The history and motives of the Vatican, better known as "Romanism" to historians
excl.gif The Jesuit Order
excl.gif The Sovereign Military Order of Malta


In short, this is what Im here to say:

- The Jesuits have control over the Vatican.
- The British Monarchy has become subverted to the Vaticans little Protestant slave.
- The Soveriegn Military Order of Malta (SMOM) is "the most exclusive club on earth" (Stephen Birmingham, author of Real Lace: America's Irish Rich) and are completely loyal to the Vatican. Its the all-important 'missing link' that Alex Jones will never talk about.
- The top Zionists are loyal to the Vatican (!) and have been so ever since they were created and sponsored to the top by romanists. They're only allowed their place in the Romanist hierarchy becuz they serve Caesar! The Pope! So Rome can fight Islam and realise it's ancient dream of owning the Holy Land.
- High-level Freemasonry has been subverted along time ago by the Jesuit Order. In the 1770's to be exact, and they have tried to control every aspect of Freemasonry since and somewhat succeeded.
- It is the Vatican's New World Order folks. And who's in control of the Vatican? No, not Opus Dei. Its the biggest religious order in the world, the true intelligensia of the Vatican, the nefarious and cunning Society of Jesus.


Frater Peter Hans Kolvenbach is the serving Jesuit Superior since 1983
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The Black Pope meeting the Vatican's powerful servant, the Jesuit trained SMOM King Juan Carlos of Spain, "King of Jerusalem" among his titles:
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The Vatican's THE powerbase on this planet, first realise this. Think about it for a second what this institution really is. What do you know about the Vatican? A harmless silly religious institution with some Mafia connections and a big bank? Its a SYMBOL. Of an ancient power structure that has had Roman emperors come and go. That has done everything in its cunning power to subvert Protestantism. And succeeded. And you know this, you see it, you just dont think it has anything to do with the Vatican. Time to study further!
It'll all become clear.


Established history shows us how this worlds biggest, worlds oldest institution is about POWER and only power. 50 million ppl tortured to death. Ask yourself first: Was it becuz the Vatican were fanatic religious? Or becuz the Vatican were losing political power?

Obviously the latter. This institution is about despotic power, about infiltrating heretic monarchies and nations all across the globe in order to make them subordinate to the Papacy.

The Jesuits were created by a fanatic papist who wanted to fight Protestantism on behalf of Rome to help make the whole world subordinate to the Papacy, "Gods own institution".

Jesuits were a military order taking orders from the top, but also ordained "Knights of Eulogia" (Knights of the Virgin Mary)
They went about recruiting soldiers and educated them. They built colleges and educational institutions where they ordained ordinary priests who also were taking orders about what to educate etc.

They have been thrown out of 39 countries in thier history, incl. various Catholic nations cuz they were busted in trying to politically infiltrate Governments and educational systems. Using educated priests, spy-colleges and simply by being confessors for various rulers.

From around 1600-1770 they were the masters of South America, running some 50 Jesuit states, communities with all in all 300,000 native slaves. The slaves were treated well in these communes, making aritfacts that the Order would sell, then use all the riches to fight protestants in Europe.

In 1773 the Pope disbanded the Order. They had "departed from their original purpose". Ill say. They would fight Catholic monarchs from Spain of Portugal in South America with their native slave armies.

So they poisined the Pope! Thats how Jesuits work. This is the real inner face of the Order. Everything is permitted if for the good of God or the Society of Jesus. Jesuits take 3 vows to become priests, some go on to take the 4th vow. Which is well and truly conspiratorial. They swear to poisin, kill, burn, crush and whatever the heretics and liberals if so directed by the Order of any superior.

The ends justify the means. This is why they can live with themselves when using folks like Gladio insider Giorgio Hugo Balestrieri and Shriner topman Cheney to make 9/11.
If its serves God in the end, then its ok.

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Anyway, they have set up hundreds of elite educational universities where they educate (and they are really f'cking intellegent) and groom ppl.
Here the rulers of the lands are spotted and they use their SMOM to try to get them to power.
But these universities and colleges also serve and always have served as intellegensia complexes for the Jesuit Superior and his staff. These guys can find out whats going on everywhere in the world bcuz of these universities and colleges. Here is where political infiltration and other conspiracies are being formented and planned.
Here is where today we have the true power of the lands. Bcuz they have succesfully placed Papal knights as leaders everywhere they can.


