Oh I see. Then I wonder where that superstition came from.

Yes equality seems very far away.

He doesn't claim to be psychic. NEVER has. He doesn't believe in psychics.

Oh! I love that book!!!
Hehehe...We had to read it in english clas...For some reason everyone hated it, cept me...Very good, it has alot of inner meaning to it....It goes alot deeper into the text than alot of books...

Yea, I'm gonna try to the bottlecap thing....Seems like it would help my mind relise that it CAN do TK, probably speeding up the whole learning process...I think once I accomplish a small thing like that, I'll be able to accomplish the psi-wheel quite easily..

I can accomplish the psi-wheel... This has been PROVEN to not move due to psychic super powers.

Assuming such powers are real the bottle cap should actually be harder to move because there it is far heavier then a small piece of paper.

Using a $300 digital scale I have calculated exact weight of a 2x2 piece of paper and a bottle cap....

Paper: 0.2 grams
Bottle cap: 2.9 grams

Other factors besides weight include resistance as well, the bottle cap has tiny ridges and when you combine this with it's weight it's resistance is more. The paper has less resistance because it sits on a needle... After testing out both using my right index finger and giving each just a tiny tap the results were clear each time I did it. The paper moves on the needle so easily that just putting my hand by it was enough to cause it to move before I even touched it.

Forget about telekinesis..watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZinLozX8s4...feature=related

I fail to see what's so special about a car messing up it's paint job by sliding under a chain linked fence... This video has been tackled in the Ghost/haunting boards.

Jus tried the bottlecap thing...It works awosme...Did it 7 times in 20 minuets...Most of the time it would roll down the book...I think it's because I'm the only one out of all you guys who tried it thats actually trained in psi and energy movement and stuff...Works nice though...Oh and Athiest, I bet the bottle cap is easier because to move it, all you have to do is push a little on the edge, and it rolls, the psi wheel needs a continues force...

Welcome to science, H! You can hold your own with a Ph.D. - you have held your own with a Ph.D. - because you did the work, instead of guessing how it would or "should" turn out.

Come on, Eric. Issue yourself a bottlecap and a book. Odds are, in the time it would you take to weigh the bottlecap on a digital scale (rofl), you can actually do the experiment.

In fairness, H, when Eric does it, that's going to level the playing field fast. He's going to have an explanation of why he was able to do it. Then the people who have done it can debate why they were able to do it.

However that debate turns out, we are a world away from psi-wheels and Youtube. We're doing science, based on actual experimentation, real results which anybody can see for themselves, and critical thought about the experiences we have in common, but whose interpretation remains to be settled.

Don't you think thats being a bit condescending?

Big claims calls for big evidence... Where's the proof?

Well, by pressing on the book slightly harder, I got the cap to roll down the book and back as well. I do not have any psi abilities, and I done this quite easily.

Lol >.<

The psi-wheel does need a continued force but at the same time less initial force to get it started due to 2 main factors less friction and less mass... likewise with the bottlecap all you need to do is touch the edge and it moves. The only friction on the pinwheel surface area is where the needle and paper touch. With the bottle cap you have little groves and it is not a perfect cylindrical shape and this causes the cap to rest on the surface with far more resistance then a piece of paper on a needle.

At such small amounts of weight and other factors as well the sense of touch is no longer reliable enough to base a conclusion. The other flaw in your conclusion is that the bottle cap does not require a continued force. The cap will not roll forever just like the pinwheel will not spin forever... The initial force used however is more by default simply due to the weight and resistance of the cap cause by the grooves.



It just to bad as I said above that the conclusion is flawed and inaccurate... I never guessed why the paper is easier to move.



Again weight is not the only factor thing like resistance and surface area come into play... Simply touching a bottle cap on a book and touching a pin wheel are not enough and you have to take into account weight, shape, surface area and so on to formulate which one is easier to move. Touching both items alone is doing some of the work doing the math and applying simple physics does the rest.

One simple law used in my conclusion is that for every action there is an opposite an equal reaction. So if the cap was perfectly round on a smooth surface to get it to roll 360 degrees you have to apply force equal to it's weight which is 2.9 grams this does not include the grooves and the added resistance they ad against the test surface and air. To get the pinwheel to spin 360 degrees an applied force .2 grams is needed added resistance of shape vs test surface and air not included.

