Christopher Dunn and other investigators have suggested that some or all of the Egyptian pyramids, especially the Great Pyramid at Giza, may be machines of some sort, perhaps harnessing energies unknown to modern science. Certainly, maps of the interior of the Great Pyramid, showing the bizarre shape of the chambers and corridors resemble a machine more than anything else. It may have harnessed the legendary chi force, perhaps for multiple purposes, including, possibly, raising the consciousness of initiates to the priesthood who may have lain in the "sarcophagous" in the "king's chamber." Depending on the size of a cubit (usually around two and a half feet) it is even possible that the Ark of the Covenant, which could have functioned as a capacitor, could have fitted into the "sarcophagous" and a man with his knees drawn up could have lain inside.
The "Pyramid of the Sun" at Teotihuacan in Mexico has roughly the same base size as the one at Giza, but is only about half as high. If the size and mass of the Great Pyramid were necessary for its functioning(else why go to the colossal trouble and expense of making it so large), how could the one in Mexico have worked, assuming that it was intended for a similar purpose? The answer may lie in the massive sheet of mica extending all across the structure, deep inside. The chemical makeup of this mica only fits some deposits in South America, raising questions about ancient trade routes and methods of transport, and indicating its importance to the builders. Mica is a fairly common mineral whose unusual properties make it useful in the electrical and nuclear industries.
Could the mica in some way have compensated for the pyramid's lack of height and enabled it to tap whatever strange energies were used also by the taller one in Egypt ? William B Stoecker
Full Version: Pyramid Machines
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History
QUOTE (William B Stoecker @ Jan 10 2008, 01:41 AM) 
Christopher Dunn and other investigators have suggested that some or all of the Egyptian pyramids, especially the Great Pyramid at Giza, may be machines of some sort, perhaps harnessing energies unknown to modern science. Certainly, maps of the interior of the Great Pyramid, showing the bizarre shape of the chambers and corridors resemble a machine more than anything else. It may have harnessed the legendary chi force, perhaps for multiple purposes, including, possibly, raising the consciousness of initiates to the priesthood who may have lain in the "sarcophagous" in the "king's chamber." Depending on the size of a cubit (usually around two and a half feet) it is even possible that the Ark of the Covenant, which could have functioned as a capacitor, could have fitted into the "sarcophagous" and a man with his knees drawn up could have lain inside.
The "Pyramid of the Sun" at Teotihuacan in Mexico has roughly the same base size as the one at Giza, but is only about half as high. If the size and mass of the Great Pyramid were necessary for its functioning(else why go to the colossal trouble and expense of making it so large), how could the one in Mexico have worked, assuming that it was intended for a similar purpose? The answer may lie in the massive sheet of mica extending all across the structure, deep inside. The chemical makeup of this mica only fits some deposits in South America, raising questions about ancient trade routes and methods of transport, and indicating its importance to the builders. Mica is a fairly common mineral whose unusual properties make it useful in the electrical and nuclear industries.
Could the mica in some way have compensated for the pyramid's lack of height and enabled it to tap whatever strange energies were used also by the taller one in Egypt ? William B Stoecker
The "Pyramid of the Sun" at Teotihuacan in Mexico has roughly the same base size as the one at Giza, but is only about half as high. If the size and mass of the Great Pyramid were necessary for its functioning(else why go to the colossal trouble and expense of making it so large), how could the one in Mexico have worked, assuming that it was intended for a similar purpose? The answer may lie in the massive sheet of mica extending all across the structure, deep inside. The chemical makeup of this mica only fits some deposits in South America, raising questions about ancient trade routes and methods of transport, and indicating its importance to the builders. Mica is a fairly common mineral whose unusual properties make it useful in the electrical and nuclear industries.
Could the mica in some way have compensated for the pyramid's lack of height and enabled it to tap whatever strange energies were used also by the taller one in Egypt ? William B Stoecker
The short answer? NO
QUOTE (William B Stoecker @ Jan 9 2008, 06:41 PM)
Christopher Dunn and other investigators have suggested that some or all of the Egyptian pyramids, especially the Great Pyramid at Giza, may be machines of some sort, perhaps harnessing energies unknown to modern science. Certainly, maps of the interior of the Great Pyramid, showing the bizarre shape of the chambers and corridors resemble a machine more than anything else. It may have harnessed the legendary chi force, perhaps for multiple purposes, including, possibly, raising the consciousness of initiates to the priesthood who may have lain in the "sarcophagous" in the "king's chamber." Depending on the size of a cubit (usually around two and a half feet) it is even possible that the Ark of the Covenant, which could have functioned as a capacitor, could have fitted into the "sarcophagous" and a man with his knees drawn up could have lain inside.
The "Pyramid of the Sun" at Teotihuacan in Mexico has roughly the same base size as the one at Giza, but is only about half as high. If the size and mass of the Great Pyramid were necessary for its functioning(else why go to the colossal trouble and expense of making it so large), how could the one in Mexico have worked, assuming that it was intended for a similar purpose? The answer may lie in the massive sheet of mica extending all across the structure, deep inside. The chemical makeup of this mica only fits some deposits in South America, raising questions about ancient trade routes and methods of transport, and indicating its importance to the builders. Mica is a fairly common mineral whose unusual properties make it useful in the electrical and nuclear industries.
Could the mica in some way have compensated for the pyramid's lack of height and enabled it to tap whatever strange energies were used also by the taller one in Egypt ? William B Stoecker
The "Pyramid of the Sun" at Teotihuacan in Mexico has roughly the same base size as the one at Giza, but is only about half as high. If the size and mass of the Great Pyramid were necessary for its functioning(else why go to the colossal trouble and expense of making it so large), how could the one in Mexico have worked, assuming that it was intended for a similar purpose? The answer may lie in the massive sheet of mica extending all across the structure, deep inside. The chemical makeup of this mica only fits some deposits in South America, raising questions about ancient trade routes and methods of transport, and indicating its importance to the builders. Mica is a fairly common mineral whose unusual properties make it useful in the electrical and nuclear industries.
Could the mica in some way have compensated for the pyramid's lack of height and enabled it to tap whatever strange energies were used also by the taller one in Egypt ? William B Stoecker
I'm quite prepared to admit you think it looks like a machine, but I certainly don't, and I'm sure I'm not alone. So it's not "certain" that it resembles a machine in objectivo at all.
--Jaylemurph
I don't think so. I read the first part of the article.
where are people coming up with this stuff?
where are people coming up with this stuff?
QUOTE (William B Stoecker @ Jan 9 2008, 05:41 PM)
The chemical makeup of this mica only fits some deposits in South America
William B Stoecker
William B Stoecker
could you supply a link to a reputable source supporting this claim?, I've read the mica was mined locally... TIA
QUOTE (MoonPrincess @ Jan 10 2008, 12:44 AM)
I don't think so. I read the first part of the article.
where are people coming up with this stuff?
where are people coming up with this stuff?
Who know, maybe the want to sell a book?
I think the pyramids were temples used for initiations as well as mystical experiences such as astral projection, and that the sarcophagus was used as part of these rituals in similar ways as modern orders like Skull & Bones uses a coffin today.
This is also consistent with the ancient records of several ancient orders currently active that still dates back to those times and the spiritual practices they were involved with both then as well as now.
This is also consistent with the ancient records of several ancient orders currently active that still dates back to those times and the spiritual practices they were involved with both then as well as now.
When comparing the South American pyramids to the Egyptan ones, keep in mind the Mexican pyramid of cholua its the largest pyramid in the word , its base is bigger than any other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Cholula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pyramid_of_Cholula
Are you familiar with the chinese pyramids? Quite a lot of them, and pretty huge too. I've heard some of those are also bigger than the egyptian ones.
Here is a site about some of them http://www.earthquest.co.uk/china/china.html
Here is a site about some of them http://www.earthquest.co.uk/china/china.html
QUOTE (Razer @ Jan 9 2008, 08:08 PM)
Who know, maybe the want to sell a book?
Possibly, Razer. But how many people are going to believe the guy?
QUOTE (MoonPrincess @ Jan 10 2008, 09:02 AM)
Possibly, Razer. But how many people are going to believe the guy?
Oh, judging from his wacko predecessors, enough for it to be highly profitable for everyone involved.
QUOTE
This is also consistent with the ancient records of several ancient orders currently active that still dates back to those times and the spiritual practices they were involved with both then as well as now.
Is there any point in asking for some reasonable back-up for this?
--Jaylemurph
Jaylemurph: You can always join some of these orders yourself and once you reach the high enough degree you might get access to study these ancient documents on your own and find out more that way.
The problem is that these documents are contained and preserved within several of the secret orders and societies and they guard them rather well, as they do with most of their secret material and what they do etc, although much have been leaked out about it.
So in other words, they are only available to initiates and usually only to those of higher degrees depending on the information in the documents and their importance to the various orders.