Fra. Andrew Bertie is the powerful head of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, and therefore pr. defenition a Cardinal of the Vatican:
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They were suppressed by the Vatican in 1773. So they poisined the Pope. Adam Wieshaupt was a jesuit priest, remember. He "dropped out" of the order and formed Illuminati. The fact of the matter is, he was still a jesuit. They would create Illuminati to try and take over the world now, without the Vatican.
Ultimately it was not to be, but they succeeded in formenting the French Revolution where they punished the monarchs who had expelled them on the order of the pope.
In Corsica they found Napoleon. They were behind him all the way until he got wise.

"The Jesuits are a military organization, not a religious order. Their chief is a general of an army, not the mere father abbot of a monastery. And the aim of this organization is POWER. Power in its most despotic exercise. Absolute power, universal power, power to control the world by the volition of a single man...

The General of the Jesuits insists on being master, sovereign, over the sovereign. Wherever the Jesuits are admitted they will be masters, cost what it may... Every act, every crime, however atrocious, is a meritorious work, if committed for the interest of the Society of the Jesuits, or by the order of the general."
-- Napoleon in his memoirs


The trick is the banksters. These guys are NOT independant. They serve Rome. This is so important. Capitalism has always served the oldest institution on earth, the Vatican. From Constantine to the Medicis to the Rothschilds. They ALL serve Rome in the first place.

Romanism is all about infiltrating every land on earth in order to make it subordinate to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ. This is no secret folks, and it's certainly not merely something from the past.

Its the oldest power institution of earth, fact. Just becuz Alex Jones doesnt dare to mention the V-word doesnt mean that Henry Kissinger is infact a Papal knight of Malta lovingly serving this great ancient power. Rome.

Rome's Christianity is NOT Christianity. Its some weird Babylonian BAAL/ISHTAR worship or something and has been gradually converted to this since Constantine created the greatest solar diety ever, the savior of mankind, God's heavenly sun, Jesus Christ. Who was prolly just some spiritual gnostic teacher/legend in the first place.
Their treasured Mother Mary is ISHTAR. The Queen of the Heaven. They made Jesus mother into the Babylonian "Queen of Heaven"... biggrin.gif

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Its ROME folks, that has tried to infiltrate and subvert the Protestant powers (who were in the first place just another power structure breaking from the 1000 year old grip of Rome)
ROME is the infiltrator of America. FFS who else could it be!? Some super-secret Illuminati lodge? NO!

"If the liberties of the United States of America are destroyed, it will be by the subtlety of the Roman Catholic Jesuit priests, for they are the most crafty, dangerous enemies to civil and religious liberty."
- Marquis de Lafayette

Jesuits have been in control over Britain since they took charge over nutcase King George III in the 1770's.

The Gregorian University of Rome is where Moussolini was advised from by his master, Jesuit Pietro Tacchi-Venturi. Moussolini gave back the temporal power to the Vatican after it was taken in 1870. He gave the Papace 100 million dollars in gold and silver that the Jesuits used to purchase almost the entire US industrial comples after Balck Tuesday 1929.
And that Wall Street crash was made by 3 Roman Catholics, incl. Joe Kennedy, who was the shortsellers. They did only to take over US industry to buy it for SMOM's Federal Reserve Bank.

Yes, JP Morgan was the Papacy's banker. He was SMOM like his son. "The most exclusive club on earth".
What about Rothschild? You got it, this super zionist Jewish family is serving ROME'S NWO, they are also in the Roman Catholic crusader order SMOM. "Guardians of the Vatican Treasure".


Edward Cardinal Egan here is Archbishop of NY, and the MASTER over SMOM in America. THATS POWER!
And yes, the dude to his right is also SMOM and therefore subordinate to him and Rome.
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They ALL want their beloved Babylonian Papacy to rule the world. In fact they do rule the world. And all of you know the names. But NO-ONE in the alternative media scene is allowed to be funded if they speak anything of Rome.

Ever heard of "Operation Paperclips"? Sure you have. All the Nazies went to the Vatican and escaped after the war thru the "ratlines". They all got false identities, getting SMOM passports. SMOM is a sovereign state with observer status in UN btw. Half of the nazi party was SMOM.
Some went to Juan Peron's Argentina. He was SMOM of course, serving Rome.




