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Paranoid Android
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Jan 28 2008, 09:31 PM) *
Why is the OT and thee NT so different?? what I mean is ... the OT does make God seem harsh, but the NT makes God & jesus out to be loving, it is like looking a a jackle & hyde book
Hi BM. This is a popular misconception about the two Testaments. People make it out like the God of the Old Testament is this awful tyrant who's willing to smite a person for farting in the wrong direction. Whereas people then make out the God of the New Testament to be a cute and cuddly teddy bear that you can take to bed and keep you warm in winter. The truth is that neither point of view is accurate. The God of the New Testament is very much judgemental, and promises punishment and death. And the God of the Old Testament is also loving and kind, and promises Grace and forgiveness and Mercy.

It's just that most people focus on certain parts of the Bible. Many people (including Christians) focus on the New Testament aspect of "God is Love". They ignore the passages which speak of imminent judgement and punishment (and indeed God promises just that in the New Testament). Likewise people focus on acts of Judgement in the Old Testament and ignore the very next section where God brings Grace and peace and mercy (and yes, it is there, but people ignore it in favour of reading the acts of Judgement).

God is not as kind nor as judgmental as he is popularly portrayed.

Just a few thoughts to consider.....

~ Regards, PA



Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (Paranoid Android @ Jan 28 2008, 01:33 PM) *
Quite good, actually. If you note his response to that, he agreed with me and thanked me for showing him information that was lacking in his own understanding of scripture. So no, it's not quite as simple as personal and individual interpretation. His interpretation was plain wrong, and when shown the evidence he agreed and apologised for bringing up false information into the thread.

That's not to say though that I am always right, nor is it meant to imply that my knowledge is greater than anyone else's. I'm likely to be wrong at times also. But just because there is the chance that we will get things wrong from time to time does not mean that we should not try, right?

~ PA


No harm to anyone, but I believe different christians hold a right to understand the bible in their OWN way

PA you believe your way is the only right way, it looks a tad ignorant towards other christians..I don't mean that in a bad way..I mean - we all are far from perfect and even those who have studied a subject for so long can still be wrong...yes PA this includes you too...

As the bible does not explain what it means...people have been trying to interpret what they can get from it, to gain an understanding...that makes them feel comfort in their bible....that is what should matter to the individual and it is not anyones place to sit and correct that individual ...

All that should matter is...the christian has jesus in their hearts and they do their best to be a good christian...never mind all this correction..especially when no one has proof that the words written are correct..it is all a belief on how one likes to believe so



doktorhook
QUOTE (Llucid @ Jan 28 2008, 03:31 AM) *
I see what your saying but there still is a conflict with your reasoning.


I appreciate your patience. Actually there is no conflict whith my reasoning & I'll attempt to prove it to you.

QUOTE
It is true that everything is God, but like I said, sin is a non-thing.


Which means it is a concept only & is merely a way of thinking. That's why I said "so called sin". But even thought is a thing!

QUOTE
The reason sin is possible is because God chose to define Himself.


This is not entirely possible for an infinite god because to "define" something is to give it limits. Infinity on the other hand is the absence of limits. Therefore a defined god is a limited god.

QUOTE
He did this by telling us what He wants and what He doesn't want (which created free will in us).


Though I see from a philosophical standpoint how you can get free will by being given choices, we would have no true free will with an infinite god because every choice we would make would actually be god's. Only a limited, defined, god could allow free will.

QUOTE
If He hadn't done this, then the rest of what you said would apply- "...everything is done by gods will...".


As I've hopefully shown though, it must inevitably apply to an infinte god. It can be no other way because god would literally be everything, making all concepts, etc., etc..

QUOTE
Since God chose to define Himself and set boundries, then it is possible to fall outside of those boundries making "...everything is done by gods will..." inaccurate.


Again a defined god is a limited god which means there would indeed be things outside of gods power. This can only mean one thing. There is a creator for the creator. For if an intelligence created all things, that being would be infinite. Both simultaneously good & evil, black & white, sinner & saint, positive & negative, being & non being, alive & dead. for all of those things are infact "things". They are defined & have limits. So I must inevitably conclude that I am not mistaken.






Paranoid Android
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Jan 29 2008, 12:52 AM) *
PA you believe your way is the only right way, it looks a tad ignorant towards other christians
Hi BM. I'm not sure where you got this information from. If you read my second paragraph, I did say *and I quote* "That is not to say that I am always right, nor is it meant to imply my knowledge is greater than anyone else's". I specifically stated that I was not always right, and therefore that my way is NOT the only right way. However, in that particular instance, regarding that particular poster, he (a Christian) made a mistake about the nature of the Hebrew language. And since in this instance my knowledge was greater than his I corrected his mistake (filled in a gap in his knowledge, so to speak). This person thanked me for giving him more information than he previously had. That certainly does not make my way the only right way, and it certainly does not make my view look "a tad ignorant towards other Chrisitans".

QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Jan 29 2008, 12:52 AM) *
..I don't mean that in a bad way..I mean - we all are far from perfect and even those who have studied a subject for so long can still be wrong...yes PA this includes you too...
No arguments here. I said as much in my post that you quoted. Paragraph two, first sentence yes.gif

QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Jan 29 2008, 12:52 AM) *
As the bible does not explain what it means...people have been trying to interpret what they can get from it, to gain an understanding...that makes them feel comfort in their bible....that is what should matter to the individual and it is not anyones place to sit and correct that individual ...

All that should matter is...the christian has jesus in their hearts and they do their best to be a good christian...never mind all this correction..especially when no one has proof that the words written are correct..it is all a belief on how one likes to believe so
When someone makes a mistake about the basic nature of the Hebrew language, I post a correction. That would be obvious. Better than allow people to continue to spread misinformation about the Hebrew language, wouldn't you think? So I disagree - if my knowledge of certain aspects of Hebrew is better than another's, it is most definitely my place to correct that individual. I would hope that a person did the same thing for me if my knowledge of Hebrew was deficient (and I can say for certain that it is far from perfect). This same principle applies to other areas of biblical understanding, not just knowledge of Hebrew Roots.

However, in general I do agree that the primary sign of a Christian is whether he or she has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and abides by Jesus' life example. But that does not mean that all Christian's have the greatest knowledge of their Faith or of the language it was written in. By showing that this person's ideas on Hebrew were mistaken I did not imply they themselves were not Chrisitan. As said, all I was doing was filling in a gap in the person's knowledge, and I would hope that others would do the same for me (they have in the past).

Know what I mean.

~ Regards, PA
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (Paranoid Android @ Jan 28 2008, 01:45 PM) *
Hi BM. This is a popular misconception about the two Testaments. People make it out like the God of the Old Testament is this awful tyrant who's willing to smite a person for farting in the wrong direction. Whereas people then make out the God of the New Testament to be a cute and cuddly teddy bear that you can take to bed and keep you warm in winter. The truth is that neither point of view is accurate. The God of the New Testament is very much judgemental, and promises punishment and death. And the God of the Old Testament is also loving and kind, and promises Grace and forgiveness and Mercy.

It's just that most people focus on certain parts of the Bible. Many people (including Christians) focus on the New Testament aspect of "God is Love". They ignore the passages which speak of imminent judgement and punishment (and indeed God promises just that in the New Testament). Likewise people focus on acts of Judgement in the Old Testament and ignore the very next section where God brings Grace and peace and mercy (and yes, it is there, but people ignore it in favour of reading the acts of Judgement).

God is not as kind nor as judgmental as he is popularly portrayed.

Just a few thoughts to consider.....

~ Regards, PA


Thanks but it is not how I see it

Actually it is not how I imagine God either..

I believe god will punish anyone after death..but how he does it..we will only ever find out when we die

I believe God is all knowing......therefore he knows exactly what is in your heart........he does NOT need to do anything drastic to test you

I believe God is all loving and very forgiving.....but not so forgiving towards anyone who continued to go against him and never once felt bad and sorry for it..

BUT...if you where to continue to turn on God regardless..i believe God will punish...but like I said before..no one will know untill they die

I also believe if you let God down and never ask for forgiveness...he will teach you a lesson..but not in a brutal harsh way...just in suchh a way that will mmake you realize what you have done to God

I should know...for the 1st time inn my life..I just experienced what it was like to make God a promise...continue to break it by not keeping my word...then expect God to answer my prayer..well he taught me a lesson and I looked at it as a punishment......it made me think hard as to what i did wrong to God..........................What happened next?? I repented and i put all I could into it...I didnt stop, I repented every time i got a chance ..........RESULT??? yes, he then gave me a chance by the looks of it, and things got way better...im thankful I no longer have to suffer...his message through the punishment was straight forward - do not make a promise to me and then go back on it...it is wrong..it is also lying to God...my eyes where opened.