And thats one of the problems for many of the authors on such subjects whom have been, and many still are, members of such orders and societies and write about the documents and what they contain of information, at least as much as they can reveal (several got in trouble for exposing material of different orders) but without being able to give any physical evidence of the existence of such documents due to the simple fact that they don't possess them themselves and I doubt they would be allowed to take photos of them as well.
Sometimes, infiltration can give some insights and shred some light on things you wonder about, *hint hint, nudge nudge*
The problem is that these documents are contained and preserved within several of the secret orders and societies and they guard them rather well, as they do with most of their secret material and what they do etc, although much have been leaked out about it.
So in other words, they are only available to initiates and usually only to those of higher degrees depending on the information in the documents and their importance to the various orders.
And thats one of the problems for many of the authors on such subjects whom have been, and many still are, members of such orders and societies and write about the documents and what they contain of information, at least as much as they can reveal (several got in trouble for exposing material of different orders) but without being able to give any physical evidence of the existence of such documents due to the simple fact that they don't possess them themselves and I doubt they would be allowed to take photos of them as well.
Sometimes, infiltration can give some insights and shred some light on things you wonder about, *hint hint, nudge nudge*
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Jan 10 2008, 01:41 PM)
Jaylemurph: You can always join some of these orders yourself and once you reach the high enough degree you might get access to study these ancient documents on your own and find out more that way.
The problem is that these documents are contained and preserved within several of the secret orders and societies and they guard them rather well, as they do with most of their secret material and what they do etc, although much have been leaked out about it.
So in other words, they are only available to initiates and usually only to those of higher degrees depending on the information in the documents and their importance to the various orders.
And thats one of the problems for many of the authors on such subjects whom have been, and many still are, members of such orders and societies and write about the documents and what they contain of information, at least as much as they can reveal (several got in trouble for exposing material of different orders) but without being able to give any physical evidence of the existence of such documents due to the simple fact that they don't possess them themselves and I doubt they would be allowed to take photos of them as well.
Sometimes, infiltration can give some insights and shred some light on things you wonder about, *hint hint, nudge nudge*
The problem is that these documents are contained and preserved within several of the secret orders and societies and they guard them rather well, as they do with most of their secret material and what they do etc, although much have been leaked out about it.
So in other words, they are only available to initiates and usually only to those of higher degrees depending on the information in the documents and their importance to the various orders.
And thats one of the problems for many of the authors on such subjects whom have been, and many still are, members of such orders and societies and write about the documents and what they contain of information, at least as much as they can reveal (several got in trouble for exposing material of different orders) but without being able to give any physical evidence of the existence of such documents due to the simple fact that they don't possess them themselves and I doubt they would be allowed to take photos of them as well.
Sometimes, infiltration can give some insights and shred some light on things you wonder about, *hint hint, nudge nudge*
I was more interested in the orders themselves. There are precious few organizations that date back more than a few centuries, but saying that the things that prove they exist can only be seen by the people in the groups is a nice little paradox that shifts the blame away from you completely.
--Jaylemurph
Oh the orders themselves.
Well if you look into it you will see they date further back than what it might first seem, it's just names that has changed through history, and of course some structure of the orders and such, but several of them still dates back to very ancient times still preserving the same teachings and being in direct line of those ancient orders meaning that a part of the inner circle of the order consist of people who have been directly linked to the original orders when they first emerged and helped conserve and maintain the teachings and documents and such.
Several have also split, and formed new orders, which are based on the original material of other orders, and even often mixed with several different orders and creating new systems.
Well if you look into it you will see they date further back than what it might first seem, it's just names that has changed through history, and of course some structure of the orders and such, but several of them still dates back to very ancient times still preserving the same teachings and being in direct line of those ancient orders meaning that a part of the inner circle of the order consist of people who have been directly linked to the original orders when they first emerged and helped conserve and maintain the teachings and documents and such.
Several have also split, and formed new orders, which are based on the original material of other orders, and even often mixed with several different orders and creating new systems.
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Jan 10 2008, 02:05 PM)
Oh the orders themselves.
Well if you look into it you will see they date further back than what it might first seem, it's just names that has changed through history, and of course some structure of the orders and such, but several of them still dates back to very ancient times still preserving the same teachings and being in direct line of those ancient orders meaning that a part of the inner circle of the order consist of people who have been directly linked to the original orders when they first emerged and helped conserve and maintain the teachings and documents and such.
Several have also split, and formed new orders, which are based on the original material of other orders, and even often mixed with several different orders and creating new systems.
Well if you look into it you will see they date further back than what it might first seem, it's just names that has changed through history, and of course some structure of the orders and such, but several of them still dates back to very ancient times still preserving the same teachings and being in direct line of those ancient orders meaning that a part of the inner circle of the order consist of people who have been directly linked to the original orders when they first emerged and helped conserve and maintain the teachings and documents and such.
Several have also split, and formed new orders, which are based on the original material of other orders, and even often mixed with several different orders and creating new systems.
So.... the names?
It's just... you do realize when groups like the Freemasons say they've been around since yonks ago, that's not true? They lie. And people like you will believe they're ancient mystical groups with Great Secrets even though they started out in someone's bar in 1973. If you have some sort of evidence that the Illuminati existed /more/ than 250 years ago or that they exist now, I'd like to see it, but if all you can come up with is "there are these secret, evil people doing secret, evil things in secret" then spare me, and forgive my curiosity.
--Jaylemurph
The Vatican is one good example that is fairly documented going back in time and is fairly documented when it comes to their evil acts as well. The Illuminati, as a name of an order, was created in the 1700s - but the people whom created it were already part of other orders of that time spanning further back.
Knights Templars for example spans back around thousand years and is still around. They are also the ones who created and still runs the modern banking business. Other orders and names were used and created by many ex-templars after it was officially disassembled by the pope in the 13 000s. It had tens of thousands of member already back then, obviously they would not all just let it fall, so it went more underground. The Knights of Malta is another example of an order that dates back around at thousand years and is still around. And bothe these orders are connected with eachother, among other a lot of the Templars material went over to the Knights of Malta. The Teutonic knights can also be mentioned, as being formed around 800 years ago and still around. First official accounts of the Rosicrucian order is at least 400 years old. But their own records show that it goes much further back than that and they relate to ancient orders such as those of the Essenes among others several thousand years back.
Most of these ancient orders connects in various ways with eachother, and to modern orders such as Freemasonry, OTO, Skull & Bones etc.
Check out the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail for some interesting research done on this stuff with tons of references and facts and documentation (and its the book Dan Brown got the idea to write the Da Vinci code from, he just made a modern version of it). This book is the result of 10 years of research by 3 authors. http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Blood-Grail-Mic...bxgy_cc_b_img_a
Knights Templars for example spans back around thousand years and is still around. They are also the ones who created and still runs the modern banking business. Other orders and names were used and created by many ex-templars after it was officially disassembled by the pope in the 13 000s. It had tens of thousands of member already back then, obviously they would not all just let it fall, so it went more underground. The Knights of Malta is another example of an order that dates back around at thousand years and is still around. And bothe these orders are connected with eachother, among other a lot of the Templars material went over to the Knights of Malta. The Teutonic knights can also be mentioned, as being formed around 800 years ago and still around. First official accounts of the Rosicrucian order is at least 400 years old. But their own records show that it goes much further back than that and they relate to ancient orders such as those of the Essenes among others several thousand years back.
Most of these ancient orders connects in various ways with eachother, and to modern orders such as Freemasonry, OTO, Skull & Bones etc.
Check out the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail for some interesting research done on this stuff with tons of references and facts and documentation (and its the book Dan Brown got the idea to write the Da Vinci code from, he just made a modern version of it). This book is the result of 10 years of research by 3 authors. http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Blood-Grail-Mic...bxgy_cc_b_img_a
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Jan 10 2008, 03:54 PM)
The Vatican is one good example that is fairly documented going back in time and is fairly documented when it comes to their evil acts as well.
Okay, it's old. And arguably nefarious.
QUOTE
The Illuminati, as a name of an order, was created in the 1700s - but the people whom created it were already part of other orders of that time spanning further back.
Even if you could prove that the people who founded the Illuminati were part of the Ancient Society of Nebulous Meanies, the Illuminati disbanded in 1784. (And no, no one's ever actually proved they survived. But if you can, please do, but without links to www.CranksBWe or a youtube video.)
QUOTE
Knights Templars for example spans back around thousand years and is still around. They are also the ones who created and still runs the modern banking business. Other orders and names were used and created by many ex-templars after it was officially disassembled by the pope in the 13 000s. It had tens of thousands of member already back then, obviously they would not all just let it fall, so it went more underground. The Knights of Malta is another example of an order that dates back around at thousand years and is still around. And bothe these orders are connected with eachother, among other a lot of the Templars material went over to the Knights of Malta. The Teutonic knights can also be mentioned, as being formed around 800 years ago and still around. First official accounts of the Rosicrucian order is at least 400 years old. But their own records show that it goes much further back than that and they relate to ancient orders such as those of the Essenes among others several thousand years back.
