Ive been pondering this question for quite some time. I finally decided to put it in the form of a thread to get some christian responses. This is not to say that debating is bad as I feel that some learn from the experience but what does the bible say (to christians that is?) Why, after months and months and months of argueing and debating do we continue to try and convince those around us that are confident with their decisions? Could we be denying our own scriptures?. Lets look at the verses, shall we?

Acts 18:6
6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he (A)shook out his garments and said to them, "Your (B)blood be on your own heads! I am clean From now on I will go ©to the Gentiles.".

Acts 13:45-46
45But when (A)the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you (B)first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, ©we are turning to the Gentiles.

Matthew 10:13-14
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Romans 16:17-18
17 But I beseech you, brethren, to consider those who create divisions and occasions of falling, contrary to the doctrine which *ye* have learnt, and turn away from them. 18 For such serve not our Lord Christ, but their own belly, and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.

2 Timothy 3:1-5
1 And this know thou, that in the last days there shall come perilous times, 2 for men shall be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, evil-speakers, to parents disobedient, unthankful, unkind, 3 without natural affection, implacable, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, not lovers of those who are good, 4 traitors, heady, lofty, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, 5 having a form of piety, and its power having denied; and from these be turning away,

Titus 3:9-11
9 But hold yourself aloof from foolish controversies and pedigrees and discussions and wrangling about the Law, for they are useless and vain. 10 After a first and second admonition, have nothing further to do with any one who will not be taught; 11 for, as you know, a man of that description has turned aside from the right path and is a sinner self-condemned.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once for all been enlightened, and have tasted the sweetness of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have realized how good the word of God is and how mighty are the powers of the coming Age, and then fell away-- 6 it is impossible, I say, to keep bringing them back to a new repentance, for, to their own undoing, they are repeatedly crucifying the Son of God afresh and exposing Him to open shame.

All of these verses are aimed at us christians, me being one of them, yet we continue. I just want YOUR thoughts as christians as to why YOU are still doing it? (I will accept the fact that there are guests in here, and that could be one reason)

Kindly,

Hairston

fear. fear you just might be wrong.

it's the only reason any religion gets it's fur up. ya just might be wrong . all of ya. and come to find standing next to you in 'heaven' is bin laden..... wouldn't that burn your keester ? that God went against your plans ? bet that would burn bin ladens too.

Ripley, your a card...I dont care what they say about you

Hairston

Edit: You could just be right too

Scriptures aside, you raise a good point Hairston.
Something I have repeatedly asked of myself: "Why continue to debate those who are firm in their beliefs?"

I haven't come up with a reasonable answer.
But I am slowly learning NOT to bother. While the learning aspects are sometimes interesting, the accumulated nonsense that accompanies it is no longer even trifling amusing.


I hope a non christian perspective is acceptable.

Will ignore backhanded compliment to Ripley.

I see on here Christians learning about their own beliefs. Like PA - he goes and finds references and puts effort into what he writes. And I assume he is learning and nutting out what he really believes at the same time. Sometimes you don't actually know what you believe in detail until you are forced to defend it.

Whether it goes against the Bible is up to you guys.

Because some truly open-minded reader may come along, and they should get to see both sides of the debate represented.

It's fun, educational, and sometimes you convert the other side. Over time religion will die as the truth comes out. Debates bring out truth. I debate to expose the truth.

I guess you didnt get that it was a friendly joke, not a backhanded remark. But Im not gonna make a big deal out of it.

Hairston

Speaking from a non-christian view, I debate for several reasons:
1. It is fun
2. I hate people having false satisfaction
3. There's a 0.1% chance they'll change
4. I don't want them to convince others that they are right.

I believe many conservative Christians continue to debate because:

1. They think there is some world-wide conspiracy against them
2. They think they might win()
3. They think it will get them into heaven

but that is just my 2 cents.

Exactly. More often when you convert someone, it isn't the person you're debating, it's an unbiased reader.

I feel this way too!

Let the fundies keep on talkin , is what I say!

Like I said at the end of my post..I can grant that type of situation but when is it plausible for the christian to start obeying what THESE verses say?. Do we just reconcile the idea that viewers are watching so we will just sweep these little verses under the rug until were fed up?


Hairston

I actually think we need more here!

I would be more fun if it was more 50/50 on here.