So there you have it...he knows exactly what lays in my heart and others...he doesn't need to test your love..he already knows....that PA is how i see God original.gif


Paranoid Android
^ Hi BM, sorry but I don't see the relevance to my response. You asked the question about why God was so different in the OT and NT, and when I responded, you replied by giving me your own personal view of God. While I certainly respect your Right to believe as you see fit, you asked a question about the Bible, and it is from this point of view that I responded. If you were going to dismiss the response and just tell me what you believed, then why ask the question in the first place.

Perhaps I'm missing something though, so please elaborate if I'm mistaken. thanks.

~ Paranoid Android
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (Paranoid Android @ Jan 28 2008, 02:06 PM) *
Hi BM. I'm not sure where you got this information from. If you read my second paragraph, I did say *and I quote* "That is not to say that I am always right, nor is it meant to imply my knowledge is greater than anyone else's". I specifically stated that I was not always right, and therefore that my way is NOT the only right way. However, in that particular instance, regarding that particular poster, he (a Christian) made a mistake about the nature of the Hebrew language. And since in this instance my knowledge was greater than his I corrected his mistake (filled in a gap in his knowledge, so to speak). This person thanked me for giving him more information than he previously had. That certainly does not make my way the only right way, and it certainly does not make my view look "a tad ignorant towards other Chrisitans".

No arguments here. I said as much in my post that you quoted. Paragraph two, first sentence yes.gif

When someone makes a mistake about the basic nature of the Hebrew language, I post a correction. That would be obvious. Better than allow people to continue to spread misinformation about the Hebrew language, wouldn't you think? So I disagree - if my knowledge of certain aspects of Hebrew is better than another's, it is most definitely my place to correct that individual. I would hope that a person did the same thing for me if my knowledge of Hebrew was deficient (and I can say for certain that it is far from perfect). This same principle applies to other areas of biblical understanding, not just knowledge of Hebrew Roots.

However, in general I do agree that the primary sign of a Christian is whether he or she has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and abides by Jesus' life example. But that does not mean that all Christian's have the greatest knowledge of their Faith or of the language it was written in. By showing that this person's ideas on Hebrew were mistaken I did not imply they themselves were not Chrisitan. As said, all I was doing was filling in a gap in the person's knowledge, and I would hope that others would do the same for me (they have in the past).

Know what I mean.

~ Regards, PA


Yes I guess you are correct..it would be better if some people had the right info on the hebrew language....

as for just talking and explaining what passages mean in the bible ...
I believe a lot of christians do their very best..you do as well...

I am willing to bet that there are priests, ministers & pastors that can be wrong about a number of passages from the bible LOL...even if they are wrong...I doubt hey are doing any harm


Maybe it is because so many men have re-written and changed a number of things.....IE its no big secret how the Catholic church tampered with it all ...just a prime example
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (Paranoid Android @ Jan 28 2008, 02:17 PM) *
^ Hi BM, sorry but I don't see the relevance to my response. You asked the question about why God was so different in the OT and NT, and when I responded, you replied by giving me your own personal view of God. While I certainly respect your Right to believe as you see fit, you asked me a question about the Bible, and it is from this point of view that I responded. If you were going to dismiss the response and just tell me what you believed, then why ask the question in the first place.

Perhaps I'm missing something though, so please elaborate if I'm mistaken. thanks.

~ Paranoid Android


PA...I was just responding to your post..like this one....

QUOTE
It's just that most people focus on certain parts of the Bible. Many people (including Christians) focus on the New Testament aspect of "God is Love". They ignore the passages which speak of imminent judgement and punishment (and indeed God promises just that in the New Testament). Likewise people focus on acts of Judgement in the Old Testament and ignore the very next section where God brings Grace and peace and mercy (and yes, it is there, but people ignore it in favour of reading the acts of Judgement).People make it out like the God of the Old Testament is this awful tyrant who's willing to smite a person for farting in the wrong direction. Whereas people then make out the God of the New Testament to be a cute and cuddly teddy bear that you can take to bed and keep you warm in winter. The truth is that neither point of view is accurate. The God of the New Testament is very much judgemental, and promises punishment and death. And the God of the Old Testament is also loving and kind, and promises Grace and forgiveness and Mercy.

God is not as kind nor as judgmental as he is popularly portrayed.

Just a few thoughts to consider.....


As you can see, you where explaining to me how you and other christians see God in the OT and in the NT..and how he is not just some cuddly teddy bear ect

So from what you told me about how others see GOD.......I just explained to you how I don't see him that way and broke down a number of points to explain how I see it...


like this...

Actually it is not how I imagine God either..

I believe god will punish anyone after death..but how he does it..we will only ever find out when we die

I believe God is all knowing.....therefore he knows exactly what is in your heart........he does NOT need to do anything drastic to test you

I believe God is all loving and very forgiving.....but not so forgiving towards anyone who continued to go against him and never once felt bad and sorry for it..

BUT...if you where to continue to turn on God regardless..i believe God will punish...but like I said before..no one will know untill they die

I also believe if you let God down and never ask for forgiveness...he will teach you a lesson..but not in a brutal harsh way...just in suchh a way that will mmake you realize what you have done to God

I should know...for the 1st time inn my life..I just experienced what it was like to make God a promise...continue to break it by not keeping my word...then expect God to answer my prayer..well he taught me a lesson and I looked at it as a punishment......it made me think hard as to what i did wrong to God..........................What happened next?? I repented and i put all I could into it...I didnt stop, I repented every time i got a chance ..........RESULT??? yes, he then gave me a chance by the looks of it, and things got way better...im thankful I no longer have to suffer...his message through the punishment was straight forward - do not make a promise to me and then go back on it...it is wrong..it is also lying to God...my eyes where opened.

So there you have it...he knows exactly what lays in my heart and others...he doesn't need to test your love..he already knows....that PA is how i see God original.gif


See?? LOL
danielost
sorry BM but that is where everyone has it wrong.

It isn't god who will punish it is us.


We will punish ourselves for our sins.


all god and Christ are going to do is make sure that the punishment is warranted.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (danielost @ Jan 28 2008, 02:36 PM) *
sorry BM but that is where everyone has it wrong.

As you are responding to my post on how I see God in answer to how PA and others see God..

Sorry but i fail to see how on earth anyone can say who has it wrong or right for that matter...after all, if there was just one true way and one true faith...then we all would be part of the one faith..but we arent..that is a fact...(actually if a faith was proved to be 100% certain and we all saw evidence of it..then it wouldnt be called a faith anymore)

Both you and I cannot state for sure who has it wrong....all we can do is hold what we BELIEVE is wrong



QUOTE
all god and Christ are going to do is make sure that the punishment is warranted.

If that was the case, then no christian would believe there is a place called HELL ..and it is a fiery pit to spend eternity to suffer for what you did against god


As we have no actual proof of this..we continue to hold what is best known as a belief/faith

For all you know, i could be much closer to the truth..and me vice versa

See??
seanph
QUOTE
PA Hi BM. This is a popular misconception about the two Testaments. People make it out like the God of the Old Testament is this awful tyrant who's willing to smite a person for farting in the wrong direction.


Ok ... now that's just damn funny! grin2.gif Thank goodness I had just finished my coffee ... lest I would have shot it out of my nose! grin2.gif

QUOTE
Whereas people then make out the God of the New Testament to be a cute and cuddly teddy bear that you can take to bed and keep you warm in winter. The truth is that neither point of view is accurate. The God of the New Testament is very much judgemental, and promises punishment and death. And the God of the Old Testament is also loving and kind, and promises Grace and forgiveness and Mercy.

It's just that most people focus on certain parts of the Bible. Many people (including Christians) focus on the New Testament aspect of "God is Love". They ignore the passages which speak of imminent judgement and punishment (and indeed God promises just that in the New Testament). Likewise people focus on acts of Judgement in the Old Testament and ignore the very next section where God brings Grace and peace and mercy (and yes, it is there, but people ignore it in favour of reading the acts of Judgement).

God is not as kind nor as judgmental as he is popularly portrayed.

Just a few thoughts to consider.....

