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Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs
You know, this thread was created by Bee_Eff so he could answer people's honest questions... it wasn't really intended for a debate and he isn't intersted in debating it. Is there a reason this is being derailed?
Why did smith have to talk into a hat to give his story.
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 04:59 PM) 
Are you seriously defending this insane idea?
Are you a Mormon, are you speaking for Mormons when you imply that you think it is possible that Jews came to North America before Scandanavians or Europeans?
Are you a Mormon, are you speaking for Mormons when you imply that you think it is possible that Jews came to North America before Scandanavians or Europeans?
No, I am not a mormon, I can not speak for them. I am also not a jew, not a native american. And not a christian. I was discussing the logic upon which your criticisms are built. Is that not allowed?
Who is the next Prophet for your Religion, and How is he Picked?
Love Omnaka
Love Omnaka
QUOTE
No, I am not a mormon, I can not speak for them. I am also not a jew, not a native american. And not a christian. I was discussing the logic upon which your criticisms are built. Is that not allowed?
It wasn't a criticism until you moved the discussion to critique. All I want to know, from a MORMON, is if they believe the some Native Americans are lost Israelites, and if so, how do they reconcile that with modern science and archeology?
Any MORMON available to answer that?
Since the Doctrine and Covenants says not to imbibe in hot drinks, why isn't iced coffee allowed?
Why is is that men in heaven will have multiple wives, but the women don't get to have multiple husbands?
Why do men get into heaven free of charge, but women have to be "pulled thru the veil" by their husbands?
What's the point in Mormon beer (Utah lower alochol content beer) since mormons can't drink anyway?
For every Book of Mormon you give out, how many frequent flyer miles do you receive?
Why is is that men in heaven will have multiple wives, but the women don't get to have multiple husbands?
Why do men get into heaven free of charge, but women have to be "pulled thru the veil" by their husbands?
What's the point in Mormon beer (Utah lower alochol content beer) since mormons can't drink anyway?
For every Book of Mormon you give out, how many frequent flyer miles do you receive?
QUOTE (frig @ Jan 23 2008, 11:07 AM)
Since the Doctrine and Covenants says not to imbibe in hot drinks, why isn't iced coffee allowed?
Why is is that men in heaven will have multiple wives, but the women don't get to have multiple husbands?
Why do men get into heaven free of charge, but women have to be "pulled thru the veil" by their husbands?
What's the point in Mormon beer (Utah lower alochol content beer) since mormons can't drink anyway?
For every Book of Mormon you give out, how many frequent flyer miles do you receive?
Why is is that men in heaven will have multiple wives, but the women don't get to have multiple husbands?
Why do men get into heaven free of charge, but women have to be "pulled thru the veil" by their husbands?
What's the point in Mormon beer (Utah lower alochol content beer) since mormons can't drink anyway?
For every Book of Mormon you give out, how many frequent flyer miles do you receive?
I’m not a Mormon but I live in Utah,
I can say I know Mormons who won’t drink coffee but will drink hot coco. I have never heard that they can’t drink hot drinks; I thought it was more of a no caffeine kind of thing than a hot thing.
I don’t have a clue as to Men pulling, multiple Wives into heaven though veils.
I can say that Mormons are not supposed to drink alcohol or smoke.
As for your beer question (one of my favorite subjects BTW). I think it’s a bit presumptuous to assume everyone in Utah is Mormon. In fact there are more non Mormons in Salt Lake than Mormons. That is why they sell beer and other alcoholic beverages in Utah. Do you also assume everyone in Massachusetts is catholic, or everyone from California is a new age hippie? Just wondering.
“Mormon beer”? I think you are referring to the watered down 3.2 % stuff they sell in grocery stores. Well if this is “Mormon beer” then “Mormon beer” is sold all over the country. If you want the good full strength beer in Utah you must go to state liquor store to get it. It’s no big deal. There are states with much stranger liquor laws than Utah.
YOu know, if non-mormons keep answering the questions, it's defeating the purpose of the OP and just adding more potential misinformation.
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 12:30 PM)
YOu know, if non-mormons keep answering the questions, it's defeating the purpose of the OP and just adding more potential misinformation.
Sorry but I think I know more about beer than the OP.
QUOTE (frig @ Jan 23 2008, 12:07 PM)
Since the Doctrine and Covenants says not to imbibe in hot drinks, why isn't iced coffee allowed?
Why is is that men in heaven will have multiple wives, but the women don't get to have multiple husbands?
