You don't have to have a full human to obtain stem cells. This obviously shows your poor understanding of science which means your whole argument is highly suspect.
This business you are speaking of doesn't even exist yet, manufacturing humans. Theres a huge difference between food and humans

Stem cells can be extracted from a blastocyst, a collection of cells.

Full humans wouldn't be used or experimented on.
*Full* humans wouldn't be used or experimented on.

Emphasis on the word "Full". One of the articles someone linked to, mentioned that the chinese made a human-rabbit hybrid embryo. What is that, creation of a Rabbit-Boy? And in doing so, it is no longer a full human, is it? Oh, no human rights for you, child, this is the future of Dr Moreau, where lots of underpeople are the new slaves. And what happens when someone invents a genetic cure for cystic fibrosis, then they announce a few generations later that all descendents are no longer full humans because they now have a gene from some other lifeform?

You have to remember He is speaking For the whole scientific comunity , I may not Have The science Backround He does , But I don't need It to see the atrocities which have been performed on Humans In the name Of Science.

I can Guarantee That most of the sick inventions of Science Have been used On Humans and animals, Just to see what the effects are.

This is bad science Imo.

Dr meurau was a Good analogy, Frankenstien is another.

Love Omnaka

Love Omnaka

By full humans, we are not referring to a living being, but the embryo.
The embryo is not yet a living human, it should therefor not be subject to controversy surrounding such things as stem cell research.

You are seriously over reacting to issues surrounding cloning. Theres a reason why laws are in place for this, and why such crazy notions some people are bringing up will never happen.

But, if you wish, you can continue to protect that which is not a living being, while refusing to save those who are already struggling to survive with serious illnesses.

The spirit is Inserted at conception in a regular Making of a Baby, Equalling Life, Your speculation that an embrio is not Life is another sick twist on science, Making it Ok to do what ever one wants in the name ofscience.

At what stage do you think Life Begins?

Some might say Puberty.

Others might say when You stick it with a needle and it cries.

Love Omnaka

Calling science sick? I would rather call your so-called beliefs sick for refusing to give medical care to those in need of it.
Its more than sick when you reject the notion of possibly saving millions of lives, because you 'believe' that a spirit inhabits an embryo.

You continually say that you love others, but this couldn't be further from the truth when you refuse to save living people's lives.

An embryo is not a living human
End of story

Laypeople have no business telling scientists what to research. Politicians also have no business messing with what should be studied when they have no idea what an embryo is or what cloning entails.
What do you think Scientific Ethics Committees are for? You obviously have never heard of them.

I have No problem With Kids getting Medical atention they need, If it is niot at the expence and Or Pain Of another Unwilling subject, which if you had it your way the subject would be owned In Whole or Part by it's creator, and then anything Goes,

Scientific ethecs comittee, Would this be Like the watchdogs Bush has watching over the environment, The same ones who polute it.

Yes lets get a bunch of scientists to Rein in their contemporaries, Fat chance, Is this Scientific watch dog comittee A new thing Or was it around when they were feeding Babies Radio active Milk, and infecting Black people with Ghonoreah, Just to see the results ?

When was this ethicks comittee formed. and By who?

Omnaka

Ps as much as you would like it to be the end Of story On when an Life begins, it is not the end Of story, Thats why the debate Of abortion continues Today. At what point does the scientific Comunity think Life begins?

First breath maybe?

Ethics plays a huge role in what you can do research wise. I know because I am involved in it on a daily basis. The reason I am responding to this topic is because I know what research entails, and everyone is totally blowing this out of the water.

This is a serious topic for me, because its people who understand nothing about scientific research, that is keeping it back.

In fact, its people like Bush, who you claim to be similar to the ethics committees, who is keeping research back.

There are literally tons of organizations who serve as whistle blowers in research.

Whistle blowing on stem cell research is totally unfounded, and is mainly done by politicians and religious people. You and I are in agreement that experiments should not be done on living clones for example, but embryos, for example, are not yet living humans. Stem cell research on the embryonic level is totally acceptable by most scientists in most countries.

Scientific Ethics has made great leaps and bounds within the last few decades. Theres a reason why no such moral-breaking experiments have been done in the recent past. Psychological experiments done on children are some of the reasons why ethics committees came into existance.

At what point do you and your Coleagues Deem Life is in Existance?

When it gets its first breath of Air?

LOve Omnaka

I personally don't specialize in research with stem cells or embryology. I specialize in cancer research.

However, for the sake of this topic lets put this into perspective. Using real world issues that will arise with potential clones

Embryonic stem cells are taken from embryos that are about 5 days old after fertilization.
Its not until the 6th week that brain activity can be observed.
Organogensis occurs during the 7th week and after the 8th week, the fetal stage begins.