As fun as it is to speculate, again, no one's ever been able to say anything other than the Templars were disbanded in 1327. The Rosicrucians* never had anything to do with mysterious ancient orders, and nothing they ever actually printed said so, and even if they did, they disbanded during the Thirty Years War.
QUOTE
Check out the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail for some interesting research done on this stuff with tons of references and facts and documentation (and its the book Dan Brown got the idea to write the Da Vinci code from, he just made a modern version of it). This book is the result of 10 years of research by 3 authors. http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Blood-Grail-Mic...bxgy_cc_b_img_a
I've actually read Holy Blood, Holy Grail. And The Messainic Legacy. And the next few sequels. You /do/ know the man behind the authors' research (Pierre Plantard St Clair, or whatever it was) was a proven hoaxer, and almost all the evidence used by Messrs. Lincoln et al were fakes? I know; it's sad. I guess they should have stuck to writing for Doctor Who...
--Jaylemurph
*Seriously -- don't try to use the real Rosicrucians as evidence of a nefarious secret society, even though some people started a their only, play version of it in the 19th Century and tried to give it Spooooookkkyyy overtones. They did exist in the early 16th Century, and had politic-religious and scientific/mathematical aims, but then they (very provably) disbanded. There are real books by real historians you can read about it in, but they may not appeal to you since they don't feature any evil plots to take over the world.
You were the one starting babbling about illuminati and evil orders and world dominion, not me, I hadn't said a word about it.
I just pointed out the fact about the foundation of the real order named Illuminati and when this happened, as well as referring to the Vatican as a possible branch of the "evil doers" because you started talking about it, and to me the Vatican is a huge portal of evil and disinformation throughout history.
Regarding all the mentioned orders, I never said they are evil, I just pointed out the fact of their existence dating far back as you were asking me to mention any orders that dates back more than 250 years and is still around.
Personally I've grown up and been raised with a father who were a grandmaster of a smaller secret european order that dates back to around the 1500s, as well as having been a member of several other orders too for years. Most of the things I'm speaking about is a result from personal experiences and insights since the beginning of my life until this very point, which gives me the proper right to maintain what I find most possible, just as your opinion gives you your right to find your views most possible from your experience and knowledge.
Most likely, the correct line is drawn somewhere in between or possibly completely astray to what any of us believe or think is real.
Cheers.
I just pointed out the fact about the foundation of the real order named Illuminati and when this happened, as well as referring to the Vatican as a possible branch of the "evil doers" because you started talking about it, and to me the Vatican is a huge portal of evil and disinformation throughout history.
Regarding all the mentioned orders, I never said they are evil, I just pointed out the fact of their existence dating far back as you were asking me to mention any orders that dates back more than 250 years and is still around.
Personally I've grown up and been raised with a father who were a grandmaster of a smaller secret european order that dates back to around the 1500s, as well as having been a member of several other orders too for years. Most of the things I'm speaking about is a result from personal experiences and insights since the beginning of my life until this very point, which gives me the proper right to maintain what I find most possible, just as your opinion gives you your right to find your views most possible from your experience and knowledge.
Most likely, the correct line is drawn somewhere in between or possibly completely astray to what any of us believe or think is real.
Cheers.
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Jan 10 2008, 05:46 PM)
Personally I've grown up and been raised with a father who were a grandmaster of a smaller secret european order that dates back to around the 1500s, as well as having been a member of several other orders too for years. Most of the things I'm speaking about is a result from personal experiences and insights since the beginning of my life until this very point, which gives me the proper right to maintain what I find most possible, just as your opinion gives you your right to find your views most possible from your experience and knowledge.
Most likely, the correct line is drawn somewhere in between or possibly completely astray to what any of us believe or think is real.
Cheers.
Most likely, the correct line is drawn somewhere in between or possibly completely astray to what any of us believe or think is real.
Cheers.
Care to reveal any of your "sacred" knowledge so as to "enlighten" us about the true purpose of the pyramids and sarcophagi in Egypt and the stepped pyramids at Teotihuacan and other Mesoamerican sites. Please, I beg you, give me any sort of information from some obscure ancient society that draws its knowledge from ancient texts that are so secretive, that the contents of the texts may not be revealed. I just don't get it. Why are people so ready to believe someone's "knowledge" of ancient texts of a "secret society", that may or may not exist, which "tell" of what the true purpose of ancient monuments "really" are, when science and verifiable history offer a far superior, more logical explanation (based on empirical evidence, accurate written accounts, and observable patterns) for the purpose and use of these ancient monuments? It seems as if many people on this forum don't even take the time to acknowledge the hard work and constant dedication that archaeologists, paleoanthropologists, and historians put into their careers. Apparently, on this forum it is much easier for people to believe what some pseudo-archaeologist, (historian), ect. has to say (which often is based on little or no scientific observations or empirical evidence) rather than the (what people deem) "orthodox" scientific view "which limits human creativity". Until people see that science is not trying to remain "status quo", but rather is constantly re-evaluating past conclusions (with new scientific evidence) to obtain a more objective view of the World, and that science does not seek "to limit human creativity" but rather to explore new questions about the Universe around us (in a logical manner), then there is little hope for the objective knowledge science and verifiable history strive to provide on this forum. It seems like much could be resolved, if people on this forum cared to take the time to read about what science really is and what it tries to achieve, rather than discount the "orthodox" scientific views which they think "limit the imagination". I hope that someday (this may be a bit too optimistic) that people on UM go into debates at least looking over the scientific and historical side of a topic before perpetuating some explanation for a topic that is based on intuition and feeling rather than logical (deduced or induced) thought.
- Regards, Bokonon
QUOTE (Bokonontheancient @ Jan 11 2008, 03:06 PM)
Care to reveal any of your "sacred" knowledge so as to "enlighten" us about the true purpose of the pyramids and sarcophagi in Egypt and the stepped pyramids at Teotihuacan and other Mesoamerican sites. Please, I beg you, give me any sort of information from some obscure ancient society that draws its knowledge from ancient texts that are so secretive, that the contents of the texts may not be revealed. I just don't get it. Why are people so ready to believe someone's "knowledge" of ancient texts of a "secret society", that may or may not exist, which "tell" of what the true purpose of ancient monuments "really" are, when science and verifiable history offer a far superior, more logical explanation (based on empirical evidence, accurate written accounts, and observable patterns) for the purpose and use of these ancient monuments? It seems as if many people on this forum don't even take the time to acknowledge the hard work and constant dedication that archaeologists, paleoanthropologists, and historians put into their careers. Apparently, on this forum it is much easier for people to believe what some pseudo-archaeologist, (historian), ect. has to say (which often is based on little or no scientific observations or empirical evidence) rather than the (what people deem) "orthodox" scientific view "which limits human creativity". Until people see that science is not trying to remain "status quo", but rather is constantly re-evaluating past conclusions (with new scientific evidence) to obtain a more objective view of the World, and that science does not seek "to limit human creativity" but rather to explore new questions about the Universe around us (in a logical manner), then there is little hope for the objective knowledge science and verifiable history strive to provide on this forum. It seems like much could be resolved, if people on this forum cared to take the time to read about what science really is and what it tries to achieve, rather than discount the "orthodox" scientific views which they think "limit the imagination". I hope that someday (this may be a bit too optimistic) that people on UM go into debates at least looking over the scientific and historical side of a topic before perpetuating some explanation for a topic that is based on intuition and feeling rather than logical (deduced or induced) thought.
- Regards, Bokonon
well i think he is on to something but the answers will not be revealed, but ask your self one question why are many many ancient sites all over the world alligned to similar star groups, solicastes, equinoxs, i dont belive diffrent people all over the orld just all came up with the same idea with no contact what so ever, so there could very well be bigger picture.
NEWGRANGE
STONEHENGE
THE GREAT PYRAMID
Teotihuacán
Chichén Itzá
NABATA
Pyramids of Guimar, Canary Islands
Maeshowe
Brazlian stonehenge
North american stonehenge
Samaipata, Bolivia
Angkor Wat
Swedish stonehenge
Beaghmorenge
Corick
Gilgal Refaim Isreals stonehenge
Kokino, Macedonia
Medicine wheels
Stoplesteinan. Norways stonehenge
Armenia's Stonehenge
Carnac, France
Brodgar, Orkney islands
Machu pichu
Easter Island, Chile
Monk’s Mound at Cahokia, USA
Palenque, South America
Edzná, Mexico
Cholula Pyramid
Standing stones of Er Lannic, France
Loughcrew Cairns, Meath, Ireland
Bryn Celli Ddu, Wales
Knowth necropolis
Monte Alban, Mexico
Tikal.Guatemala
Uxmal
So goggle some or all of these sites an i think you will be suprised what they all have in common. enjoy
- Regards, Bokonon
well i think he is on to something but the answers will not be revealed, but ask your self one question why are many many ancient sites all over the world alligned to similar star groups, solicastes, equinoxs, i dont belive diffrent people all over the orld just all came up with the same idea with no contact what so ever, so there could very well be bigger picture.