Why do men get into heaven free of charge, but women have to be "pulled thru the veil" by their husbands?
What's the point in Mormon beer (Utah lower alochol content beer) since mormons can't drink anyway?
For every Book of Mormon you give out, how many frequent flyer miles do you receive?
Why is is that men in heaven will have multiple wives, but the women don't get to have multiple husbands?
Why do men get into heaven free of charge, but women have to be "pulled thru the veil" by their husbands?
What's the point in Mormon beer (Utah lower alochol content beer) since mormons can't drink anyway?
For every Book of Mormon you give out, how many frequent flyer miles do you receive?
it is the caffine in coffee. the hot drinks refer to booze. men will pull wives to heaven and wives will pull men to heaven. We have eternal marriages meaning that your spouse in this life will be your spouse in the next one. To keep the family together the one who gets to the higher plane of glory will pull the rest through to them.
the 3.2 beer is sold in utah because of altitude. No i don't use the stuff.
none.
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 01:30 PM)
YOu know, if non-mormons keep answering the questions, it's defeating the purpose of the OP and just adding more potential misinformation.
If the non-mormon get the answers right who cares
QUOTE (Saraswati @ Jan 23 2008, 10:46 AM)
So if it is either/or, that means genetic evidence is not required.
As for archeological evidence, if 10 jews arrived in north america and then transferred a tradition to a tribe of natives before they died out, where would you find archeological evidence?
As for archeological evidence, if 10 jews arrived in north america and then transferred a tradition to a tribe of natives before they died out, where would you find archeological evidence?
after examining the Book of Mormon you find that this group of people went through Asia.
At least two of the brothers were not righteous people. So who knows how many wild oats they planted along the way.
The church says that they went through Africa but for those of you who have the book in nephi 1 chapter 17 verse one it clearly states that they went east for many years. This may be chapter 16 going on memory here.
East of Israel is Asia not Africa.
QUOTE
If the non-mormon get the answers right who cares
Because unless it comes from a Mormon, how would I know if it was accurate?
Are you a mormon?
if so, can you confirm that you believe that at least some native americans are lost isrealites?
why doesn't LDS except responsibility for the mountain meadows massacre???
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 11:30 AM)
YOu know, if non-mormons keep answering the questions, it's defeating the purpose of the OP and just adding more potential misinformation.
neo, one doesn't have to be a mormon to understand mormonism..not to mention one on the outside isn't invested or pusing an adgenda .. My best friend is a high priest (mormon)... I know all about it he tells me everything ...Also where one practices mormonism makes a diffenrce california is alot more liberal than Utah....
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 02:16 PM)
Because unless it comes from a Mormon, how would I know if it was accurate?
Are you a mormon?
if so, can you confirm that you believe that at least some native americans are lost isrealites?
Are you a mormon?
if so, can you confirm that you believe that at least some native americans are lost isrealites?
yes to both questions
FINALLY.
Thank you.
Getting information from non-mormons is likely to just spread misinformation.
I don't care if you know someone who is a high priest in mormonism. I don't care what you have to say on the subject if there is an actual mormon who is willing to answer. Coming from a non-mormon, the information is already at least second hand.
Now that I understand that you do beleive that some native americans are lost israelites, how do you reconcile archeology and genetics that say differently?
Thank you.
Getting information from non-mormons is likely to just spread misinformation.
I don't care if you know someone who is a high priest in mormonism. I don't care what you have to say on the subject if there is an actual mormon who is willing to answer. Coming from a non-mormon, the information is already at least second hand.
Now that I understand that you do beleive that some native americans are lost israelites, how do you reconcile archeology and genetics that say differently?
QUOTE (Supra Sheri @ Jan 23 2008, 02:20 PM)
why doesn't LDS except responsibility for the mountain meadows massacre???
Why don't all Germans take responsibility for the Holocaust.
It was also not completely the fault of the Mormons who committed this awful act.
let me explain if i can. bee can correct me where i go wrong.
The mountain meadows massacre took place during the so called Mormon rebellion. The only problem is the rebellion only took place back east in newspapers.
The president at the time (Taft I think) was convinced by several newspaper articles and some congressmen that the Mormons in Utah were going to rebel against the government. So he sent in troops to put down this revolt.
Because of poor timing on the side of the troops and an early snow storm. The only real action that took place was the burning of a couple of supply trains no one got hurt. and the Mormons then rounding up some blankets so that the federal troops wouldn't freeze to death.
