There have been lots of studies over the years showing that generally, the higher your IQ, the less likely you are to be religious. Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this?

http://w-uh.com/posts/031226a-religion_vs_IQ.html

http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligen...%20religion.htm

edited to add: the second link posts all of it's sources and is really interesting, the first is just easier to understand

Religious people accept circumstantial evidence and atheists require forensic evidence to back up their beliefs. I would say that vouches for the credibility of atheism being more intellectually defensible (thus attracting a different crowd) than religion.

There will always be exceptions to any stats. i know people with very high IQ's who still insist to indulge themselves in religion. I'm not sure how you explain away these people, they are obviously not stupid or gullible.

Oh, of course there are exceptions, I know some very smart Christians, Jews, etc, the studies just say that on average, the higher your IQ, the less likely you are to be religious, not that all religious people are stupid.

I can't really speak for statistics in studies, but only from experiences. I have met some very smart and very dumb Christians and non-Christians, and many in between as well. I have not noticed any real difference between the intelligence levels of Christians I meet to non-Christians I meet.

That said, the IQ is a very one-dimensional way of looking at the human intellect. If you ever study up on Psychology, and particularly the theories of Multiple Intelligences (cf, Howard Gardner), the concept of IQ becomes less and less useful in finding out a person's knowledge and understanding.

All the best,

~ Regards, PA

I don't think this is true. If you take any belief system, 90% of those who believe it can't even tell you what it is properly. The other 10% are usually very smart.

The first website makes an important statement:

Remember my missive about correlation vs. causality? We're not entitled to conclude causality from these data, but there are three possibilities:

1. Considering religion important lowers measured IQ (unlikely, since IQ is substantially genetic whereas belief is not).
2. The causality is via other factors not considered, such as socio-economic conditions, cultural history, or physical environment (definitely possible).
3. Having a higher measured IQ lowers your likelihood of considering religion important (my personal favorite, given the absence of evidence to the contrary).


I would be leaning towards number two. Consider an urban population that has lots of churches, underfunded schools, and a low high-school-to-college ratio. Also throw in gangs and understaffed faculty in these schools due to budget cuts. Most likely these individuals will score lower academically, but I assure you religion is very important in these communities. It's what binds many of these urban communities together. There are other dynamics you could include as well.

I get ya tralala - your not saying "All religious people are stupid". I worked at a Catholic Uni and didn't rock up on the first day with papyrus in hand. Of course in day to day life there is absolutely no discernable difference in the intellect of religious and nonreligious people.

exactly Pa exactly ditto...Its so superficial its a joke, one simply uses their short term memory stuffs if full of data takes a test...one of a few variety's that is supposed to show IQ and voila you have BS... a very big money maker by the way..

Gosh the public is so easily duped.....IMO

i know some genuis's that are christian,jewish.. it means nothing...i know some idiot NB's too...

What happen to Rene Descartes, Issac Newton, Blaise Pascal, Albert Einstein and Erwin Schrodinger then?

They had it nailed into them at a younger age just like the rest of them. Just because they're intelligent doesn't mean they don't fear death and the nothingness thereafter.

And as far as Atheists being smarter than Theists? I've met people from both groups and can safely say that theres an equal amount of inbred lacktards on both sides.

I never said that. They were however religious and very bright or revolutionary thinkers.

http://ken-jennings.com/blog/?p=287

I'm sure you've all heard of the jeopardy star Ken Jennings, this is a link to his blog where he was challenged by pro poker player David Schlanksy.

Ken Jennings, a mormon, was challenged to pass a polygraph test affirming that he believes in his religion. If he passes, he may take an IQ test challenge again David for fifty grand.

It's exactly what this thread is talking about though. David made a statement that no one who believes in god can be smarter than him. Thus the challenge.

Einstein were not religious, its a false claim you realy should have read up upon before claiming as fact. Its an old argument which have been debunked a ton of times, come on =/

believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings - Einstein

Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy for truth - einstein

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestation of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this sense alone, I am a deeply religious man. - einstein

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. - einstein

The best label for einstein would be either atheist or the I guess mosst fitting term "Pantheist"

Now I would like to end with one last quote that I take pride in following myself but so far pretty much havent seen anyone else do on these boards.
"learn to say, "I do not know" or "learn to say "I was wrong"

^Einstein was not atheist. He did not believe in a PERSONAL GOD, but that does not mean he did not believe in god. His reason for seeking scientific answers was to seek answers for what god is. While he was definitely not a Christian, it is a fallacy to suggest that he was an atheist. He believed in a God, so perhaps he was a Deist, or perhaps Pantheist as you suggest. But not atheist in any way. All the best,

~ PA

Yes, Einstein was indeed a Scientific Pantheist.

