Why is it that God had to be feared? I thought God was love and loving of all things. Why believe in God under duress? Surely under such conditions ones' love of God couldn't be sincere, and He would know that, and He would be angry, very angry.
If one truly believes in God and loves Him, then there is no need to fear him, surely?

And God supposedly says Himself that He is a "jealous God". Why be jealous? How can God be jealous of other gods that He knows don't exist? If he is jealous how can he be perfect? If the people aren't believing of Him, even after the endless counts of proof that He displays in the Bible, then either rid the Earth of such people (which failed to solve the problem the first time) or leave them alone and don't grant their misguided prayers. He gave them free will supposedly, so let them be free.
Why make them suffer just because he gave them freewill? Whats the point?

The biblical God was quite an evil and malevolent being, killing and destroying, ripping people apart, threatening and abusing and so on.

May be something into the thing about the demiurge theory of the gnostics etc.

Or, perhaps, this God was not really the true God, but Satan?

Does this mean Satan created this World and trapped our spirits in these physical bloody stumps? Well it's hard to say, though it seems possible.

Astrally speaking, we are on the lower rank of planes, and traditionally it is said to be one God governing each astral plane, up towards the realm of God himself.

I can't say if this is true or not, but I can say it seems possible from personal experiences with the spiritual and astral worlds and their inhabitants.

Cheers.

Could be a form of Stockholm Syndrome going on. just jokes

The God portrayed in the Bible certainly is a tyrant, by our standards. Meaning we judge him on how we feel when other humans act in a similar way and what makes certain behaviours conducive to us having a cohesive and peaceful society. The whole gist of Christianity as far as I can make out is to abdicate those judgemental behaviours. Only God can judge.

I personally think religious people create a rod for thier own back when they claim he is the God of love and compassion. For if he created everything he must be the God of murder, rape and evil as well.

Presumably you are referring to the phrase "Fear God" that repeats throughout the Old Testament. All I can really say to that is read the original Hebrew. Did you know that in Hebrew there are over 20 separate phrases that have been translated into English as "fear". Each of these twenty words describe a different aspect of Fear. Fear as in terror. Fear as in horror. Fear as in afraid for your life. And out of all those 20+ phrases, only one of them is ever written in the context of "Fear God". This word has connotations of reverence and awe - the kind of fear that an elite athlete might feel just before running out to contest an Olympic Final. Or the fear that a soccer/football player might feel just before running out and contesting the World Cup. This fear is healthy, and above all natural. It is not sinister, and it would be a most accurate response to come into the presence of someone/something as awesome as the creator of all that is - I certainly would feel awestruck. This being is most definitely something/someone to be awestruck towards.

Imagine for a moment that you caught your spouse in bed with another person. Would you not (among other things) be jealous? God created humanity to be in a relationship with God, and yet humanity continues to turn around and follow other gods (by "gods" I mean anything that we put at the head of our lives, not necessarily referring to spiritual entities that we would consider gods). God isn't jealous that we are following other gods. He is jealous that we are following others instead of him. The Bible is clear that these gods don't exist (read Isaiah - people bow down to idols, but the idols have no power - they are just carved pieces of wood and stone). God created us. He designed us. As the creator and designer of all that is, he is the owner of you and your life. And just like you would be jealous (among other things) at seeing your wife/husband in bed, God also is jealous. This is a right jealousy, a proper jealousy.

You are thinking of jealousy in terms of human jealousy - seeing something that does not belong to you and coveting that (being jealous of that). This is not so with God, for he owns all things, hence God has the right to be a jealous God.

I personally don't believe in free will, but even if I did, my answer that follows would be the same - God promises to do just as you suggest. One day in the future (I don't know when, nor does anyone else) it is promised that Jesus will return. And on that day, all people who don't believe will be gotten rid of. Permanently. Exactly what form this will take, I don't know for certain. I can give you my opinion, but I don't know because there are several possibilities as I see from reading the Bible.

All the best, norwood.

~ Regards, PA

The biblical God is insane, that's the only way I can understand his actions. You're safer never being born.

If there are no other Gods then why would him say anything about other Gods? He called them false idols which seems to imply that there is. OT, NT it’s part of the bible I think that’s just an excuse to get out of admitting it. If God is jealous then he is not perfect he can’t be, jealousy is never proper there is no justification for it. Jesus said that he would return in the life of the Apostles he never did.

Well what does this suggest to you





Jesus said, "Yes, I tell you, fear him"
Similar to Matt. 10:28, Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him" (Lk. 12:4,5). Jesus goes on several verses later to warn the disciples not to disown him so that they would not be disowned before the angels of God. So, no matter what would happen, even persecution to death, they were commanded to fear God more than anything man could do. Man can only kill your body, but God alone can have your eternal soul thrown into hell! Simultaneously, Jesus told them not to be afraid because they were worth more than many sparrows.

He is the one you are to dread"
God warned the great prophet Isaiah not to follow the ways of the evil people of his day (8:11). God also told him not to fear what they fear or dread it. "The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread" (8:12,13). Can we excuse this as only for Old Testament times?






http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/feargod.htm

Not at all. As I said, read Isaiah - there is a passage there (off the top of my head I can't remember the exact passage but I'll find it for you tomorrow if you like - too late in the evening now ) which states that idols are simply carved pieces of wood and stone, and yet people bow down to these idols and worship them. But even were other gods to exist, the point of God being creator still stands true.