~ Regards, PA


I would tend to agree--at least for the most part. Well said. wink2.gif

Regarding midrash ... This is not simply the view of Goulder, but a widely held belief amongst scholars. Such midrashic elements applied by the evangelists are very evident in the Gospels--such as the crucifixion scene (taken nearly verbatim from the Psalms), prophecies applied to Jesus so forth and so on. This was quite normal during this period--scour the OT to find answers to certain events and peoples. Of course that doesn't mean that the Gospels do not contain echoes of actual historical events. They do--without question! The problem, of course, is trying to determine fact from fiction. Therein lies the difficulties.

As for claims that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts ... Again, it was well-known from very early on that this was not the case...

"It is certain that the New Testament was not written by Christ himself, nor by his apostles, but a long while after them, by some unknown persons, who, lest they should not be credited when they wrote of affairs they were little acquainted with... Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since--as already it has been often proved--these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."--St. Faustus, Fifth-Century French Bishop

Great read here ...

What are the Gospels (From Jesus to Christ, Professor L. Michael White)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...ry/gospels.html

We will have to simply agree to disagree here, my friend. wink2.gif

Respectfully,

Sean
norwood1026
Unless you’re Jewish I don’t see how that anyone can be sure of what they are reading is correct or not even with a Hebrew text book. Your still basing what one book says with another go find someone who’s Jewish & get back to me on it. Being only human you tend to stick with those ideas that support the point that he/she wishes to achieve. Unless you’re Jewish I don’t see how that anyone can be sure of what they are reading is correct or not even with a Hebrew text book. Your still basing what one book says with another go find someone who’s Jewish & get back to me on it. Being only human you tend to stick with those ideas that support the point that he/she wishes to achieve.
Lets face it your trying to get the interpations of something that’s some 2,000 yeas old who really knows how many times that it’s been changed.
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE (norwood1026 @ Jan 28 2008, 01:11 PM) *
Unless you’re Jewish I don’t see how that anyone can be sure of what they are reading is correct or not even with a Hebrew text book. Your still basing what one book says with another go find someone who’s Jewish & get back to me on it. Being only human you tend to stick with those ideas that support the point that he/she wishes to achieve. Unless you’re Jewish I don’t see how that anyone can be sure of what they are reading is correct or not even with a Hebrew text book. Your still basing what one book says with another go find someone who’s Jewish & get back to me on it. Being only human you tend to stick with those ideas that support the point that he/she wishes to achieve.
Lets face it your trying to get the interpations of something that’s some 2,000 yeas old who really knows how many times that it’s been changed.


any good Jew will tell you even they don't know . it's all interpretation . otherwise scholars still wouldn't be sitting around arguing it. lol.

not to mention it's a culmination of various other beliefs and mythologies with some politics and opinion.
hairston630
QUOTE (seanph @ Jan 28 2008, 05:25 PM) *
Ok ... now that's just damn funny! grin2.gif Thank goodness I had just finished my coffee ... lest I would have shot it out of my nose! grin2.gif



I would tend to agree--at least for the most part. Well said. wink2.gif

Regarding midrash ... This is not simply the view of Goulder, but a widely held belief amongst scholars. Such midrashic elements applied by the evangelists are very evident in the Gospels--such as the crucifixion scene (taken nearly verbatim from the Psalms), prophecies applied to Jesus so forth and so on. This was quite normal during this period--scour the OT to find answers to certain events and peoples. Of course that doesn't mean that the Gospels do not contain echoes of actual historical events. They do--without question! The problem, of course, is trying to determine fact from fiction. Therein lies the difficulties.

As for claims that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts ... Again, it was well-known from very early on that this was not the case...

"It is certain that the New Testament was not written by Christ himself, nor by his apostles, but a long while after them, by some unknown persons, who, lest they should not be credited when they wrote of affairs they were little acquainted with... Many things have been inserted by our ancestors in the speeches of our Lord which, though put forth under his name, agree not with his faith; especially since--as already it has been often proved--these things were written not by Christ, nor [by] his apostles, but a long while after their assumption, by I know not what sort of half Jews, not even agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale out of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the Lord or on those who were supposed to follow the apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them."--St. Faustus, Fifth-Century French Bishop

Great read here ...

What are the Gospels (From Jesus to Christ, Professor L. Michael White)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...ry/gospels.html

We will have to simply agree to disagree here, my friend. wink2.gif

Respectfully,

Sean


Good afternoon my friend!. I also agree that there are apparent contradictions in the gospels. They seem to disagree the most, in the most important part of the whole story (the tomb!). Now, there is a creed that is dated around 24-36 months after the supposed death of Jesus and this is stated in Corinthians, I believe. This creed takes us back to around the time of Jesus death. This creed was in regards to his death and resurrection. Now the problems that arise are this: Paul doesnt say hardly anything about what is in the gospels. He doesnt even acknowledge a tomb (though many imply and ask why would this be necessary) but he does acknowledge his death and resurrection.

So we do have some attestation of belief within a couple years of the supposed resurrection account. Though this is assuring for the christian, it opens the door to interpolations in the later gospels. They are much later, they have known interpolations, and it is possible that there may have been one or 2 sources that the gospels were copied off of. An example: One of the gospels seem to mention "blessed are the poor", while the other says "blessed are the poor in spirit". These are 2 different things and Im willing to say that each writer MAY have just cut and edited those words to fit a theological agenda...one in regards to the poor and one in regards to the spiritually poor. I believe we have good evidence that there was a Jesus, there was a death on a cross, a tomb, and that there were "appearances" that the disciples and paul attested to seeing. Whether these were real appearances, I dont know and I dont think its possible to know for a fact. I dont think the gospels can be considered completely historical (though i believe there is SOME historicity to the accounts) but this does not rule out the possibility that it happened. I dont consider it illogical for christians to believe that it happened.

Kindly,

Hairston
norwood1026
QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Jan 28 2008, 06:28 PM) *
any good Jew will tell you even they don't know . it's all interpretation . otherwise scholars still wouldn't be sitting around arguing it. lol.
not to mention it's a culmination of various other beliefs and mythologies with some politics and opinion.


Excatly!
That’s one of the many problems that I find are wrong with Christianity. You got 20 something experts on the bible & none of them can agree on anything in it. With people who claim to be experts on it & who are always fighting who’s really to know what’s right & what is not?
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (norwood1026 @ Jan 28 2008, 09:57 PM) *
Excatly!
That’s one of the many problems that I find are wrong with Christianity. You got 20 something experts on the bible & none of them can agree on anything in it. With people who claim to be experts on it & who are always fighting who’s really to know what’s right & what is not?

100% correct
Llucid
QUOTE (doktorhook @ Jan 28 2008, 08:56 AM) *
I appreciate your patience. Actually there is no conflict whith my reasoning & I'll attempt to prove it to you.

Which means it is a concept only & is merely a way of thinking. That's why I said "so called sin". But even thought is a thing!

This is not entirely possible for an infinite god because to "define" something is to give it limits. Infinity on the other hand is the absence of limits. Therefore a defined god is a limited god.

Though I see from a philosophical standpoint how you can get free will by being given choices, we would have no true free will with an infinite god because every choice we would make would actually be god's. Only a limited, defined, god could allow free will.

Again a defined god is a limited god which means there would indeed be things outside of gods power. This can only mean one thing. There is a creator for the creator. For if an intelligence created all things, that being would be infinite. Both simultaneously good & evil, black & white, sinner & saint, positive & negative, being & non being, alive & dead. for all of those things are infact "things". They are defined & have limits. So I must inevitably conclude that I am not mistaken.


You are exactly right. An infinite God couldn't have boundries and free will would not be possible. Using this definition, at this current time, the God of the Bible isn't infinite. He has defined Himself by giving us His wants and desires in the form of commandments for us to follow. This is part of the sacrifice that He has made for us, part of the reason that He is so deserving of our love and devotion. In order for us to be the way we are, God had to limit Himself, had to create two possible sources for everything. God and not-God. You can't have a choice without the existance of two different outcomes.

God has no creator because he is only limited by His own choice and He is only limited when it comes to us. He has given us authority to rule our own lives and a vital part of a Christian's walk is laying this authority back at the feet of Him. This period of God's "limitedness" is a very brief period. There is coming a time when God will take back his infinite state and to do this the boundries will be abolished. This is the fate of everything that is not-God. This is what Jesus warns about so much.