Whilst I am likely to generally agree with the statistics and presumption made in the OP links (due to personal experience), I am slightly hesitant for one major reason - IQ tests are just too inacurate. I have taken many tests and have scored in the range 108 to 124. That is a huge discrepancy. My personal theory is that my scores have varied wildy due to a few factors. The biggest is my appallingly poor mental arythmatic skills. If a test has a large proportion of questions that require this kind of thinking I score badly. I do pretty well at the questions involving language and vocabulary. I score better in tests that favour these types of question.

IQ tests rarely seem balanced and produce a range of results just for one individual (me) so whilst it might be a statistically provable fact that as the IQ goes up religiosity goes down, such a wide range of factors go into the catch all term of "Intelligence" that these studies can't be used to say religious people are more stupid than non-religious people. I simply believe that IQ tests are not a fair way to judge intelligence. A poorly educated person will certainly score lower than an educated one. This shows most IQ tests measure and score education level rather than intelligence. Uneducated people can be very smart people quite obviously. Tribal people with no formal education systems must have very smart individuals in their groups working out practical things for aiding survival. The same goes for those who live on city streets. Even though a test may be adapted for language and relevence to a particular group an intelligent tribesman may score poorly in a test due to the fact the concept means nothing to him. You could then show that the tribesman believes in spirits, and scored poorly on the IQ test therefore stupid people believe in spirits which is not correct at all.

I am not religious in any way at all, I am a materialist in that context but I don't feel that this is a useful way to bash the religious. There are many better ways ;-)

Einstein did not believe in God, or a god as the term is normally understood, but he would say, on many occasions, criticizing the indeterminacy of quantum theory:

God does not play dice.

By that, he meant that nature is orderly and maintains causal relationships.

He typically used "the Lord" or God, as a metaphor for nature and the natural order, but Einstein did not believe in the ordinary conception of a personal or anthropomorphic deity.

-
I am not a fan of unsupported claims I must admit. Could you point me in the direction of a valid source explaining that the reason he was a scientist was to seek answer for what god is?

Edit: I removed whole since you commented on it and I look forward to those quotes m8, sleep tight.
I cant help but point out things that are too black/white dont be annoyed about it please

^I'll get to you on that tomorrow (too tired right now). But to be sure, I did not say this was the WHOLE reason of Einstein's work. However, after re-reading my post I do see how I may have given that impression. I was simply stating that one of the reasons Einstein sought scientific answers was to understand "God" better. I'll provide quotes tomorrow. All the best, Condescending.

~ PA

I think it's rather pointless to compare the IQs of non-believers and believers. First of IQ is a very bad tool, since it's biased as to what the people creating the IQ test find important. If you haven't been taught math then you'd be stupid in some tests, but actually the only thing it says is that you haven't had access to a decent education or perhaps any education at all. Second it requires that you are free to encounter other thoughts that those prevalent in your society. If you'd never heard of atheism (or a twisted version) then you haven't really had a fair chance for a choice. The same goes the other way around.

I think it's more interesting to look at the belief ratio among those who actually deal with the areas of science where god is most often said to play a role, like biology and such and see how many believe there and take their background into consideration.

You know little about Einstein. He was religious but just more individualistic and free minded about it. It has never been debunked that he wasnt religious. It has only ever been shown that disagreed with what most conventional organized religion says and never advocated a personal God:

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

Unconventional but religious neverthless.

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

Einstein even states in the quote you posted:


It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

---Albert Einstein


Here he admits that he has religious convictions and explains that these religious conviction entail an 'unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.'

He is einstein expounding on his religious convictions once again:

My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God. (Albert Einstein,The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press)

Just because he wasnt religious in the stereo-type conventional way doesnt mean he wasnt religious.

Einstein even admits that science has its roots in the sphere of religion (Einstein's interpretation of what religion is of course)

But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. (Albert Einstein, 1941)


Also pantheism which you say is a fitting term for Einstein is a religious view:


Pantheism
1. the doctrine that God is the transcendent reality of which the material universe and human beings are only manifestations: it involves a denial of God's personality and expresses a tendency to identify God and nature.
2. any religious belief or philosophical doctrine that identifies God with the universe.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pantheism

However Einstein didnt believe in the transcendent reality part of pantheism. He puts across that he believes in a spirit that fucntions as natural laws.

