today i saw two preschoolers fighting over a toy firetruck. It reminded me of two monkeys fighting over a single fruit. i decided to to a little experiment. i asked my friends as well as some students i did not know if they have at the very least thought of commiting a violent act in their life if not already have commited one. All of them said yes. are humans born violent?

I don't think so. Obviously some people are more genetically aggressive than others, but I think your childhood and adolescence determines how violent of a person you will be. I believe there is strong reason to believe that pain and fear are the cause of violence. There is a distinct difference between certain kinds of violence however. Some are motivated by pain, fear, anger, hate, while others are motivated by greed. I personally believe that the first, rather than greed, is a more primal cause of violence. I dont really have any data to back up what I'm saying, these are just observations I've made over the years.

They aren't born violent at all, or anything else like that. I like to think of a new born as a tabula rasa (blank slate). Everything and everyone the baby encounters during his/her lifetime put something on that slate. Thus, a violent person has had a lot of violent thoughts and/or actions as a part of his slate.

Of course, there are some genetic mutations that lead people to be naturally more aggressive (I think it's due to an extra chromosome => XXY).

I think humans are born with a few inherent (and primitive) instincts.

The firetruck for example...two examples right there. That one kid attempted to take the firetruck (humans are naturally greedy) and the other wouldn't give it up (humans are naturally possessive/materialistic/defensive of their property/possessions).

And yeah...violence is one of those traits. We like to fight...when we're not at war with another country we're fighting each other politically, we're fighting each other through competitive sports, we're fighting each other over a chessboard, we're fighting each other in WoW.

Personally, i was born laid back. i think humans become violent as a result of interaction with other humans and situations in life.

Violence is taught that is the point I have been trying to make in another topic. We are more tolerant of violence today, beating someone up for their name brand shoes or a few dollars is just accepted as things that happen and won't even make the news because its condoned so much that people don't care anymore. They just say its life. Well its not just life it is wrong and we have looked over it so many times that the message is it is ok, When we choose to stay silent and not speak up against violence we are condoning it. Violence is taught to children at a very young age through tv ,movies ,video games and we allowing it to enter our homes are teaching the kids that its ok and accepted in todays society. How can we stand up and say for example zero tolerence in our schools when that is what we teach is tolerence. I don't have the answer how we are to fix the problem just admiting there is a problem would be a step in the right direction,, Always a pleasure

• People can become jaded even after minimal exposure to media violence
• As a result, some individuals exhibit a greater acceptance of violence and a decrease in empathy and concern for victims of violence.
  • Kids who are high television viewers are more likely than low television viewers to exhibit symptoms such as anxiety, trauma, and post-traumatic stress
  • When kids view scary events in the media, they become more likely to fear those events in the real world.
  • Fear induced by media in childhood is likely to linger into adulthood
  
  http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~ker/scholarly_research.htm

I agree with you about how beating someone up for clothes/shoes should be on the news, no matter how small. But I don't agree about what you said about how we are allowing our kids to believe that violence is ok. Everyone's family that I know of does not in any way promote violence or believe that violence should be accepted as a part of life. I think the bigger issue is teaching kids about how violence is only a part of video game and movies and not a part of real life.

Well theres a good chance of someone is violent they probably were caused pain by a parent or sibling as a child.

What happened to original sin? It seems you don't want to blame it on man's inherant evil nature due to eating fruit six thousand years ago.

I think that humans are an inherently violent life form yes. Or at least have the propensity for violence. . Organisms need resources to survive – sometimes we take those resources with force. You need to have an aggressive part of the self – say for defending your children from a dangerous animal/person.

We are also inherently altruistic - we just need to foster that side more in society. Just because something is normal or inherent doesn’t mean we as a society have to condone it. Most of the violence you see doesn’t need to happen for anyone to survive.

i think we are born only with the instinct of survival. maybe it was killing those kids to share the firetruck, so one of them had to go

We're born selfish and demanding... Many kids who've never heard their parents yell or fight will still have temper tantrums if they don't get their way. Children need to be taught to share and behave. Goodness isn't a given when it comes to humanity.

Too me thats like saying that we're born into sin which I dont buy that either. Violence is something that you learn.

Whenever I hear this question, I always ask what humans are being compared to in their violence. Animals? Aliens? The Bible? A fantasy race of peace-loving entities that has not been discovered yet?