"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 13:49-50 (NIV)

The Bible teaches that everyone will live forever, and this is because of that part of us that is God (our soul, the Breath). The weeping in the above verse is sorrow and the gnashing of teeth is pain (mental/physical) and regret. When the boundries are erased and people are fully cut off from God, even those who claim they don't want anything to do with Him will realize just how precious that part of Him was.


doktorhook
QUOTE (Llucid @ Jan 29 2008, 01:04 AM) *
You are exactly right. An infinite God couldn't have boundries and free will would not be possible. Using this definition, at this current time, the God of the Bible isn't infinite.He has defined Himself by giving us His wants and desires in the form of commandments for us to follow. This is part of the sacrifice that He has made for us, part of the reason that He is so deserving of our love and devotion. In order for us to be the way we are, God had to limit Himself, had to create two possible sources for everything. God and not-God. You can't have a choice without the existance of two different outcomes.


I guess this means that your initial response "yes he is infinite" is mistaken then?


QUOTE
God has no creator because he is only limited by His own choice and He is only limited when it comes to us. He has given us authority to rule our own lives and a vital part of a Christian's walk is laying this authority back at the feet of Him. This period of God's "limitedness" is a very brief period. There is coming a time when God will take back his infinite state and to do this the boundries will be abolished. This is the fate of everything that is not-God. This is what Jesus warns about so much.


Here you seem to confuse matters because again you say he is infinite when very clearly before you said god was not. God is either all pervasive or it is not. It cannot be both. So please tell me then if god is infinite or not in your belief.

QUOTE
"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matthew 13:49-50 (NIV)

The Bible teaches that everyone will live forever, and this is because of that part of us that is God (our soul, the Breath). The weeping in the above verse is sorrow and the gnashing of teeth is pain (mental/physical) and regret. When the boundries are erased and people are fully cut off from God, even those who claim they don't want anything to do with Him will realize just how precious that part of Him was.


Again here you basicly say that the unrepentent sinner will be cut off from god, indicating that it is not all infinite or all pervasive. You seem to be going back & forth now too god is infinite sometimes & not infinte others. If god is infinite there can't be any boundaries whatsoever otherwise it is not infinite.

Llucid
QUOTE (doktorhook @ Jan 29 2008, 05:22 AM) *
I guess this means that your initial response "yes he is infinite" is mistaken then?


I never said that God was infinite. You have mistaken me for Apostle maybe?


QUOTE (doktorhook @ Jan 27 2008, 05:13 PM) *
Sorry for not replying sooner. This brings up an interesting quandry then if god is infinite. In a nutshell it means that there is nothing in the universe that is not god. From the tiniest particle of an atom to the universe itself & everything in between, it must by definition all be god if god is infinite. That means you & I & everyone & everything is in someway, god!


What I did do was agree with this response about the implications of an infinite God, adding "Unfortunately, we can't forget about sin.... sin is not-God". I figured that the "unfortunately", and also my responses about God defining Himself, was showing that I wasn't agreeing with the statement "God is infinite". According to the Bible, He isn't, not at the present time, not while we have a choice in our own future. I'm sorry if I was unclear. I'm not trying to be difficult, honest.


QUOTE (doktorhook @ Jan 29 2008, 05:22 AM) *
Here you seem to confuse matters because again you say he is infinite when very clearly before you said god was not. God is either all pervasive or it is not. It cannot be both. So please tell me then if god is infinite or not in your belief.

Again here you basicly say that the unrepentent sinner will be cut off from god, indicating that it is not all infinite or all pervasive. You seem to be going back & forth now too god is infinite sometimes & not infinte others. If god is infinite there can't be any boundaries whatsoever otherwise it is not infinite.


Again, I don't mean to be confusing. Let me try to sum it up in one statement:

God, by nature, is infinite. He took this state of being and laid it down, giving power to us, thus creating free will. By doing this He limited Himself (for a time) because He loves us. He will one day take back up this mantle.

The Red Pill
QUOTE (kaiboijin @ Jan 16 2008, 07:22 AM) *
The First Commandment says "Thou shalt have no other god before me." Does that mean there really are other deities out there, but we're suppose to put Him first?

Also, is there really magic? When Moses and Joshua were trying to get their people out of Egypt, they had to use a lot of miracles from God such as turning water into blood and turning a rod into a snake. However, it also says that the pharaoh was able to have his "magicians" produce similar results. I understand that the term "magician" could have been used loosely to include primitive chemists and whatnot, but is it possible that they were really able to use magic?

It is the power of divinity. You see, they are authorized by God to use divine powers, but when people go to the book store, get a black magic or conjuring book, it is way far off the mark. not only is it unauthorized by the eyes of god, but it is not gods power that they are using.
seanph
QUOTE
Good afternoon my friend!.


And to you me pal! original.gif

QUOTE
I also agree that there are apparent contradictions in the gospels. They seem to disagree the most, in the most important part of the whole story (the tomb!). Now, there is a creed that is dated around 24-36 months after the supposed death of Jesus and this is stated in Corinthians, I believe. This creed takes us back to around the time of Jesus death. This creed was in regards to his death and resurrection. Now the problems that arise are this: Paul doesnt say hardly anything about what is in the gospels. He doesnt even acknowledge a tomb (though many imply and ask why would this be necessary) but he does acknowledge his death and resurrection.


I agree with you, Hairston. There is little question that the death, body controversy and resurrection events go back to the disciples. Of course, and as you mentioned, trying to determine exactly what happened is the problem.

Corinthians ... Of this I cannot be sure. For this epistle was not written until the mid 50s CE.

QUOTE
So we do have some attestation of belief within a couple years of the supposed resurrection account. Though this is assuring for the christian, it opens the door to interpolations in the later gospels. They are much later, they have known interpolations, and it is possible that there may have been one or 2 sources that the gospels were copied off of. An example: One of the gospels seem to mention "blessed are the poor", while the other says "blessed are the poor in spirit". These are 2 different things and Im willing to say that each writer MAY have just cut and edited those words to fit a theological agenda...one in regards to the poor and one in regards to the spiritually poor. I believe we have good evidence that there was a Jesus, there was a death on a cross, a tomb, and that there were "appearances" that the disciples and paul attested to seeing. Whether these were real appearances, I dont know and I dont think its possible to know for a fact. I dont think the gospels can be considered completely historical (though i believe there is SOME historicity to the accounts) but this does not rule out the possibility that it happened. I dont consider it illogical for christians to believe that it happened.

Kindly,

Hairston


Well said. Agreed. yes.gif

Most kindly,

Sean
hairston630
QUOTE (seanph @ Jan 29 2008, 02:33 PM) *
Corinthians ... Of this I cannot be sure. For this epistle was not written until the mid 50s CE.


Morning Sean!. I Cor. 15:3ff was the verse. Most critics who have studied this material have dated it to the 30s A.D. and, further, think that Paul received it from the apostles themselves, probably (this means we do not fully know) Peter and James. (Creel, p. 70.).

These were creeds that were in oral circulation prior to the writings of the 1 Corinthians. That is how we come up with the dating. I believe that Crossan agrees with these dates as well.

John Dominic Crossan and Jonathan L. Reed, In Search of Paul (San Francisco: Harper Collins, 2004), 6-8, 341


Your friend!,

Hairston
fullywired
QUOTE (hairston630 @ Jan 29 2008, 02:54 PM) *
Morning Sean!. I Cor. 15:3ff was the verse. Most critics who have studied this material have dated it to the 30s A.D. and, further, think that Paul received it from the apostles themselves, probably (this means we do not fully know) Peter and James. (Creel, p. 70.).

These were creeds that were in oral circulation prior to the writings of the 1 Corinthians. That is how we come up with the dating. I believe that Crossan agrees with these dates as well.

John Dominic Crossan and Jonathan L. Reed, In Search of Paul (San Francisco: Harper Collins, 2004), 6-8, 341


Your friend!,

Hairston





What's the game Hairston ,we have PA claiming 40AD now you knocking another decade off and makin it 30 AD ,If you keep this up you will have Paul climbing the cross and taking dictation next

fullywired ohmy.gif
doktorhook
QUOTE (Llucid @ Jan 29 2008, 07:08 AM) *
I never said that God was infinite. You have mistaken me for Apostle maybe?


Yep you're right, it was apostle. My apologies




QUOTE
What I did do was agree with this response about the implications of an infinite God, adding "Unfortunately, we can't forget about sin.... sin is not-God". I figured that the "unfortunately", and also my responses about God defining Himself, was showing that I wasn't agreeing with the statement "God is infinite". According to the Bible, He isn't, not at the present time, not while we have a choice in our own future. I'm sorry if I was unclear. I'm not trying to be difficult, honest.