He wasnt into the mystic point of view of pantheism as he himself outlines:


What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of "humility." This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism. (Albert Einstein)

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion. Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning. (Albert Einstein)


And yet he implies that he wasnt quite an atheist:

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
(Albert Einstein, responding to Rabbi Herbert Goldstein who had sent Einstein a cablegram bluntly demanding "Do you believe in God?" Quoted from Victor J. Stenger, Has Science Found God? 2001, chapter 3.)

In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214)


I believe einstein would openly admit that he was religious (though that is my subjective view) however he would outline that his view of religion and being religious is, is quite different to how we would assume.


Being not quite a conventional religious believer or conventional atheist kinda leaves us in the dark. I have wrote in another post that there is no definitive summary of what his religious views are.

now you just need to read into how einstein viewed "god" or "gods" and we will most likely agree.
And quite frankly, by quoting 5 of his most famous quotes and commenting on them doesnt make you knowledgeable on einstein or in any way knowledgeable about how much I know about him, give me a break

It is interesting to note that no one can come up with a definitive answer to what einstein believed when it comes to his religious convictions. It is the same with Gandhi and his definition of what religion is.

I have read up on what God says on God. God disbelieves in a personal God who punishes and rewards. That doesnt make one an atheist. Einstein says that the greatest experience is the mystical and yet denies mysticism. He says there is no personal God yet he says he believes in an infinitely superior spirit that cannot be completely known by the mind.

Einstein was very unconventional, philosophical, scientific and religious.

This in my view puts Einstein quite easily under the label (though no one should be labelled) of religious.

It goes to prove to me that religion is such a powerful worm that it can infect even the greatest of minds. Most ordinary folk don't stand a chance.

Is an infinitely superior spirit god? would it not be possible another spirit would be infinitely superior to the first spirit? o.o

And you are correct, one should not be labeled and yet you some posts ago put in stone he was a religious man.

This is what I mean. Einstein never states definitively what his religious convictions are. He isnt quite atheist and isnt quite believer and isnt quite mystic etc




I myself still hold to the belief that Einstein was religious. He just wasnt conventionaly religious. I say no one should be labelled but for discussions sake I believe that Einstein was religious.

Perhaps so, but Scientific Pantheism is very close (Einstein also praised Buddhism). See link here.

It does seem clear though, he was not an Atheist. I see little evidence that indicates that *smarter* people are more likely to be Atheists verses Religious people being somehow *dumber* (or vice versa).

then write "I believe the people I quote here are religious people" next time and I wont call you on it ^^
I was never a fan of black/white thinking and stating personal opinions as facts

I wrote this a few posts back:

They were however religious and very bright or revolutionary thinkers.

I implied in my other statement before this one that einstein among others were religious.

Agreed. I was only being tounge in cheek when I said what happen to Einstein, Issac Newton etc. Surveys like these prove nothing.

Physicists are often cruel and cryptic. The "god" of physicists is often a term used to describe the natural governance of the universe, not so much as a god, but more like parameters of a computer program.

Einstein was very bright, I think he often enjoyed "toying" with the rational of his contemporaries.

Edit: And it appears the generations to come after him as well.

I dare say everyone on earth is an atheist in most manners of faith. Of the hundreds of thousands of gods created by man throughout the ages, we disbelieve in 99.9% of them. Who we currently term as "atheists" simply take it one god father.

I think Being Religious means being true to one's self , Belief, and Ideal of God, this way he can not help but be true to his Fellow Man.

All religions have Some truth and good stuff in them, , I think Einstein Had to do some major soul searching after the Bomb was created, and his tendancies leaned Twards loving Man, as Ironic as that sounds, after the bomb, I think He learned Much about God, and loving Man/ Life. How would we know What good was if we had never done bad, something of that magnatude , Made Us all question Mortality, Morality and God, I think Hawkings Knows Father also, but he aint talkin.

Love Omnaka

Einstein never worked on the atomic bomb. He did however participate in a letter written to Franklin D. Roosevelt, that the likelihood of such a bomb was possible just as it was highly probable that the Germans were working on it.