NEWGRANGE
STONEHENGE
THE GREAT PYRAMID
Teotihuacán
Chichén Itzá
NABATA
Pyramids of Guimar, Canary Islands
Maeshowe
Brazlian stonehenge
North american stonehenge
Samaipata, Bolivia
Angkor Wat
Swedish stonehenge
Beaghmorenge
Corick
Gilgal Refaim Isreals stonehenge
Kokino, Macedonia
Medicine wheels
Stoplesteinan. Norways stonehenge
Armenia's Stonehenge
Carnac, France
Brodgar, Orkney islands
Machu pichu
Easter Island, Chile
Monk’s Mound at Cahokia, USA
Palenque, South America
Edzná, Mexico
Cholula Pyramid
Standing stones of Er Lannic, France
Loughcrew Cairns, Meath, Ireland
Bryn Celli Ddu, Wales
Knowth necropolis
Monte Alban, Mexico
Tikal.Guatemala
Uxmal
So goggle some or all of these sites an i think you will be suprised what they all have in common. enjoy
well i think he is on to something but the answers will not be revealed, but ask your self one question why are many many ancient sites all over the world alligned to similar star groups, solicastes, equinoxs, i dont belive diffrent people all over the orld just all came up with the same idea with no contact what so ever, so there could very well be bigger picture.
NEWGRANGE
STONEHENGE
THE GREAT PYRAMID
Teotihuacán
Chichén Itzá
NABATA
Pyramids of Guimar, Canary Islands
Maeshowe
Brazlian stonehenge
North american stonehenge
Samaipata, Bolivia
Angkor Wat
Swedish stonehenge
Beaghmorenge
Corick
Gilgal Refaim Isreals stonehenge
Kokino, Macedonia
Medicine wheels
Stoplesteinan. Norways stonehenge
Armenia's Stonehenge
Carnac, France
Brodgar, Orkney islands
Machu pichu
Easter Island, Chile
Monk’s Mound at Cahokia, USA
Palenque, South America
Edzná, Mexico
Cholula Pyramid
Standing stones of Er Lannic, France
Loughcrew Cairns, Meath, Ireland
Bryn Celli Ddu, Wales
Knowth necropolis
Monte Alban, Mexico
Tikal.Guatemala
Uxmal
So goggle some or all of these sites an i think you will be suprised what they all have in common. enjoy[/quote]
NEWGRANGE
STONEHENGE
THE GREAT PYRAMID
Teotihuacán
Chichén Itzá
NABATA
Pyramids of Guimar, Canary Islands
Maeshowe
Brazlian stonehenge
North american stonehenge
Samaipata, Bolivia
Angkor Wat
Swedish stonehenge
Beaghmorenge
Corick
Gilgal Refaim Isreals stonehenge
Kokino, Macedonia
Medicine wheels
Stoplesteinan. Norways stonehenge
Armenia's Stonehenge
Carnac, France
Brodgar, Orkney islands
Machu pichu
Easter Island, Chile
Monk’s Mound at Cahokia, USA
Palenque, South America
Edzná, Mexico
Cholula Pyramid
Standing stones of Er Lannic, France
Loughcrew Cairns, Meath, Ireland
Bryn Celli Ddu, Wales
Knowth necropolis
Monte Alban, Mexico
Tikal.Guatemala
Uxmal
So goggle some or all of these sites an i think you will be suprised what they all have in common. enjoy[/quote]
QUOTE (louie @ Jan 11 2008, 04:35 AM)
well i think he is on to something but the answers will not be revealed, but ask your self one question why are many many ancient sites all over the world alligned to similar star groups, solicastes, equinoxs, i dont belive diffrent people all over the orld just all came up with the same idea with no contact what so ever, so there could very well be bigger picture.
NEWGRANGE
STONEHENGE
THE GREAT PYRAMID
Teotihuacán
Chichén Itzá
NABATA
Pyramids of Guimar, Canary Islands
Maeshowe
Brazlian stonehenge
North american stonehenge
Samaipata, Bolivia
Angkor Wat
Swedish stonehenge
Beaghmorenge
Corick
Gilgal Refaim Isreals stonehenge
Kokino, Macedonia
Medicine wheels
Stoplesteinan. Norways stonehenge
Armenia's Stonehenge
Carnac, France
Brodgar, Orkney islands
Machu pichu
Easter Island, Chile
Monk’s Mound at Cahokia, USA
Palenque, South America
Edzná, Mexico
Cholula Pyramid
Standing stones of Er Lannic, France
Loughcrew Cairns, Meath, Ireland
Bryn Celli Ddu, Wales
Knowth necropolis
Monte Alban, Mexico
Tikal.Guatemala
Uxmal
So goggle some or all of these sites an i think you will be suprised what they all have in common. enjoy
NEWGRANGE
STONEHENGE
THE GREAT PYRAMID
Teotihuacán
Chichén Itzá
NABATA
Pyramids of Guimar, Canary Islands
Maeshowe
Brazlian stonehenge
North american stonehenge
Samaipata, Bolivia
Angkor Wat
Swedish stonehenge
Beaghmorenge
Corick
Gilgal Refaim Isreals stonehenge
Kokino, Macedonia
Medicine wheels
Stoplesteinan. Norways stonehenge
Armenia's Stonehenge
Carnac, France
Brodgar, Orkney islands
Machu pichu
Easter Island, Chile
Monk’s Mound at Cahokia, USA
Palenque, South America
Edzná, Mexico
Cholula Pyramid
Standing stones of Er Lannic, France
Loughcrew Cairns, Meath, Ireland
Bryn Celli Ddu, Wales
Knowth necropolis
Monte Alban, Mexico
Tikal.Guatemala
Uxmal
So goggle some or all of these sites an i think you will be suprised what they all have in common. enjoy
Congratuations, you listed off some spectacular archaeological sites! Some of the sites you mentioned are connected because the same culture built them. As far as I'm concerned many of the sites you listed off do not have any particular astronomical alignment. Even if some of the monuments at these sites do have a particular astronomical affiliation, what makes them connected to the monuments of a different culture? Does everything have to be diffusion? No, obviously not, look at all the culturally distinct people in the World. Some of their cultural practice would of had to develop independently, otherwise all the cultures of the World would be the same.
- Regards, Bokonon
QUOTE (Bokonontheancient @ Jan 11 2008, 04:06 PM)
Congratuations, you listed off some spectacular archaeological sites! Some of the sites you mentioned are connected because the same culture built them. As far as I'm concerned many of the sites you listed off do not have any particular astronomical alignment. Even if some of the monuments at these sites do have a particular astronomical affiliation, what makes them connected to the monuments of a different culture? Does everything have to be diffusion? No, obviously not, look at all the culturally distinct people in the World. Some of their cultural practice would of had to develop independently, otherwise all the cultures of the World would be the same.
- Regards, Bokonon
- Regards, Bokonon
Yes they all have astronomical alignments that are similar. check it out for your self.
and note the diffrences in locations
QUOTE (louie @ Jan 11 2008, 01:08 PM)
Yes they all have astronomical alignments that are similar. check it out for your self.
and note the diffrences in locations
and note the diffrences in locations
Ehm yes, and Big Macs are health food .... we know....
Besides, for the sake of the argument, why is it spectacular that events important to agriculture that happen in the same fashion all over the world are recorded in the same manner? That is: by aligning monuments to them?
Or has it failed to come to your attention that all those societies you refer to were predominantly agricultural?
QUOTE (questionmark @ Jan 11 2008, 10:18 AM)
Ehm yes, and Big Macs are health food .... we know....
Besides, for the sake of the argument, why is it spectacular that events important to agriculture that happen in the same fashion all over the world are recorded in the same manner? That is: by aligning monuments to them?
Or has it failed to come to your attention that all those societies you refer to were predominantly agricultural?
Besides, for the sake of the argument, why is it spectacular that events important to agriculture that happen in the same fashion all over the world are recorded in the same manner? That is: by aligning monuments to them?
Or has it failed to come to your attention that all those societies you refer to were predominantly agricultural?
QM -- that isn't interesting or spooky, so it can't possibly be right! You see, history isn't boring small details and logical connections: and if there aren't enough fascinating mysteries and space giants from Pluto, then, well, those just need to be made up to replace the small, boring details.
--Jaylemurph
QUOTE (jaylemurph @ Jan 11 2008, 06:20 PM)
QM -- that isn't interesting or spooky, so it can't possibly be right! You see, history isn't boring small details and logical connections: and if there aren't enough fascinating mysteries and space giants from Pluto, then, well, those just need to be made up to replace the small, boring details.
--Jaylemurph
--Jaylemurph
... like Jung stated: "Who does not have any problems, creates himself some"
QUOTE (questionmark @ Jan 11 2008, 11:25 AM)
... like Jung stated: "Who does not have any problems, creates himself some"
Exactly. I can't knock it, though; somebody's going to have to buy my forth-coming book...