P.S sorry Hairston

Their are fallacies in your interpretation of the verses. THey say that when a group of people reject the gospel, leave them to their fate. However, on a forum, there are an elite few who do the talking, while the others sit and listen. The ones doing the listening haven't rejected anything, they're undecided. So shouldn't you try and claim those souls for the Lord?

Unless and until we can prove that there will not be a reader who will be swayed, can we simply walk away? There may be some who can.

Aw come on hairston630,

Without you Christians this forum would be nothing but a "big atheist circle jerk" as one of your fellow Christians so eloquently stated in another thread.

Seriously as an atheist who has developed some what of a persecution complex at the hands of fundamental Christians, it does my heart good to know that there are still some open minded moderate Christians that actually strive to be accepting and friendly with everyone, regardless of their beliefs. Hell some of you guys are even nice to me.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that if real Christian folks such as yourself, MissMellsWell, PA, and others do not speak your mind then the fundamentalists will do it for you.

I do see what you are saying, hairston. I have thought much the same thing from time to time. Very rarely have I seen anyone change their minds about the Bible because of an internet discussion. However, as has been stated, I think there are many people who are not so interested in posting but regularly read to find both sides of view.

Might i also venture that in some ways (at least on the internet) there is very much an element of selfishness to the arguments. In the absence of anyone actually wanting to change their beliefs, discussing often becomes more about exploring my own beliefs, refining what I believe and thinking further about the mysteries of life. Through the exploration of my own ideas and opinions and bouncing ideas off of other people (both Christian and non-Christian), it has led me to a better knowledge of what I believe and why. This then translates into more productive discussions outside of the internet where people are not so keen on arguing every minutiae of detail or picking up on grammar or changing the topic to pick up on a small insignificant detail. In a way, then, arguing on the internet can indirectly help us to better discuss with other people outside the internet setting.

Just a few thoughts,

~ Paranoid Android

Thanks for the kind words Evanjc



Very good PA. Always bringing thoughtful posts to the table

Hairston

If one asks a question it is only polite to answer that question even if your answer is biased. An example would be, you wish to take a good holiday over seas and you want to know were I would choose to go. Now from my own personal experience I might recommend Mexico because every time I have gone there I have had a fantastic time in the sun and the surf. But someone else experience might counter my own. i.e. he was mugged got sun burnt and his wife ran of with a local gigolo, I would never be able to convince him it’s a great place to visit and every time he over heard me speaking of Mexico as such a great destination his natural response is to jump in and share his side.

Ones belief system is very similar because it the persons personal journey that he wishes to share with others. But he must be aware some others don’t want to hear how great it is because there experience was very different.

There is nothing wrong with not giving your opinion, and it only an opinion until some one perceives it as imposing personal beliefs. Therein lays the problem. It is perfectly natural in conversation to share ones experience because it brought them joy and happiness and they may truly want you to have the same experience. Some people however are just plain bull headed and will not entertain others experience nor listen to them and that goes for religious people and atheist alike.

Irish

Very well said,PA.

As for the original post:

I enjoy some of the discussions here on UM,and enjoy reading the posts by certain members who actually take the time to debate,answer and think about things.Unfortunately,some of my questions never get answered or are overlooked...but hey,that's life.

Even though I am not Christian,I do believe that each has his/her/it's own path to follow...and it's not my right to attempt to put them on a different path.I will however see if I can get them to think about things in a bit more depth.

Exactly the point!
I am in no fear of my beliefs or faith and the athiest that complain about the christians and why they are here could ask the same question of themselves, If your so secure in your beliefs why are you here? Always a pleasure

Insecurity. Christians and atheists can only affirm their beliefs through yelling contests, hoping to look stronger and louder than the competition. Otherwise they wouldn't bother. Without each other, they're doomed to realize they're two halves of the same soul-sucking cult.

Thanks for the responses so far. I do want to add...It seems that people are taking this thread as if I am implying something about christians or myself removing ourselves from the forum. My purpose of this thread is to question the reasons for christians to go against these verses of scripture in order to justify a reason to be here debating and discussing NOT a plea to stop debating. I see nothing wrong with discussions as I have learned so many things here at UM and I do believe that the discussions can lend help to those that are seeking questions and answers. I just didnt know what CHRISTIANS thought about these verses and when they feel its time to obey those verses.