If were playing to "I think game" I am inclined to think you have no idea what you are talking about.

Einstein was an agnostic, but for a public face he--for practical reasons--wished to keep his lack of faith from the public. The press and the church wanted people to believe that he was a man of faith, and they succeeded.

One must distingush the public face from the private reality. His comments on god said in public are quite different from his personal writings. One such example:

"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being."




From Skeptic vol. 5, no. 2, 1997, pp. 62ff.

The following article is copyright ©1997 by the Skeptics Society, P.O. Box 338, Altadena, CA 91001, (626) 794-3119. Permission has been granted for noncommercial electronic circulation of this article in its entirety, including this notice.
Einstein's God
Just What Did Einstein Believe About God?
Presented here for the first time are the complete texts of two letters that Einstein wrote regarding his lack of belief in a personal god.

By Michael R. Gilmore

Just over a century ago, near the beginning of his intellectual life, the young Albert Einstein became a skeptic. He states so on the first page of his Autobiographical Notes (1949, pp. 3-5): "Thus I came--despite the fact I was the son of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents--to a deep religiosity, which, however, found an abrupt ending at the age of 12. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positively fanatic [orgy of] freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived...Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this experience, a skeptical attitude... has never left me..."

We all know Albert Einstein as the most famous scientist of the 20th century, and many know him as a great humanist. Some have also viewed him as religious. Indeed, in Einstein's writings there is well-known reference to God and discussion of religion (1949, 1954). Although Einstein stated he was religious and that he believed in God, it was in his own specialized sense that he used these terms. Many are aware that Einstein was not religious in the conventional sense, but it will come as a surprise to some to learn that Einstein clearly identified himself as an atheist and as an agnostic. If one understands how Einstein used the terms religion, God, atheism, and agnosticism, it is clear that he was consistent in his beliefs.

Part of the popular picture of Einstein's God and religion comes from his well-known statements, such as: "God is cunning but He is not malicious."(Also: "God is subtle but he is not bloody-minded." Or: "God is slick, but he ain't mean." (1946)

"God does not play dice."(On many occasions.)

"I want to know how God created the world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."(Unknown date.)

It is easy to see how some got the idea that Einstein was expressing a close relationship with a personal god, but it is more accurate to say he was simply expressing his ideas and beliefs about the universe.

Einstein's "belief" in Spinoza's God is one of his most widely quoted statements. But quoted out of context, like so many of these statements, it is misleading at best. It all started when Boston's Cardinal O'Connel attacked Einstein and the General Theory of Relativity and warned the youth that the theory "cloaked the ghastly apparition of atheism" and "befogged speculation, producing universal doubt about God and His creation"(Clark, 1971, 413-414). Einstein had already experienced heavier duty attacks against his theory in the form of anti-Semitic mass meetings in Germany, and he initially ignored the Cardinal's attack. Shortly thereafter though, on April 24, 1929, Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of New York cabled Einstein to ask: "Do you believe in God?"(Sommerfeld, 1949, 103). Einstein's return message is the famous statement: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings"( 103). The Rabbi, who was intent on defending Einstein against the Cardinal, interpreted Einstein's statement in his own way when writing: "Spinoza, who is called the God-intoxicated man, and who saw God manifest in all nature, certainly could not be called an atheist. Furthermore, Einstein points to a unity. Einstein's theory if carried out to its logical conclusion would bring to mankind a scientific formula for monotheism. He does away with all thought of dualism or pluralism. There can be no room for any aspect of polytheism. This latter thought may have caused the Cardinal to speak out. Let us call a spade a spade"(Clark, 1971, 414). Both the Rabbi and the Cardinal would have done well to note Einstein's remark, of 1921, to Archbishop Davidson in a similar context about science: "It makes no difference. It is purely abstract science"(413).

The American physicist Steven Weinberg (1992), in critiquing Einstein's "Spinoza's God" statement, noted: "But what possible difference does it make to anyone if we use the word 'God' in place of 'order' or 'harmony,' except perhaps to avoid the accusation of having no God?" Weinberg certainly has a valid point, but we should also forgive Einstein for being a product of his times, for his poetic sense, and for his cosmic religious view regarding such things as the order and harmony of the universe.

But what, at bottom, was Einstein's belief? The long answer exists in Einstein's essays on religion and science as given in his Ideas and Opinions (1954), his Autobiographical Notes (1949), and other works. What about a short answer?