--Jaylemurph
The common traditional scientific explanation is far from satisfactory and logical.
Through all times temples have been used more for spiritual purposes such as worshipping their gods, rituals, mystery schools for initiates etc, rather than mere burial mounds.
In addition there is plenty of evidence at these mentioned monuments that this was their purpose, taking all the spiritual concepts surrounding them in consideration, such as their specific astrological and astronomical alignments, sacred geometrical properties, their specific placement at holy sites that align with eachother throughout the world in a way that far exceeds chance but suggest a deeper spiritual insight and knowledge and purpose of the specific placements, and the contents of the material found within and around these monuments, such as hieroglyphics etc, ancient texts from the time, the belief system and religion of the time and so on. Also the fact they were quite scientifically oriented at the same time, great masters of knowledge, mathematical, architectural, astronomical and so on.
Also there are many other interesting facts and mysteries regarding these monuments that further strengthens the indication towards these monuments being temples for initiation, worship, spiritual teaching, and so on.
Here's a video documenting some interesting facts:
http://www.dark-truth.org/okt21-2006-10.html
Though I do not personally agree with all the personal theories of the presenter of the material it is still of extreme interests and should be given more studies.
Another one with lots of intersting material regarding the egyptian pyramids:
http://www.dark-truth.org/okt21-2006-11.html
A shorter video regarding some ancient monuments and their mysteries:
http://www.dark-truth.org/nov62006-8-ancie...-childress.html
Yet again I do not agree with all the theories of the persons who presents the material, but the material is yet there and very interesting facts. The true purpose is of course up to speculation, but one can reach some probable conclusions from ones own experience within various fields, own research, the research of others, studying both traditional historical records as well as those which are not quite as traditional, compare with other peoples experiences, results of research, conclusions and so on, to make a bigger clearer picture form.
Also check out these video series with Anthony West for more information on the spiritual use of the pyramid/temples: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22j...=0&start=10
The Temple of Man series is particularly interesting
And to clear away from the mystical and spiritual aspects for a moment, here is an interesting video showing a very possible way that might explain how these enormous ancient monuments were built:
http://www.dark-truth.org/videos/ancient-s...ery-solved.html
So my conclusion is the same, these ancient monuments, most of them at least such as the great pyramids we have been discussing here, were used as temples for other purposes than just burying a dead guy. To me the evidence indicates quite more interesting and probable uses that also seems more logical than building a huge stone structure for years and years just to bury some old dead bugger below it.
Through all times temples have been used more for spiritual purposes such as worshipping their gods, rituals, mystery schools for initiates etc, rather than mere burial mounds.
In addition there is plenty of evidence at these mentioned monuments that this was their purpose, taking all the spiritual concepts surrounding them in consideration, such as their specific astrological and astronomical alignments, sacred geometrical properties, their specific placement at holy sites that align with eachother throughout the world in a way that far exceeds chance but suggest a deeper spiritual insight and knowledge and purpose of the specific placements, and the contents of the material found within and around these monuments, such as hieroglyphics etc, ancient texts from the time, the belief system and religion of the time and so on. Also the fact they were quite scientifically oriented at the same time, great masters of knowledge, mathematical, architectural, astronomical and so on.
Also there are many other interesting facts and mysteries regarding these monuments that further strengthens the indication towards these monuments being temples for initiation, worship, spiritual teaching, and so on.
Here's a video documenting some interesting facts:
http://www.dark-truth.org/okt21-2006-10.html
Though I do not personally agree with all the personal theories of the presenter of the material it is still of extreme interests and should be given more studies.
Another one with lots of intersting material regarding the egyptian pyramids:
http://www.dark-truth.org/okt21-2006-11.html
A shorter video regarding some ancient monuments and their mysteries:
http://www.dark-truth.org/nov62006-8-ancie...-childress.html
Yet again I do not agree with all the theories of the persons who presents the material, but the material is yet there and very interesting facts. The true purpose is of course up to speculation, but one can reach some probable conclusions from ones own experience within various fields, own research, the research of others, studying both traditional historical records as well as those which are not quite as traditional, compare with other peoples experiences, results of research, conclusions and so on, to make a bigger clearer picture form.
Also check out these video series with Anthony West for more information on the spiritual use of the pyramid/temples: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22j...=0&start=10
The Temple of Man series is particularly interesting
And to clear away from the mystical and spiritual aspects for a moment, here is an interesting video showing a very possible way that might explain how these enormous ancient monuments were built:
http://www.dark-truth.org/videos/ancient-s...ery-solved.html
So my conclusion is the same, these ancient monuments, most of them at least such as the great pyramids we have been discussing here, were used as temples for other purposes than just burying a dead guy. To me the evidence indicates quite more interesting and probable uses that also seems more logical than building a huge stone structure for years and years just to bury some old dead bugger below it.
QUOTE (Bokonontheancient @ Jan 11 2008, 10:06 AM)
Care to reveal any of your "sacred" knowledge so as to "enlighten" us about the true purpose of the pyramids and sarcophagi in Egypt and the stepped pyramids at Teotihuacan and other Mesoamerican sites. Please, I beg you, give me any sort of information from some obscure ancient society that draws its knowledge from ancient texts that are so secretive, that the contents of the texts may not be revealed. I just don't get it. Why are people so ready to believe someone's "knowledge" of ancient texts of a "secret society", that may or may not exist, which "tell" of what the true purpose of ancient monuments "really" are, when science and verifiable history offer a far superior, more logical explanation (based on empirical evidence, accurate written accounts, and observable patterns) for the purpose and use of these ancient monuments? It seems as if many people on this forum don't even take the time to acknowledge the hard work and constant dedication that archaeologists, paleoanthropologists, and historians put into their careers. Apparently, on this forum it is much easier for people to believe what some pseudo-archaeologist, (historian), ect. has to say (which often is based on little or no scientific observations or empirical evidence) rather than the (what people deem) "orthodox" scientific view "which limits human creativity". Until people see that science is not trying to remain "status quo", but rather is constantly re-evaluating past conclusions (with new scientific evidence) to obtain a more objective view of the World, and that science does not seek "to limit human creativity" but rather to explore new questions about the Universe around us (in a logical manner), then there is little hope for the objective knowledge science and verifiable history strive to provide on this forum. It seems like much could be resolved, if people on this forum cared to take the time to read about what science really is and what it tries to achieve, rather than discount the "orthodox" scientific views which they think "limit the imagination". I hope that someday (this may be a bit too optimistic) that people on UM go into debates at least looking over the scientific and historical side of a topic before perpetuating some explanation for a topic that is based on intuition and feeling rather than logical (deduced or induced) thought.
- Regards, Bokonon
- Regards, Bokonon
And if you want some interesting material regarding ancient alignments that matches eachother around the world, both when it comes to the physical construction of sites, as well as their planetary and astronomical alignments etc, as well as modern once go through the different sections down on the page at this site:
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/
QUOTE (Bokonontheancient @ Jan 11 2008, 05:06 AM)
Care to reveal any of your "sacred" knowledge so as to "enlighten" us about the true purpose of the pyramids and sarcophagi in Egypt and the stepped pyramids at Teotihuacan and other Mesoamerican sites. Please, I beg you, give me any sort of information from some obscure ancient society that draws its knowledge from ancient texts that are so secretive, that the contents of the texts may not be revealed. I just don't get it. Why are people so ready to believe someone's "knowledge" of ancient texts of a "secret society", that may or may not exist, which "tell" of what the true purpose of ancient monuments "really" are, when science and verifiable history offer a far superior, more logical explanation (based on empirical evidence, accurate written accounts, and observable patterns) for the purpose and use of these ancient monuments? It seems as if many people on this forum don't even take the time to acknowledge the hard work and constant dedication that archaeologists, paleoanthropologists, and historians put into their careers. Apparently, on this forum it is much easier for people to believe what some pseudo-archaeologist, (historian), ect. has to say (which often is based on little or no scientific observations or empirical evidence) rather than the (what people deem) "orthodox" scientific view "which limits human creativity". Until people see that science is not trying to remain "status quo", but rather is constantly re-evaluating past conclusions (with new scientific evidence) to obtain a more objective view of the World, and that science does not seek "to limit human creativity" but rather to explore new questions about the Universe around us (in a logical manner), then there is little hope for the objective knowledge science and verifiable history strive to provide on this forum. It seems like much could be resolved, if people on this forum cared to take the time to read about what science really is and what it tries to achieve, rather than discount the "orthodox" scientific views which they think "limit the imagination". I hope that someday (this may be a bit too optimistic) that people on UM go into debates at least looking over the scientific and historical side of a topic before perpetuating some explanation for a topic that is based on intuition and feeling rather than logical (deduced or induced) thought.
- Regards, Bokonon
- Regards, Bokonon
I didn't see this earlier or I would have said something about it. I think you're completely correct.