Who financed the masonic Bolsjeviks? Yes, SMOM Rothschild thru Jacob Schilff. They were put there by the Jesuits. And Lenin readmitted the Order back into Russia in 1922 (they'd been expelled as usual)

Btw, the Order was restored after the Illuminati French Revolution Napoleon debacle in 1814 when the Order had removed the "heretic" monarchs.

"The history of the Jesuits is not eloquently written, but it is supported by unquestionable authorities, is very particular and very horrible. Their restoration is indeed a step toward darkness, cruelty, despotism, death. I do not like the apperaranc of the Jesuits. If ever there was a body of men who merited eternal damnation on earth and in hell, it is this Society of loyola."
- John Adam, 2nd president of US, May 5., 1816 to Jefferson

The Jesuits influence things, controlling the controllers. Puppet masters of puppet masters.
Jesuit Edmund Walsh created School of Foreign Services as part of Jesuit Georgetown University. Here many leaders have been groomed and afterwards brought to power by the Rome-serving SMOM networks.

Jesuit Edmund Walsh was also translating at Nuremburg making the 'right' translations. Nazi Germany was completely in bed with the Vatican, subordinate even.

"I learned much from the Order of the Jesuits. Until now, there has never been anything more grandiose than the hierarchical organization than the Catholic Church. I transferred much of this organization into my own party."
- Hitler

Indeed, they were all Roman Catholics. And you gotta understand also, any dedicated Roman Catholic regards the Papacy and its "princes", the Cardinals, as the authority of God himself. This is important to understand. If your bishop says you'll be forgiven for molesting the poor kid, then you feel good about it.
They love the Pope. There are 1.1 billion Roman Catholics today btw.

So Jesuit Edmund Walsh who helped the nazies were also the one to put Stalin in front in the communist party. He was serving Rome.

So we have Jesuits almost totally directing SMOM capitalist backed Communism, fighting SMOM controlled Nazi Germany.
Churchill? He was SMOM. Roosevelt was a puppet of CFR. And who controlled CFR? Yes, SMOM. And they STILL do. CFR is of course merely a outer ring of Cecil Rhodes old Round Table Groups, today also known as Royal Institute of International Affairs. Dominated by SMOM member yet again. Chatham House is the new name btw.

Committee of 300 is based on "council of 300" which was the elite group of rulers from the East-India Company. They are ruled by SMOM members. Suprise. Just like Pilgrim Society who set up CFR mother Chatham House. In the end, all dominated by "the most exclusive club on earth", SMOM, serving the ancient Roman dream of world domination under the Papacy.
If you wanna be anything in this Illuminati structure, you gotta be SMOM.

Committee of 300 use RIIA and CFR to nurture plans such as the Treaty of Rome which created EU of NAFTA which will create the equivalent NAU. All dominated by the SMOM networks.

SMOM ex-SS Prince Bernhard of the European Council of the Holy Roman Empire (old "Holy Roman Empire" council) was recruited in 1954 by a Jesuit SMOM called Joseph Retinger to form a club where they could influence western leaders and nurture various Committee of 300 plans, SMOM plans. They created Bilderberg.
Which is merely an OUTER ring, a somewhat open society (yeah I know...) where they talk bull infront of the western small time leaders and try to form plans to politically set up NWO systems. As we know already.
Bilderbergs inner core are SMOM Committee of 300 and Pilgrim society members.
Jesuit Retinger also recruited David Rockefeller as we know, to create Bilderberg. Rockefeller is of course also one of the true controllers of SMOM CFR and the SMOM's Federal Reserve.
He is of course also a Papal Knight of Malta, SMOM.


PAPAL KNIGHT OF MALTA!
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Enuff said?
Hardly!

Now, as a Papal Knight of Malta, SMOM, you serve the Vatican and the good Pope is your beloved Holy Father. Simple. That means that Hilters Vice Chancellor SMOM Franz von Papen served the archbishop of Munchen. Yes, these certain archbishops in key positions such as Munchen or NYC or Chicago (or the Patriarch of Moscow for that matter) are infact serious political agents for Rome. They are the masters of SMOM.

This also means that the political master of Bush is infact the master of SMOM American branch. And that is Achbishop of NYC Edward Cardinal Egan.

