Hi guys,

I know there is a lot of topics regarding the Templars and their treasure, but I was just curious about two things, I hope someone can help.

If De Molay had such a big following and a massive army why did nobody help him escape or defend him?

and isnt this supposed treasure the Shroud Of Turin? it makes sense doesn't it? it was found around about the same time, although theres no evidence linking it to Christ, but still they could have thought it belonged to him.

Thanks
IS

Well firstly, they never had the power to oppose the pope, especially once de Molay had died.

And as for the shroud, its the only artifact that has an actual link to the Templars, albeit a tenuous one:



Ref

thanks for the reply, but doesnt it mean that could be the treasure then?

because Charney's family kept it hidden for quite a while before revealing it and then giving it up, and as it was passed down from one of the templars ( a high ranking one, who would know what the treasure was).


Thanks
IS

Probably, but this doesn't give any credence to it being genuine - rumours 1000 years ago are still only rumours.

You can get more done behind the scenes if your public life prevents you from carrying out what you wish. It would make sense for the templars to put a lookalike in de molay's place to put the church off of the scent.

The Templars were the richest organization in Europe at the time. I'd assume that they had dozens or hundreds of holy relics and possibly, literally, tons of gold and silver. The whole reason the French King ordered them to be disbanded was because he owed them more money then he could ever hope to repay.

Although doesn't that date jive with the C-14 dates they keep getting for the manufacture of the Shroud? It wouldn't be the first man-made relic trouping around Europe.

*points nonchalantly at any one of the 17 foreskins of Jesus in Europe

--Jaylemurph

Reminds me of Twain's comments on the vastness of the size of the "true cross," given the tons of "pieces of the true cross" he came across in his travels - documented in "The Innocents Abroad," an excellent and hilarious read.

Harte

The person on the shroud doesn't look like anyone of Middle Eastern descent either. It looks like someone of Frankish descent who spent a lot of time on a horse.

*points at the billions of pieces of the True Cross mounted on religious medals worldwide

Lapiche

Some people suggest that the image on the shroud is Molay himself as the shroud is dated to around the time Molay was cruxified.

It's possible.


Lapiche

I don't believe the current shroud is real, let alone the same one that was exhibited at the time - it most probably added to the myth of the Templars treasure tho.

I have heard that as well, though de Molay was crucified on a door rather than on a cross, because he was deemed less than worthy to be crucified in the same manner as Jesus Christ.

Molay was burnt at the stake and his body dumped into the Seine. I don't think the Latin church would crucify anyone.

--Jaylemurph

This is a controversial theory written by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas.
The theory claims that the Turin Shroud is actually an image of Jacques de Molay, not of Jesus Christ as is common belief.

The authors also claim that one of the reasons the Knights Templar were suppressed was because they knew a secret true history of Jesus which had been distorted by the Roman Catholic Church

Philip the Fair, King of France, set about to obtain control of the Knights Templars. They had been accountable only to the Church. To prevent a rise in the power of the Church, and to increase his own wealth, Philip set out to take over the Knights. The year 1307 saw the beginning of the persecution of the Knights. Jacques DeMolay, along with hundreds of others, were seized and thrown into dungeons. During years of torture, DeMolay continued to be loyal to his friends and Knights. He refused to disclose the location of the funds of the Order and he refused to betray his comrades. On March 18, 1314, DeMolay was tried by a special court. As evidence, the court depended on a forged confession, allegedly signed by DeMolay.
Another Knight, Guy of Auvergne, likewise disavowed his confession and stood with Jacques DeMolay.

King Philip ordered them both to be burned at the stake that day, Jacques DeMolay was then taken to an island on the Siene and burned along with Guy of Auvergne the Preceptor of Normandy.

One theory that I think has a lot of credence is that it is indeed the image of de Molay. Prior to his staking and death, he was tortured by Philip and crew, and the theory floated was that one of the forms of torture was indeed crucifixion - then burial like the Christ. The burial ritual had the body smeared in a waxy resin, then the burial shroud wrapped around. To finalize the torture, de Molay was allegedly "freed" of his burial shroud, and it was physically ripped off his body, effectively giving him a full-body wax job, removing bits of skin, hair, and caused lots and lots of pain.

The shroud was kept, and it allegedly bears the image of the torture victim de Molay.

Or, that's the theory I read. Personally, I think it's pretty plausible.

I thought the shroud was of Da Vinci. I saw a history channel documentary for it and it made sense.

[quote name='BriandG' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:09 AM' post='2100560']
Some people suggest that the image on the shroud is Molay himself as the shroud is dated to around the time Molay was cruxified.
[/quot
Now that is a very clever idea. Ofcourse that would make sense.

I'm coming at this late...
Seems like the majority think the shroud dates to the middle ages and therefore could not have had anything to do with JC. Also seems to be the majority view in the scientific community. Anyone able to summarise the evidence that it could be much older than this?

If the shroud was indeed the treasure, why would there be evidences that the Templars advised initiates not to believe in Christianity because it was "too young?"

Yes and they did so in one of the innumerable other threads on exactly this topic.

--Jaylemurph

0

That is a good read. Also a little known Twain story is that he was convinced he had seen the Holy Grail on his last visit to London. He was shown the Glastonbury "blue bowl" by Tudor Pole at Archdeacon Wilburforce's pad. Which of course reminds be of Twain's comments in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, "You see, he was going for the Holy Grail. The boys all took a flier at the Holy Grail now and then. It was a several years' cruise. They always put in the long absence snooping around, in the most conscientious way, though none of them had any idea where the Holy Grail really was, and I don't think any of them actually expected to find it, or would have known what to do with it if he had run across it."

Of course this has nothing to do with the thread, just some mental wanderings...