So what do you think about IVF?



Me too, but then there are people who think it's okay to kill anyone because God commands it.

I don't think the two can be compared, I will give you a more detailed answer as to why in a bit, Always a pleasure

If Father God speaks with you or anyone else, Iam all ears as to what He (Father said) Then I will make up my own mind as to Believe or not.

You do not have to believe me, Just saying what I know.
God does not live in a Book, written by a Man, God is truly alive and is spirit. and Not limited by what is written in any scripture or Book, even though religions would have you think to the contrary

Love Omnaka

I think it is sad.

Love Omnaka

When One's spirit Gets enlightened enough, He is offered the Choice of Creating a world.

When this choice is accepted, He is given the secret to creation and In his last life, He will meet an intended To share this world with, Then they in essence will be God of their own world, Creatingt spirit children, and Bodies for these spirit children to incarnate in to to advance, or experience their eternal spirit.

I know I repeat my self quite a bit, sorry if it is not to your liking, People ask the same questions a lot too.

Love Omnaka

It's not an argument, It is a statement, wether you believe Or not is The moot.

Love Omnaka

What about things like hormone therapy? IVF? Fertility drugs? Ovarian grafts? There are millions of procedures done every year without which children would not be created.

God commands it??? where did you get that from??

I simply said It would not suceed, God simply said He would not put a spirt in a Human clone.

There for any murder or Mistakes made in a lab will be on Man, not God.

God is not against Cloning, But Man is not ready , or accountable enough To do this, But they can try all they like.

They can even blame God if they like after all their failures, does not mean anything. With all the Abortions, ands killing Going On in the world today, what exactly would the point in making Clones be?

Something else to kill?

I can see Cloning Body parts To help what God has created, But what exactly is the point in creating a Human clone in whole?

To see if they can do it?

Maybe even as a spare Body for your spirit to go in to?

Maybe you could keep it chained in the lab, and milk it for vital fluids?

Who do you think would be Stripping it of its rights, were it to succeed, My bet would be the scientist, and anyone who wanted a clone for Parts.
And those who Just favor Human cloning who point the finger at those who do not give it equal rights, What is their motivation for doing this, to see if it gets equal rights?

Please enlighten me as to why you would Try.

Love Omnaka

Well I was doing some research on these very things and the best answer I have right now is, Cloning is creating a complete human and is done through alternating DNA and intro is helping God along but were not creating somthing from DNA that is altered. It comes down to .....These medical advancments do help create life but not life that will live on its own there still is some human connected but cloning through alternated DNA is essentialy creating life as God. Now I know that does not make much sense but I am not through putting together what I have found on these things in my mind. I know that sounds nutso but bear with me, It will hopfuly make alot of sense when I finish I will post. Thanks for the reply Fluffybunny, I must sound like a rambling idiot but I assure you I will make my point soon here, Always a pleasure

that is just it; who are you or I to say where the line is drawn? You say that part of it is OK, but the next guy says that even organs and tissues are going too far. I am not trying to be offensive, but it is a society as a whole that makes these decisions, not a person, a religion, or a small group of people. It is like every other ethical issue that has come down the pike; it is just something that is addressed by those effected by the decision first off, then the medical community and the wider community a whole.

I respect that you believe you have a direct line to a god. maybe you do. maybe it is THE god. maybe it is Satan. maybe it is something in between or different altogether, but that does not give you any more credibility in saying what (imaginary) factor is or is not going to be applied. It is just rather presumptuous and it kind of puts me off, even as nice as you have tried to be about it.

I am in an ambulance on a daily basis. I have driven jesus himself to the hospital twice, he was very nice. I have had aliens and demons too. I tend to take claims of communication with god with a very large grain of salt considering that it has only even claimed to have happened to a handful of people over the history of the billions of people on the planet. The odds are just against the idea. So that being considered I will withhold judgement as to whether cloning in its entirety is even necessary, what can come out of it scientifically. In my opinion cloning tissues and organs is a given, but I come from a more medical point of view and my opinion is skewed that way, I can see that some people would be uncomfortable with that though.

whether a soul even exists is debatable, so it is all rather a pointless disscussion I guess...

Yup pointless, and for the record I do not claim to Be Jesus or Father (God), I do claim to be Jesus' brother and Father's (God's) Son.