All I can say is that I disagree completely with that sentiment. If I found my wife (I don't have a wife, but let's pretend) in bed with another man, I would most definitely be justified in feeling jealous (and angry, hurt, etc). However, the way this jealousy manifests itself may not be the best. But the sentiment is there.

What is your definition of jealousy, btw? As I mentioned in my previous post, I see it that God created us all and therefore owns each and every one of us, and when we go against God's wishes we spit in God's face, and thus God has the right to feel jealous. Perhaps our definitions of "jealous" are different (the modern definition of jealousy is different ot the ancient Hebrews in many respects).

And now you're just throwing out red herrings. This discussion is not about prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. The question asked in the opening post (by you) was about Fearing God, and about Jealousy. To answer beyond that would simply divert this thread into yet another "Christianity is false" discussion - and quite frankly, I'm sick of those discussions. But methinks that has been your point this entire time... it seems you are simply seeking to confirm what you already believe as opposed to genuinely seeking answers to the questions you have asked. I wish you the best, norwood...

~ Regards, PA

Hello, norwood.

Let me put in a word for Yahweh-Elohim. He's a god, and pretty much average for the type. In our culture, people who have a problem with their parents' religion will react against the god of that religion, so God somes in for special attention around here. But he simply isn't unusal.

Every major god I have ever heard of does some things which, if they were done by a flesh and blood human being, would result in criminal sanction or involuntary confinement for treatment of mental illness. Thinking like a god is a form of mental illness if indulged in by a human being beyond a certain point or without a certain balance.

The fictional character Hannibal Lecter, for instance, thinks like a god - not specifically God, but a god. Such thinking presents a danger to self (Odin, whom I think to be a really outstanding god, is a serial self-mutilator) and to others (indeed, read the Bible, but remember, too, that the male Olympian gods were obsessive rapists).

As to the Elohim problem, a variety of theories about that exists. I have posted elsewhere about the one which I favor, that Elohim reflects a northern, cosmopolitan Hebrew idea of God as the chief, and peculiarly national, god among many gods, while Yahweh reflects a harsher, desert viewpoint, Bill Gates with a beard.

If so, then the written Bible would be a compromise between the two national conceptions. Indeed, the lawyerly phrasing of the first two commandments (Exodus 20:2-5) is often offered as evidence for the compromise theory.

To appreciate that compromise, please note that an "idol" is not a supernatural being. It is a physical, typically man-made, object which is worshipped, perhaps in place of a supernatural being or perhaps as god in its own right. Idolatry is a specific aspect of religious practice, and is a separate matter from who the god is or gods are.

Idolatry is what is forbiden by the second commandment. And just like today's lawyers, who cannot give without saying that they give, bequeath, devise, and endow, the second commandement defines the prohibited act in detail:

4 You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
5 you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God...

As to the first commandment, it goes the other way, and says as little as possible to avoid saying nothing at all:

2 I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.
3 You shall not have other gods besides me.

It does not say that there "are" no other gods, it just says that you "have" just this one, and that because you owe Me.

Taking the two commandments together, could a faithful Hebrew pray to Ba'al in his heart? Sure. Just don't make a statue, nor lose the appreciation that Ba'al is someone else's god, nor forget that Ba'al wasn't there for you against Pharaoh.

This is the sort of prose that highly trained people bill $500 an hour to come up with today.

Fearing someone is being afraid of them fear is a very human emotion as is jealousy.
I’d be hurt if my wife was found sleeping with someone else Jealous? No more hurt & betrayed.
The Bible makes it clear that God is not like humans in that He never commits sins, but is absolutely holy. However, English translations of the Hebrew scriptures say that God is jealous. Both the Old Testament2 and New Testament say that jealousy is a bad thing. In fact, jealousy is listed as one of the sins that will land a person in hell. So, if God is jealous and jealousy is a sin, then God must be the divine hypocrite. Just because some carvred out some wooded idiols does not mean that was the only instance he was talking about. Baal is a Pagan God he told them not to worship him why else give a name to a God if he is not real?

No, he told them not make a statue of Ba'al in the form of a natural thing and not to make Ba'al the national god of the Hebrews.

In what would become the northern, "Israeli," sensibility, Ba'al is a perfectly fine god, a god of the neighbors. The southern, "Judean," view is that Ba'al is not a god, because there was only one vacancy, and it is now taken. The Hebrew Bible, one text agreed upon by both parties, splits the difference.


Think like a god, norwood. Divine hypocrisy is an oxymoron, a self-contradicting phrase. Rank hath its privileges, and all the gods expect groundlings to know their place.

Jealousy got you stumped? God said killing was a bad thing, too. He kills whenever he pleases. And in later books, he has his way with Mary, fornication if you or I did it, and arranges the elaborate torture and murder of the boy, his son, born of that union. No sense wondering what that would be if we did it, because it would not even occur to us to do such a thing.

And it's all good, norwood, because to a god, good is, by definition, whatever the god wants.

So what you say is that in your personal belief we have no free will = god know what we will do from the second he created us.
And he will then punish the ones who did not believe in him. permanently.
But he actually made sure people like me didn't believe in him from the start?

Sorry I do not buy into that idea why give a name to an idol? Why not just call him it a false idol & be done with it? Baal was a God of thunder & lighting he was also Baal was the sun god of the Canaanites and Phoenicians, whose worship spread to the ancient Jews. In the Bible, Baal is also known as Beelzebub. IF you want to worship a God that claims to be perfect & tells his people not to do something that he does on a daily basis that’s your call. No, jealously does not have me stumped not at all it’s a stupid human emotion which the Christian God seems to be guilty of.