I understand however you are still saying that at one time god was infinite & then chose to restrict itself by becoming finite & then will return to an infinite state. The problems presented by this line of reasoning is that teh infinite cannot become finite. Even if it were to restrict itself in some manner, it's basic infinite nature would still mean that everything IS god. As examples, heaven would be an aspect of god, hell would be an aspect of god, hatred, love, murder, sustanence, life, death, etc., etc.. That's what it means when "all things serve the will of god". Now if god is BOTH infinite & finite simultaneously, that would point to a paradox which I have no quarrel with because a paradox is the closest concept humans can achieve to the concept of infnite. This however still means that even if the universe we percieve is a somehow veiled & loosely defined aspect of god, it is still god & therefore incorruptible from any standpoint, including sin because of it's infinite nature.




QUOTE
Again, I don't mean to be confusing. Let me try to sum it up in one statement:

God, by nature, is infinite. He took this state of being and laid it down, giving power to us, thus creating free will. By doing this He limited Himself (for a time) because He loves us. He will one day take back up this mantle.


No problem I understand you're trying to explain your point of view. I'm just trying to explain mine as well. See an infinite god would mean that you & I & everyone else IS god as well. Theres actually some basis for this belief in the bible itself. If you take the the name of god YHVH, in hebrew & write it verticaly from top to bottom, the name of god looks just like a stick figure of a man.See for yourself

hairston630
QUOTE (fullywired @ Jan 29 2008, 06:19 PM) *
What's the game Hairston ,we have PA claiming 40AD now you knocking another decade off and makin it 30 AD ,If you keep this up you will have Paul climbing the cross and taking dictation next

fullywired ohmy.gif


I am not relying upon what someone else in the forum is talking about. If this is in regards to the creedal passages then I stand 100% firm on the fact that this creedal passage dates back to within 24-36 months of Jesus. Crossan (no friend to evangelicals) see's the same thing. I hope we are talking about the same thing here. Im not even sure what PA'S "ad 40 date" is in regards to in the first place as I havent read through this thread.

Hairston
fullywired
QUOTE (hairston630 @ Jan 29 2008, 06:51 PM) *
I am not relying upon what someone else in the forum is talking about. If this is in regards to the creedal passages then I stand 100% firm on the fact that this creedal passage dates back to within 24-36 months of Jesus. Crossan (no friend to evangelicals) see's the same thing. I hope we are talking about the same thing here. Im not even sure what PA'S "ad 40 date" is in regards to in the first place as I havent read through this thread.

Hairston



<h1 class="firstHeading">
</h1>
Your right I don't think we are talking of the same thing.What's the link to Crossans piece?


fullywired
Paranoid Android
I'm not sure I ever used "40 AD" in any context, within this thread or otherwise. Certainly not referring to the book of 1 Corinthians, which I don't know exactly when it was written, though I know it was much earlier than the gospels (as was most of the other New Testament writings).
Apostle
QUOTE (Llucid @ Jan 26 2008, 03:36 AM) *
I have a question. Jesus prophecied (or the scriptures claimed that Jesus prophecied, for those who are skeptical) that the Temple would be destroyed:

"Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 'As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.'" - Luke 21:5-6 (NIV)

This prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. The Romans set fire to the Temple, a fire which melted the gold that lined the walls of the holy chambers. Afterwards, the Romans had to tear apart the ruins brick by brick to salvage all the gold that had seeped between the cracks.

If there is one thing that the authors of the Bible loved to do it was to show fulfilled prophecy. Scripture states that true prophecy (tellings of future events that later become fulfilled) is from God and those who penned the scriptures are very quick to point these events out whenever they can, to add weight and divine authority to their claims.

Now, if the gospels were written/altered after the Temple was destroyed, then why don't they mention it? Something that big would certainly have made it into the New Testament's pages, as it was a very detailed prophecy that was fulfilled to the letter concerning the Jewish people's most holy site.

Hello Llucid,

You say that the authors of the Bible loved to show fulfilled prophecy. I can see why you would say this when talking about Jesus. For example, Matthew 13:14 "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not perceive:" This is talking about Jesus speaking in parables and people not understanding what he says. It was just a clue to point out to people that he was the promised Messiah.

I don't think we're exactly sure if the Gospels were written before or after the temple was destroyed, according to your date. If the Gospels were written before the temple was destroyed then obviously it couldn't have been put in there. However, even if the Gospels were written after the temple was destroyed, I don't think they would have been included in the Gospels. The Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) are accounts of Jesus' life, death, resurrection, and ascent. So, if it happened after Jesus, then I would say it wouldn't have been included in the Gospels.
Lt_Ripley
and I'll say this again about the saying ' oral tradition'


put 100 people in a line and whisper the first one a short story.......... have them pass it down ...............by the time it got to the 100th it would be a great bet alot of it had changed. ( this would only take about an hour ?)

now multiply that by 100 years............ you wouldn't recognize the truth. probably just the names and places if lucky.


- the fact they didn't concider jesus .if he existed . divine untl 350+ years later should be a clue - a real big one.
sandee
QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Jan 29 2008, 10:55 PM) *
and I'll say this again about the saying ' oral tradition'


put 100 people in a line and whisper the first one a short story.......... have them pass it down ...............by the time it got to the 100th it would be a great bet alot of it had changed. ( this would only take about an hour ?)

now multiply that by 100 years............ you wouldn't recognize the truth. probably just the names and places if lucky.

You do have a point, But most of the bible is written instead of passed down so that the story can and will change. I believe the gospels are true as they can be and they are written accounts not really hear say. If I told you a story and you wrote it down then it is documented now if you passed the story down well like you say it will be distorted to the end. Always a pleasure
And thank you, cool.gif
Paranoid Android
QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Jan 30 2008, 02:55 PM) *
and I'll say this again about the saying ' oral tradition'


put 100 people in a line and whisper the first one a short story.......... have them pass it down ...............by the time it got to the 100th it would be a great bet alot of it had changed. ( this would only take about an hour ?)

now multiply that by 100 years............ you wouldn't recognize the truth. probably just the names and places if lucky.


- the fact they didn't concider jesus .if he existed . divine untl 350+ years later should be a clue - a real big one.
But oral tradition has never been as casual as Chinese Whispers. The idea of lining 100 people up and whispering in secret the one story only once (usually a tongue twister or something with many difficult elements to remember, just for fun) is just not accurate. Oral tradition was more along the lines of 1 person proclaiming loudly to everyone in the room a story that they have all heard thousands of times, often word-for-word. Then over the course of years, the storyteller trains up an apprentice or ten to learn the stories and share them in the same manner, who them go and do the same. And all the while everyone is listening to these stories and knows when something has been changed and challenges/questions it along with everyone else who does the same. So if we do think of this in terms of 100 people in a room, it would be like the first person exclaiming loudly to everyone the story over and over again, and then going aside and teaching one person the stories to share. Then once they know it word-for-word, they then stand up and proclaim loudly to everyone also, who has heard it dozens of times and screams loudly if they make a mistake. If they don't have the memory capabilities to learn all the story, their apprenticeship as storyteller is finished and the next person comes up. Repeat this process for all 100 people. Ask yourself how similar the stories would be at the end of those 100?

Oral tradition is not whispering the story from one person to the next in the space of an hour. It takes years, with people listening to the same stories every single evening of the entirety of their lives.

Just a few thoughts to consider.

~ Regards, PA
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE (Paranoid Android @ Jan 29 2008, 11:23 PM) *
But oral tradition has never been as casual as Chinese Whispers. The idea of lining 100 people up and whispering in secret the one story only once (usually a tongue twister or something with many difficult elements to remember, just for fun) is just not accurate. Oral tradition was more along the lines of 1 person proclaiming loudly to everyone in the room a story that they have all heard thousands of times, often word-for-word. Then over the course of years, the storyteller trains up an apprentice or ten to learn the stories and share them in the same manner, who them go and do the same. And all the while everyone is listening to these stories and knows when something has been changed and challenges/questions it along with everyone else who does the same. So if we do think of this in terms of 100 people in a room, it would be like the first person exclaiming loudly to everyone the story over and over again, and then going aside and teaching one person the stories to share. Then once they know it word-for-word, they then stand up and proclaim loudly to everyone also, who has heard it dozens of times and screams loudly if they make a mistake. If they don't have the memory capabilities to learn all the story, their apprenticeship as storyteller is finished and the next person comes up. Repeat this process for all 100 people. Ask yourself how similar the stories would be at the end of those 100?

Oral tradition is not whispering the story from one person to the next in the space of an hour. It takes years, with people listening to the same stories every single evening of the entirety of their lives.

Just a few thoughts to consider.