Taking all this into account, an embryo is not human life in terms of stem cell research because it has to be conscious. An embryo 5 days after fertilization doesn't even have major organs or brain activity.

And do you believe Consciousness can exist outside Of A Human Brain?

How would You feel If You found Out That It can rxist outside a Brain, and Or Inside an Egg, for example, That the thing you stick needles in to can actually feel , That the aborted Baby can actually Feel everything that has happened to it,Ans said about it Why is it Most only think something can feel if it creis out.

THis is what is missing In scienceImo, Once they learn about spirit and consciousness, It wil be a whole nother ball Game, with the emphisis on Life Love and spirit, You think this can not happen But once it is , And It will be found out, Ethics will be on the individual, and what he does and thinks, Now thinking That an embrio has no consciousness, gives scientists free reign to Do anything To a living Entity.

Would you feel Bad if you found this out?


Are You Positive Consciousness can not Live In an embrio?

Do you believe in Reincarnation?

If science Is going to err I think It should err Without Hurting another life form.

Yes spirit has feelings.

Love Omnaka

Spirit is pure Consciousness, And does not need a brain to Think and or Feel

Are you hallucinating Omnaka?

An embryo is life, but so are the cells that made it. Where do you draw the line? Birth is a nice clean line as far as I'm concerned.

Personally, I think it's fairly bloody obvious that as a creature grows in the womb it grows in consciousness... But since a 3 year old child has the same mental ability as a Macaw, I'm not too worried about something that hasn't even been born yet.

It's not got a lot to do with "can it feel it" to me. You poor salt on a slug and it can CLEARLY feel it, but it's not weeping seeing it's "life flash before it's eyes" or considering death. It can't do that. It has no idea what the hell is going on. It hurts, but the pain animals with higher cognitive ability feel is completely different. When we are in pain we don't just react to the pain, we react emotionally based on other reasoning. Pain is no more than a survival mechanism. It's your body going "if you keep doing whatever it is you're doing you're going to die and not pass on your genes!"

When any being is first conceived, it is no more "aware" of the world around it than the cells that made it.


This is a conclusion you have reached without any evidence, at all. Not just lack of scientific proof, but a lack of religious texts to support it too.

We can prove that the embryo doesn't have any brain activity that we can measure, yet. Like Cimber explained. So you have no reason to think that it would have a consciousness, if tests show it does not. They only thing we KNOW as being consciousness is brain activity. Until we know otherwise, you're wrong.

Anyway, clones not having souls? Sounds like a very Islamic thing to say to me. http://discuss.riseforislam.com/index.php?showtopic=429

[color="#9ACD32"]"
Spirit is pure consciousness, and enters the womb at conception, What you said is pure speculation, what I said I have learned frm Heavenly Father and Going to the Spirit world, seeing where aborted Baby spirits dwell, and felt their Pain, all this I have witnessed. call me anything you want, after this life you will know what I say is true.

I feel for you and any other s who have had a hand in this and justified it with science or what you percieve.

You judge your own spirit After this life, God won't do it, your spirit will be self acountable, with no body to lie for or justify for.

I feel for you bro. You Reep what you sow.

Love Omnaka

[quote name='Neognosis' date='Jan 11 2008, 12:37 PM' post='2090270']
So is it your postition then, that breaking the 10 commandments is not wrong? Is it wrong to kill and rape? If your assertion is that man can do no wring because God knwos we are doing it and asw it before our creation, does that mean war is good?



I don't believe god wrote the ten commandments ! Man wrote them as a social tool. The ten comandments are what I would call common sense. Not devine intervention

The fact that we can clone PROVES that there is no soul!

While it's interesting that you think such things, I find it dangerous that you think that cloned people are 'evil' and 'doomed to failure'.

I'm sure that there are cloned people out there on Earth today - no real evidence, but many claims and it's quite easy to do for our most advanced scientists.

You need to remember that clones are people too - they just have to same genetic code as their donor. They are born just like you and I, however they are a new individual. They just have to same genetic make up and they look the same as their donor did when they were a baby. They will be raised differently, in a different time and will have different experiences.

Cloned people will have morals, will laugh and will cry. There is nothing special about a clone - they are a normal person like you and I.

So when cloning becomes the norm (say a baby dies in an accident and it's parents want to let the genetic code have another go at life) I hope that you won't think of them as being doomed.

The fact that we can clone people shows that there is no soul. Two of the same people having the same genetic code shows that they don't have the same 'soul'. If they are the same person, then where is the soul?

-Josh

I have yet to meet or see a cloned person. Maybe cause there aren't any.

There is one spirit per body. Father (God) wont put one in a clone.

Man is not Enlightened enough to make a Spirit to run a body.

This is a mute conversation, cause It won't ever get out of the lab, Then you can blame scientists for how they treat their creation, not me Or God. we have nothing to do with it.and won't have anything to do with it.