The wagon train involved was from Missouri. With the memory of the mob death of Joesph smith still fresh. The local Mormons thought for some stupid reason that these people might be part of the federal troops or maybe spying for them not sure. They sent a messenger to salt lake for instructions but didn't wait for an answer.
so basically it was bad timing on part of the wagon train, and stupidity on the part of the local people.
as for the military action. both sides won. The federal government was allowed to put troops into salt lake to keep an eye on the Mormons but under the directions of Brigham young. The base was like 50 miles from salt lake. You've seen the base in almost every john Wayne calvary movie.
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 02:37 PM)
FINALLY.
Thank you.
Getting information from non-mormons is likely to just spread misinformation.
I don't care if you know someone who is a high priest in mormonism. I don't care what you have to say on the subject if there is an actual mormon who is willing to answer. Coming from a non-mormon, the information is already at least second hand.
Now that I understand that you do beleive that some native americans are lost israelites, how do you reconcile archeology and genetics that say differently?
Thank you.
Getting information from non-mormons is likely to just spread misinformation.
I don't care if you know someone who is a high priest in mormonism. I don't care what you have to say on the subject if there is an actual mormon who is willing to answer. Coming from a non-mormon, the information is already at least second hand.
Now that I understand that you do beleive that some native americans are lost israelites, how do you reconcile archeology and genetics that say differently?
after examining the Book of Mormon you find that this group of people went through Asia.
At least two of the brothers were not righteous people. So who knows how many wild oats they planted along the way.
there were also at least three different groups here at one time or another.
one was the group with the turtle ships they got here first.
The other group the first group I have no info on except that they were here. This is in the book of mormon.
QUOTE
after examining the Book of Mormon you find that this group of people went through Asia.
Ok. But there's genetic evidence that squarly indicates that no NAs share jewish dna.
If you would have just said "we believe it simply because we believe it" I would have respected that more.
If these unrightious brothers sowed wild oats on the way, why do no asian people have jewish dna?
Look, you are welcome to believe what you want. If you want to believe that an angel showed Joseph Smith gold tablets in NY and then took them away or something, and that the indians are lost jews, that's your right and I won't deny you that right.
I'm a christian. I recognize that my beliefs have ZERO backing in science or even archeology.
Why don't Mormons just admit the same?
In a way, I feel bad for Mormons. Your beliefs are so different from other religions, and your religion is new and so is under more scrutiny, and it also is contradictory to a lot of science. It puts you in a bad place. As a Mormon, do you ever read your book and read science and think "Wait a minute....?"
I know as a christian I question my faith, and have come to the conclusion that I believe simply becasue I believe, and there is no evidence for my beliefs. Nor do I need any.
However, there is no way in hell I'm voting for someone for president who believes that some Native Americans are lost Jews. I can't trust someone who disregards science so completely to make good policy. I also won't for creationists. It's too much ignorance in my opinion.
Thanks for your time. I find Mormonism fascinating.
I found a jewish historian and asked when they thought the first jews arrived in north america, and got a very brief answer, This answer would not please either the mormons or the skeptics.
He said the first historically provable jews to arrive in north america were portuguese jews who were sailors for the first european explorers. And the first thing they did in the new world was jump ship and run away from their masters, because they were horribly persecuted by the inquisition. They travelled to the american west coast very quickly, and they tried to find a new home in the local native population.
I think,
Between then and when the mormons started moving west is more than 300 years, plenty of time for the mormons to find a few indians with slightly jewish customs.
He said the first historically provable jews to arrive in north america were portuguese jews who were sailors for the first european explorers. And the first thing they did in the new world was jump ship and run away from their masters, because they were horribly persecuted by the inquisition. They travelled to the american west coast very quickly, and they tried to find a new home in the local native population.
I think,
Between then and when the mormons started moving west is more than 300 years, plenty of time for the mormons to find a few indians with slightly jewish customs.
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 09:04 PM)
Ok. But there's genetic evidence that squarly indicates that no NAs share jewish dna.
By your own previous statement, genetic evidence is not required. You said It is either/or.
Why do some genes flourish and others die out? Because that is the selective breeding of evolution. If the jewish genetic markers never caught on, then they disappeared.
QUOTE
I think,
Between then and when the mormons started moving west is more than 300 years, plenty of time for the mormons to find a few indians with slightly jewish customs.
Between then and when the mormons started moving west is more than 300 years, plenty of time for the mormons to find a few indians with slightly jewish customs.