I guess the idea here is that God owns you, he created you, if he wanted to create you just for the sole purpose of punishing you for an eternity he has every right to do so.

In regards to what eight bits was saying, since rationality is a concept created by God, his rank allows him to work outside of it.

(Hi, GetBornAgain, yes, that's it, nicely put.)


Please allow me to clarify that I am not advocating the worship of any god.

But, IF you want to worship a god, then you will most likely worship a god who does things on a daily basis that would be offenses if done by people. There are lots of gods like that.


Because there was no need. The Hebrews did not make idols of their God. So, a blanket ban on all idolatry like the Second Commandment accomplishes the purpose, without intruding upon Israeli sensibilities about the legitimacy of other gods besides God.

Ba'al was just my specific example. Israelis were aware of many gods, each of whom would raise the same questions as Ba'al, but all of whom would be "somebody else's" gods.

Agreed, It's not true love if it is bought Paid for , solicited Or feared. That would make God's love conditional, which it is not.

It would also make God a dictater Which God is not, Freewill and Love Go hand in hand, If some do not want Gods unconditional love, They do not have to have it, Plain and simple, God forces it on no one, and after this world comes to a close, there are Infinate Places with no love , and conditional love a spirit may go, to continue experiencing their eternal spirit, Then after that world comes to a close if they aren't sich of No love they can continue in the dark, and on and on.

Love is light, and is forced on no one.. Most will figure this out after this life. and with pure consciousness, be able to make an experienced decision on what they truly want.

Love Omnaka

Yahweh said he was a Jealous God because when the Bible was written Yahweh was just one of at least 70 Bene Elohim (Sons of God) under the high God El, one assigned to each majore tribe of humans. Yahweh got the Hebrews, Baal got the Cannanites, and way over in America, Quetzalcoatl seems to have gotten the Aztecs. Yahweh and the others are also a creature we would call a 'dragon' today, and described with wings, fiery breath, demanded calves lambs and babies, and coveted human treasure..... or at least this is what the Bible says.

Jesus even says this is NOT his Father, but a 'murderer from the beginning'. We can presume then the Father of Jesus was also the master of Yahweh the dragon. His name is El, and this is the God Jesus called to from the cross, and he may indeed be the loving God described by Jesus. But the Old testament is the story of Yahweh the jealous and angry dragon, not the story of El, although it begins with El's creation.

other gods do exists!
In the beginning Elohims created the heaven and the earth. The Hebrew word Elohims is (GODS).
The bible talk's alot about them!
Look at the Creation of Man in the Bible..
And God said,let us make man in our image,after our likeness.
Who was he talking too...and there is no Trinity..that word is not in the bible.
and he was not talking to the angle's..YAHOVAH was talking 2 the Extraterrestrial beings or the other gods.
Look what the serpent tell's Eve.
And the serpent said unto the woman Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
the only one's that know good and evil are the gods ok now look at this.
And the Lord God said,Behold.the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.
who was god talking to right there? the only ones too know good and evil are the gods.
He was talking to the other beings(elohims).
The gods are real and all in the bible.

Sorry I couldn't reply earlier, but it was late and I was too tired to look into it. Now I've had a chance to look and here's what I have discovered. There are two main words that are used for "fear". One is phobos, the other is phobeo.

phobos is where we get our current English term "phobia", and refers to fear in the sense of being scared. It has no meaning beyond terror and dread. phobeo on the other hand is a derivative of phobos. This term carriers undertones of..... yep, you guessed it - reverence and awe. However, you are right that most times, this word is indeed translated as "Fear", and it does include the concept of being afraid. The overtones of this word though include reverence, whereas phobos does not. It is this word, phobeo, that has been used in reference to fearing God in the passages you cited in your post. But if the writers had intended to convey fear in the sense of being mortally afraid, they would have used phobos.

However, to support your argument a little, the context of Matthew 10:28 does seem to imply fear in the sense of dread - at least until you look further at the Greek term used that is translated as "hell". The term used is gehenna, and was a depiction of a very real place, a valley near Jerusalem. Forget your preconceptions about fire and brimstone and torture and the passage takes on a somewhat different and less judgemental tone.

Add to all of this the continuous references to God in terms of Love (Matt 22:37, 1 John 4:8 as two examples among many), and I see it being very clear that God is not to be feared in the sense that we should tremble in terror, but that we should revere God in awe and wonder.

As for your Isaiah reference, if you read the verse you will note that it never actually says you should fear and dread God, it only states "Let him be your fear and let him be your dread". It is a contrast between the gods of the other nations and the God of Israel, who unlike the other gods, is real. The emphasis is fully on the idiocy of fearing something that does not exist. Whether it be an actual command is ambiguous - it may or may not be saying we should fear and dread God. And in context with the rest of the Bible, I would surmise that it should not be taken as such, because it would be inconsistent with everything else we know about God.

All the best, fullywired.

~ Regards, PA

Could you please refer me to the place where it says that jealousy will land a person in hell? I'd like to get a closer look at that. Wrong jealousy will land a person in hell no more or less than any other sin.

I do agree that the Bible condemns wrong jealousy (unwarranted jealousy), and it condemns some of the actions which arise out of jealousy, but jealousy itself?????? As I said in my last post, when God is the creator and owner of all that is, and his creation continuously move against the wishes of said creator, God has the right to claim jealousy. Whereas if I were jealous of someone else because they had money and I didn't, that would be a wrong jealousy, because it is coveting what does not belong to me, seeking after what I do not own. But that cannot be said for God, because he owns all.