In the Summer of 1945, just before the bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Einstein wrote a short letter stating his position as an atheist (Figure 1). Ensign Guy H. Raner had written Einstein from mid-Pacific requesting a clarification on the beliefs of the world famous scientist (Figure 2). Four years later Raner again wrote Einstein for further clarification and asked "Some people might interpret (your letter) to mean that to a Jesuit priest, anyone not a Roman Catholic is an atheist, and that you are in fact an orthodox Jew, or a Deist, or something else. Did you mean to leave room for such an interpretation, or are you from the viewpoint of the dictionary an atheist; i.e., 'one who disbelieves in the existence of a God, or a Supreme Being'?" Einstein's response is shown in Figure 3.

Combining key elements from the first and second response from Einstein there is little doubt as to his position: "From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being."

Einstein continued to search, even to the last days of his 76 years, but his search was not for the God of Abraham or Moses. His search was for the order and harmony of the world.







Einstein on a Personal God

* Return to Top

On 22 March 1954 a self-made man sent Einstein in Princeton a long handwritten letter-four closely packed pages in English. The correspondent despaired that there were so few people like Einstein who had the courage to speak out, and he wondered if it would not be best to return the world to the animals. Saying "I presume you would like to know who I am," he went on to tell in detail how he had come from Italy to the United States at the age of nine, arriving in bitter cold weather, as a result of which his sisters died while he barely survived; how after six months of schooling he went to work at age ten; how at age seventeen he went to Evening School; and so on, so that now he had a regular job as an experimental machinist, had a spare-time business of his own, and had some patents to his credit. He declared himself an atheist. He said that real education came from reading books. He cited an article about Einstein's religious beliefs and expressed doubts as to the article's accuracy. He was irreverent about various aspects of formal religion, speaking about the millions of people who prayed to God in many languages, and remarking that God must have an enormous clerical staff to keep track of all their sins. And he ended with a long discussion of the social and political systems of Italy and the United States that it would take too long to describe here. He also enclosed a check for Einstein to give to charity.

On 24 March 1954 Einstein answered in English as follows:

I get hundreds and hundreds of letters but seldom one so interesting as yours. I believe that your opinions about our society are quite reasonable.

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

I have no possibility to bring the money you sent me to the appropriate receiver. I return it therefore in recognition of your good heart and intention. Your letter shows me also that wisdom is not a product of schooling but of the lifelong attempt to acquire it.

From p. 66

There is in the Einstein Archives a letter dated 5 August 1927 from a banker in Colorado to Einstein in Berlin. Since it begins "Several months ago I wrote you as follows," one may assume that Einstein had not yet answered. The banker remarked that most scientists and the like had given up the idea of God as a bearded, benevolent father figure surrounded by angels, although many sincere people worship and revere such a God. The question of God had arisen in the course of a discussion in a literary group, and some of the members decided to ask eminent men to send their views in a form that would be suitable for publication. He added that some twenty-four Nobel Prize winners had already responded, and he hoped that Einstein would too. On the letter, Einstein wrote the following in German. It may or may not have been sent:

I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science.

My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance-but for us, not for God.

From pp. 69-70

A Chicago Rabbi, preparing a lecture on "The Religious Implications of the Theory of Relativity," wrote to Einstein in Princeton on zo December 1939 to ask some questions on the topic. Einstein replied as follows:

I do not believe that the basic ideas of the theory of relativity can lay claim to a relationship with the religious sphere that is different from that of scientific knowledge in general. I see this connection in the fact that profound interrelationships in the objective world can Ije comprehended through simple logical concepts. To be sure, in the theory of relativity this is the case in particularly full measure.

The religious feeling engendered by experiencing the logical comprehensibility of profound interrelations is of a somewhat different sort from the feeling that one usually calls religious. It is more a feeling of awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe. It does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image-a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being. For this reason, people of our type see in morality a purely human matter, albeit the most important in the human sphere.



Einstein on the Soul
o Return to Top

From p. 39

On 17 July I953 a woman who was a licensed Baptist pastor sent Einstein in Princeton a warmly appreciative evangelical letter. Quoting several passages from the scriptures, she asked him whether he had considered the relationship of his immortal soul to its Creator, and asked whether he felt assurance of ever lasting life with God after death. It is not known whether a reply was sent, but the letter is in the Einstein Archives, and on it, in Einstein's hand writing, is the following sentence, written in English:

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.