Don believe it? I know, it was new to me too. You better believe it, its not rocket science. There is no "super secret Illuminati lodge" of international bankers or anything like that. Its ROME, the Vatican! The ancient powerstructure that has dominated Europa and therefore the world the last 2000 years. Surprised?
Dont be. It was only until Protestantism came that Rome had the total despotic grip on everything.
Since then they have continually been trying to subvert every nation on earth.

The international bankers serve Rome. Cardinal Egan is the MASTER OF PAPAL KNIGHT ROCKEFELLER in principal. You have no idea how powerful some of these cardinals are.
Cardinal Spellman of NY was even hands-on involved in the SMOM's CIA's coup of Guatemala, CIA docs show!
All the while preaching the love of Virgin Mary to the Catholic congregation in the NYC chapel of St. Patrick (located at Rockefeller Center)

"Prince of the Vatican" the powerful head of American Knights of Malta, Archbishop of NYC Francis Cardinal Spellman:
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Who oversaw the murder of JFK, the Vietnam war, the cold war hoax the domination of British SIS drugtrading thru CIA and alot of other good stuff.


Who makes ppl president in the US? Media networks, bankers, religious leaders, lobby org., zionist org. etc.
ALL DOMINATED BY SMOM OR SERVING ROME. It simply is fact ppl.

So when you get to be president, you know who your daddy is. The SMOM! Rome, and therefore ultimately the cunning Jesuits. Especially those at Jesuit Georgetown University and Jesuit Fordham Universities.


I can go on and on connecting all the dots, and everytime, all the roads lead to Rome, Papal Caesar.
Why do you think Capitol Hill looks like St Peters Basilica? Why is there an obelisk in Christianity's center, the oval St Peters Square? Why is there an obelisk in Washington DC next to the oval office?
Old Rome's senate was on "Capitoline Hill".

The Jesuit General rewrote the 8 top degrees of Scottish Rite when under protection by Protestant Frederick the Great during the suppression.

The CIA belong to the Vatican ultimately. They have always ppl in key top positions to use and abuse this Govt. institution. Practically all CIA directors have been SMOM.
Created on the back of SMOM's Operation Paperclips by SMOM Allen Dulles and his Papal Bonesmen.

As a Bonesman (Russell Trust agent) you will as part of your initiation kiss the Pope's silky slippers. Now you know why. But maybe more importantly, they are knighted by a Bonesman pretending to be Don Quixote. Why? Cuz Quixote is a personae built on Ignatius Loyola, the first "black pope", founder of the Jesuits who studied with the auther of Don Quixote. Who was a fan of Loyola.
Bonesmen are given the knighthood of KNIGHTS OF EULOGIA, which was of course the knighthood Loyola gave to his jesuit soldiers. Knight of the Virgin Mary. That means they serve the Jesuits and are infact "jesuits of the short robe" so-called.

Dont be fooled, 'Knight of the Virgin Mary' Bush Jr. serves babylonian ROME! NOT some super secret Illuminati network. Its quite simple really.
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Here we go, let's drop the veils folks. Serving Rome is - the Knights of Malta, some more well-known SMOM REVEALED:

John J McCloy, helped stop attacks on Auswitch and made sure lots of nazies got free at Nuremberg etc.
Reagan, Bush puppet
Alfried Krupp, super industrialist, helped create EU
Reinhard Gehlen, Hitlers then later US's USSR agent, helped design the CIA after SS
Otto Skorzeny, CIA top nazi, who trained Arafat (PLO was founded by Jesuits folks)
Gistard d'Enstaing, Le Cercle, helped create EU
James Jesus Angleton, CIA co-designer
Kim Philby
William Buchley Jr.
John Dulles, brother of Allen Dulles, both law partners of SMOM Rockefeller and SMOM P. Bush
William Casey, CIA Director
Oliver North
Juan Carlos of Spain, VERY powerful SMOM, controller of MidEast, master of for example Shimon Peres who was trained in Poland by Jesuits and who's loyal to Rome and deeded Jerusalem to the Vatican in 1993 (Olmert another Romanist)
William wild bill Donovan
Avery Harriman
Clay Shaw
Bush Sr.
George de Mohrenshield, Oswalds handler
Eisenhower
George Tenet, CIA 9/11?
Tony Blair
Konrad Adenauer, German Chancellor, Le Cercle, helped create EU
Otto von Habsburg
Prescott Bush
Rupert Murdoch (also known as Rupert Greenburg, Jewish Zionist Papal Knight)
Antoine Pinay, France Prime minister
Augusto Pinochet
Warren Buffet
Rudolf Guiliani
Michael Bloomberg


And many more. ALL the usual suspects my friends. Thats what all the "jesuit conspiracy" thingy is about.