Except there are no Native American indian tribes with jewish customs or ideas, and none with any jewish dna.
QUOTE
By your own previous statement, genetic evidence is not required. You said It is either/or.
No, I asked if you could provide either/or genetic or anthropological evidence. And you can't, because there is none.
QUOTE
Why do some genes flourish and others die out?
It is a real stretch to believe that a population of jews was here and left ZERO genetic material behind, as well as no archeological evidence. A real stretch. But that's fine for you. It's not for me.
I'm fascinated by this. It really is amazing. To you, it is more likely that jews journeyed all the way here and lived here, even though there is zero genetic evidence or archeological evidenc for this, and plenty to the contrary. To me, that indicates it is more likely that Joseph Smith was at best mistaken.
You HAVE to rationalize the evidence away, your entire way of life depends on it. Again, I mean no diserespect, and I support your right to believe as you do. I just find the psychology behind it so overwhelmingly worthy of note and study.
But who am I to criticize? I believe a guy rose from the dead. The only difference is that I'm not trying to support that belief with evidence, as there is none.
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 09:21 PM)
Except there are no Native American indian tribes with jewish customs or ideas, and none with any jewish dna.
Apparently, the portguese jewish sailors are historically documented fact.
Documented by jewish historians, at least.
QUOTE
You HAVE to rationalize the evidence away, your entire way of life depends on it. Again, I mean no diserespect, and I support your right to believe as you do. I just find the psychology behind it so overwhelmingly worthy of note and study.
I don't have to rationalize anything. I am not a mormon, jew, native american, or christian. I am discussing this because you are using a very convenient broken logic in order to come to a conclusion you want to find.
I am not a Mormon, and I don't know the High Priest of Mormonism. But I do know how to use Google, and maybe these will help:
Mormons apologize for mountain meadows massacre...
Book of Mormon changed in light of new DNA evidence.
So, check those out and hopefully that will answer some questions, or at least it's a good place to start looking for the answers.
Mormons apologize for mountain meadows massacre...
Book of Mormon changed in light of new DNA evidence.
So, check those out and hopefully that will answer some questions, or at least it's a good place to start looking for the answers.
QUOTE
Apparently, the portguese jewish sailors are historically documented fact.
Documented by jewish historians, at least.
Documented by jewish historians, at least.
Apparently, and most likely, they died in the wilderness or were killed by said indians, as there is no genetic or archeologic evidence to indicate that they survived at all.
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 09:31 PM)
Apparently, and most likely, they died in the wilderness or were killed by said indians, as there is no genetic or archeologic evidence to indicate that they survived at all.
Except for the various family trees of descendents of the sailors, evidence of survival.
QUOTE
Except for the various family trees of descendents of the sailors, evidence of survival.
Where are these family trees?
Who are their descendants today? Have any genetic tests been done to verify their claims?
The Mormons believe that jews came to the Americas long before then, before the BC-AD change over.
How do Mormons reconcile Gal 1:8 As the entire foundation of the LDS church is based on a new revelation given by an Angel.
Galatians 1:8 (NIV) 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Galatians 1:8 (NIV) 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 04:35 PM)
Where are these family trees?
Who are their descendants today? Have any genetic tests been done to verify their claims?
The Mormons believe that jews came to the Americas long before then, before the BC-AD change over.
Who are their descendants today? Have any genetic tests been done to verify their claims?
The Mormons believe that jews came to the Americas long before then, before the BC-AD change over.
Neo and Sara, I posted an article a few posts back that might help you both...it talks about how the Mormons have changed the book of Mormon because of new DNA evidence.
QUOTE (SunDogDayze @ Jan 23 2008, 02:30 PM)
I am not a Mormon, and I don't know the High Priest of Mormonism. But I do know how to use Google, and maybe these will help:
Mormons apologize for mountain meadows massacre...
Book of Mormon changed in light of new DNA evidence.
So, check those out and hopefully that will answer some questions, or at least it's a good place to start looking for the answers.
Mormons apologize for mountain meadows massacre...
Book of Mormon changed in light of new DNA evidence.
So, check those out and hopefully that will answer some questions, or at least it's a good place to start looking for the answers.
Interesting articals. I would comment further but Neognosis might get mad at me, as I am not a Mormon or chirstian.
Is Jesus Christ a Mormon?
QUOTE (greggK @ Jan 23 2008, 04:30 PM)
Is Jesus Christ a Mormon?
no he isn't. He also is not Christian. which means by what your trying to imply Christians are wrong as well.
just so you'll know Christ was Jewish.
