“2 Would people with technology advanced enough to use time machines, not have a more advanced method of information assilmilation than a pc, and a wired mouse ?”

They probable would, but a mid 1990s pc was used so that Ronald Pegg would easily identify the technology being used – when he found matching images from certain cd-roms to ancient descriptions..


CarrionFlyer asked
“3 What was the supposed power source for the pc ?”

Explained in the World Breaking Discoveries E-Book, the ‘Ark of Gopher Wood’ was a computer transport box. It contained a compartment that would easily have held a power source.
E-Book link: About the WBD book

CarrionFlyer asked
“4 If this a true paradox, as suggested (Egyptian Gods created to resemble the icons on a CD ROM about Egyptian gods), how is the paradox resolved ? Do you have an idea about where the images of the Egqyptians Gods actually come from ?”

The Egyptian illustrations found on temple walls and on papyrus sheets are their own interpretations of what they saw on the cd-roms.

The book A New Understanding - Egyptian Gods and Atlantis presents over 40 gods and to which images/icons they refer from the cd-rom.

E-Book link: About ANU book
.

Ok, try running your pc on a battery that is only capable of running a light bulb !! The point I am trying to make is that if you had the technology for time travel, you would anticipate needing a power supply to wantonly mess up an ancient yet still growing civilization and take one with you.... Do you really, really believe that (supposing it could be done) time travellers would go into the past and not take a portable power supply ? We even did that when we went to the moon, and by 2008 standards, the Apollo technology was basic...

AJ

p.s. The Ark and the Flood are generally accepted as parts of an analogy to explain a global disaster. Most people don't accept the story on face value as a word for word account of an actual occurence.

Simply because it is still the computerized frame of mind that is interpreting all of these 30 documents. It could even be something as simple as the editors of the CD ROM used the symbols in the same order as the texts... they were copying from ancient texts, after all !! But that's beside the point.....You are certain that the ancient Egyptians described things in their own frame of mind, referencing from the things that they 'knew'. So why are you so sure you are no doing the same ? My question still stands.. Why are you so sure ?



Please elucidate on your reply. I thought the use of a pc and CD ROM were central to the argument of this case ? If you admit that time travellers would probably not use a pc, why would they use a CD ROM ? I am under the impression that in 2008, technology is on the verge of leaving CD ROMs behind as defunct, so it begins to look more and more like these 'timetravellers' did the biz in the 1990's does it ? So why do we not have a time machine now , in 2008 ?



Too vague a reply i'm afraid. You are talking about a mid 1990's pc, so what exactly is the mid 1990's portable power supply that runs a clean smoothed supply at 240v or 220v?


You miss my question. If the illustrations on the walls and on papyrus sheets are their interpretations of what they saw on the CD ROM, and the CD ROM was created in the 1990's from ancient illustrations and papyrus, where did the symbols actually come from ? The original idea that created the symbols is in a paradox. Do you have an idea how to resolve this paradox ? Because I do.

regards, Skeptical AJ

if you stick enough batteries together you can run anything. assuming you can take them all with you.


the models of the ark work so why wouldn't the one in the bible work.

I have not accepted the flood as part of an analogy,

You miss my question. If the illustrations on the walls and on papyrus sheets are their interpretations of what they saw on the CD ROM, and the CD ROM was created in the 1990's from ancient illustrations and papyrus, where did the symbols actually come from ? The original idea that created the symbols is in a paradox. Do you have an idea how to resolve this paradox ? Because I do.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This is the same paradox that they put into the star trek movies. The eyeglasses that Kirk sells in San Fransisco were never made. Why because in the future Bones will buy them and give them to Kirk. Who will bring them to the past and sell them. Then Bones will buy them and give them back to Kirk.

This would be one of those key events I was talking about.

That is an insightful observation danielost, with implications that are rarely considered:
If time is simultaneous, then as you suggest, all events throughout history would be predetermined. The fixed linear reality has been replaced by a planar reality, albeit richer and fuller, it is still frozen in the physical universe with all probable outcomes selected by? - chance? - God? There would be no creativity, spontaneity, or free will in this model in which the perceptual self, or selves, march through a time spaced series of states to give the illusion of change. The model needs to be modified to reflect the consequences of free will. Hawkins and Hertog suggest in their article, that reality is:
"..like a projection of billions of movies played on top of one another."

The model below reflects this idea of reality as a cube with the top surface dynamically continuing to grow in a new dimension of increasing experience; a sixth dimension of reality.
Click to view attachment

Reflecting on how each probable personality might experience this reality, Hawkins muses:
"If we haven't yet read the news of the day, all the possible newsworthy events are happening simultaneously in alternative universes waiting for us to turn each page of the newspaper, and only then do we connect with one of those worlds."

A spiritual version of this phenomenon is described in Jane Roberts book "The Unknown Reality". In this book, the dimension of increasing experience is aptly called value fulfilment.

As I have said, If there is more than one of me. Then I end up in heavan and hell, and life doesn't matter.

I am not saying that there aren't multi. universes. I am not saying that there isn't another Daniel osterloh. What I am saying is I am responsible for my choices and he is responsible for his.