Now I ask: WHO IS IN CONTROL?


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“There does exist and has existed for a generation, an international network which operates, to some extent, in the way the radical right believes the Communists act. In fact, this network, which we may identify as the Round Table Groups, has no aversion to cooperating with the Communists, or any other groups, and frequently does so. I know of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to examine its papers and secret records. I have no aversion to it or to most of its aims, and have, for much of my life, been close to it and to many of its instruments. I have objected, both in the past and recently, to a few of its policies, but in general my chief difference of opinion is that it wishes to remain unknown, and I believe its role in history is significant enough to be known.”
- Professor Carroll Quigley

Quigley was right. But he still wouldnt mention Rome. He was a professor of Georgetown Univerisity, the Jesuit university where the REAL controllers of the US sit. Doubt it not.

CFR member Bill Clinton was groomed at the Jesuits Georgetown University and brought to power by SMOMs networks. He was given a Rhodes Scholarship by none other than Carroll Quigley whom he praised as his mentor in his inaugural speech.


There are many powerful elements pulling the strings, but please, take the time to read the books I link to in the end, especially (the very Christian!) Eric Jon Phelps masterpiece, Vatican Assassins.

Doubt not that the Zionists are serving the ancient Papacy which has finally become by far the greatest power of them all this day and age.


'The Third Reich is the first power which not only recognizes, but puts into practice, the high principles of the Papacy'
- SMOM Franz von Papen, Der Volkischer Beobachter, Jan., 1934

The Vatican signed a concordat with Nazi Germany in 1933, blessing Hitlers (who was prolly a Rothschild btw) takeover. The ppl then knew that Jesus himself vouched for Hitler (yeah I know, what a scam!)

Second from the left is SMOM Franz von Papen btw:
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'I swear and promise to honour the legally constituted i.e., Nazi Government. I will endeavour to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it'
- Article 16 of the Concordat between Nazi Germany and Vatican, June 1933


"The SS had been organized by Himmler according to the principles of the Jesuit Order. The rules of service and spiritual exercises prescribed by Ignatius de Loyola constituted a model which Hitler strove carefully to copy."
- Walter Shellenberg, Chief of the Nazi Sicherheitsdienst (SD)

Himmlers uncle was a Jesuit priest, given high place in the SS in order to help the Vatican's Zionist Holocaust to finally after 2000 years of trying, take control over Jerusalem.

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"This war [the American Civil War] would never have been possible without the sinister influence of the Jesuits. We owe it to Popery that we now see our land reddened with the blood of her noblest sons. Though there were great differences of opinion, between the South and the North, on the question of slavery, neither Jeff Davis nor any one of the leading men of the Confederacy would have dared to attack the North had they not relied on the promises of the Jesuits that, under the mask of democracy, the money and the arms of the Roman Catholics, even the arms of France, were at their disposal if they would attack us."
- Lincoln, who was killed in a jesuit plot by John Surrat, friend of Booth and aquitted in the end. For being a menace to the monetary takeover and opposing the eventual 14th amendment centralization in Washington DC making State citizensip subordinate to Washington Federal Citizenship.


Edwin A. Sherman, and American Freemason writing in the 19th century stated:
‘The Jesuits laugh at us; and during their hilarity, the rattlesnake is coiled at our feet, climbing to strike us in the heart.’

Jesuits used to poison ppl. Their favorite.


“The Rothschilds were Jesuits who used their Jewish background as a façade to cover their sinister activities. The Jesuits, working through Rothschild and [financier Nicholas] Biddle, sought to gain control of the banking system of the United States.”
- Bill Hughes (Author of The Secret Terrorists and The Enemy Unmasked)

“Aware that the Rothschilds are an important Jewish family, I looked them up in [the] Encyclopedia Judaica and discovered that they bear the title ‘Guardians of the Vatican Treasury’… The appointment of Rothschild gave the Black Papacy [i.e., the hierarchy of the Jesuit Order] absolute financial privacy and secrecy. Who would ever search a family of orthodox Jews for the key to the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church?”
- F. Tupper Saussy (Author of the book Rulers of Evil)


“Jesuit” (per Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of the English Language): “One of the Society of Jesus, so called, founded by Ignatius Loyola; a society remarkable for their cunning in propagating their principles.”