QUOTE (danielost @ Jan 23 2008, 11:26 PM)
no he isn't. He also is not Christian. which means by what your trying to imply Christians are wrong as well.
just so you'll know Christ was Jewish.
just so you'll know Christ was Jewish.
If a christian is someone who believes in the rightness of all the things christ said and the truth of everything he is said to have done- and if christ believed the things he was saying while he was saying them and knew what he was doing, then why wasn't he a christian?
QUOTE (danielost @ Jan 23 2008, 12:40 PM)
Why don't all Germans take responsibility for the Holocaust.
It was also not completely the fault of the Mormons who committed this awful act.
let me explain if i can. bee can correct me where i go wrong.
The mountain meadows massacre took place during the so called Mormon rebellion. The only problem is the rebellion only took place back east in newspapers.
The president at the time (Taft I think) was convinced by several newspaper articles and some congressmen that the Mormons in Utah were going to rebel against the government. So he sent in troops to put down this revolt.
Because of poor timing on the side of the troops and an early snow storm. The only real action that took place was the burning of a couple of supply trains no one got hurt. and the Mormons then rounding up some blankets so that the federal troops wouldn't freeze to death.
The wagon train involved was from Missouri. With the memory of the mob death of Joesph smith still fresh. The local Mormons thought for some stupid reason that these people might be part of the federal troops or maybe spying for them not sure. They sent a messenger to salt lake for instructions but didn't wait for an answer.
so basically it was bad timing on part of the wagon train, and stupidity on the part of the local people.
as for the military action. both sides won. The federal government was allowed to put troops into salt lake to keep an eye on the Mormons but under the directions of Brigham young. The base was like 50 miles from salt lake. You've seen the base in almost every john Wayne calvary movie.
It was also not completely the fault of the Mormons who committed this awful act.
let me explain if i can. bee can correct me where i go wrong.
The mountain meadows massacre took place during the so called Mormon rebellion. The only problem is the rebellion only took place back east in newspapers.
The president at the time (Taft I think) was convinced by several newspaper articles and some congressmen that the Mormons in Utah were going to rebel against the government. So he sent in troops to put down this revolt.
Because of poor timing on the side of the troops and an early snow storm. The only real action that took place was the burning of a couple of supply trains no one got hurt. and the Mormons then rounding up some blankets so that the federal troops wouldn't freeze to death.
The wagon train involved was from Missouri. With the memory of the mob death of Joesph smith still fresh. The local Mormons thought for some stupid reason that these people might be part of the federal troops or maybe spying for them not sure. They sent a messenger to salt lake for instructions but didn't wait for an answer.
so basically it was bad timing on part of the wagon train, and stupidity on the part of the local people.
as for the military action. both sides won. The federal government was allowed to put troops into salt lake to keep an eye on the Mormons but under the directions of Brigham young. The base was like 50 miles from salt lake. You've seen the base in almost every john Wayne calvary movie.
..It was planned by the mormons as a act of revenge (against innocent people to steal from them after they killed them) the spy was the bishops son sent in to set the wagon train up.....this was planned as a act of revenge for the murder of John Smith ( who was a very corrupt man) he got himslef in some hot water in missouri and pissed off some folks ... historically speaking its very accurate, not to mention alot is taken from John E Lee's testimony, he was the only one who took any responsibiltry for this and was executed.....( the adopted son of Brigham Young....).
there is no doubt that the mormons (LDS) committed one of the worst crimes against humanity there are also survivors of this...
the issue today is that brigham young is purported to have known nothing of this yet planned it nothing went on in utah that he didnt know about and in the 1800 the mormons were rebelling against the goverment.... .....
I found about this from my mormon friend and we spent months researching and looking into it.... this is kept secret on purpose.......
l
QUOTE (Omnaka @ Jan 23 2008, 07:33 AM)
Hi again Bee Eff,
What do LDS Think Heavenly Mother's roll is in THe God Head, Besides Being Father's wife?
Love Omnaka.
Isn't that enough? Mormons believe men and women are absolutely equal in marriage. This not imply the same role, but absolutely equal. The Holy Spirit is not Heavenly Father's equal. Heavenly Father is all God is, it is all there is to be. Heavenly Mother is Heavenly Mother in the same sense. Commonly held belief, but not doctrine, is that we do not know much about her due to our inability to show proper respect as an entire species. Your question implies that being Heavenly Mother is in some way not enough, that it is somehow less than Heavenly Father? Do you really believe the role of wife and mother is somehow less than that of husband and father? The roles are equal.