~ Regards, PA


the thing is wether 1 too a group of 100 at the same time or in a line - each changes it. no one hears the same thing in a speech. and after 100 years the original speech is pretty much lost.
Paranoid Android
QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Jan 30 2008, 03:26 PM) *
the thing is wether 1 too a group of 100 at the same time or in a line - each changes it. no one hears the same thing in a speech. and after 100 years the original speech is pretty much lost.
Oh, I see. You are talking about the speeches and conversations of jesus that are given in the gospels. Sorry, you used the phrase "oral tradition" and this threw me off. This is not oral tradition. Oral tradition is the ac t of passing down folk tales and stories from one generation to the next. This is different. From the point of view of the conversations in the gospel, I can see where you are coming from. In defense, I would make three comments, if you don't mind:

First, you are assuming that the speech is only heard once and then never heard again - the Bible does not support this view. The Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) has a similar speech/sermon given in Luke, but this is on a plain/field. From this, I get the idea that Jesus had a series of sermons that he continually reused for different areas. I would suggest that the speeches and sermons that are given in the gospels had been heard over and over by the disciples because they followed everywhere Jesus went, but the crowds heard it for the first time because they were all locals (this is similar even in the modern world - I have not yet met a preacher who does not have a "favourite" sermon or two that he has tucked away at a pinch to bring out at need).

Second, you use the number of 100 years as if it is of some special significance, and speak of passing the story on from one person to the next for 100 people. This is not accurate since: 1- there was not 100 years between Jesus' death and the gospels (40, at most for Mark, slightly longer for Matthew and Luke), and 2- the writers of the gospels claim to have actually been there, so the act of Chinese Whispers could not have happened.

Third, see "second" tongue.gif

~ Regards, PA
seanph
QUOTE
Morning Sean!. I Cor. 15:3ff was the verse. Most critics who have studied this material have dated it to the 30s A.D. and, further, think that Paul received it from the apostles themselves, probably (this means we do not fully know) Peter and James. (Creel, p. 70.).

These were creeds that were in oral circulation prior to the writings of the 1 Corinthians. That is how we come up with the dating. I believe that Crossan agrees with these dates as well.

John Dominic Crossan and Jonathan L. Reed, In Search of Paul (San Francisco: Harper Collins, 2004), 6-8, 341


Your friend!,

Hairston


Morning good sir! original.gif I'm a big fan of Crossan and Reed (although his comment regarding the Talpiot Tomb was IMHO completely irresponsible and moronic)--and have this text. However I do have a problem with their conclusions here. First, dating said passage to the early 30's is problematic, for Paul's conversion did not occur until the mid-to-late 30's (Harnack) depending on the date of jesus' death (30-33). And then he did not go to Jerusalem for another three years--and this story differs from Acts and the Epistles. So at minimum the Cor. passage could not be dated until the late 30's to early 40's. Second, Paul states that the gospel he received was "from no man" and that he learned "nothing of worth" from the disciples. This leads me to believe said passage did not originate (at least Jesus as a sin sacrifice) with the disciples, but from his own revelations (gospel) granted to him by the risen Jesus--one he declared superior to all others.

And then I could be completely wrong on both issues! yes.gif grin2.gif

Kindly,

Sean
Lt_Ripley
QUOTE (Paranoid Android @ Jan 30 2008, 08:59 AM) *
Oh, I see. You are talking about the speeches and conversations of jesus that are given in the gospels. Sorry, you used the phrase "oral tradition" and this threw me off. This is not oral tradition. Oral tradition is the ac t of passing down folk tales and stories from one generation to the next. This is different. From the point of view of the conversations in the gospel, I can see where you are coming from. In defense, I would make three comments, if you don't mind:

First, you are assuming that the speech is only heard once and then never heard again* - the Bible does not support this view. The Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) has a similar speech/sermon given in Luke, but this is on a plain/field. From this, I get the idea that Jesus had a series of sermons that he continually reused for different areas. I would suggest that the speeches and sermons that are given in the gospels had been heard over and over by the disciples because they followed everywhere Jesus went, but the crowds heard it for the first time because they were all locals (this is similar even in the modern world - I have not yet met a preacher who does not have a "favourite" sermon or two that he has tucked away at a pinch to bring out at need).

Second, you use the number of 100 years as if it is of some special significance, and speak of passing the story on from one person to the next for 100 people. This is not accurate since: 1- there was not 100 years between Jesus' death and the gospels (40, at most for Mark, slightly longer for Matthew and Luke), and 2- the writers of the gospels claim to have actually been there, so the act of Chinese Whispers could not have happened.
Third, see "second" tongue.gif

~ Regards, PA

as for the writers of the Gospels actually having been there ? I don't know of any scholar who actually believes that . since none were written during the time that Jesus supposedly lived. and the fact that the gospels themselves don't agree is proof that oral tradition changes. And the fact that our memories change even over short periods of time !!!!

example - you and a friend witness and accident. you both tell your version to the police within say 30 minutes.. never will both be exact. one will have more detail or different views. and in that sense there is no way anyone from relating a story of jesus' life ( if infact he existed) could have gotten it right. It doesn't follow common sense. 100 years , 10 years or 10 days ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, there is no way what we are reading is what happened. not with all the influences even of politics and culture at the time. example - Lizzy Borden supposedly killed her parents about 100 years ago - every one knows the basic story. Now let's say someone wants to write a book about it with nothing but oral resources. How would you relate now to the politics and legal system of the era ? pretty different from our own in some respects.but would you know enough to write a book ?
now lets pretend behind your writing is contempt for legal system that tried to find her guilty ( kinda like the jews and christians had towards the romans) would that color the book ?

I mean they didn't concider Jesus divine until 350 + years later.

people add to traditions oral and otherwise. there is no way that they were the same from the time of Jesus till the time they were written.

Even traditions that Jews have been doing during holidays has gone through changes . heck in each family things can be a bit different. The same in any religion. Being raised in an Orthodox catholic household I was amazed at some of the things we did differently than 'regular' christians over things like xmas and even different from other Orthodox catholics . Some celebrated little Christmas , some didn't. some passed platka some didn't. I bet it's gone through a ton of changes in it's existence.


the fact is it doesn't matter if I whisper a story to someone and have them pass it on or a crowd hears a speech where most relay it and change it to fit their own lives ( like we do when hearing a political speech ) or the speaker giving the speech putting in their own agenda ( all do , then and now) the fact is if we could go back in time and actually watch the life of Jesus ( if he existed) and compare it to the bible ---- it would be vastly different.
Even people who write biographies of contemporaries now don't get it right , put in their own agenda.... even auto biographies are never the whole truth.

And as for the earlies Gospel being 40 years after the death. 1. not all , or the majority agree it was over 40 . some think it was as far as 70. and 2. 40 - 70 . that's still along time to haze a story.


* no I'm not assuming it was only heard once . and there is no way it wasn't changed. even in one telling. even the next night !!!!! let alone a few decades written later.
hairston630
QUOTE (seanph @ Jan 30 2008, 05:14 PM) *
Morning good sir! original.gif I'm a big fan of Crossan and Reed (although his comment regarding the Talpiot Tomb was IMHO completely irresponsible and moronic)--and have this text. However I do have a problem with their conclusions here. First, dating said passage to the early 30's is problematic, for Paul's conversion did not occur until the mid-to-late 30's (Harnack) depending on the date of jesus' death (30-33). And then he did not go to Jerusalem for another three years--and this story differs from Acts and the Epistles. So at minimum the Cor. passage could not be dated until the late 30's to early 40's. Second, Paul states that the gospel he received was "from no man" and that he learned "nothing of worth" from the disciples. This leads me to believe said passage did not originate (at least Jesus as a sin sacrifice) with the disciples, but from his own revelations (gospel) granted to him by the risen Jesus--one he declared superior to all others.

And then I could be completely wrong on both issues! yes.gif grin2.gif

Kindly,

Sean


Afternoon Sean! original.gif

There is another passage I believe in galations? that says that he DID receive this information from others. This is where we have a possible post pauline interpolation (1 or the other). This would justify the idea (paul received it from someone else) that the creed was in circulation around 36 months after Jesus death. Here is where most of the disagreements arise....Either we have an interpolation stating that Paul received this from Jesus himself or that he received it from someone else. That is one argument. The other argument is that Paul went away to be with the Lord, He then came back into town to verify that the gospel he received was true and accurate (which those that seen it agreed that it was accurate..they added nothing to him) and was presented with a very possible formalized statement of that same gospel very similar to what he received from the Lord. This is the view of alot of critical scholars but Robert Price seems to be one of the few that thinks its a post pauline interpolation. Im not taking a position on this one as I havent really studied it enough..plus I feel that its so up for grabs that you have to pick a side. I do have a good debate audio of Habermas, Mike Licona and Robert Price in regards to this specific creed and their views on the subject. If you would like I can send you the link to it so you can listen for yourself.