“Jesuitism” (per Webster’s 1828 Dictionary of the English Language):
[1.] The arts, principles and practices of the Jesuits.
[2.] Cunning; deceit; hypocrisy; prevarication; deceptive practices to effect a purpose.”



I really wish ppl would snap out of it and look to Rome, just TRY and read these books. If you REALLY care about getting to the bottom of this NWO sh** that is so all-encompassing, the first step is to understand that Zionism serves Rome. Yes, the Vatican is notoriously Jew hating and god knows the Jesuits love to kill Jews, but Zionists are SERVING ROME. They are VERY powerful, but they know their place and they love it.

Then understanding how all-powerful and incredibly hidden SMOM are. And finally learning how the Jesuits work and modern-day control of the Vatican. Opus Dei is powerful, yes, and they serve Rome (the have 3 supreme court Justices in US btw, Roberts, Alite and Thomas, all 3 put in office by Arlon "magic bullet" Spector) but nothing compared to the 500-year old Society of Jesus and their universities and colleges.
Not by a long shot.

There is NO secret Illuminati lodge that controls it all. Its called Sovereign Military Order of Malta!
THEY control it all on behalf of the Vatican which is controlled by the Jesuits, their general superior staff and the god damn Black Pope! They're fanatic Papists all of them! They love the Papacy's Babylon worship nightmare or whatever.

Believe what you will my friends, Im just trying to enlighten ppl to this relatively simple reality.

Oh, I almost forgot. Who wrote the Protocols? Who do you think? You guessed it. The biggest Jew haters ever, the Jesuits. There's a book here from 1933 that documents it.


excl.gif Vatican Assassins - 2nd Edition e-book (55 MB)
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http://www.focusnz.com/tractsforfree/VaticanAssassins.pdf

13 supressed books about the Jesuit Order:
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_01.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_02.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_03.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_04.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_05.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_06.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_07.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_08.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_09.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_10.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_11.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_12.zip
http://scifiles.no-ip.com/files/PDF/BOOK_13.zip

I'm curious to see if anyone will read that entire post. I got to the part about the "black pope" and decided it wasn't for me.

I would think that an elaborate network of powerful conspirators would have done a better job of covering up the sex abouse scandal of previous years in the catholic church.

Not Yet.



That is a solid point. If they couldn't keep all that hush hush, how the heck are they supposed to control the world secretly?

Just like people know about the sex scandals, people know about the control of the world thing.

Some people dont know of either of the above.

But when you look into it, it becomes pretty clear, just need to be focused and do the research and check the connections.

Peace.

Problem with CTers evidenced by this #1: "If you look into this, the only answer you could possibly come up with is that of the CT."

Maybe TK *has* looked into this, and just arrived at a different results. You've often claimed this sort of thing against history and science on the Alt History board. Does it not commute to current events? At its root, it still has the same basic problem as saying "All History is wrong": it implies that you are The Only One Ever to Really Understand History and Science.

--Jaylemurph

And this is the problem with the pseudo intellects who only come here to vent their repressed anger. "#1" The words in your quotaion marks are not what darkbreed said. He never said or implied it was the "only answer you could possibly come up with". Thats your own pathetic interpretation and a rather dry attack. Secondly, he never said or implied "all history was wrong" or that he was the "only one to really ever understand history and science", thats all you again. All darkbreed said was -

"But when you look into it, it becomes pretty clear, just need to be focused and do the research and check the connections."

So jaylemurph, "#1", you can see words that the rest of us cannot.
#2, or you are making generalization and imposing stereotypes on anyone who has interests or opinions outside your own.

I don't think I have ever seen you actualy contribute to a thread in this section, even as a debunker or skeptic. Your posts mainly seem to consist of sarcastic comments meant to ridicule those with different views than you. Its really quite sad.

And this is the problem with the pseudo intellects who only come here to vent their repressed anger. "#1" The words in your quotaion marks are not what darkbreed said. He never said or implied it was the "only answer you could possibly come up with". Thats your own pathetic interpretation and a rather dry attack. Secondly, he never said or implied "all history was wrong" or that he was the "only one to really ever understand history and science", thats all you again. All darkbreed said was -

Look closely and you'll see I was not talking specifically about DB, although I do strongly believe (based on what he's said in the Alt. History forum, where you seldom post) he is implying modern history is wrong.