What do LDS Think Heavenly Mother's roll is in THe God Head, Besides Being Father's wife?
Love Omnaka.
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 07:59 AM)
Do you folks believe that some Native Americans are actually a lost tribe of Jews?
If you do believe this, how do you explain things like DNA and archeological evidence that indicate that no native Americans have semitic origin?
If you do believe this, how do you explain things like DNA and archeological evidence that indicate that no native Americans have semitic origin?
We do believe that some of the Native Americans have some genetic ancestors that were Israelites. DNA is easily explained if there were a large number of other peoples populating the continent and if the Israelite descended people were small enough in number. Aside from this possibility I really don't know.
Archaeological evidence is not always concrete in nature, I doubt some of the stories told using the physical evidence, and even if it is true, it is possible that the evidence we have is not from the BoM groups. Is there really evidence of a mass Israelie exodus from Egypt? Do you really think that it occurred? If so did it really occur as the Bible states? What of the flood? Where is the Garden of Eden and its guards? I believe the Bible, but it is a similar question to your archaeological question.
QUOTE (evancj @ Jan 23 2008, 08:45 AM)
Bee Eff,
Glad you decided to start this thread. As it will hopefully clear up a lot of the ridiculous beliefs and unfounded prejudice I have seen posted about Mormons on this forum and around the Salt Lake City area. Some of the comments and beliefs about Mormons I have seen and heard would be hilarious; if not for the fact people actually believe them.
As an atheist it is natural (for me at least) to empathize with Mormons, as I have seen first hand, the out right lies, hatred, and fear of your beliefs. I have seen the so called “real Christians” picket and harass people of your faith as they leave the temple (I am positive many Christian worshipers would take up arms if they were accosted and harassed right out side of their own churches). I have seen people on this forum that want so badly to believe the anti Mormon propaganda that is out there, that they latch on to any number of lies and or spiteful remarks about Mormons, and then cling to them as if their lives depended on it. I have stood up in defense of Mormons many times in this forum, but because I’m an atheist I don’t think that you’re fellow christian take me very seriously. After all us atheist are empty soulless vessels devoid of and human feelings, or morality.
Anyway my question is; what is the best way to keep the Mormon missionaries and local ward members from visiting my home. Don’t get me wrong I like Mormons and have plenty of Mormon friends, but I would prefer to keep my interactions with them on a professional and social basis. All of my Mormon friends and neighbors understand and respect my aversion to religion, however it seems the local ward and missionaries aren’t getting the message. Any ideas?
Thank you for your comments.Glad you decided to start this thread. As it will hopefully clear up a lot of the ridiculous beliefs and unfounded prejudice I have seen posted about Mormons on this forum and around the Salt Lake City area. Some of the comments and beliefs about Mormons I have seen and heard would be hilarious; if not for the fact people actually believe them.
As an atheist it is natural (for me at least) to empathize with Mormons, as I have seen first hand, the out right lies, hatred, and fear of your beliefs. I have seen the so called “real Christians” picket and harass people of your faith as they leave the temple (I am positive many Christian worshipers would take up arms if they were accosted and harassed right out side of their own churches). I have seen people on this forum that want so badly to believe the anti Mormon propaganda that is out there, that they latch on to any number of lies and or spiteful remarks about Mormons, and then cling to them as if their lives depended on it. I have stood up in defense of Mormons many times in this forum, but because I’m an atheist I don’t think that you’re fellow christian take me very seriously. After all us atheist are empty soulless vessels devoid of and human feelings, or morality.
Anyway my question is; what is the best way to keep the Mormon missionaries and local ward members from visiting my home. Don’t get me wrong I like Mormons and have plenty of Mormon friends, but I would prefer to keep my interactions with them on a professional and social basis. All of my Mormon friends and neighbors understand and respect my aversion to religion, however it seems the local ward and missionaries aren’t getting the message. Any ideas?
I would suggest contacting the local Mission President, Stake President or Bishop and telling them your wishes. This should keep the missionaries away. I say should because there are overzealous people in religion in general, Mormons are not immune to this. If they will not stop speak again to the individual you contacted and they should deal with the problem. Given a long period of time, a few years the leadership may approach again and verify that your position is the same, but they should respect your wishes.