I think there are two reasons people are drawn to the stuff and non-sense type of history. One -- like I said above, it's just more interesting. And if reality isn't entertaining enough, it will be altered. This I tend to find more disturbing, because it suggests people are using history as entertainment, rather than a way to learn more about who we are as a society or culture or species, or a tool to help create a better future. Certainly, making up histories where we were created by aliens from monkey-slaves is interesting, but it doesn't teach much (except maybe "don't rape monkey-people from another planet unless you want them to create their culture and make you a god".
And two -- people are just too lazy a) learn actual history and how it works and
to be actively discerning readers. If you don't know actual history, monkey-raping aliens *might* sound reasonable. You might think civilization appeared fully-formed with writing and architecture, un-helped, one Thursday afternoon in Sumeria. You might think covert societies last for millennia and are trying to rule the world. These become even more likely when you see them in print, but lack the ability to evaluate where their "evidence" is coming from, or who is writing such things, or what their intent in writing is. If you throw in some other things, like a twinge of messianism, or a gyp with history or science for not believing your "research", or religious fanaticism, you've got a tailor-made recipient for whatever pseudo-study you want.
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Jan 11 2008, 01:28 PM)
And if you want some interesting material regarding ancient alignments that matches eachother around the world, both when it comes to the physical construction of sites, as well as their planetary and astronomical alignments etc, as well as modern once go through the different sections down on the page at this site:
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/
http://www.thehiddenrecords.com/
You start out sounding reasonable, DB, but when you start talking about super-secret documents held by millennia-old covens, it gets fishy. If you know what they say, say so, in no uncertain terms. If you know who these groups are, say so. If you don't, you sound a lot like you're making it up -- and without these documents, there's no reason to think you're not.
Again, when you start to mention spiritual truths and especially astrology, or how science isn't "logical" enough, it sends up all sorts of red lights. If you can't make your points reasonably and straightforwardly, how can we help but think talking about spirits and astrology is a de facto opting out of the conversation?
--Jaylemurph
Jaylemurph:
Your theories, one and two, are quite possible solutions for many cases
But you fail to mention number three: That some people actually do experience something more than the common person, and do indeed have real spiritual experiences and gain insights and knowledge about their own existence as well as the structure of the world and its governmental systems in general.
You may not personally believe that, but still you can't rule it out as there are people, like myself, claiming to do such things, and have had such experiences, and even had them verified for ourselves and in groups.
Yes, I agree more scientific research needs to be done and published on these matters but the best way to find out anything is to do that research on your own rather than relying on other peoples results.
After all its a fact that can't be denied that many of the presidents, people from hight positions in the governments, and all sorts of so called "high profiled" and "sensible" people, including many leading scientists, and all kind of people, are indeed members of many of these secret orders, and practicing psychic and spiritual matters and that should at least give some indications that it may be something more to it than just a bunch of raving mad men and people
Your theories, one and two, are quite possible solutions for many cases
But you fail to mention number three: That some people actually do experience something more than the common person, and do indeed have real spiritual experiences and gain insights and knowledge about their own existence as well as the structure of the world and its governmental systems in general.
You may not personally believe that, but still you can't rule it out as there are people, like myself, claiming to do such things, and have had such experiences, and even had them verified for ourselves and in groups.
Yes, I agree more scientific research needs to be done and published on these matters but the best way to find out anything is to do that research on your own rather than relying on other peoples results.
After all its a fact that can't be denied that many of the presidents, people from hight positions in the governments, and all sorts of so called "high profiled" and "sensible" people, including many leading scientists, and all kind of people, are indeed members of many of these secret orders, and practicing psychic and spiritual matters and that should at least give some indications that it may be something more to it than just a bunch of raving mad men and people
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Jan 11 2008, 09:27 PM)
You may not personally believe that, but still you can't rule it out as there are people, like myself, claiming to do such things, and have had such experiences, and even had them verified for ourselves and in groups.
Can't be ruled out, but most of those are happening in places called "mental wards".
QUOTE (questionmark @ Jan 11 2008, 07:47 PM)
Can't be ruled out, but most of those are happening in places called "mental wards".
No actually most of them are happening among the common people, millions of people around the world practice these things on their own, then you have all the different mystery schools, secret orders, societies, paranormal and psychic groups etc that probably also counts some million people, who also practice these things.
You have the whole "New Age" movement, and this is quite a popular topic these days, which has a great and very broad audience.
You have the governments practicing it and running projects researching these things. F
Famous politicians, scientists, actors, artists, and so on.
So it's more than you expect.
And in addition comes those numbers of people in mental wards as well
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Jan 11 2008, 02:27 PM)
Jaylemurph:
Your theories, one and two, are quite possible solutions for many cases
But you fail to mention number three: That some people actually do experience something more than the common person, and do indeed have real spiritual experiences and gain insights and knowledge about their own existence as well as the structure of the world and its governmental systems in general.
You may not personally believe that, but still you can't rule it out as there are people, like myself, claiming to do such things, and have had such experiences, and even had them verified for ourselves and in groups.
Your theories, one and two, are quite possible solutions for many cases
But you fail to mention number three: That some people actually do experience something more than the common person, and do indeed have real spiritual experiences and gain insights and knowledge about their own existence as well as the structure of the world and its governmental systems in general.
You may not personally believe that, but still you can't rule it out as there are people, like myself, claiming to do such things, and have had such experiences, and even had them verified for ourselves and in groups.
You're quite right. I can't argue against that, but just as much as it might be "something more than the common" as you say, it might be something common that gets (deliberately or not) misunderstood, no matter how many people involved. And as much as I think that's most often the case, it's unfair to judge these things on anything less than a case-by-case basis.
It's worth noting that even if you or anyone else /believes/ these things, that doesn't mean it's objectively true. Belief is completely different from objective reality, and isn't a basis for judgment.
QUOTE
After all its a fact that can't be denied that many of the presidents, people from hight positions in the governments, and all sorts of so called "high profiled" and "sensible" people, including many leading scientists, and all kind of people, are indeed members of many of these secret orders, and practicing psychic and spiritual matters and that should at least give some indications that it may be something more to it than just a bunch of raving mad men and people
Well, the existence of these societies /can/ be denied (and I'm doing it right now, actually), so therefore it /can/ be denied that people belong to them. I think this is an example of what I said above; you believe it can't be denied, yet here I am, denying it for all I'm worth. And conversely, I'm happy to admit that just because I don't believe they exist, doesn't mean they aren't real.
However, the quality of the people who might believe in any of this is no guarantee of its validity, as you seem to suggest. "You can fool all of the people some of the time" and whatnot.
I'm happy to leave spiritual matters up to those who are interested in them, but when people come forward claiming these things have impact on history or modern politicking, the fact that these are spiritual matters isn't a by for you to skip out on compelling reasons to credit you. In an important way, your still alleging all manner of secrets but not giving us anything substantial reason to base that on, especially when you're essentially suggesting that some or all of our current knowledge is bunk.
--Jaylemurph
QUOTE (jaylemurph @ Jan 11 2008, 09:39 PM)
You're quite right. I can't argue against that, but just as much as it might be "something more than the common" as you say, it might be something common that gets (deliberately or not) misunderstood, no matter how many people involved. And as much as I think that's most often the case, it's unfair to judge these things on anything less than a case-by-case basis.
It's worth noting that even if you or anyone else /believes/ these things, that doesn't mean it's objectively true. Belief is completely different from objective reality, and isn't a basis for judgment.
Well, the existence of these societies /can/ be denied (and I'm doing it right now, actually), so therefore it /can/ be denied that people belong to them. I think this is an example of what I said above; you believe it can't be denied, yet here I am, denying it for all I'm worth. And conversely, I'm happy to admit that just because I don't believe they exist, doesn't mean they aren't real.
However, the quality of the people who might believe in any of this is no guarantee of its validity, as you seem to suggest. "You can fool all of the people some of the time" and whatnot.
I'm happy to leave spiritual matters up to those who are interested in them, but when people come forward claiming these things have impact on history or modern politicking, the fact that these are spiritual matters isn't a by for you to skip out on compelling reasons to credit you. In an important way, your still alleging all manner of secrets but not giving us anything substantial reason to base that on, especially when you're essentially suggesting that some or all of our current knowledge is bunk.
--Jaylemurph
It's worth noting that even if you or anyone else /believes/ these things, that doesn't mean it's objectively true. Belief is completely different from objective reality, and isn't a basis for judgment.
Well, the existence of these societies /can/ be denied (and I'm doing it right now, actually), so therefore it /can/ be denied that people belong to them. I think this is an example of what I said above; you believe it can't be denied, yet here I am, denying it for all I'm worth. And conversely, I'm happy to admit that just because I don't believe they exist, doesn't mean they aren't real.
However, the quality of the people who might believe in any of this is no guarantee of its validity, as you seem to suggest. "You can fool all of the people some of the time" and whatnot.
I'm happy to leave spiritual matters up to those who are interested in them, but when people come forward claiming these things have impact on history or modern politicking, the fact that these are spiritual matters isn't a by for you to skip out on compelling reasons to credit you. In an important way, your still alleging all manner of secrets but not giving us anything substantial reason to base that on, especially when you're essentially suggesting that some or all of our current knowledge is bunk.