And I'm not a pseudo-intellectual. I'd be happy to forward along some boring but actual academic papers I've written for work, or my CV, or a lesson plan for a lecture later in the month. Now, who was it talking about "making generalization [sic] and imposing stereotypes on anyone who has interests or opinions outside your own"?

Should I ask my father in law if he's Illuminati? He's a former Jesuit priest.

I'm totally going to send this to him... it's hilarious (or what I read of it, I didn't finish it) he'll either laugh his hiney off or he'll start some serious cloak and dagger stuff against me now that I know his secret! Muahahahahahah.

Ya, I'm thinking he'll find this to be very funny.

Your comments were in direct respones to DB and they were not posted in the Alt. history section.

I have a better idea. Why don't you post your papers here for all to pour over. I am sure there is no-one here who would stoop to the level of petty insults or ridiculing opinions which deferred from there own. I am sure as enlightened as you think you are your papers must be lock tight and solid, expressing views undeniable by anyone in the entire universe. So, post them in the appropriate section, give us a heads up here.

Congratulations on your perfection of telepathy, since you apparently know what I was thinking better than *I* did.

Well, first of all, they aren't on topic for *anything* here, and secondly, as I say, they aren't all that interesting unless you're thinking of directing a production of something from the English Renaissance -- maybe you have a fascinating new concept for The Knight of the Burning Pestle? And thirdly, quite frankly, I don't feel like putting them up for critique here, as relatively few people are going to have the specialized knowledge to do a fair job criticizing it, although if you are au fait with the New Historicism movement and concomitant re-evaluation of Marlovian or Carolinian drama, I'll be happy to discuss it. And I'll still send them along to you privately.

Well, contemporary methods of studying literature its not a field I know much of anything about. However, if my uderstanding is correct you have adopted new methods of interpretating literary works in response to a stagnation of the existing established methods.

If my understanding is correct, it seems loosely similar to people (like Cters) re-evaluating the historical narative with outside sources and comparable events. I am probably wrong in my undertanding of your field and I am sure you will disagree with my comparison of it with CTers looking for an expanded understanding of history. If nothing else I suspect you will toss another dry jab about telepathy or ufos or something at me.

I don't understand why you would care if people had the "specialized knowledge" to criticize your work. It seems that by your standards, a bunch of sarcastic comments would do. Why would they even need to really consider your ideas if they could just respond to them with lowbrow sass like "so you think you know literature better than anyone in the world, you think all other literary criticism is wrong and your interpitation are the only possible ones anyone could reach, you think you are smarter than the whole world"?

See, this exactly what I was talking about. New methods of criticism generally don't emerge out of the "stagnation" of established methods. Indeed, many older forms of criticism exist side-by-side with newer trends, and are often cross-pollinated by them. They are still Marxist critics and Freudian critics discussing things with Feminist Critics and Structuralist critics. I think there's an implied linearity and growth pattern in your suggestion (of a "pre-stagnation" period at the very least that comes logically must arise from a "stagnation" and of one modality "taking the place" of the stagnated growth.)
If you're going to impose an organic model on this sort of thing, it might be better to suggest a garden of flowers: they're influenced by different factors in the terroir, have different seasons in which they appear, and are grown by the gardener for different reasons, and there is no one-to-one causality in the relationship of different flowers.

Loosely, yes. As I see it, the fundamental difference here is that works of literature can have several different interpretations simultaneously: someone can read The House of Mirth, for instance, and their Marxist interpretation of it (that the protagonist falls because of the vicissitudes of unfair capitalism) and that in no ways invalidates a Feminists interpretation that Lilly Bart commits suicide because she will not conform to the roles available to women in early 20th Century New York.
With a conspiracy theory, though, interpretations have to be (more or less) mutually exclusive: either a rogue faction of the government created a controlled demolition on 9/11 or they didn't. Either there is the Covert Alliance of Nebulous Meanies ruling the world, or there isn't.

Well, if you had never read Arden of Faversham, or the works of Marlowe or many of the works of Shakespeare, then you wouldn't be able to judge how effective a discussion of authorship between the two the two would be for Arden.