As for idols, if you are arguing that the Bible says there are other gods, then you simply have not read enough of the Bible. Every single time a person claims to receive power from a source other than the Hebrew God, they have been left wanting. They have no power, only God has power, because there is only one God. If God says the following statements:

~ "There is only one God - me"
~ "Have no other gods before me"
~ "People who bow down to idols are only bowing down to carved pieces of wood"

The most logical answer is that there is only one God, and that any other gods being referenced are simply not real. If you want to argue that there were many gods, then you would have to deny parts of the Bible, and that's a self-defeating argument because once you deny one part, then why not deny it all? Know what I mean.

~ Regards, PA

Actually, I never used the word "punish" nor even referred to punishment in any way. To go into it would take us too far off topic - this is not a free will debate. However, it's interesting that you refer to God in saying that he "made sure people like me didn't believe". I might have said the same thing once upon a time, too. I'm 28 years old now, and I only started believing when I was 20. Before this time, I might have asked why God made sure people like me didn't believe, either. Who knows, something like that might happen to you too. It might not, of course, but the future's not as set as you might feel it is. All the best, Condescending.

~ Regards, PA

I woulden't call it Jealousy as Much as sadness, Like Loving Your child, or creation, and finding out your child does not love you Back, This would not make a God angry, nor stop God from loving one, but it could Make God sad at the loss.

Love Omnaka

James 3:15 For jealousy and selfishness are not God’s kind of wisdom. Such things are earthly, unspiritual, and demonic.


If jealously is demonic they surely it will land you in hell? I think it’s interesting what lengths people will go to justify a jealous God. The bible is chocked full of God telling us to fear him.
You say that it’s ok to be jealous if you find your wife in bed with another women maybe so
As far as other Gods go again I ask you why use name a false God better yet why go & name a Pagan God? He was being very specific when he used that name there had to be a reason.
Sorry I still stand by the idea that jealousy is a human emotion plain & simple, your trying to justify that because you believe in him. Sorry I’m not buying it.

I'm glad you don't believe every thing you hear or read.

Love Omnaka

All,

A few thoughts on God's jealousy and the fear of God.

In regards to God's jealousy, there is a difference between being jealous of someone and being jealous for someone. When the Old and New Testaments refer to God as being a jealous God this points to God being jealous for humankind, not being jealous of anyone. Because my wife and I have pledged love for one another, there is a sense in which she rightfully belongs to me as much as I belong to her. Because of the rightfulness of that pledge I have every right to be jealous for her, and she for me. She is the subject of my jealousy. Some other competitor for her love is not the subject of my jealousy, because this (hypothetical) competitor is joined in no such pledge to her. I am not bound to acknowledge anyone else's rightful union with my wife. So she is the subject of my jealousy.

This is what God is getting at with his jealousy. Usually, this kind of language throws us for a loop because we don't distinguish between being jealous of and being jealous for someone/something. A healthy kind of jealousy (whether we're talking about God-human or human-human relationships) is first rooted in a rightful claim to relationship. So it's not like some guy laying claim to a woman with whom he has no relationship and then saying (in cave-man fashion), "YOU'RE MINE!" God's jealousy for humanity and creation is not like this. Because God created, cares for, and knows the goal for humankind and creation he has a rightful claim on us. God's jealousy for us is no more "despotic" than the jealousy parents have for their children. The most consistent biblical metaphor for God's relationship to humankind is that of a bride-groom and a bride. This over-arching metaphor characterizes the kind of jealousy that the scriptures point to: a jealous for, not a jealousy of.

As for fear of God, I think the scriptures actually do mean literal fear. However, said fear needs to be contextualized by the kind of God that is described. Sure, there are moments in the scriptures in which God is exercising severe judgment. In those times fear of God has its most plain meaning. If a people choose to wallow in evil they ought to fear a righteous God. Whether we like or dislike this portrait of the biblical God we at least understand what's being communicated here. But the kind of God that's is being feared is not only depicted as a judge. This God is far more preoccupied with faithful pursuit of humankind than he is with obliterating humankind. This is the God who exercises far more patience, love, and pursuit towards humankind than he does judgment. Only when we reduce the biblical portrait of God to the instances of judgment can we arrive at a caricature of God. God is not merely feared because he comes close to us. He is also feared because we (at times) have a dread of life without him. Here, the fear is not about this holy being drawing near; instead our fear is inspired by the thought that this loving being might withdraw.

It is wise to keep in mind the panorama of emotions elicited by the thought of/presence of the God described in the bible. Fear is only one of them. Love, awe, delight, joy, reverence, and a whole host of others are also mentioned. Perhaps looking at all of these together can better convey the kind of posture people who claim to know this God assume when they meditate on him. Also, keep in mind that this fear of God is also contextualized by situations. For instance, there are passages that command God's people to care for the poor and oppressed out of a fear of God (Deuteronomy and Proverbs have some of these I think). Why is this? Because God is a despot who makes arbitrary commands? No. Because the poor and oppressed, though maligned by many, are made in God's image and are loved by God. Here, the fear of God is inspired not only by God himself but by the glory with which he robed humankind. Here, we see that the fear of God is not merely about meditating on God and having the wits scared out of you. Instead, there is a holistic fear that actually reminds us of the splendor with which he created even those who are easily forgotten. In the scriptures, people are often commanded to do things that we are would agree are morally upright out of a fear of God.