Love Omnaka

Are you confusing me with Omnaka( NO OFFENSE Omanaka) , I do not have a direct link to God. I pray and talk to God that way just as everyone else does. It's not up to me and society as a whole has a say, Me alone is it my place to say well I believe I have a right to an opinion but no I am nobody to say one way or the other.Just as your no one to say one way or another. I am being presumptuous by stating my opinion I have to say I have never been Called presumptuous before and I am sorry you are put off by MY OPINION, But I am entitled to one. I have never once claimed to have a direct link or any kind of communication with God, I read the bible and study and that gives me the opinions I have about God and I have alot to learn and will never learn all their is to know reguarding God, But I'll continue to learn reguardless of what anyone thinks. I really, honestly don't think this is an issue for us anyway, Our opinions wil not mean squat by the time a human clone is completed and living amoung us. Human Cloning, In MY OPINION will not happen for A very long Time because theres politics, religion, goverment , And finaly us the people, society and that is alot of different organizations and religions and people to have agree on the cloning and the guidelines ect. It will not happen in our lifetime or our childrens if EVER. So the point in arguing about it, Who approves/who dosen't, Who is being presumptuous/or not, Or even who talks directlyto God/or not, is really a waste of time. That is unless one just likes to argue or debate or discuss here on this forum, Which I rather like debating , discussing and even arguing sometimes so I will continue to make my post. We discuss alot of things here on this paticular forum and I can't name one thing that is really going to happen anytime soon or anything that provides us wth absolute proof but we continue to discuss these things day in day out. I enjoy the members here at UM, I consider them friends I talk to almost everyday and I enjoy the topics. I am rather "put off" at being called presumptouos for stating my opinion here on a forum, And being insulted because you think I have a" direct line to God". People tend to judge anyone who says they have a direct link to God as insane(No offense Omnaka Although Fluffybunny here just insulted you) Just as you say," taken with a grain of salt". I think that is between them and God and NONE of our business. Who are we to say God doesn't talk to some? What makes you think your opinion is more valid or correct than mine ? Because you ride in an ambulance, Please.

So you're saying that just because there was no sexual contact, God wouldn't want these clones to exist??

There is a quote from the actual Bible:

"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you."

I know being formed in a wombless egg isn't really being formed in the womb, but it is a baby embryo nonetheless. I'm pretty sure that God values all life, and that if he knew us before he formed us, he'd be sure where the baby is going--whether in a premade egg or not. The truth is that it was made by two children of God and is still a child of God. It just wasn't made through sexual contact.

If you are rferring to me I never said anything What so ever about sex And don't intend to. Always a pleasure

This is what I was referring to sandee, not you. sorry for the confusion.

Yeah I knew I knew I was innocent the whole time Just playing, Thanks for the apology, . Always a pleasure


Just a thought here, Apologys are rare today, When someone is wronged they expect apologies quickly. When the same one does wrong the apologies are slow coming and often times non-exsistent. My point being I think it shows great character for one to be quick with their apologies, Thank you Fluffybunny that was nice of you to say sorry.

You didnt deserve to be upset by me, it was not my intention...I wasnt specific enough. I should have said that I was speaking of the son of god, which would have ruled you right out of the equation I guess

Freudian?

I think we are all the children of heaven. And we will all meet our progenitor, in time.

I just read the article about cloning on the main page, it said the 2005 cloned embryo died after a few days. The current scientist appears to be saying he doesn't want to bring a child into being, he just wants stem cells. But other scientists have devised a way to turn any adult cell into a stem cell, so what's the point?

There is one problem I can forsee with the idea of cloning. Epigenitic markers are imprinted onto our cell's dna as our lives progress, and female and male bodies imprint these markers differently. It is known that both sexes of imprinting are required for a balanced offspring. For example, on one gene responsible for long-bone growth, 2 copies of a female-imprinted version can result in dwarfism, while 2 copies of the male-imprinted version causes extreme height. The closest natural thing to a clone, so far, is a teratoma, which is not a viable embryo at all.

The problem is that adult stem cells are pluripotent and not totipotent like embryonic stem cells. Basically, to wreak the benefits of stem cells, they need to be totipotent because the pluripotent stem cells can't, in theory, cure the most serious of ailments like totipotent ones can.

One of those typo days...

I am going to win this debate right now.

Let's assume then that God is real...

If God created man in his image and gave us all the tools and materials necessary to create clones etc then he does in fact approve. If he didn't he would have made man incapable of creating life, since however he created us to be like him and gave us everything we need to succeed on our own then logically we are inclined ourselves to become more God like. God created man with the power to create life and if he really disapproved then we would not have this ability.