The paper in the pin is so sensitive that the heat from your hands will cause it to move or even air currents cause by temperature variations in the room. It is clear when you consider main factors involved that the pinwheel is far easier to move.

OK, Moro. You almost did it.


Replication means replicating the whole outcome. The whole outcome, in this case, is getting the bottlecap to roll back and forth without conscious awareness of exerting any force on the book.

Put aside that you don't like some of the people on the other side, or that you found one of them condescending. Be an impersonal investigator, and have the same experience - the same full experience - as those who interpret the experience differently from you.

In other words, do science.


Get a book and a bottlecap, and investigate it yourself. User dreamland fully discharged any obligation he had to provide evidence when he disclosed his materials and methods in sufficient detail to allow others to replicate what he did.

Since many of us have replicated what dreamland did, we are past needing "evidence" as to what happens. We are down to interpreting the phenomenon. That may or may not involve further evidence (although Tom, Vanquish, provided a crucial observation).

I suppose you are correct, getting upset with these people on here does nothing for the topic at hand. If they think
they are better than everyone else due to some special ability, it's just better to look over it.

I did the experiment again last night with a thick, hard back book! While only slightly pressing on the edge of the book I
managed to get the cap to roll down the book and back several times.


Regards,
Tom

Let me get a cap and a scale. I'm on it.

I will buy webcam somewhere this week,and i will show you,that i can move bottlecap using telekinesis,and later i will describe details of my experiment.

I am about to pee myself with anticipation.

Forget the scale, but you'll really need that book.


BOO YA! oops, sorry...


OK, now try a somewhat oversized paperback, something you can comfortably rest a good bit of your hand on, with good separation from the bottlecap.

Do it right and you won't feel a thing, neither the efferent ("telling" your hand to press and release), nor the reafferent (the feedback sensation of doing that).

Well, that works very good. I suppose, I can put this experiment to the side now.

Now, I think that I will work on a pin/psiwheel! Try out different materials, hand placements, covering it with
a glass bowl etc. see what works best for making it spin.

I think I will even devise a way to make the pin/psiwheel hang freely, (Possibly on some fishing line!) then see
how it spins.


Regards,
Tom

I've also done it while satnding across the room, without even touching the book....I've had a few of my friends watch, and it's obvious im not pressin on the book even when I am touchin git, it's just to help you move it...To get your mind to move it...

Well, while your friends are there, next time record a video of you doing this so we can see exactly how you do it.
Shouldn't be that hard to do, as you seem to be doing it quite easily.


Regards,
Tom

K, Need to find the clip for my tri-pod...My little sister los tit, so I won't be able to record less I find it...It's alot harder with people, I don't know why, get nervous, lol, with someone in the room it takes me like 5 minuets, opposed to like 2...

I'm sure this will be interesting, I can't wait.

Hmm. I wonder why?

Well, since your critics might die of old age waiting for your video equipment to reappear, I ask that you do what dreamland did.

You are talking about a human capability. Therefore, you cannot possibly be the only person who can do it.

So, tell us your 'across the room' setup, and what you did, and all of that, in enough detail that any of us can do the same thing. Maybe not all of us are as talented as you, but odds are that at least some of us will make reasonable progress.

Then we won't need the video. BTW, if you did post the video, it would be unconvincing anyway. But k-skeptics didn't call dreamland a liar, because the k team was able to see what dreamland saw with their own eyes, live, upclose, and personal.


But you are touching it in that case. How sure are you that you aren't pressing just enough?

How much is just enough anyway? When I replicated dreamland's report, the first thing I did was deliberately press to see how much force was required. So, now it's your turn.

Deliberately move the bottlecap not using your mind to do it, but rather using press and release explicitly. What is the least amount of force that will do the job?

Then, when you know how much force it takes to do it, think about what kind of precautions you would need to take to know that you were not exerting that much force without realizing it.

And a second BTW, odds are that once the bottlecap started to move, your friends weren't looking at your hand anymore. Sudden onset of motion catches the eye, involuntarily. So, what they saw or didn't see is uninteresting.

How convenient... You can record without the tripod just simply set the recorder on a table or get someone to hold it for you.

Insert excuse here _____ as to why this cannot be done... lost cord, missing batteries, dog ate the lens etc.

I know...I tried that too at first...It takes like my whole body weight for it to move alot of the time, i have to press down full force...