If science treats it anything like they do other animals and research, You can blame them .

But again, Man knows nothing about Creating spirit , which makes a mans Body tick, Mute point, aint gonna happen


God wont put a spirit in a clone.

Enjoy your argument, I'm done with this one, I have stated in many posts what Father(God) has told me, If you don't believe me Thats fine also.

Love Omnaka

if i remember correctly.

most cells self clone [Mitosis]
now some cells like the zygotes split in half [Meiosis]

these latter cells [eggs and sperm] are ment to blend with another half {fertilise} to create a source cell which will become an embryo

now i beleive in some odd cases in nature A-sexual reproduction uses a cloned cell to form an embryo.

if there is any animal that self clones [A-sexual] im sure that its child has a soul. remember mankind is an animal so if you cloned him his clone would have a soul.

remember pride is for fools and truth is for men.

As Iv'e said, What I shared with you is what The Father of This Universe has shared with Me.

I did not tell you Father would not put a Spirit in a Human Clone as a Source of pride.

I was Just sharing What Father told me.

If your truth says diferent than Father (God) Then thats your truth.

My truth is as Fathers, No spirit will be put in a Human clone.

Iam a Spirit First, An eternal mspirit just like My Father, Iam a man second, and only for a Short while.
This is the truth.

My original post did not refer to animals reproducing in nature. and if an animal reproduces by itself, it is because Father and Mother (GOD) made it that way.

Again My post is about Humans cloning Humans and spirit , which Humans Have no clue.(SPIRIT) (Some do) But scientists and science has a Long way to Go

Love Omnaka

If I remember correctly, most (if not all) organisms that reproduce truly asexually are not very complex. Bacteria are a good example. I could be wrong, but I really don't think there is anything of the complexity level of an ANIMAL that reproduces asexually.

bacteria dont count in the a-sex because it does not have an embryonic stage.

insects and reptiles are the mainstay.theres a story about a komodo somewhere

although it could explain virgin births [if the child was female].


omnaka no worries just like to debate.

i beleive even a machine can receive a soul. if i can truelly peg humanity i should be able to copy my soul.

If you can justify preventing saving lives filled experience, knowledge, thought and personalty - claiming those are equal to a fetus, then I think that you are sick.

I do not justify anything with bloody "science". I justify with moral logic.

Speculation? You hypocrite.

Where does your Moral logic end, Can You justify saving an adult over a Child born with Mental impairments, Cloning "another human" To satisfy ones own grandure (EGO) or say a lost child, Or for body parts is whats sick in My Eyes.

If you find My beliefs hipocritical, Then that's Your belief. I stand by what I say and will not Go back on it.

Maybe read the rest Of the thread.

I see nothing wrong with cloning a Body part minus the Human, as in stem sell research.

But will it stop there, I think not, and Frankenstein is right around the corner, Only thing is he wont Make it out of the lab.

Love Omnaka.

i find it sad to say.

right is simply choices that you can sleep soundly with.


as for hipocracies

in nature the weak die
yet we insist on sparing lives.
remember there is cost to everything.
and sometimes saving a life damns another.

to clone out of curiosity to learn about life. or to clone to cheapen it. this is what we must know.

1. Humans have already been cloned and you've already been told this. It had to be destroyed because it's controversial, how long it would have survived is unknown, our cloning methods haven't been perfected yet.
2. Humans are made up of chemicals. Even if a soul does exist (absolutely no evidence for one) our bodies would not depend on it.
3. I'll be sure to tell you the moment that a human clone survives to maturity (i.e. when it's allowed to).

Removed uncalled for retort. Raptor, lets not inflame the issue with personal observations.

Drawing the line is irrelevant to the discussion, of course there will always be "borderline" cases where you can't make a decision either way.

In the world of roller coaster enthusiasm, people argue over what is and is not a coaster. The definition is rather flimsy. It's generally considered that it has to be for the purpose of entertainment, run on a track, and coast up-hill at some point in the course. But there are many "roller coasters" which don't fit this description. They only coast down-hill, for example... And then what separates them from a cart on a slide?

The point is, I unfortunately do not believe all life is equal. It's a shame, but it's just not. My moral logic is emotionally and rationally fueled. If destroying one potential life could save hundreds, if not thousands, it's morally logical to do so.

human cloning was already done.

i beleive that 10 children were adopted out. only the scientists/parents know their clones. [kept private to avoid public attrocities]

god i beleive they should be around 9yrs old. i think 2 have died so far.

please this is from memory so if you can link me up with a better source. [please]

I would also like to see a link , and Find out about these Clones, what I have heard about them and the links provided so far have discounted true cloning and was actually invertro fertilization, but I would love to see what you Got.

Love Omnaka