Once that question is answered we can work on the whole 'are humans violent inherently' thing.

War Come and Go .. you think we are not violent. think again.
Crimes is found everywhere. everyone has sinned.

All mammals have a biological propensity for violence to some degree, depending on how you define "violence". Nothing would survive in nature without some territorial agressiveness whether it be over food, reproduction or heirarchy (which are rather all intrinsically bound). Human violence is generally (aside from some neurological conditions) and offshoot of these biological instincts.

And as I've already showed you as well we live in the least violent era of US history this century. Violent crimes are way, way down in the US especially for kids age 12-17. Here:

And if a video game website seems biased then let's look at actual statistics:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/house2.htm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/vsx2.htm

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/firearmnonfatalno.htm

And most importantly:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/offage.htm

Violent crime rates amongst kids has steadily declined more than 60% since 1993 (oddly enough coinciding with the rise of high end consoles) and is almost half of what it was in the seventies. So yes I will say there is ways one can say otherwise to your contention that violent media leads to violent societies. The facts bear that out. The alarmists and self-righteuous moralists' "facts" do not.

Obviously violent media is not causing any upswing in violent crime.

I don't know I depends on the personality they inherit. My first one was a biter I didn't think I would ever get him to stop. He would walk up and bite for no reason I could see.
The second one was more mellow. All young animals fight over resourses, but I wouldn't say they are violent just a bit greedy. You have to teach them to share.

here's my thoughts on humans and are we born violent. No, we're not born violent. But some of us a born with a genetic instinct that makes us better fighters or better killers than most. I've always been extremely good at fighting even as a child. I'm not violent person at all, but I have gotten into a lot of fights. I think it depends on the person whether they're violent or not sometimes though or it's all about what you see and encounter as a baby and as you grow older. I fight to protect and defend people and their lives. Others fight to destroy it naturall. This is known as the Yin-Yang factor. With every darknesss there must be a light and with every Lightness there must be a dark. Meaning of course, without one you can't have the other. Makes sense to me of course. Even samurai of Japan understood these. Most of them were violent at all. I mean heck, if they were walking down the street in town, they would actually introduce them selves and talk. The battles were just what they followed into as orders of the emperor or village leaders. So naturally there's everyone has violent genes in them but some have more than others. Those who desire peace and happiness, they won't fight at all but follow the warriors into battle. For the lightness of course. Then you have those who want it all and have that "16 I'm anger at my father" type of personality about them. So yeah...we are all born with it. Just some more than others.

Of course, if someone hit you would you hit them back? would you kill someone who was trying to kill you or your family? that's violence or you could call it survival, it comes in varying degrees, if your children we're starving would you fight or even kill someone to get them food? i know i would.

The old saying "Children live what they learn" is very true. Unfortunately, children don't just learn from their parents. There are other influences.. Like other children who won't share, won't behave, like to hit, bite, or result to other forms of violence. Example: My daughter, when very small was very laid back, very go-with-the-flow. She never raised her hand to hit, stomped her foot, had a temper tantrum or even raised her voice in anger. She wasn't afforded the opportunity of being around other children for extended periods of time. I have been a stay at home mom, and felt no need for a babysitter. Also, where we lived, we didn't know very many people, and of those few, only one or two had children. Things were peaceful and harmonious in our household, no violence from parents or children, the children hadn't ever been spanked as a form of discipline, etc. However, when my daughter began school, she saw other children and their different ways of behavior. Less than a month after she began Kindergarten, she began to get very unruly. She would hit, bite, kick, scream at her brothers, throw the worst temper tantrums, etc. I had never seen her act in such a manner. I volunteered at the school, so I saw the behavior of the other kids there. They would flip out, go crazy in the classroom... I would see them on the playground hitting one another, etc. The only conclusion I could come to was that she saw this and emulated it. The change in her was like night and day. Also, my sons, who are younger than my daughter began behaving similarly. It started a chain, so to speak.

There was one particular boy in her class who would talk about violent acts. After speaking with him on quite a few occasions, I came to the conclusion that this was the norm in his home. He asked me if I had ever seen someone get killed. It threw me for a loop, but he continued to talk and said that he had. He saw his uncle get killed by someone else. I know that this poor child was just talking to me about this as a way to cope. I couldn't help but think that if he were in a different environment, he wouldn't know the realities of murder or violence (or at least not to that degree). Incidently, this is the same child who kicked and punched the teacher one day when he became angry.... in front of the whole class. Would he have ever done that if he hadn't seen this type of violence in and around his home? I don't think so. It came to light after what he'd done to the teacher, that his father had been beating his mother, him, and his siblings.