I think that a generation that consistently and persistently confuses lust for love has a tough time understanding proper jealousy. I also think that a hyper-individualistic generation that eschews authority (especially when it comes to religion/spirituality) has an equally tough time reconciling the fear of God with many of the other emotions that God evokes in humans.

Draconic Chronic,

Greetings. I must disagree with you here. In the gospels Jesus gives every indication that the God depicted in the Old Testament is the One he calls "Father". While many may have a hard time reconciling Jesus with Yahweh it is quite obvious from reading everything that Jesus says about his Father that he thought that the God of the Old Testament and his Father were one in the same.

Also, I don't think that just because Jesus said, "El" on the cross that we can conclude that El is a different deity from Yahweh. In fact, it would make much sense that someone who felt as distant from God as Jesus did on the cross would refer to God as "El" as opposed to "Father." This merely points to the fact that Jesus--while in the throes of agony--really didn't feel like a "son" while suffering on the cross.

And is God only jealous (please check out my post on God's jealousy) and angry in the Old Testament? If we've got problems with those instances when he is, that's cool. But can we at least admit that there are instances of incredible compassion, mercy, and love?

Once again Jealousy is a human emotion A being who claims to be perfect can not be jealous.
But to each his/her own. Justify it anyway you want too.

Which translation did you use to get this from? I've gone through a dozen translations and they all say "BITTER jealousy" (or bitter envying in many translations, which amounts to the same thing, really). Yet your quote totally ignores the bitter aspect and simply says "jealousy". It refers to a very specific jealousy - the jealousy that makes one bitter through holding it. With God, there is no sense of "bitter jealousy" when it states that he is a jealous God.

Jealousy is a human emotion - every emotion we have is human. Jealousy is no more a "human emotion" than Love is a human emotion (why is Love a "godly emotion", if I may ask?). Yet when it comes to describing God, we humans must needs put it in a human context - else there is no possible way for us to understand. But I still stand by my previous statements that there can be a Right jealousy, and a wrong jealousy (and yes, probably a jealousy that falls both within a right and wrong state).

As for gods, he used names specifically because these were the names of gods followed by other nations. If I say "Krishna is a false god" that does not imply that I am endorsing that Krishna really existed. If I say "Thor is a false god" that does not imply that I am endorsing that Thor ever existed. If someone says that something is false, and another time that it does not exist, the obvious conclusion is that both are correct and that they were false because they never existed. See what I mean.

~ Paranoid Android

[
As for your Isaiah reference, if you read the verse you will note that it never actually says you should fear and dread God, it only states "Let him be your fear and let him be your dread". It is a contrast between the gods of the other nations and the God of Israel, who unlike the other gods, is real. The emphasis is fully on the idiocy of fearing something that does not exist. Whether it be an actual command is ambiguous - it may or may not be saying we should fear and dread God. And in context with the rest of the Bible, I would surmise that it should not be taken as such, because it would be inconsistent with everything else we know about God.
[/quote]






It is indeed ambiguous and I suspect most read it as fear and dread and I am not just talking about sceptics








Here, in this passage, we have the only time that phobeo is used in the bible. This one means to be in awe of. In another words, when a wife sees her husband, she is suppose to respect him, because God put him in the position of authority. This passage relates to the one in Psalms 89:7 in the sense that the church is the bride of Christ and the church is to give reverence to Him. We are to behold him in 'awe'. The body listens to the Head, this of course in the anatomical sense is where the brain is.

This seems to me to let Isaiah quote out

http://www.newtestamentchurch.org/a/medica...s/name-call.htm




fullywired

You said "gotten rid of" instead of punish, if you see that as a reward or whatever I guess your allowed to go into word games, which it could seem as you feel you didnt even referre to punishment in any way saying that.
An omnipotent god will of course know that I would not believe in him as I write this and he would have known that the second he created me and before.
Yes it was off topic I was just surprised you said what you did so I had to hear if thats realy what you felt, I am a curious person and would like to understand things that seems completely cryptic to me.

TO me it seemed obvious that it was not, it was a comparison, nothing more. But I'm glad you agree that it is ambiguous.

Only time? I just made a quick search in my Greek Bible. I found at least 95 separate instances where phobeo is used in the New Testament. I don't know who wrote that website you quoted, but they are wrong, plain and simple.

Yes, I guess I did say "gotten rid of", and I can see how that might have been interpreted as punishment. I guess I should explain myself - my personal belief is that there are three biblically supportable positions on hell. One is pain and torture, and imo this is the least supported of the possibilities. the other two possibilities revolve around whether you believe the soul is immortal or not. Many Christians feel that the soul is immortal and therefore "hell" is eternal separation from God. Some other Christians feel that the soul is not immortal, and that the gift of eternal life is indeed just that -a gift. I fall into the second of these categories. Therefore if you do not believe, when you die you will be dead and become wormfood. Many atheists believe this and take comfort in the belief that there is nothing after this life. This was my meaning when I said "gotten rid of" - in that when Jesus returns, everyone who has not been granted the gift of eternal life will simply die (or remain dead, if they have already died).