Your friend,

Hairston
OMSHANTI
QUOTE (Apostle @ Jan 16 2008, 12:33 PM) *
I've noticed that many people who are "Christians" have many misunderstandings of the Bible. If you are a Christian then one of your basics beliefs should be that the Bible is the Word of God. So, on this thread I will take any questions from anyone (Christian or other) to help those who may have been misinformed or just want more of an understanding. I'll do my best to answer them thoroughly and accurately. Objections are also welcome, anything really about the Bible.
~Apostle


Hi I have some questions that have always bugged me. I'll just let them tumble out as they may;

Many many written records from Roman times exist, but none offer Historical proof of the existence of Jesus. Is there ANY historical proof that he existed?

Jesus' disiples were ordinary people, fishermen etc. , so is it plausible to think they were literate?

If they were literate, then wouldnt they write in their own language, Aramaic wasn't it?

Weren't the gospels originally written in Greek? How would ordinary fishermen etc. Know Greek?

Why is the Bible reffered to as "the word of god" ? He didnt write it, or dictate any part of it did he? There were no Scribes following him to record his teachings were there?

Why wait at least 40 years until after the fact to record something that is supposed to be SO important? They must have had great recall to be able to quote Jesus after 40 years?

Why do Christians think that what Jesus said was for "all" people for all future times? For example, Wasn't he just talking to his disciples when he told them to " GO ye therefore and teach all nations"?

Paul never met Jesus, so why give any merit to his writings?

Thats it for now. Looking forward to your reply so I can lay these things to rest in my mind, or at least cast some light on them!

norwood1026
The bible is exactly a collection of stories that started out as a oral tradition some 2,000 years ago there were very few people who could read & write. I highly doubt that all of these prophets could all read let alone write. I’m think that more then likely they told someone else what to write & IF that was the case I’m sure that everything didn’t get wrote down accurately even if they wrote it themselves.

I’m sure that people who go by oral traditions they too have been changed over the years as well. Again I use Witches as an example because they oral tradation was used to keep people from finding out there secrets. Over the years they have created a book of shadows ( BOS) to pass these secrets down from one generation to the next. The Druids are still big on oral traditions even to this day & again it’s the same reason that Witches believed in oral teachings.

I’ve stated this before just because it is not written down does not make it any less true then what is written down.

Look at it this was anything that is written down on paper or in a book can be destoyed & forgotten can you say the same for oral tradations?
MUM24/7
QUOTE (Paranoid Android @ Jan 29 2008, 12:33 AM) *
Quite good, actually. If you note his response to that, he agreed with me and thanked me for showing him information that was lacking in his own understanding of scripture. So no, it's not quite as simple as personal and individual interpretation. His interpretation was plain wrong, and when shown the evidence he agreed and apologised for bringing up false information into the thread.

That's not to say though that I am always right, nor is it meant to imply that my knowledge is greater than anyone else's. I'm likely to be wrong at times also. But just because there is the chance that we will get things wrong from time to time does not mean that we should not try, right?

~ PA


PA, yes he eventually changed his mind and came in line with your interpretation BUT this is after having crossed paths with you on UM and him participating in this thread.......Up until this point, he was merrily going on his way thinking his interpretation was right, so in fact if you two hadn't 'met' through this forum, his opinion wouldn't have changed......

Imagine how many Christians are at this moment, going on their merry way thinking their interpretations of the passages are correct ?? How do we know who is right and who's interpretation is the correct one ?? I still stand by my original statement that ,'If you two Christians can't agree on the meanings in the Bible, what chance do we have ??'

greggK
The Bible is not passed down through oral traditions. It is a collection of artifacts and scratches on walls and letters on rocks and some egyptians telling you what these things mean. The New Testament is made up from letter fragments that have been matched up together to tell a story. Yes, these things are hard to believe. But it is the only record that we possess of the origins of mankind. No other book contains what the bible does.
Paranoid Android
QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Jan 31 2008, 05:16 AM) *
as for the writers of the Gospels actually having been there ? I don't know of any scholar who actually believes that . since none were written during the time that Jesus supposedly lived. and the fact that the gospels themselves don't agree is proof that oral tradition changes. And the fact that our memories change even over short periods of time !!!!
I do, but you won't agree with them - they're Chrisitans. But yes, the gospels do have differences - that's because they were different points of view. That's just more proof that the event actually happened (slight differences in the story are evidence that the event did happen, rather than a story made up - if they were exactly the same it would be evidence of collusion)

QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Jan 31 2008, 05:16 AM) *
example - you and a friend witness and accident. you both tell your version to the police within say 30 minutes.. never will both be exact. one will have more detail or different views. and in that sense there is no way anyone from relating a story of jesus' life ( if infact he existed) could have gotten it right. It doesn't follow common sense. 100 years , 10 years or 10 days ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, there is no way what we are reading is what happened. not with all the influences even of politics and culture at the time. example - Lizzy Borden supposedly killed her parents about 100 years ago - every one knows the basic story. Now let's say someone wants to write a book about it with nothing but oral resources. How would you relate now to the politics and legal system of the era ? pretty different from our own in some respects.but would you know enough to write a book ?
now lets pretend behind your writing is contempt for legal system that tried to find her guilty ( kinda like the jews and christians had towards the romans) would that color the book ?
Of course it would change the tone of the book. But would it change the events that happened?

QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Jan 31 2008, 05:16 AM) *
I mean they didn't concider Jesus divine until 350 + years later.
Not true, you are just assuming that because of the vote at Nicaea. I think that vote was simply to confirm what everyone believed rather than an actual decision to change what everyone thought (the final vote was 298-2 for the divinity of Jesus, that tells me that everyone already believed it to be true and just confirmed it).

QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Jan 31 2008, 05:16 AM) *
the fact is it doesn't matter if I whisper a story to someone and have them pass it on or a crowd hears a speech where most relay it and change it to fit their own lives ( like we do when hearing a political speech ) or the speaker giving the speech putting in their own agenda ( all do , then and now) the fact is if we could go back in time and actually watch the life of Jesus ( if he existed) and compare it to the bible ---- it would be vastly different.
Even people who write biographies of contemporaries now don't get it right , put in their own agenda.... even auto biographies are never the whole truth.
But do they contain enough of the truth to be considered accurate? That is the big question, is it not. I personally believe that they do, in fact that the gospels are extremely accurate. We're moving into hypotheticals here, but what if God blessed the writers with the memory to write what really happened? I believe that the gospels are true, and I believe that the message contained within them is too important for God to allow it to be corrupted by men's writings (despite the fact that men have tried to corrupt it, we have enough of the texts to know when this is done and point to it as an obvious change or addition). I know that this isn't exactly an ideal argument that is fool-proof, it may very well even be circular. But I believe that the gospels contain enough truth to be sure that Jesus is who it was claimed he is.

QUOTE (Lt_Ripley @ Jan 31 2008, 05:16 AM) *
And as for the earlies Gospel being 40 years after the death. 1. not all , or the majority agree it was over 40 . some think it was as far as 70. and 2. 40 - 70 . that's still along time to haze a story.
The general consensus is that Mark was written approximately 70 AD (40 years after Jesus' death). Some actually claim it to be 50 AD even (though I don't necessarily agree with such conservative dating). If some think it was as far as 70 years after Jesus' death, that puts Mark at 100 AD. I would very much like to see the scholarship they used to reach this conclusion, because this is certainly as liberal as the 50 AD is conservative, imho.

~ Regards, PA
Paranoid Android
QUOTE (MUM24/7 @ Jan 31 2008, 09:38 AM) *
PA, yes he eventually changed his mind and came in line with your interpretation BUT this is after having crossed paths with you on UM and him participating in this thread.......Up until this point, he was merrily going on his way thinking his interpretation was right, so in fact if you two hadn't 'met' through this forum, his opinion wouldn't have changed......