We are not animals we are intelligent human beings and we are taught violene. What seperates us from the animals? Haven't you ever heard that phrase, Always a pleasure

I think that some people were born non-violent and are taught violence, while others are born violent and it is very hard teaching them to not be.

We're primates. We have impulses that in given situations of extreme tension always arise as they do in every other social mammal. There are endless studies that show direct behaviorial correlations that we share with all other primates. We are animals.



Again, this depends on what exactly you're talking about. If you're talking about completely apathetic sociopaths, like a serial killer, then you're talking about an extremely rare case. There are both social and genetic factors that come into play in those very rare situations. The general human populace though? There are inherent genetic territorial foundations that exist in all social mammals that are intrinsic to their survival. There also inherent genetic empathic foundations that allow social mammals to interact. Those traits manifest in many different ways in social situations. There is no doubt that abuse or cultural indoctrination can make those traits manifest in irrational violent acts towards, say, another race or culture. The price of having such a big brain is we can rationalize the empathy right out of our minds.

I disagree - Have you ever seen a baby chase a bug and try to eat it? We are very much animals. If you want to say we are the most intelligent animals, ok I can live with that, but we're part of this world.

In nature, no animal survives without violence. Sure, cows just eat grass, but I've seen them freak out and stomp a dog to death. People are no different.

A small kid will poke a pet's eye out with a stick out of curiousity.

My opinion is the exact opposite of yours. I believe we are born violent and must be taught compassion...

Humans are not "born" violent or non-violent. They need a motive to become violent. The motive can be rational or irrational, but it has to exist. Violence doesn't happen just as a reflex. It happens as the result of cognitive thought.

I think we may be missing each other when it comes to the definition of violence. I don't limit violence to aggression - we are natural creatures and we are born with survival instincts. Hunting and self-defense are both violence in my lexicon.

YEs we're all born with the Savage Instincts of the Omnivorous mammal. Males are born with the magnificent Alpha-Male concept. The Male is to Fox the famale. End of story.

To answer the original question are humans born violent i would say no, not seen many babies born swinging fists, if the original question is are humans born with the ability to be violent i would say yes.

There are different forms of violence, from unprovoked attacking to defending oneself. You have to therefore look at the causes of violence; greed, showing dominance and defence. All humans will posses the ability to be violent, this does not mean we all will be as it is ciircumstantial and depends on the person, some people will use violence more readily than others but all possess the ability to do so.

But we ARE animals, Sandee. The only thing that supposedly set us apart from the rest of the animals is the ability to reason, and that's becoming a thinner and thinner line every day.

Humans are born with the natural instincts to survive. These include violent reactions to a threat, willingness to kill for food, etc. These things can be enhanced or played down with environment and parenting, but they are part of the biological make up of humans at birth.

You maybe a primate, but thats debatable as full well know Capeo, we have impulses and instincts, violence is a basic instinct, which is prevailant in most life forms, what seperate us from them is intellect and reasoning. Thats why although its an instincitive behaviour, we as human can control it, those who find it difficult to do so, usually its down to the enviroment, they are in and th upbringing and their moral fabric.

For example here in the UK we have a huge problem with young teens killing each other and adults in gang type violence, often weaker people are picked on, in sme case disable poeple have been killed, but not before being humilated in the worst circumstances, this type of behaviour is in us in a small qauntity, its one of our lowest funtions as humans, but with out religion, or a moral filter in society, these baser lower instincts become more prevailant and as a result society at large becomes more violent.

The fact we have a large brian, and intellect, sets us apart from animals, who may behave inthe same way in regard to terrortorial aspect, but true human potential is to over come our basic intincts and live by our true potential, which is further helped by having moral filtering systems in place in society, and religion fill this void, where there is lack of religion or belief in god, there is usuall more basic intincts at play, like rape, violence, killing, gang violence etc, these are behaviour capable by humans, but not they true function, because we have the ability to get above our basic intincts.