Debate won

God gave man the power of creation and if he did not expect us to use it he would not have given it to us bottom line.

What's the point of this thread? Cloning has already succeeded. It's been done.

One would think that would be front page news, and Or in The journal of medicin, Please do post a link or something where a Human clone has been created.

Thanks.

Love Omnaka

If you win, Where is the clone?

Love Omnaka

You may approve of human cloning, but your argument's logic is not very solid. You could substitute any technology or activity in that paragraph, in place of cloning, and reach the conclusion that god approves. Making and using thermonuclear weapons, dumping toxic waste in poor countries, the list goes on and on.

Also, cloning is not creating life, it is manipulating (or perhaps warping) life.

The non-anthromorphic god I saw gave us souls and enhanced intelligence. We have used our intelligence to devise the rest, perhaps we should use our souls to feel which sciences should have value.

What are you talking about? Cloning an animal is the exact same thing as cloning a human. There have been human embryo cloning experiments done already, they're just not allowed to come full term because of ethical considerations. I mean, this was just the other day:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/18/us/18embryos.html?ref=us

animal clones and testube babies and Stemcell research and Cloning Parts, is not making a Human clone, or an eating breathing thinking Human.

There is no clone to look at, or name, is there?

Love Omnaka

No, but there quite simply could be. We just don't do because of people's current aversion to it. If all we wanted to do is make a cloned human from a laboratory inseminated egg it's quite simple. People have an inexplicable problem with that though. Instead we have to jump through hoops to make the process start without the simple sperm-egg union which is why it's currently so difficult. In the end it will be worth it, because we need to able to clone from adult cells, but just making a twin or multiple twins is not hard at all in a lab. The whole thing is, whose going to carry it term and other such considerations? An embryo can only last so long outside the uterus with our current technology.

In a lab...

The very first human embryos have been cloned.

We have also cloned hybrids as well.

Fact is it has been proven that mammals can be cloned and humanity is no exception to the rule.

You base you arguments on faith and faith alone where as I base mine on the evidence and the evidence does not support your claim.

Humans have been cloned, but due to legal reasons they aren't allowed to grow beyond the early embryonic stage, people insist that it's unethical.

Again, nonsense standing in the way of development.

Sorry debate not won yet, What about the nuecular weapons God gave us the ability to make, They would kill everything on the planet do you really think just because we have the ability we should? Always a pleasure

If God knew everything that would happen from the moment of our creation, it doesn't matter what we do, it's all predestined.

I may be misreading the messages, but I find that those in favor of cloning, in this thread, have a curiously double attitude.

First they say that clones are not souless, that clones should be considered people just like any normally conceived child.

But then they say, look at all the medical advancement we can have from cloned embryoes, like endless supplies of stem cells, and organ donations, and test subjects for genetic experiments. But if clones have souls and are people- then all of these medical advancements would be in the same morally-doubtful and objected-to catagory as if you did these medical experiments on normally-conceived embryoes fetuses & babies.

It looks like the proponents of cloning want to have things both ways. Shouldn't they have to pick one philosophical stance?

Actually what she meant was, because we can does not mean we should. First of all, I don't believe that god will allow us to kill. And killing other people, I believe, are part of your no no list. So nuclear weapons are frowned upon by god, but god wishes us to make our own choice. If there is a god anyway. Its more or less the ethical ideas that make people adverse towards cloning.

I don't think we have to worry about playing God because we are SO under-qualified. Creating a clone isn't the same as creating life. The force that animates the body is still totally beyond our understanding.

Sometimes I think I'd like to be cloned. When I was a kid I had a medical condition that drastically affected my childhood. Today the condition is easily treatable. It would be nice to think that the combo of DNA that my parents gave me could have a chance to be unimpeded and unlimited by the problem. Is this weird? Yup. Is it ego-centric? Maybe. I think it's mostly a result of loving my parents.


.

Well said sister.

I tried to say this in another post, but you said it so much better.

I do believe it is the Moral debate Raging in the scientific comunity Right now, and is a perfect reason not to do it. I think we should concentrate on Feeding clothing Housing and loving those who God Puts spirits in to, Instead of making experiments out of Human life. The picture ofr the baby wating to die with the vulture looking To eat him, is nothing compared to the picture Of a baby with the scientist looking Over him,waiting to take a body part, or run another experiment on him, untill he dies.