Kindly,

Hairston

Hee Hee..................you said EXPOSE..........your'e in trouble now !




I think my debating borders on a neurosis ............oh I don't know could it be Satan ??!!!!!!!

I rarely debate non-believers... why would I? It's futile and pointless.

BUT, what I do try to do is correct misconceptions about what people claim to know about my beliefs. Unfortunately, it does tend to end up looking like a debate on occasion, but that's really not the intent.

I like to debate people who have viewpoints that are radically different than mine. It gives me a new perspective on how other people think. Sometimes though, it goes too far, especially when people get riled up about their beliefs to the point of being rude of excessively arrogant. I think the thing to keep in mind when debating someone from a different faith than you is that faith does not equal truth. I am an athiest, but Im pretty open to the idea that I could be wrong about that, you know? I mean its a fifty fifty shot, either there is a god or there isnt, and you cant prove it (using empiricism anyways). But I'm pretty sure if there is a God and I died right now and had to stand before him he probably wouldnt be too upset that I'm an athiest. I would hardly consider God all knowing and all loving if he said "well, I know you went to catholic school for 15 years and that pretty much ruined christianity for you, and your parents sent you to a fundamentalist christian camp because your parents forgot to read the fine print and they had no idea that the camp was run by fundies, but regardless you were so disgusted by the way that you were treated by the fundies for being catholic that you forswore all religion for simple humanitarianism, but see I cant let you in because youre an athiest. even though your life experiences totally pushed you away from christianity and it was pretty much out of your hands, i still cant let you in."
thats a silly idea.

Honestly though, some of the most interesting people and ideas ive heard have come from my short time on this board, and even though every now and again someone posts some sensationalist bs and everyone gets all defensive I still like to talk to people who have different opinions than me. It helps me understand myself and my views better.

I think that a friendly debate about your beliefs and values can strengthen your faith. It can also break down your faith so that is a risk. Debating with intellegent people that don't believe as you do can inspire you to seek answers to verify your own beliefs and claims. Blindly having faith in something that you have no hope of explaining can be a big mistake, but looking for answers can give you comfort in your own beliefs and relationship with the God that you worship or in that you don't need to worship one.

I think Irish summed it up pretty good.

The rason I share what I know about Father (God), Is I want every one to know about The unconditional love of God twars all His Children, (Athiests included)

Which goes against almost all religious doctrins, but is non the less true.

This may be purley selfish on my part also because not stating what I do about God and Man, after learning what I have, would leave Me with remorse, for not sharing what I do, at the end of this life.

Wether any one believes me is inconsequential, especially if That last statement is true (Unconditional love) And it is.

Believe it or not.

Love Omnaka

the way i see it... Who better to answer his doubters than God himself... IMO, if GOD cared he would show himself to people who questioned his existence... and evidently he doesn't seem to have the time to waste, and i can't help but take the same attitude... and yes GOD EXIST... and there is only one GOD... be it the farther, the son or the holy spirit.

I admire christians for still doing it...........straight up

Reason being is this.............when you take a stand for your faith, thats shows how strongly you feel as a christian. You hold a right to stand up for your beliefs, you hold a right to debate

It is best to debate, it lets you see how others who arent christian think

Not many christians do this...some wouldnt go near a PC lol but when you take a stand...you get stronger as you see BOTH sides of the debate

You can join a religious forum that only holds christians..but that would most likely bore you to tears...you like a challenge...thats good

Keep your spirits up ...stand up for your christian belief...even against the likes of...............................ME!!! LOL

The one major point that can't be ignored is the safety we all find sitting in front of our computers. It's a safe way to explore difficult subjects that, more often than not, leave no hard feelings. I'm no less a stubborn ox in person, as anyone who has met me will no doubt concur, but in person, where I'm really no different, that random person walks away with a face and a being to attribute to whatever I left them with and if it turns harsh about peoples' personal beliefs, which I don't shy away from, that person can walk away with a much more effecting and visceral experience (for better or worse). Somehow, writing it out anonomously offers a level of protection that doesn't exist elsewhere. You can always just walk away. This is no different for a christian or anyone of any particular belief. It's exploration of said beliefs in an environment where the familiarity of certain posters becomes comforting no matter what idea you're putting forth. The main point being, christians enter debates or try to convert for many of the same reasons anyone else does about a subject: personal affirmation. The very exercise of it, when applied properly, tests your own understanding. It also can affirm that many of the ideas we debate, coming from a pretty militant atheist as myself, come down to more interpersonal understandings of human interaction that we should crave. From my point point of view, it's affirming that I can disagree on fundamental existential issues but still agree in concept on so many personal issues with such folk as Hairston, PA, MMW, Irish and Sandee.