QUOTE (evancj @ Jan 23 2008, 09:20 AM)
What’s the deal with the garments?
The garment are a sacred clothing worn by members of the Church who have received their own endowments, the ordinances performed in the temple. The garment are warn against the skin and serve as a reminder of our covenants with God to remain Chaste, Perform service to our fellow men, and remain loyal to God. The garment can be compared to the priestly clothing worn by religious clergy in other religions, although rather than being an outward symbol it is a symbol to ourselves.
QUOTE (Supra Sheri @ Jan 23 2008, 05:48 PM)
..It was planned by the Mormons as a act of revenge (against innocent people to steal from them after they killed them) the spy was the bishops son sent in to set the wagon train up.....this was planned as a act of revenge for the murder of John Smith ( who was a very corrupt man) he got himslef in some hot water in missouri and pissed off some folks ... historically speaking its very accurate, not to mention alot is taken from John E Lee's testimony, he was the only one who took any responsibiltry for this and was executed.....( the adopted son of Brigham Young....).
there is no doubt that the mormons (LDS) committed one of the worst crimes against humanity there are also survivors of this...
the issue today is that brigham young is purported to have known nothing of this yet planned it nothing went on in utah that he didnt know about and in the 1800 the mormons were rebelling against the goverment.... .....
I found about this from my mormon friend and we spent months researching and looking into it.... this is kept secret on purpose.......
l
there is no doubt that the mormons (LDS) committed one of the worst crimes against humanity there are also survivors of this...
the issue today is that brigham young is purported to have known nothing of this yet planned it nothing went on in utah that he didnt know about and in the 1800 the mormons were rebelling against the goverment.... .....
I found about this from my mormon friend and we spent months researching and looking into it.... this is kept secret on purpose.......
l
last time I read/heard about the Holocaust. The Germans stole everything from the Jews including their dignity. and you make the massacre as being worse. I don't even think you can compare. How many wagon trains were wiped out by Indians. How many Indians villages were wiped out by the us military.
The state of arkansas had a law allowing for the murder of any mormons. A bounty law. This law was finally repealed in the 70's. I don't think anyone ever collected on this bounty but it was there.
don't try to make something that was truly a bad thing into something worse than it was.
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 09:59 AM)
But there's NO evidence, and evidence to the contrary. Genetic, archeological, etc. We already have a good idea where NAs came from, and even when they arrived in North America. And it wasn't from Israel.
There would be archeological evidence of the tradition they supposedly transerred. Not to mention that 10 jews living in North America pre-columbian times would probaby interbreed wtih the natives or reproduce themselves. Or are we to believe that they came here and lived long enough to transfer a culture to an indigenous population, but conveniently not long enough to reproduce with either theselves or the natives?
Are you seriously defending this insane idea?
Are you a Mormon, are you speaking for Mormons when you imply that you think it is possible that Jews came to North America before Scandanavians or Europeans?
There would be archeological evidence of the tradition they supposedly transerred. Not to mention that 10 jews living in North America pre-columbian times would probaby interbreed wtih the natives or reproduce themselves. Or are we to believe that they came here and lived long enough to transfer a culture to an indigenous population, but conveniently not long enough to reproduce with either theselves or the natives?
Are you seriously defending this insane idea?
Are you a Mormon, are you speaking for Mormons when you imply that you think it is possible that Jews came to North America before Scandanavians or Europeans?
You keep using the term Jew. 600BC was a time of Israelite, not necessarily Jew. I do not remember for sure, but it seems that the people of the BoM were not descended from Judah. I am sorry, I do not know enough about archaeology, etc. to answer your question fully. Yes we believe they were Hebrew in genetic ancestry, I do not know how diluted this ancestry is, nor how thorough the studies have been.
QUOTE (louie @ Jan 23 2008, 10:04 AM)
Why did smith have to talk into a hat to give his story.
I don't know, this is a part of the story, but not all of it. He did use the seer stones, a Urum and Thumim, maybe they worked better that way, I don't know. Why do the jews wear the prayer scrolls and place them on their doors? Why did Samuel dump oil all over a guy to make him king? Why cast lots for royalty? Why carve a snake and place it on top of a rod? I don't know.
QUOTE (Omnaka @ Jan 23 2008, 10:12 AM)
Who is the next Prophet for your Religion, and How is he Picked?
Love Omnaka
Love Omnaka
The next Prophet is typically the Apostle next in seniority. This is the manner in which we believe the early Church was run after the structure Christ established. The Prophet would have been Peter in Biblical time following Christs ascension, and his successor was the next in line.