Hopefully the scientist will see the situation as Father does,If not, they will learnit the Hard way. I still have no doubt that it will never suceed. Father said he will not put A spirit in one of these Clones.

PRO CLONERS PLEASE RESPOND TO THIS.
This is a thinly veiled acusation Questioning your Morals and beliefs To be no better than the scientist who performs these atrocities against the ones you feel should have equal rights among men.

LOve Omnaka

Three Pages , surely there is one who can respond.

Love Omnaka

It seems to me that the people that are supporting the Cloning issue have done so in the wrong way.

You are debating that god really does put a soul in to a clone just as he would in a normal person when I know that at least several of you do not beieve that god even puts a soul into a normal person.

By stooping into a faith based argument you have made your argument vulnerable to the sort of faithbased illogical arguments that have been shown in this thread.

Well what I am saying is that quite simply I concede that there is no soul in a clone. For the same reason that there is no soul in anyone else. And whats more that is irrelevant.

We do have the technology as has been proven to clone functioning mammals, and humans are not really all that more complicated then any other mammal. Different yes, but then all animals are different.

As to the moral argument Omnaka has raised above, I do not see why the morality of the situation is at issue. The embryos before birth are for all intents and purposes unaware. The fact is that science in its highest form should not be guided by morals at all.

if u talk to god so much tell him to grant me a few favors lik super powers wealth good looks and smartness oh and then tell him to tell u stuff about me and then tell me some stuff lik my last name family age city school etc

I don't tell God anything, I ask For Favors and answers to My questions, I suggest you do the same, With respect, and you may get an answer, Telling God To do you Favors , I don't think will work.

Again I do not Care if you believe me, and I do not care what School you go to Or your real name, I do not have to prove anything to anyone, and neither does God, even if you think God ows it to you. Ha Ha.









Are you a pro cloner/ Can You answer the above charge?

Love Omnaka

No one will be running experiments on live clones. No one will be cutting arms off or taking organs from clones that have been already 'born'. These will be grown seperately. You are grossly over-exaggerating what will be done with cloning in the scientific community.

I can say the same to you in regards to the baby overlooking the scientist. How about the millions of kids who are in need of organ transplants, who suffer from debilitating illnesses, who are dieing ever year, who could be saved through this type of research. These, unlike the embryos, are living. By preventing this kind of research, you are in fact killing these kids.

This topic is about Creating a Human clone, not Stem cell research, Or growing Parts. a Whole human, And if one is created Do you really thing it will not be experinented On?

Follow the path of what has been done in the name of science and you will see it is not such a gross exaduration.

Love Omnaka

That is what cloning will be used for. We're not going to clone a human, keep it in a cage for twenty years then harvest it's organs when we feel like it. You create a clone and extract stem cells from it.

You seriously have no idea what the scientific community is about or how it goes about research. There are tremendous walls in the scope of ethics that must be observed.

No, full humans will not be experimented on, at least as long there isn't a totalitarian government that rules the world within the next few years.

Full humans wouldn't be used or experimented on.

Nor will they be.

Yea this thread is a moot point. I have not seen a picture Of a Cloned Human, A living Cloned human would prove me wrong.

Good luck with that.

Love Omnaka

Would thes be the same Govemnt which let scientists infect Negros with the Venerial desease in the 50s, and the same who Gave radio active Milk to children with Down syndrome, Just to see the effects.

Yes this was all done in the name of Science, Imagine Infecting someone with Ghonoreah just to watch it's progression all the way to Death and giving them placebos to help the ailment.

Yes it is true , You do not know what has been done or refuse to open your eyes, Freedom of information act Has more to say than the pathetic examples I just posted.

Love Omnaka

You're not going to see one for a long time because it's illegal. Not because it's not possible.

Like I said. It happened, it's real. It had to be destroyed because it was illegal.

What if it does not want to give it's stem cells away?

Would The clone be patented, and therby Owned by its creator, and anything goes?

Kind of Like what Monsanto is doing with its genetic crops which if It crosses with a natural The natural does not produce seeds Then you will have to buy your seed from Monsanto , Because they own the rights to your Food ?

This is a Disgusting Buisness, in My eyes.

Check out what has gone on behind Closed Lab doors in the freedom of information act, with the Govmt Aproval, and you will see How ethical they are.

Love Omnaka