We are not animal then are we, if what seperates us is intelligence, when was the last time you had an ape at school or university. Yeah we have basic instincts to survive, but these are our lowest functions, to give them presidence over what else we have is wrong, those who are controled by the lower functions, are lacking inelligence, education, and morals. All the latter make us human and superior to all other life forms.

I feel to answer this question "are humans born violent" we must work out what you mean by Violent. One could say that Humans and our close relitive the Chimp are the only one with this, I have not heard of any other aninmal killing just for the fun.
I agree with what was stated earlier and that is we are born with a primal act of defence, protect whats ours and gain take what we need. I know this will start a aguement but i think it is the other way round, we teach our kids how not to be violent.
as E.G I know a 4 year old boy that is biting everone to make them drop the thing he wants. No one else in the family bites so he was not taught this violent behaver but his mother is teaching him this is not right.

i would agree we are animals. Just with a higher degree of mental development. All animals have intelligence, primates have a higher intelligence than say a hamster so does this mean they cant be classed as animals?

you saying when was the last time you saw an ape at school is irrelevant. Are u implying that they have no intelligence at all so are different to us?

The question was originally i believe are humans violent. regardless of whether you can supposedly control it we all possess the ability to be violent and so are born with it.

No denying that fact.

It's not debatable it's scientific fact.



That is so blantantly false it's laughable. Northern Europe and Scandanavia have the highest concentration of atheists in the western world and have the lowest rates of violent crime in the western world.

exactly, very valid point that i agree with. We teach our kids not to be violent as this comes naturally to them as it plays a vital part of our early evolution. Therefore we all possess the ability to be violent regardless of whether you are actually violent in your lifetime, the capacity still remains.

Ofcourse evolution is debatable, by nature of its title its all supposition at micro and macro levels, but we aint gonna go there now, we can continue our past debate on evolution if you wish, as long as some poeple dont get abusive in order to get the thread closed, i know it was not you, they know who they are.

As for the scandanavian thing, thats laughable, because only in the west do aeithiest exist, on a global scale aethiests are an anomaly, becaue the majority believe in god one way or another. Also, if these aethiests are not violent, are at peace with themselves and their lifes are full, then why do they have the highest suicide rates amongst teenagers, they have the highest in sweden, and its one the most liberated countries, you can do anythign you want, but these aethiest seemed to feel empty, that young men and women take their lifes, although one would think they are liberate and free, enjoy life and have no religion, so why then the void. Wat you call lowest rates, are still quite high rates of crime, its just when you compare them with like of UK, US and otehr european countries, its seems less.

Yes, we ARE animals. Intelligence does not separate us. Reasoning does. But, technically we are controlled by our lower functions just as any other primate would be, as morals are based in instinct. Education is seen in any animal example, they are taught by their parents and society, and learn just like a human. It's different subject matter, is all. Intelligence is something that can only be measured by comparing it to other human beings, and we are still having problems figuring that out, so that holds absolutely no water in this argument.

I don't want to debate whether we are superior to all other life forms (all I will say is that is typically arrogant) because that could take us way off topic. We are animals, biologically, and are born with the same survival instincts (that include what we have deemed as violence) as any other animal.

We are not born with ability to be violents, its not nature, its a result of nurture. there is the ability there on a biological basis, but further enhanced upon by enviroment and upbringing.

As for animals, they have degrees of intelligence which are low, and appropriate for their species and animal in general, but to compare them to humans is a mistake, ofcourse animal have intelligence which is very limited and restricted to their enviroments and specie, but human have intelligence on a whole different level, we utilise animals for our benefit, its not the other way round is it. Im implying that the intelligence of human, is different to the intellligence of animal, so i ask again, will you ever see a monkey at uni, doing what we do, even if they are evolving, which they have been doing so allegedly.

We are humans, not animals.




Babies are born like a clean slate, with nothing written on it, its basic funtions are intact, what is taugt to them and their eviroment, will determine usually they levels of violence.