Imagine how many Christians are at this moment, going on their merry way thinking their interpretations of the passages are correct ?? How do we know who is right and who's interpretation is the correct one ?? I still stand by my original statement that ,'If you two Christians can't agree on the meanings in the Bible, what chance do we have ??'
So because some Chrisitans are more knowledgeable than others means that we should just not even bother with understanding it? Sorry, MUM24/7, your reasoning is illogical. I enjoy Shakespeare, but my knowledge of Shakespeare will not be as good as someone who has studied European Theatre, and even then two scholars won't agree on Shakespeare (and this is written in English!!!!). Does that mean I should just not care or not even try to understand Shakespeare because scholars won't even agree? I understand Shakespeare well enough to understand his meaning and see some of the metaphors, I probably understand Shakespeare well enough to teach some of his plays in a High School Drama classroom (though i probably couldn't teach it in an English class, due to the different emphases). But I don't know it that well, and certainly not well enough to compete with the scholars. Yet according to your reasoning, I should just not bother because after all...... "if two scholars can't agree on the meaning of Shakespeare, what chance do we have"?

Just because Christians don't know everything, and just because two different Christians who have different levels of knowledge have different answers (one of which is correct) does not mean that no one has a hope of understanding it. It is true that you may not be able to understand the Bible to the extent that some others do, but that does not mean that you cannot understand it at all, and it certainly does not mean it is an excuse to not even try. Right?

~ Regards, PA
norwood1026
QUOTE (greggK @ Jan 31 2008, 03:08 AM) *
The Bible is not passed down through oral traditions. It is a collection of artifacts and scratches on walls and letters on rocks and some egyptians telling you what these things mean. The New Testament is made up from letter fragments that have been matched up together to tell a story. Yes, these things are hard to believe. But it is the only record that we possess of the origins of mankind. No other book contains what the bible does.




What do Egyptians have to do with the bible? They were Pagans Um.. Sorry mankind is older then 6,000 years old.
seanph
Good morning me pal. original.gif

QUOTE
There is another passage I believe in galations? that says that he DID receive this information from others. This is where we have a possible post pauline interpolation (1 or the other). This would justify the idea (paul received it from someone else) that the creed was in circulation around 36 months after Jesus death. Here is where most of the disagreements arise....Either we have an interpolation stating that Paul received this from Jesus himself or that he received it from someone else. That is one argument. The other argument is that Paul went away to be with the Lord, He then came back into town to verify that the gospel he received was true and accurate (which those that seen it agreed that it was accurate..they added nothing to him) and was presented with a very possible formalized statement of that same gospel very similar to what he received from the Lord.


Well, Paul states that everything he received was from the risen Jesus:

Gal. 1:11-12 he declares:

I want you to realize, brothers, that the gospel which I preach is not a human gospel, for I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Then further in verses 15-16 he says:

But when the one who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult with any human being.


As for verifying his gospel ... His [Paul] arrival on the scene, with a gospel that he claimed superior to that of the Disciples, caused a real bone of contention between the two camps. In fact, his message could easily be called heretical--and was. The Ebionites despised Paul, calling him an "apostate of the Law". The Diaspora Jews did the same--nearly beat him to a pulp! And the original Disciples had a serious problem with him as well, for he preached abrogation of the Law (no circumcision, eating with gentiles et al) and broke Jesus' commandments in Matthew 5:17-20. Also, his personal theology (Galatians 2:2), ruffled the feather of the pillars (James, Peter, John) of the Jesus movement. In fact, and as you well know, they [pillars] called Paul to Jerusalem to answer various charges. The "Jerusalem Council" came to a tenuous agreement regarding the gentile issue, yes, but one that did not last.

Paul ...

1) Paul claims that his Gospel is from the risen Jesus and not from men--including the Disciples:

Galatians 1:16-19 I did not confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas [Peter], and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.

Galatians 1:11 The good news I preach is not a human message that I was given by men, it is something I learnt only through a revelation of Jesus Christ.


2) Paul goes to Jerusalem not for another fourteen years and spends time with some of the Disciples and claims he learned nothing of worth from them:

Galatians 2:6 As for those who seemed to be important—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance—those men added nothing to my message.

3) Paul claims his Gospel is the true Gospel, and that anyone who preaches otherwise are accursed, deceivers and liars:

Gal 1:6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are confusing you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, so now I repeat, if anyone proclaims to you a gospel contrary [Galatians 1:11] (my emphasis) to what you received, let that one be accursed!

Paul, a zealot if there ever was one, obviously had a theophany (out of profound guilt?). But his Gospel did not originate, at least IMHO, nor was it accepted, by the Disciples. Paul states this himself.

The "Jerusalem Council"
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/jerucouncil.html

The Incident at Antioch
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/antioch.html

Contradictions Between Paul's and Jesus' Teachings
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/paultheology.html#contra

And it is even possible that the Disciples sent out missionaries to counter Paul's teachings. He makes reference to the "Super Apostles" and their false teachings. Are the SP's the original disciples? It seems to me a resounding yes.

2 Corinthians 11 (New International Version) 1I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.

2 Corinthians 12:11 (New International Version) 11I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the "super-apostles," even though I am nothing.

Again, this is almost certainly in reference to the original disciples.

An excellent article that tackles this/numerous problems with Paul is by Tabor, who is writing a book on where Paul received his authority.

Where Did the Apostle Paul Get His Authority?

... For example, in 1 Corinthians 15 one of the most important chapters for Christian faith in the entire New Testament, Paul writes that he has “received” and then “passed on” (paradidomai) the teaching of that “Christ” (notice he does not say “Jesus”) died for sins, was buried, and was raised the “third day,” and then was seen by various ones–Peter, the Twelve, 500 brothers at once, James (Jesus’ brother), and all the apostles. Most have assumed this means Paul “received” this by some kind of testimony, as if he was told it on a human level, perhaps directly by Peter, or James, or some of the Twelve. That would indeed be a natural and potentially logical reading of Paul’s claims to have “received” this “gospel.”

However, if one begins to examine more carefully just how independently Paul claims to have “received” this or that, it becomes clear that he is not in fact getting these ideas, facts, and narratives, from sources who were eyewitnesses and thus passed them on to him. Rather he makes the explicit claim that he did not get his “gospel,” which he carefully defines in 1 Cor 15:1, from men, or from any human source, but by a revelation from Jesus Christ himself (Galatians 1:11-12). In fact, he uses the very same verb in these verses, namely, paralambano as he does in 1 Corinthians 15.

So if Paul claims that his “gospel,” of the “death, burial, and resurrection” of Jesus did not come from men, does he intend to say, after all, that he talked to James or to Peter or to John and received from them these testimonies he reports?


REST HERE
http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK2J3MVDRHB4T47

As for verifying his gospel so that it was in line with that of the disciples ...

Galatians 2:11-14 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews joined him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not acting consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

This indicates to me that--along with the above--This is not the case. If the two had agreed, Paul would not have jumped down the throat of Peter calling him a hypocrite.

QUOTE
This is the view of alot of critical scholars but Robert Price seems to be one of the few that thinks its a post pauline interpolation.


Yeah, I have read his article. Interesting.

Apocryphal Apparitions: 1 Corinthians 15:3-11 as a Post-Pauline Interpolation by Robert M. Price, Institute for Higher Critical Studies, Drew University
http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html

QUOTE
Im not taking a position on this one as I havent really studied it enough..plus I feel that its so up for grabs that you have to pick a side.


Agreed.

QUOTE
I do have a good debate audio of Habermas, Mike Licona and Robert Price in regards to this specific creed and their views on the subject. If you would like I can send you the link to it so you can listen for yourself.

Your friend,

Hairston


That would be great my friend. Should be an interesting debate. yes.gif wink2.gif

Kindly,

Sean
hairston630
QUOTE (seanph @ Jan 31 2008, 03:55 PM) *
Good morning me pal. original.gif



Well, Paul states that everything he received was from the risen Jesus:

Gal. 1:11-12 he declares:

I want you to realize, brothers, that the gospel which I preach is not a human gospel, for I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Then further in verses 15-16 he says:

But when the one who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult with any human being.


As for verifying his gospel ... His [Paul] arrival on the scene, with a gospel that he claimed superior to that of the Disciples, caused a real bone of contention between the two camps. In fact, his message could easily be called heretical--and was. The Ebionites despised Paul, calling him an "apostate of the Law". The Diaspora Jews did the same--nearly beat him to a pulp! And the original Disciples had a serious problem with him as well, for he preached abrogation of the Law (no circumcision, eating with gentiles et al) and broke Jesus' commandments in Matthew 5:17-20. Also, his personal theology (Galatians 2:2), ruffled the feather of the pillars (James, Peter, John) of the Jesus movement. In fact, and as you well know, they [pillars] called Paul to Jerusalem to answer various charges. The "Jerusalem Council" came to a tenuous agreement regarding the gentile issue, yes, but one that did not last.

Paul ...

1) Paul claims that his Gospel is from the risen Jesus and not from men--including the Disciples:

Galatians 1:16-19 I did not