QUOTE (frig @ Jan 23 2008, 11:07 AM)
Since the Doctrine and Covenants says not to imbibe in hot drinks, why isn't iced coffee allowed?
When questioned concerning what was meant by Hot drinks the answer was Tea and Coffee. The LDS people today still struggle with aspects of the Word of Wisdom.QUOTE (frig @ Jan 23 2008, 11:07 AM)
Why is is that men in heaven will have multiple wives, but the women don't get to have multiple husbands?
I don't know why this is. Doctrinally, I do not know. Also, there is no mandate for multiple wives in heaven, and nothing suggesting that I or any other man with one wife will ever have more.My opinion and in no way doctrine. It is my opinion that it has to do with genetics and procreation. Women can have one child every nine months, men are capable of impregnating more frequently. From a purely scientific perspective, this appears to be the logical conclusion.
QUOTE (frig @ Jan 23 2008, 11:07 AM)
Why do men get into heaven free of charge, but women have to be "pulled thru the veil" by their husbands?
You do not understand the concept. A man will not be capable of going any higher than a woman in heaven, if a man is not married, he will be limited in the same manner. Marriage and family are necessary to achieve our highest potential in LDS theology.QUOTE (frig @ Jan 23 2008, 11:07 AM)
What's the point in Mormon beer (Utah lower alochol content beer) since mormons can't drink anyway?
This is a legislative question. The LDS Church does not regulate alchohol consumption by those that are not of our faith.
QUOTE (evancj @ Jan 23 2008, 12:11 PM)
I’m not a Mormon but I live in Utah,
I can say I know Mormons who won’t drink coffee but will drink hot coco. I have never heard that they can’t drink hot drinks; I thought it was more of a no caffeine kind of thing than a hot thing.
I can say I know Mormons who won’t drink coffee but will drink hot coco. I have never heard that they can’t drink hot drinks; I thought it was more of a no caffeine kind of thing than a hot thing.
The caffiene thing is a debated issue among Mormons. I myself prescribe to the idea that it is the caffiene, so I also avoid Pepsi, Coke and other caffienated beverages.
QUOTE (Supra Sheri @ Jan 23 2008, 01:20 PM)
why doesn't LDS except responsibility for the mountain meadows massacre???
We accept that members of the Church committed the Mountain Meadows Massacre. The Church itself was not responsible. Brigham Young did not order it, that is speculation and rumor intended to discredit the Church.
QUOTE (SunDogDayze @ Jan 23 2008, 02:30 PM)
I am not a Mormon, and I don't know the High Priest of Mormonism. But I do know how to use Google, and maybe these will help:
Mormons apologize for mountain meadows massacre...
Book of Mormon changed in light of new DNA evidence.
So, check those out and hopefully that will answer some questions, or at least it's a good place to start looking for the answers.
Mormons apologize for mountain meadows massacre...
Book of Mormon changed in light of new DNA evidence.
So, check those out and hopefully that will answer some questions, or at least it's a good place to start looking for the answers.
Thank you. I didn't check the sites, but the deseret News is probably reliable. The second, I do not know for sure about it, and didn't check it.
QUOTE (Neognosis @ Jan 23 2008, 02:35 PM)
Where are these family trees?
Who are their descendants today? Have any genetic tests been done to verify their claims?
The Mormons believe that jews came to the Americas long before then, before the BC-AD change over.
Who are their descendants today? Have any genetic tests been done to verify their claims?
The Mormons believe that jews came to the Americas long before then, before the BC-AD change over.
Could I request you move this to its own thread, it seems to be taking up the thread and is blatantly not what I stated in the OP. I requested that debates occur outside the thread so as to keep the thread away from the type of debate that you want to do. It's a free world though, and the moderators will decide if you are out of line, so do as you will.
QUOTE (Irish @ Jan 23 2008, 02:37 PM)
How do Mormons reconcile Gal 1:8 As the entire foundation of the LDS church is based on a new revelation given by an Angel.
Galatians 1:8 (NIV) 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
We believe we preach the same gospel. Revelations are a part of the same gospel. Moses believed in the same gospel. Form may change, but the gospel does not.
Galatians 1:8 (NIV) 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
QUOTE (greggK @ Jan 23 2008, 03:30 PM)
Is Jesus Christ a Mormon?
You mean does Christ follow his gospel? I hope so, I would hate to follow a hypocritical leader.
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