No we are not animals, we are humans. We can reason, we can use intellect etc. You say we are controlled by our lower functions, i agree to an extent we are, this where religions and a moral filtering system comes in to play, lack of religion, means that we have a violent society, riddled with problems, such as sexual promiscuity, etc. the latter are society operating on lower functions, they are no different to animals, but humans are suppose to rise above their basic and lower functions, which animals cannot do even if they tried, this is what seperate us apart, we can rise above them and disgard our lower functions at large and live to our true potential as humans, not animals.

different levels of intelligence do not seperate animals. Animals are animals regardless of intelligence. whether it be the animal with the highest intelligence, humans, or the animal with the lowest.

are all cars not classed as cars regardless of speed or performance??

i disagree with the nuture aspect of this topic. Nuture may affect the frequency or reasons for violence due to experience. But the fact is, all humans can be violent, it is a part of our evolution and is a natural response in certain circumstances. To say otherwise is to say people never get angry, which is a prerequisite to violence.

you mention Babies are born like a clean slate, with nothing written on it, its basic funtions are intact, what is taugt to them and their eviroment, will determine usually they levels of violence.

This is not the topic being discussed. We are not discussing levels of violence. just the fact all babies are born with the ability to be violent

You misunderstand, intelligence is not what animals posses, intelligence, is to be able to fly to the moon, create, innovate, imaginative and create solutions. What animals do is on a lower level, they only operate on lower functions, which humans can too, the difference is we can rise above them and disgard those lower functions, tell which animal can do anything like us.

All cars are cars i agree, we create them and they all have certain lower functions, but they are inanimate objects firstly and secondly, for them to rise above their lower functions, we humans have to make them do that, for example, get the top speed out of them. Which animal does that.

Babies, are not born violent, they brains and not fully developed etc and what they eviroment is and the upbringing determines their outlook on violence , regardless of the level. They are not born looking to kick sh** out of the next mans baby are they. They are cute cuddly things , innocent and pure, only we make them what them become later, by the enviroment, upbringing, and lack of moral, if they become violent individuals.

If we're so smart why are we killing our life support system, and impacting all living things on this planet?
Humans are *classified* as animals...whether you like it or not.



Haven't you ever heard the phrase -- the truth is out there?
Non human animals are smarter than us... We could learn much from observing nature. Our arrogance and need for domination won't permit us to really take a good look around and see which species is the most destructive to this planet. There's only one, and it's us.

There is a "rage gene". Rage is violence.



Why does motive have to exist?

sorry to point this out but you are contradicting your self. Animals do have intelligence, just at a lower ability to ourselves. You said animals do not have intelligence yet a few lines later say what animals do is on a lower level. surely this is a lower level of intelligence then? Primates have a hierachial system within their societies and use tools to find food, this is an undeniable proof of intelligence as they have learnt this themsleves.

the point i made about the cars is the same, regardless of the performance a car is a car. similarily regardless of their performance an animal is an animal, humans are merely more advanced animals.

read my posts, i never said babies are born violent. i said they are born with the ability to be violent, as in during their lifetime, not initially haha. I think your confusing my point they are born with the ability to be violent with time. i do not mean ability to be violent immediatley haha funny mental picture

Are you serious? Do you actually research anything before such wild claims? Firstly, the scandanavin countries are considered part of the west as is Belgium, Germany, Holland and such. If, by the west, you meant the US then you're even more wrong as the US has one of the lowest populations of atheists of all industrial countries. Let try to dispel all the myths you put forth in that short paragraph. Here's a list of the countries by percentage atheist/agnostic/non-believer.