And the across the room setup is prolly the exact same as the one with you there...I just got used to the feeling of moving the bottlecap, then I tried to replicate it without touching the book...It's a little harder, so might take you a little longer...

Sorry I was unclear. My question was what was the minimum force, in the same conditions as when you were showing your friends.


That doesn't tell us anything. I guess you're going to make us wait for the movie on that one.

The minimum force to make it move, I know, it takes pretty much my whole body wieght for it to move....Any smaller amount of pressure doesnt do anything....

That must be some pretty big book you've got it on, H.

Harry Potter books are pretty thick.

Still no video from Heartagram. Oh well, I figured as much.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Heart lied to us...

Please, let's be careful tossing around accusations of 'lying'...it should be enough to say that the person has simply failed to provide any evidence for their claims.

Of course. What did you expect?

Man people, can't a person be weak and tired? I've been usin alot of psyical strenght, so It's hard to do Tk when your tired and soar...

Sore. Its always going to be some excuse.

Thats fine. So, how long must we wait now before you regain your strength, so we might be able to see the video?

I also want to get better at it...give me 1 month to get relle good...Then I'll make a vid...That's resonible time for me to practice...Feel free to send me pm's like every week so I don't forget..

You can either do it or you can't. You are putting off the inevitable which is nothing.

So how about we drop the lame excuses shall we.

I've seen it all here before one excuse after another, first it was a tripod and now it's because your to tired... I knew this would happen before it happened.



I predict that no video will appear here in a month as you claim... I was right before and I will be right again.

No one cares how good you are at TK we just want to see you use it, if you can at all.

Here we see the third and likely final excuse in this thread. First it was the tripod, then it was because your too tired, now it's because your not good enough.

The question one must ask here is why should we believe you when you can't even get your story straight? Personally I don't believe you, and I don't think a video will ever be posted here by you displaying what you claim to be able to do.

Heart your not the only person to flip flop here regarding TK those of us who have been around for a while have seen 1 excuse after another and members come and go after being called on it.

I find that the best approach to take to things like this is a "maybe."

Don't go in thinking it's true without proof, don't go in thinking that it's impossible because it's not proven.

Not only does this approach lead to an open mind, it makes life more interesting in general and removes the need to impose your sense of logical justice on every single individual that comes in here claiming to have experienced something supernatural. You don't want to end up like that guy who's so obsessed with it that he makes his signature a loud, accusatory rant in a giant font. That guy who never actually participates in a conversation unless it's to tell somebody that they're wrong. That's just annoying.

Of course, you can't go through life considering every possibility. You'll go insane. Just live life as it is, read your scientific journals. Learn about reality, which the definition of is constantly changing anyways and the boundaries of what is acceptable as scientific possibility are constantly expanding beyond the limits of the average mind. Just loosen up and enjoy things.

See...Thats a good skeptic!

No evidence is evidence of absence.

I base my views on the evidence which there is none to support TK. If there was even a shred of tangible evidence I would change my stance on such abilities.

Those making bold claims here have always had the opportunity to provide us with something aside from words and don't. Hell there is even a million dollar prize to anyone who can prove that these abilities exist under controlled conditions.

Yeah, but you act like these people are coming here and asking you to believe it. They are coming here to talk about telekinesis, or psionic powers, or whatever, and you're coming in and telling them that they're wrong. Obviously, they seem to think that there is evidence, whether it's personal experience or whatever. Do you think that you're going to convince them that they're wrong? Do you think that they don't already realize that it's not something they can prove? People aren't stupid. Maybe some of them are just flat out lying, but so what? It's not like there are innocent board viewers who are at risk of suddenly believing in telekinesis. We all know our limits of belief, and we know whether or not we believe in something.

I just don't understand why all of these topics turn into debates about whether or not something is real. It becomes a hostile environment.

By making claims they are asking us to believe, and we are asking them to put up or shut up. There are plenty of believer only boards if they are scared to show proof. Stay on this board several years, and even you would get tired of all the xmen kids.

Ahh, I think that answers it. When they make claims, they are not asking YOU to believe. YOU are interpreting their claims as asking for your approval. Personally, I think you're sort of overestimating your importance. I don't see why you think that your approval of something that they claim to have experienced is of any relevance. It seems to me that you're kind of obsessed. That, of course, is just MY personal interpretation.