--Jaylemurph
Of course you can personally deny the existence of secret societies, but a fact doesn't cease to exist just because you personally don't believe in it. And, truly, the existence of such secret societies is more than just a theory, it is a well established and documented fact.
Cheers.
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Jan 11 2008, 09:59 PM)
Of course you can personally deny the existence of secret societies, but a fact doesn't cease to exist just because you personally don't believe in it. And, truly, the existence of such secret societies is more than just a theory, it is a well established and documented fact.
Cheers.
Cheers.
And conversely, just because you believe it or "experience" it doesn't mean it's real. Dreams are genuinely experienced, but not real. Although this is becoming distinctly Cartesian, and his philosophy is always a bit cheap.
And (for what, the third or fourth time?), if these do exist and are so well documented, show us! At least give us something more convincing than youtube videos: documentaries, remember, /aren't/ evidence, they're at best second-hand presentations of it. I can swear up and down the daleks are real, and say "It's a well-known and well-documented fact" but saying it doesn't make it any more or less real. A used dalek casing: this is evidence. The report of someone on the Empire State Building in 1965 who saw one: this is evidence. I'd even give you someone with genuine credentials and reputation's opinion. You claim personal insight, but you don't even give that!
--Jaylemurph
If you are denying the existent of secret societies, you are merely ignorant, and certainly havn't taken that phd of yours of history very well in use.
look up some things on your own for crying out loud.
History books are filled with information about these orders, so are the lexicons.
They are still around and active, and you can even seek them up and apply for membership if you so desire to get to know more about their internal structure and what they are really about.
I already told you several orders that are still active and dates back to around one thousand years at most, as well as couple others, which are commonly regarded historical facts for any historian and got nothing to do with pseudo-science or the paranormal or new age sh**.
Do some research on your own too instead of letting others do the work for you, I gave you enough info about these orders already to get started on, and apparantly, as far I remember, you said you were familiar with some of them and their existence, and no you suddenly say they are not real.
What an odd creature.
look up some things on your own for crying out loud.
History books are filled with information about these orders, so are the lexicons.
They are still around and active, and you can even seek them up and apply for membership if you so desire to get to know more about their internal structure and what they are really about.
I already told you several orders that are still active and dates back to around one thousand years at most, as well as couple others, which are commonly regarded historical facts for any historian and got nothing to do with pseudo-science or the paranormal or new age sh**.
Do some research on your own too instead of letting others do the work for you, I gave you enough info about these orders already to get started on, and apparantly, as far I remember, you said you were familiar with some of them and their existence, and no you suddenly say they are not real.
What an odd creature.
And here is a video of George Bush and John Kerry admitting their membership in one of such secret orders, namely the Skull & Bones, and they refuse to give any details about what its really about "because its so secret they can't even talk about it"
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/448827/bush_...et_group_skull/
Why do presidents, and presidential canditates, have to be member of same small secret order, and at the same time deny to speak anything about them, yet they admit they exist and that they are both members?
In other words, wouldnt matter who won by kerry or bush, they are both on the same team and working for the same people, as it seems.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/448827/bush_...et_group_skull/
Why do presidents, and presidential canditates, have to be member of same small secret order, and at the same time deny to speak anything about them, yet they admit they exist and that they are both members?
In other words, wouldnt matter who won by kerry or bush, they are both on the same team and working for the same people, as it seems.
Darkbreed and JM.....the topic is on Pyramid Machines...now you have branched off to Secret societies....... 
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Jan 11 2008, 11:08 PM)
If you are denying the existent of secret societies, you are merely ignorant, and certainly havn't taken that phd of yours of history very well in use.
look up some things on your own for crying out loud.
History books are filled with information about these orders, so are the lexicons.
They are still around and active, and you can even seek them up and apply for membership if you so desire to get to know more about their internal structure and what they are really about.
I already told you several orders that are still active and dates back to around one thousand years at most, as well as couple others, which are commonly regarded historical facts for any historian and got nothing to do with pseudo-science or the paranormal or new age sh**.
Do some research on your own too instead of letting others do the work for you, I gave you enough info about these orders already to get started on, and apparantly, as far I remember, you said you were familiar with some of them and their existence, and no you suddenly say they are not real.
What an odd creature.
look up some things on your own for crying out loud.
History books are filled with information about these orders, so are the lexicons.
They are still around and active, and you can even seek them up and apply for membership if you so desire to get to know more about their internal structure and what they are really about.
I already told you several orders that are still active and dates back to around one thousand years at most, as well as couple others, which are commonly regarded historical facts for any historian and got nothing to do with pseudo-science or the paranormal or new age sh**.
Do some research on your own too instead of letting others do the work for you, I gave you enough info about these orders already to get started on, and apparantly, as far I remember, you said you were familiar with some of them and their existence, and no you suddenly say they are not real.
What an odd creature.
See, the thing is, I've done it. I know the histories of these groups and can come up with names and dates to support what I'm saying -- see above, where you mention the Rosicrucians, but don't seem to have too firm a grasp on what they were doing or why they stopped doing it -- and (more importantly) I know the date when most of them passed out of existence. I mean, you're the one advocating researching Pierre Plantard, who's a well-known hoaxer, and that kinda disproves a lot of what you've been saying. If you know better than The Rest of History, it's up to *you* to prove what you're talking about.
You keep claiming to be holding on to some knowledge that'll disprove this, but you seem unwilling to come forth with it. Till you can come forth with something other than youtube videos to prove what you know, I'm gonna take it you, like the boy who cried wolf, can't come up with the goods.
--Jaylemurph
QUOTE (jaylemurph @ Jan 12 2008, 05:28 AM)
See, the thing is, I've done it. I know the histories of these groups and can come up with names and dates to support what I'm saying -- see above, where you mention the Rosicrucians, but don't seem to have too firm a grasp on what they were doing or why they stopped doing it -- and (more importantly) I know the date when most of them passed out of existence. I mean, you're the one advocating researching Pierre Plantard, who's a well-known hoaxer, and that kinda disproves a lot of what you've been saying. If you know better than The Rest of History, it's up to *you* to prove what you're talking about.
You keep claiming to be holding on to some knowledge that'll disprove this, but you seem unwilling to come forth with it. Till you can come forth with something other than youtube videos to prove what you know, I'm gonna take it you, like the boy who cried wolf, can't come up with the goods.
--Jaylemurph
You keep claiming to be holding on to some knowledge that'll disprove this, but you seem unwilling to come forth with it. Till you can come forth with something other than youtube videos to prove what you know, I'm gonna take it you, like the boy who cried wolf, can't come up with the goods.
--Jaylemurph
I never claimed Pierre Plantard and his guys are correct in all ther assumptions and theories. But it is no doubt a lot of factual history in their books, which is well documented and can be researched and verified on its own.
I dont base my work, or theories, or ideas on him at all, it was just an example of a book that contains many valid referances, though certainly some may not be as valid as other, which is the case of most historical books in any case.
The rosicrucians are still around by the way, now in seperate groups, where several claim direct lineage to the original one, partially because several of them have split up and thus have the same background but created their new independent rosicrucian based orders, and thus still relate to the true rosircrucian order of more times back in history. I've been around in a couple different of these orders myself, and still am member of a rosicrucian order amonth other orders, and it is no doubt they posess great knowledge and insight that dates way back and has been perfected and adapted through times to suit the people of the current generation.
This goes for various other orders as well.
Cheers
QUOTE (questionmark @ Jan 11 2008, 08:18 PM)
Ehm yes, and Big Macs are health food .... we know....
Besides, for the sake of the argument, why is it spectacular that events important to agriculture that happen in the same fashion all over the world are recorded in the same manner? That is: by aligning monuments to them?
Or has it failed to come to your attention that all those societies you refer to were predominantly agricultural?
Besides, for the sake of the argument, why is it spectacular that events important to agriculture that happen in the same fashion all over the world are recorded in the same manner? That is: by aligning monuments to them?
Or has it failed to come to your attention that all those societies you refer to were predominantly agricultural?
Yes you are correct on the agriculture aspect if you care to check,the sites i listed. over half of the sites have nothing to do with agriculturual alignments.
although it does play a big part and the fundementals are the same. not all were built for that purpose.
QUOTE (louie @ Jan 12 2008, 12:06 PM)
Yes you are correct on the agriculture aspect if you care to check,the sites i listed. over half of the sites have nothing to do with agriculturual alignments.
although it does play a big part and the fundementals are the same. not all were built for that purpose.
although it does play a big part and the fundementals are the same. not all were built for that purpose.
Oh? you mean there is only one way to establish an equinox?