And unlike CTers, should someone give me a response like yours, I have resort a tradition and community of highly trained and respected scholars, with bona fide accreditations, /and their consensus/, and be able to point to concise, unquestioned examples. This, of course, relies on a single fact that many CTers hate: people with training and experience in a subject have opinions worth more on that subject that a random person on the internet. All opinions, alas, are not equal.

--Jaylemurph

Well, as I said I am not schooled in progressive methods literary criticism. I wasn't attempting to impose any sort of model or imply pattern of linearity and stated that I was probably wrong in my understanding of it.



I would have to argue there is more complexity in it than that. However, I agree that matters of history are unlike aesthetic and ideological interpitations of fiction. However, despite what really happened or what really exists, which is concrete and either/or, the narritive of those things has been written by third parties and is subject to interpitation/ideology/omission. Your literary critism starts with the concrete words of the various works and expands on them with interpitation. Conspiracy theories start with interpitations and work toward concrete. Admitedly, this gives CTs the achilles heel of needing some sort of disclosure or new revelation to solidify their conclusions as "concrete".

Thats all well and good. However, how does your training in literary criticism qualify your opinions on matters of the occult and conspiracies as being more valid than say, some random person on the internet? What credentials do you have that allow you to ridicual people who discuss such topics? Is it because you mantian the status quo? We are all familiar with the status quo and the accepted narative, I don't see how it can be used as a measure of authority or excuse attack those who question it. When it comes down to it, no matter how you justify it or what fancy papers you writen, your sarcasm and mockery is more akin to a trait of an egotistical child than that of an intellectual.

Well, it's arguable that logic and science generally works from specific, concrete examples into general theory, since it works to explain specific, discrete events first, and then based on those results is applied to larger questions. It's why chemistry was developed before nuclear physics, for example, since chemistry proves that atoms exist. Once you know how atoms exist, then you find out more about them.
By your description, then, CT works in the opposite way of logic and science. It's just a basic mistake of logic to work from interpretations *before* you have the facts to justify them. If you can't grasp it that or don't want to believe it, I can't argue the point further -- but it points out exactly why so much CT is based not on anything tangible, but the prejudices the CTer already has.

Literary criticism is based on logical argumentation, so I am well qualifie to speak out on how logic works. Or, more to the point here, doesn't. If Cters wanted to go off on their own and believe their respective craziness, that's fine. I would not do anything to stop them or alter them. However, when they want to have a discussion where they insist their personal craziness is real, then I step in. The fact that they sometimes want to play the "but I'm using Science/Logic" game -- and every sentence that starts out "this is the only conclusion you can arrive at" is a play at that -- makes it worse. They're playing a game without knowing the rules, basically, and then crying foul anybody says "Uhh... that's not how it works". That, sir, is what is childish. I admit a certain cynicism -- a well-earned cynicism, I feel -- but it's generally only aimed at people (not usually yourself, though you seem to have interposed yourself graciously here on the behalf of others) who continue to abuse science into parroting their beliefs.

--Jaylemurph

That essentially assumes the historians allways get it right the first time. That kind of thinking reminds of the president of the pantent office (around the turn of the 19th century) who wanted to close the pantent office because he thought there was nothing left to invent. Basiacly, the mentality that we know it all allready and there is no need to look further or question what is accepted. By your model of building on only whats accepted fact and refusing to question the ststus quo, we would still be fearing falling off the edge of the earth. Your statement also implies police detectives don't follow logic in their work. However, I think the majority of CTs are based in "fact" as most of the more schooled CTers have no problem pointing out government documents, historical quotations and evidence to support their claims. I agree though, you are not going to be able to argue that point any furrther.

Well, alot of fields are based on logical argumentation, its certianly not an exclusive trait of literay criticism. I hope you don't somehow assume your eucation in your field makes you an expert on everything by default. At best, outside your expertise, it only qulaifies you to argue logic with others on a similar acidemic level.

I have got to give you a nod of respect for admitting your cynicism, its more than I think the average forum finkelstein would do. I can offer you a sincere olive branch by admiting my own cynicism, yet I think I have it more under control than you. In bold above you claim its when "they insist their personal craziness is real", yet there is no eveidence (remember the concrete) that DB did that in this thread. With consideration to the forum rules of trolling and flame baiting, I am curious how you justify attacking DB in a topic that even by your own standards its unwarranted in?