Actually, some of the most heated debates I have seen have been on a Christian forum. Certain controversial issues such as divorce, the Rapture, Free Will, Hell, certain parenting practices, cloning, stem-cell research, and others, have sometimes such different opinions that it brings out the best and worst in Christians (they can really get rabid, at times). One thing's for sure, it certainly didn't bore me to tears

It gets boring if everyone on the forum agrees. I could go to a Pagan forum and sit there and agree with everyone but what would be the point, thats not any fun. I like it here there are so many different religions here, that is what makes it interesting. As long as there are Christians and Muslims here I will be happy to debate with them. One of my friends ask me what I was doing one day and I told him picking on the Christians.

You guys have it too easy in this forum I go on other forums & they would eat you all for breakfast & not in a good way. I think it's ok to have a good debate here & there because for some people who are having trouble with his/her faith maybe t does help them reaffirm what they have always have belived plus it help to learn how other think & feel & learn more about other religions instead of being so closed minded about things.

Funny thing thats excatly what we have been doing on these last few threads in learning isn't that what life is?

Goes to show you how christians cant agree with their own faith then.....especially like you have just said.... they have heated debates on what the bible says and what it means....

This is how so many protestants formed LOL

Just had a thought... yeah I know I don't have them very often

Perhaps it's better to debate in this manner then it is to go out & make a fool of ourselves, at least this way we're learning from each other instead of acting like a bunch of idiots.

Someones happy today

Why do Christians contniue debating non-Christians? Let's reverse it: why do non-Christians continue debating Christians? Ain't neither side gettin' anywhere. Maybe we ought to look at common ground instead of what makes us different. Doug

I'm trying to decide whether hairston is a "real" Christian, or just unusually well-informed. Doug

Define real christian?? As far as I am aware, each christian has their OWN personal views.....

Why do people insist on telling them who they are??

So then I am Christian. An atheistic Christian. Christians have their personal views, don't they, lol?

I meant their OWN personal ways on how to follow Christ

Christian = christs follower

too many think you MUST go to a church so often....stick with a bible..do it this way, do it that way...I say do it in any way you see fit

as for you...please you DONT want me to tell you what I think you are lol

I actually do. You're the one who gave rise to my curiosity, no? XD

You really want to know?

Yep. If you're going to rebuke me, I wouldn't care; it would be my fault for asking you. Go ahead then, tell me.

People die wanting

You're seriously secretive. You're going to tell me it's personal again, aren't you?
Anyway, this is kind of off-topic. It'd be better if this was taken to the PM.

How do you keep a person in suspence?

In some minor points of our Faith we differ, but Christians generally have certain major doctrines that we all share as true. Myself and IamsSon, for example, differ in opinions on various issues (Hell, for example), but we both look at each other as Christians, because our main beliefs are the same. No one will ever have the right answer on everything, especially in modern controversial issues such as stem-cell research which the Bible doesn't address. That doesn't mean Christians can't agree, it just means we are all human and have different opinions. But our main doctrines of belief in Jesus as the risen saviour are the ones that matter, which is why, despite our different views, Iams and myself consider each other Christian.

All the best, BM

~ Regards, PA

Hairston I didn't read the name at the OP but I knew it was you immediately. I've seen you having a crisis of faith and being swayed etc etc.

Rarely on this site have I ever seen a Christian attempt to convert anyone. I've actually seen more Muslims come on here and try to push their view as being the way to go. Mostly what I see on here is as MMW says, correcting misconceptions of the religion being passed around by anti Christians.

If you stop and think about it the number of angry anti christians on this site FAR outweighs any people on here that are trying to "convert" people.

So those quotes you used don't really apply. In addition discussing for interest is just a fun thing to do. Don't make the mistake of projecting your feelings onto other believers.