Sweden 8,986,000 46 - 85% 4,133,560 - 7,638,100
Vietnam 82,690,000 81% 66,978,900
Denmark 5,413,000 43 - 80% 2,327,590 - 4,330,400
Norway 4,575,000 31 - 72% 1,418,250 - 3,294,000
Japan 127,333,000 64 - 65% 81,493,120 - 82,766,450
Czech Republic 10,246,100 54 - 61% 5,328,940 - 6,250,121
Finland 5,215,000 28 - 60% 1,460,200 - 3,129,000
France 60,424,000 43 - 54% 25,982,320 - 32,628,960
South Korea 48,598,000 30 - 52% 14,579,400 - 25,270,960
Estonia 1,342,000 49% 657,580
Germany 82,425,000 41 - 49% 33,794,250 - 40,388,250
Russia 143,782,000 24 - 48% 34,507,680 - 69,015,360
Hungary 10,032,000 32 - 46% 3,210,240 - 4,614,720
Netherlands 16,318,000 39 - 44% 6,364,020 - 7,179,920
Britain 60,271,000 31 - 44% 18,684,010 - 26,519,240
Belgium 10,348,000 42 - 43% 4,346,160 - 4,449,640
Bulgaria 7,518,000 34 - 40% 2,556,120 - 3,007,200
Slovenia 2,011,000 35 - 38% 703,850 - 764,180
Israel 6,199,000 15 - 37% 929,850 - 2,293,630
Canada 32,508,000 19 - 30% 6,176,520 - 9,752,400
Latvia 2,306,000 20 - 29% 461,200 - 668,740
Slovakia 5,424,000 10 - 28% 542,400 - 1,518,720
Switzerland 7,451,000 17 - 27% 1,266,670 - 2,011,770
Austria 8,175,000 18 - 26% 1,471,500 - 2,125,500
Australia 19,913,000 24 - 25% 4,779,120 - 4,978,250
Taiwan 22,750,000 24% 5,460,000
Spain 40,281,000 15 - 24% 6,042,150 - 9,667,440
Iceland 294,000 16 - 23% 47,040 - 67,620
New Zealand 3,994,000 20 - 22% 798,800 - 878,680
Ukraine 47,732,000 20% 9,546,400
Belarus 10,311,000 17% 1,752,870
Greece 10,648,000 16% 1,703,680
North Korea 22,698,000 15%* 3,404,700
Italy 58,057,000 6 - 15% 3,483,420 - 8,708,550
Armenia 2,991,000 14% 418,740
China 1,298,848,000 8 - 14%* 103,907,840 - 181,838,720
Lithuania 3,608,000 13% 469,040
Singapore 4,354,000 13% 566,020
Uruguay 3,399,000 12% 407,880
Kazakhstan 15,144,000 11 - 12% 1,665,840 - 1,817,280
Mongolia 2,751,000 9% 247,590
Portugal 10,524,000 4 - 9% 420,960 - 947,160
USA 293,028,000 3 - 9% 8,790,840 - 26,822,520

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

Here's a list of suicide rates by country:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...by_suicide_rate

You'll find sweden comes in at 32 not number 1. The US is 45. Sweden had 2.2 more suicides/100,000 people in 2005. Not very significant. You'll also note most of the countries that top that list are impoverished, dangerous or corrupt. Number 1, Lithuania, with a whopping 38/100,000 suicide rate is one of the most religious countries on the planet. Number 2 Belarus is almost as religious and has a 35/100,000 rate. So, you're completely wrong on that front.

How about violent crime in the world:

#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
#26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
#27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
#28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
#29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
#30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
#31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
#32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
#33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
#34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
#36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people
#37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
#38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
#39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
#40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
#41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
#42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
#45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
#48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
#49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
#50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
#51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
#52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
#53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
#54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
#55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
#56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
#57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
#59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people

You'll note the countries tend to get far less religious as one goes down the list with scandanavian and northern european countries along the bottom half. The big standout is russia and that's where poverty and corruption come in. You'll find the correlation between violence and corruption and a high suicide rate rather unsurprising.

So there's facts as opposed to your assumptions.

I agree with that, and i wouldn't be surprised if the number born violent is alarmingly high.

again i think your confusing born violent with the ability to be violent in their life.

no babies are born violent, but all are born with the ability to be violent. are babies not born with the ability to experience joy either??

course they are. that doesnt mean they are joyful but they have the ability to experience joy in their lifetime.

Wiki is not a credible source, been here before and most of you know it.

Still my point stands, that Sweden has the highest suicide rate inthe west for teenage suicides. America does not have a large populace of aethiests, but it does have a high crime rate, like the UK, which does have a hig rate of aethiest. my point was this, when there is lack of religion, you will find hig crime rates, whether ones is lower than the other comparison in the west, is futile, because they are still quite high, it just so happens that in scandanavia, its lower than the UK and US. But still high for crime, largely becuse society is immoral, although the US is largely christian, not practising christian at large, just christians by name, religions is not implemented in their daily lifes, and secular system is adopted in society, which is a direct result of lack of religion, hence all the probs in the west with sex, rape, drugs, violence etc. We are losing our morals, there is no filter in society, especailly in the UK, teenagers have lost direction, free to do as they wish at schools with not discpline implemented or a religious upbringing, to repsect and be tolerant etc.

Also if you look at saudi, where they dont implemt islam fully as they should, but still do enough, the crime rate is virtually zero. Thats peace and freedom.

Erm, i don't think i am confusing it. We all have the ability to be violent in our lives.

How would you class being born violent then?