There is evidence to support both a mortal and immortal soul in the Bible, and therefore I do not begrudge any Christian who believes in an immortal soul. In a way, it was my belief on predestination that led me to believe the soul is mortal. A couple of years ago, I did actually believe in free will. And I believed that because of our choice to go against God, he will separate us from him for eternity. When I read the Bible and came to the conclusion that free will was not biblically supportable, it seemed obvious to agree with the second line of thinking because God would not separate for eternity a person whom he predestined to be that way.

Thanks for the question, Condescending. All the best,

~ Regards, PA

Norwood,

If humans are made in God's image (as the biblical material states), then it would follow that we experience things like jealousy because God does, not the other way around. As I pointed out in my last post, jealousy is not necessarily bad anymore than emotions like anger, grief, or frustration. While some emotions are reactions to less-than-ideal situations, the emotions themselves can be valid, right responses to those situations.

Also, what do you mean by "perfection"? And why would this perfection exclude jealousy? Why would this kind of perfection include love?

I think that it meant it had only been used once in the context of "awe"






The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon



Strong's Number: 5399 Browse Lexicon Original WordWord Origin fobevwfrom (5401) Transliterated WordTDNT Entry Phobeo9:189,1272 Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech fob-eh'-o Verb Definition

1. to put to flight by terrifying (to scare away)
   1. to put to flight, to flee
   2. to fear, be afraid
      1. to be struck with fear, to be seized with alarm 1b
   3. of those startled by strange sights or occurrences 1b
   4. of those struck with amazement
      1. to fear, be afraid of one
      2. to fear (i.e. hesitate) to do something (for fear of harm)
   5. to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience

King James Word Usage - Total: 93 fear 62, be afraid 23, be afraid of 5, reverence 1, miscellaneous 2 KJV Verse Count Matthew16 Mark12 Luke21 John5 Acts13 Romans3 2 Corinthians2 Galatians2 Ephesians1 Colossians1 Hebrews4 1 Peter3 1 John1 Revelation6 Total90

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/...amp;version=kjv

^I see. That makes sense, and thanks for the clarification. Perhaps in the KJV that was the only time it was translated as "fear". Not so with other translations. I found three in the ESV. And a large proportion of the rest are in the context of "Fear God", which as I have been saying since the start may have overtones of awe and reverence.

jealousy is based in fear - a perfect God would have no need of Jealousy or fear. hence the biblical idea of God can't be right.

The Christian God is deemed perfect by his followers such A God should beyond all petty human emotions, besides the states that we’re made in his image dos not mean that he has the same emotions as we do all that means his we resemble him. I know you’ll twist that somehow but that’s ok. Ever heard of that poem that tells us what love isn’t?



Love is patient; love is kind

and envies no one.

Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude;

never selfish, not quick to take offense.

There is nothing love cannot face;

there is no limit to its faith,

its hope, and endurance.

In a word, there are three things

that last forever: faith, hope, and love;

but the greatest of them all is love.
~ 1 Corinthians 13 ~


Straight out of the bible Maybe your God should pay attention to what he wanted put in it.

Norwood,

First, you still have not stated what it is about what you call "perfection" that would exclude the kind of jealousy that the biblical God is said to have. Also, when I stated that our emotions are (at times) a reflection of the fact that we are made in the image of a certain kind of God, I am drawing from the biblical text. In the scriptures, God is depicted as a jealous and compassionate, just (implying that he's a judge) and loving, angry (but only when a situation warrants it) and merciful. This runs from Old to New Testament. You could say at this point, "Well, I don't care about what the scriptures say." And while that would be well and good, you'd have a problem because you quote those same scriptures to advance your point about love! You believe that love and jealousy are mutually exclusive, and I think that this is untrue of God and untrue of human experience. You are right to state that there is some difference between God's emotions and human emotions. However, you are wrong to think that this difference is rooted in whether or not God and humankind share the same emotions. The difference is in the divine experience and expression of these emotions, not in whether or they exist for God. We can use human emotions to approximate God's emotions. In fact, this is done all the time in scripture. You may bristle at this, but I think that what you quoted above entirely makes my point! The "love poem" you quoted is actually from 1 Corinthians 13. In it Paul is doing exactly what I'm doing in reference to jealousy; he is using the human experience of love to approximate God's experience/expression of love. Again, this is normative in the Jewish and Christian scriptures. Also, the same Paul who writes of this love has no problem speaking of God's wrath toward humankind for evil in other parts of 1 Corinthians (chapters 3, 5, and 6 come to mind here).

As I pointed out in another post on this thread, the metaphors for how God relates to others routinely draws on human relationships. God's relationship to his people (Israel and the church) is spoken of as a bridegroom - bride relationship. This marital relationship is purely human, yet it is used powerfully (in most instances by God himself via prophets) to describe how God relates. The fact that Jesus views himself as God's Son is in itself a picture rooted in human father-son relations. Again, this helps us to approximate how the divine Father and the divine Son interact, and it communicates how they feel toward one another. Is the love shared between the divine Father and the divine Son far beyond anything we've ever known? Sure! But is it entirely alien to what we've known? No. It is different in degree, but it is not entirely unknown. If humans had absolutely nothing like it, how could we even comprehend what God is talking about? We could know nothing of God if this were the case.

Also, in a previous post I demonstrated how God's jealousy is entirely different from ours. You act as if jealousy is categorically impossible for a perfect being (whatever "perfect" means to you). Above, you state that we can't expect God's emotions to resemble ours. However, you seem to make an exception when it comes to the emotions that you are fine with God possessing. For instance, you and I experience and strive after love, but does that mean that God--because he is divine and perfect--can't experience and express love? If I'm lining up with your logic it would have to mean that.