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Jan 12 2008, 03:49 AM)
The rosicrucians are still around by the way, now in seperate groups, where several claim direct lineage to the original one, partially because several of them have split up and thus have the same background but created their new independent rosicrucian based orders, and thus still relate to the true rosircrucian order of more times back in history. I've been around in a couple different of these orders myself, and still am member of a rosicrucian order amonth other orders, and it is no doubt they posess great knowledge and insight that dates way back and has been perfected and adapted through times to suit the people of the current generation.
The original Rosicrucian is *not* still around. There may be groups calling themselves that, and credulous people like yourself who believe them, but that has nothing to do with the group in the 1620s.
In terms devoid of the pointless mysticism and obscurity you apparently have a weakness for, the Rosicrucians were a group of Protestant, pro-English German intellectuals near Heidelberg favoring what might broadly be called a scientific revolution, and the reign of one particular prince to become the King of Bavaria (the Elector Palantine of the time). But they were essentially a kind of intellectual joke or game -- and called themselves that on several occasions. "They" being only two or three people, maybe just one (Johannes Andreae). There are lots of people who wrote of trying to find them, but not one ever of anybody actually joining up. Because there was nothing to join. They certainly did not exist before 1615 or so, and had you actually read their manifestos (and you can here and here), you'd see that they don't pretend to come from ancient founts of wisdom. They don't even pretend to be a secret organization in the way you seem to use the term. They were quite happy to be out in the open. They wanted to heal the sick and teach everyone. You can't do that from the shadows.
But within a few years, they passed out of existence, mostly because of the Thirty Years' War, and the losses and death of Frederick, Elector Palantine. Nobody wrote tracts any more (which was the only thing they had ever done). Nobody went looking for them. Nobody found them. And they didn't keep going along in secret, hiding in the shadows or breaking into splinter groups that kept the name alive and passing on their perfected and adapted wisdom.
Like I said before, people who don't do proper historical work don't understand the specific, contemporary political aims of the group. They don't understand how they use allegories and metaphor, and assume the wild things they say are literally true, when they were never meant to be taken so. And also like I said, indulging fantasy is much more interesting than the quotidian reality of history, so people of the inclination to make up secret societies anyway are going to make up all manner of stories based on their partial understanding to justify their going off to the basement to be silly. And they have no problem finding people even more gullible than they are to follow them.
Now see, this post, what with its specific reference to people, places, events and ideas (and even a source -- The Rosicrucian Enlighenment by Dame Francis Yates) is of a completley different ilk of the ones where you mention vague ideas and spiritual knowledges and shadowy groups. Increasingly, it looks a lot like you can't come up with facts because you just don't have any to give.
--Jaylemurph
Did you ever look into the Francis Bacon / Shakespeare connection and its relationship to rosicrucianism?
Here is some info: http://www.sirbacon.org/links/evidence.htm
Here is an example of a possible explanation to the "shakespeare" pseudonym:
He venerated Pallas Athena, one description of whom is “Goddess of Knowledge” who “shakes her spear and causes the darkness of ignorance to retreat."
Some more on Shapespeare - Francis connection:
http://www.shakespeareidentity.co.uk/francis-bacon.htm
Saying that the rosicrucians died out is rather extreme as they were a large group who carried on the work further and spread it, even though they partially split up, changed names, and what not. People are still practising the same systems as they did back then, and consisting of groups devoting themselves to this same work.
In many families and groups related to them, the orders have been active for centuries, at different levels, and of course it might have changed some of it basic structure and teachings and improved on it through time, but still connects to the original older orders. Also many of these older orders connects to even more ancient orders, as members of other orders decided to create new ones that was more in tune with their own view and beliefs and experiences etc.
Cheers
Here is some info: http://www.sirbacon.org/links/evidence.htm
Here is an example of a possible explanation to the "shakespeare" pseudonym:
He venerated Pallas Athena, one description of whom is “Goddess of Knowledge” who “shakes her spear and causes the darkness of ignorance to retreat."
Some more on Shapespeare - Francis connection:
http://www.shakespeareidentity.co.uk/francis-bacon.htm
Saying that the rosicrucians died out is rather extreme as they were a large group who carried on the work further and spread it, even though they partially split up, changed names, and what not. People are still practising the same systems as they did back then, and consisting of groups devoting themselves to this same work.
In many families and groups related to them, the orders have been active for centuries, at different levels, and of course it might have changed some of it basic structure and teachings and improved on it through time, but still connects to the original older orders. Also many of these older orders connects to even more ancient orders, as members of other orders decided to create new ones that was more in tune with their own view and beliefs and experiences etc.
Cheers
Also remember that Rosicrucian is a name they termed themselves as a group, their main system of practice was that of hermeticism and alchemy and such, which it still is.
Also remember that the freemsaons incorporated rosicrucian systems and even rites such as the Rosy Cross rite (if I remember correctly), and that freemaons and rosicrucians went more or less hand in hand and still does to this day - so many of the rosicrucians of the times you are referring to, went over to freemasonry, which of course still exists and is the largest such order of these days, but that doesn't mant that none of them went back to reactivate the rosicrucian order together based on the original teachings and systems of the original order (if they ever dismantled in the first place as you suggest)
Also remember that the freemsaons incorporated rosicrucian systems and even rites such as the Rosy Cross rite (if I remember correctly), and that freemaons and rosicrucians went more or less hand in hand and still does to this day - so many of the rosicrucians of the times you are referring to, went over to freemasonry, which of course still exists and is the largest such order of these days, but that doesn't mant that none of them went back to reactivate the rosicrucian order together based on the original teachings and systems of the original order (if they ever dismantled in the first place as you suggest)
QUOTE (darkbreed @ Jan 12 2008, 04:47 PM)
Did you ever look into the Francis Bacon / Shakespeare connection and its relationship to rosicrucianism?
Here is some info: http://www.sirbacon.org/links/evidence.htm
Here is an example of a possible explanation to the "shakespeare" pseudonym:
He venerated Pallas Athena, one description of whom is “Goddess of Knowledge” who “shakes her spear and causes the darkness of ignorance to retreat."
Some more on Shapespeare - Francis connection:
http://www.shakespeareidentity.co.uk/francis-bacon.htm
Here is some info: http://www.sirbacon.org/links/evidence.htm
Here is an example of a possible explanation to the "shakespeare" pseudonym:
He venerated Pallas Athena, one description of whom is “Goddess of Knowledge” who “shakes her spear and causes the darkness of ignorance to retreat."
Some more on Shapespeare - Francis connection:
http://www.shakespeareidentity.co.uk/francis-bacon.htm
That history degree, DB, is a degree in the /Theatre/ History and Criticism. Any talk that Shakespeare wasn't really Shakespeare is utter, utter sh**e -- and it's not even worth it to discuss it. You've shown a distinct lack of discernment in belief when it comes to the pointlessly esoteric, so saying things like "we've got his will" or "we have pages of his plays in his own handwriting" and "we have lots of thoroughly reputable people telling well-documented stories about being with Shakespeare" and "any daft theory why Shakespeare didn't write his own stuff is ultimately derived from 18th Century intellectual snobbery" would be pointless.
QUOTE
Saying that the rosicrucians died out is rather extreme as they were a large group
No, they never claimed to have more then 13 or so members. You'd know that had you actually read their texts. There's no proof that there were actually more than two or three members. There might just have been the one.
QUOTE
who carried on the work further and spread it, even though they partially split up, changed names, and what not. People are still practising the same systems as they did back then, and consisting of groups devoting themselves to this same work.
All you have to do is come up with names, dates, texts, passing references to be believed. You've sort of shot your wad, as it were, with the unverified claims getting believed on their own merits.
QUOTE
In many families and groups related to them, the orders have been active for centuries, at different levels, and of course it might have changed some of it basic structure and teachings and improved on it through time, but still connects to the original older orders.
Ahh, but they never claimed *any* association with older claims. Again, if you had read their tracts, you might know that. They were quite proud of their originality and new thoughts.
Maybe some re-creation of them did later make such claims, but it's so far against their stated intents as to invalidate any association with them.
Again, you'll notice I keep referring to actual texts these people wrote, so there is a source for what I'm saying, that can be checked and verified. You're still just throwing out claims with no backup, and sounding increasingly like you don't actually know much about the Fraternity.
--Jaylemurph
Thought this thread was about Pyramid Machines...
I have read Christopher Dunns book 'The Giza Powerplant' and I suggest that Questionmark, MoonPrincess, Jaylemurph and Darkbreed et al have not. Read this book and you will never believe the Great Pyramid was anything other than a machine.
The Great Pyramid of Giza was a machine made by men with machine tools.
Read the book and weep!
I have read Christopher Dunns book 'The Giza Powerplant' and I suggest that Questionmark, MoonPrincess, Jaylemurph and Darkbreed et al have not. Read this book and you will never believe the Great Pyramid was anything other than a machine.
The Great Pyramid of Giza was a machine made by men with machine tools.
Read the book and weep!
QUOTE (pinkgrapefruit @ Jan 13 2008, 01:47 AM)
Read the book and weep!
Only if I don't have to pay for it, I am against supporting fraud.
Questionmark, can I suggest a Library!
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