From p. 40

In Berlin in February 1921 Einstein received from a woman in Vienna a letter imploring him to tell her if he had formed an opinion as to whether the soul exists and with it personal, individual development after death. There were other questions of a similar sort. On 5 February 1921 Einstein answered at some length. Here in part is what he said:

The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion.

Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seems to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.

http://skeptically.org/thinkersonreligion/id8.html

Thanks MomentaryLapsOfReason, That was a Good read.

Love Omnaka

He Never worked on it But it was his Theory which made it Possible, at the time,
You can be inclined to think what you will.

Love Omnaka

Enough about Einstein, we're getting off topic. Anyone interested in that actual topic, needs to read the article I post on page one. As it was a $50,000 bet over whether atheists are smarter than Christians.

Yes. Einstein was very tongue in cheek! A brilliant man. His term of God is no where near what many religious people think and corresponds to what you say about a natural governance of the universe. But he was so damn cryptic! I believe he was definately religious but just in a way that was completely unconventional. He says quite openly that science is about searching for truth and that this springs from the sphere of religion.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I WANT A DEFINITIVE EXACT NOTION OF WHAT EINSTEIN'S RELIGIOUS VIEWS ARE!!! He in no way ascribed to a personal God and he wasnt completely atheist and he wasnt completely agnostic because he seems to have made up his mind and hold firm conviction.

I would say that he was religious but not a believer.

The way he praises Buddhism and Gandhi:

"Generations to come will scarcely believe that such a one as this walked the earth in flesh and blood." ---Einstein (about Gandhi)


Myself I think it is safe to say Einstein was religious but then as soon as we declare in what way we have to be very careful with our words.


Why couldnt he be more like Erwin Schroginder???? Erwin openly admitted he was a vedantist.

This is what I mean. We may call him an agnostic??? I dont think anyone will ever truly know for certain what he was. However I dont think that ought to stop religious people from holding him as a role model because he was such a pacifist and humanitarian. All people whether religious or not should be like this in my view.

This is true. The IQ test certainly is not perfect. In addition, even if we accept the iq as properly analyzing linguistic and spatial intelligence, there are still a lot of other mental-related traits that it doesn't measure. Some people put way too much stock into the importance of IQ. However, while IQ might not mean much individually, when a group average is so blatantly variant, it says something.

I think it would be the Agnostic, simply because he does not Know, and won't say one way or the other, or build a pulpit out of doctrin from which to Judge his brother.

I think his hopes are that there is a loving God, But their Ideal of God does not match those of the main stream religions , But Then again he does not Condemn Those who simply state there is no God either, Saving face By not judging either Group, This is smart IMO.
Agnostics win! its settled, Give the money to my Favorite charity.

Love Omnaka

This is not true it depends on the field of education.

I suspect people with physics, enigneering and philosophy degrees are more likely to be religious because of the implications of quantum mechanics. I am no differant with my degree.

There is no truth to this topic

but you are delusional if you dont think religion has stunted man kinds scientific and there for intellectual growth over the course of time. Religion (more so in the past then now) does teach one to be content with "alternative theories" of our origin which ultimately has caused infinite damage to our spiritual/intellectual/social/moral growth

i agree Sede, it seems doing 'gods will has made man capable of horrific things...i see it on the decline big time...where i am anyways..

mhm. I don't think there is any real relation between Belief and IQ.

As PA said earlier I know a Few very smart religious people, A few Very Dumb Religious People, A Few Very smart Aethiests and Few Very Dumb Aethiests and the rest of both are generally in the middle. Most people are in the middle.

I think however that peoples egos makes them see people in their group as a little (or a lot) smarter then people outside their group. Similar to how I might view Non-Australian Cricket Team Supporters as a little less clever when really they just live elsewhere.

Maybe belief is more of an emotional/bio chemical difference than that of intellectual discrepancy.

(is my pseudo- intellectualism impressing anyone yet ? please don't answer !)

Well said!

I agree and disagree. I agree because I know that the ones who turn to religion are usually looking for a crutch or are at some down point in life. Hence all the testimonies in Christianity starting with "I used to..." or "I was in..." or "God saved me from". Its not usually for people who have high IQs and stay out of the trouble that comes with the "problems" Jesus has "saved" a lot of Christians from. I disagree as well because I know people (such as myself) with relatively high IQs who are also religious.