No what it said was it had only been used once in the context of awe, the rest meant fear of god



fullywired

Like my friend Ripley said

jealousy is based in fear - a perfect God would have no need of Jealousy or fear. hence the biblical idea of God can't be right.


The Christian God is not compassionate if you ask me humans have more compassion then he seems to have. What warrants the way he treats women & the way he kills those who do not worship him? Any other human emotion or sentiment applied to this entity and one will always have to question the imperfection of this insecurity. I for one could not endure or survive in such a REALationship where fear, obedience and jealousy were constantly imposed or promoted.
Fearing someone is being afraid of them.
For example I used to fear my dad, I don't anymore I now despise him. Fearing something causes you to hate it.

Here’s my ideal of perfect: being entirely without fault or defect : flawless <a perfect diamond> b: satisfying all requirements : accurate c: corresponding to an ideal standard.

Your God is far from that. I doubt that your Gos idea of jealousy is different from our own the bible tells us differently.

Sorry, more fool me for not proofreading. What I meant was that perhaps in the KJV that is the only time it is translated to be "awe". My apologies for the typo. There are three in the ESV, plus many of the others are in the context of "Fear God" which carries the overtones of awe and reverence that we were discussing.

Apologies for the mix-up

Norwood,

Please demonstrate how the kind of jealousy attributed to God is based in fear. I have delineated the two kinds of jealousy (jealousy of vs. jealousy for) in my previous posts. Despite this, you continue to assume that I am operating with the jealousy of concept. Even if you disagree with the biblical portrait of jealousy, please refer to that kind of jealousy (not the other kind) when arguing against my position. Again, the God depicted in the Jewish and Christian scriptures is jealousy for humankind and creation, not jealous of anyone or anything. Also, God's jealousy comes into play only when those whom he loves (namely humans) come under threat from someone/something that is endangering them. God's jealousy, wrath, and judgment operate in this way: they are emotions that have not always been a part of God's character. They have come about because of God's reaction to evil in the world. In contrast to jealousy, love is an eternal characteristic of God. He has always been a lover, even before he created anything.

You have not dealt at all with many of the points I made previously. Most importantly, you have not dealt with the fact that while you have no problem approximating God's love by looking at human love, you bristle at the notion of approximating God's jealousy by analyzing human jealousy. Also, I still don't think you're dealing with an adequate view of what is "perfect" in reference to God. You continue to maintain that perfection excludes jealousy (and, I would assume, anger/wrath and grief). Above, you point to some characteristics of perfection. One points to the satisfaction of requirements and another points to correspondence to a standard. But I ask you here: Whose standard? By whose standard do we measure God? You're basically saying that if God doesn't embody love (or any other emotion) as you envision it, then he is deficient. But that would put you in the driver's seat as a judge over God. This begs the question: What makes your standard adequate for judging God?



As for the way women are portrayed and treated in the Old and New Testament, we've got to get something straight here. First, the Old and New Testament treatment of women far outstrip any other cultures' treatment of women in the ancient Near East (Old Testament) and in the Greco-Roman culture (New Testament). In the Old Testament women are created in God's image, just as men are (compared to other Near Eastern creation stories in which women's inequality to men is made clear from creation). Some women are prophets for God in the Old Testament (Moses' sister Miriam, Deborah, Isaiah's wife, and Huldah, along with other references to female prophets). God vindicates the honor of women (as with Hagar when Abraham used and mistreated her; with Tamar [a prostitute] when she was mistreated by men; with Bathsheba when David used her and murdered her husband; etc.). And some women are portrayed as wise persons who instruct men (Abigail instructs David; Naaman the Syrian general's maidservant instructs him; etc.). For my argument that the New Testament portrayal of women was even more liberating you can check out my posts on the "Representation" thread.

Admittedly, men are usually running the show in the Old and New Testaments. But the ancient world was patriarchal, and it is incredibly unrealistic of us to think that we could find the equivalent of Western egalitarianism in the ancient world. Also, we're doing a fine job of exploiting and demeaning women even in our time. So we should be careful of thinking that we've got the market cornered on "equality".

Also, fear and obedience need not be intrinsically bad in relationships. For example, Christians understand that they are commanded to love others as themselves. In the Old and New Testaments the mandate to love is understood as a command. In the gospels, Jesus commands love (check out chapter 15 of John's gospel and all of 1 John). In fact, Jesus didn't merely suggest things; he commanded them. Jesus speak often of obedience to commands. Would we say that obedience, even when it is in reference to commands to do things like show love, have mercy, forgive, give alms to the poor, love our enemies, etc., is bad? I already pointed out how fear of God can also work out positively given a morally upright situation (like care for the poor who are fearfully and wonderfully made in God's image).

Let me start all over here.

I believe that jealousy is strictly a human emotion a perfect God should be beyond such feelings, I do not believe that there is a difference between the two of them. I think your trying to justify that there is.
How can God have these feelings & still be considered perfect? A lot of what your saying at best your guessing your not totally sure. When you said

( God's jealousy, wrath, and judgment operate in this way: they are emotions that have not always been a part of God's character. They have come about because of God's reaction to evil in the world. In contrast to jealousy, love is an eternal characteristic of God. He has always been a lover, even before he created anything.)

Jealousy is an ugly word. It is the green-eyed monster, said Shakespeare in Othello.


There is nothing to support that just your ideas of what you think God is.
I do feel that humans have more capacity then your God does. We do not punish those we love the way he punishes his creation, we would not send our kids to hell for making a choice.
Please don't give me that OT, NT stuff thatis a copout those are still the words of your God just because it seemed that he felt bad for doing all those terrible things to women & then later on down the road seemed to some remorse does not make it ok.
BTW you are quoting a book thats solely written by man, once again fear should never be used to gain the love of another. If you feel the need to fear someone to do what is right it sounds like that maybe your parents did not to a good job in rising that person. To love someone out of fear is wrong all humans know this it seems that your God does not.

Norwood,

First, I'm glad we're stepping back here to get our bearings. I think it's good to do that in the midst of intense conversation/debate from time to time. Thanks for initiating this. Obviously, though, we're still at odds. And for both of us there's probably little surprise in this.

Again, I don't quite get how you relegate jealousy to a merely "human" sphere while simultaneously admitting that love can be both divine and human (with some overlap in characteristics between the two). There are many emotions/attributes that God and humans have in common. From some of the things you've posted I think (unless I'm reading your posts incorrectly) that you would say that both God and humans feel love, compassion, joy, and mercy. I also believe this. If these emotions can be experienced and expressed by both God and humans I see no reason why others like grief, anger, and jealousy cannot. And I do believe that there is a qualitative difference between human and divine experiences and expressions of all of these emotions. You, however, believe that there is some quality in God (namely perfection as you conceive of it) that makes it impossible for God to experience or express anger or jealousy. I think that there is a place for jealousy within God just like there's a place for it within humankind. Jealousy for the subjects of our affections is normal and right. It is not petty like jealousy of someone/something due to our wrongful claim to loyalty.

A Christian scholar and theologian named Ignatius differentiated between emotions of consolation and emotions of desolation. Emotions of consolation are rooted in creation and goodness. They are natural responses to and results of situations/contexts that are characterized by good things. New parents experience this when their children come into the world. Emotions of desolation, on the other hand, are rooted in un-creational and bad situations/contexts. We experience/express these emotions in response to things like the deaths of loved ones, betrayal, or failure. Notice that this second category of emotions is not evil or inappropriate. Sorrow, for instance, is warranted when we've lost someone precious to us. This second set of emotions is merely a response to the reality of a world that, though still marked by beauty and wonder, is also infected with sickness, death, and evil (in creation and in people). Emotions such as wrath and jealousy are not intrinsic to God; these are God's responses to a broken and sometimes inhuman world.

Love is a risky endeavor. For God and humans to be lovers involves a vulnerability that opens them up to pain. Parents that love their daughter are deeply wounded when she chooses to become addicted to heroin. They still love her, but now that love has a manifestation of jealousy because their daughter's well-being has been compromised and corrupted by drugs. Love is like light that passes through a prism of circumstances and comes out the other side in a myriad of different colors. No one would argue that we're still dealing with light on both side of the prism, but the light is changed as it passes through the prism. Love works this way. Love can break into delight, joy, eroticism, compassion, mercy, kindness, etc. Love, passing through a certain set of circumstances, can also break into anger and jealousy. In regards to the second set of emotions, I don't think is bad. If God loves everyone, then it makes sense that he should be angry when those whom he loves are treated unjustly, exploited, maligned, and/or murdered. This is not beneath God, and victims of injustice certainly don't find it beneath God. Would we deny the victims of injustice their due from God simply because we are uncomfortable with the notion that God's wrath is provoked by evil? And wouldn't God's inability to be angry over injustice preclude God from being motivated to end it? If God is never angry about the way we're treated or the way we treat others, then what's to motivate him to end the evil that humans do? So we can insulate ourselves from God's wrath over the evil we do by denying his right to respond emotionally to our evil. But, on the other hand, doesn't this mean that this same deity will remain inactive when it comes to fighting for us?



Again, I've already stated that the emotional experience of God and humans are different from one another in degree, not kind. True, we don't pass final judgment on others. This is reserved for God alone. But we do still make moral judgments. This is a difference in degree, not kind. By the by, God doesn't judge humans arbitrarily, as if worship of God is blue and worship of Baal is green, and God just happens to like blue. God judges humankind for evil that we commit. All evil that we commit is done against another; our immoral acts are not just floating out in space, confined to our own individual sectors. All immorality affects others. If God loves the entirety of creation and if all immorality compromises the integrity of the people and world God loves, then how can he refrain from enacting judgment? Only when we have an arbitrary view of evil can we reduce human immorality to consumer-oriented, market-style choices.

As for the "OT, NT stuff" I in no way claimed that God did bad stuff to women in the OT and then had to compensate for it in the NT!
Did you read what I wrote? My answer wasn't even close to this kind of response. I maintained that God didn't do anything bad to women in either the Old Testament or the New Testament! I think you are attributing someone else's argument to me. Please show me instances of this alleged misogyny from God in the Old Testament or New Testament.



First, please do not seek to cast aspersions on how my parents did/did not raise me. We can disagree here, but there's no need to sling this kind of mud. I have not stooped to such a tactic in responding to you. Resorting to this kind of personal attack detracts from any kind of argument you could make. It demeans you and makes you look petty, and (honestly) I don't think that you are really that way. So let's not do that to one another.

Second, did you yourself not quote the bible in a recent post? As I stated before, your "love poem" is from Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church. While I can see that you do not revere the Judeo-Christian scriptures as I do, you did ascribe to them some kind of authority when you ma