IMO Satan is just a tool used to scare you into following the path of God..but like I said, thats just what I personally believe

Here's the thing...

Satan is meant to be dead against God

He is meant to be evil..the complete opposite of God or Jesus

He doesn't want anyone to follow Gods path

He doesn't want you to get close to God

He wants us all to follow his way and go against God

Well some do say, if you do not serve God you must be serving Satan...!


So I wondered....If Satan is all for turning you away from God, going against God every way possible...and turns out you do in fact turn against God...then why would Satan punish you for being a sinner?? that does not make a lick of sense

He wants you to disobey god..he wants you to turn your back on God and shut God out of your life...so punishing you in hell doesn't add up...

If you were like Satan and you hated God, you went against all God stood for and then some...why on earth would you punish anyone for doing exactly what you wanted? Why punish anyone for sinning against the very God you hate? It doesn't make any sense...you would want to piss God off!!

AND further more...those of you may well claim - Satan is working for God...UMMM thats what i find hard to take in, because if I where like Satan, and I was dead against God, then i wouldn't work for God...not a mission..in fact out of sheer badness, I would do the opposite and REWARD those that went against my no1 enemy

I have thought about that so many times, which is why I'm not worried if Christianity is true, because Hell will be one big party

I was reading a book once it was fiction of course & in it Satan talking about why would he torture people
He’s already got them away from God so why bother?

They can do whatever they want here play some golf, watch some TV Etc I never got over that too funny!

The Satan of the book had a point..

My view.The basics. Satan/lucifer was an angel who was very charismatic. He thought he could do a better job of gocverning heaven than god diid (maybe all that flattery about his beauty and abilities went to his head) He fomented a rebellion in heaven , part of which was also aimed at planets with sentient creations of god He won over one third of the angels. Only the inhabitants of earth believed his lie that they could immediately attain the knowledge of good and evil with out a consequent cost to them. Thus earth /eden became corrupted allowing in death decay and destroying both the natural state of humanity as created by god, and the spiritual connection between humans and god. Satan and his angels were exiled to earth but satan at least was still able to travel to heaven and debate with god (as in the trials of job.
Satan still believes his method of governance is the better way, despite the obvious costs to humanity. For him the knowledge of good and evil is worth the associted costs. If we had stayed under gods' guidance we eventually have attained the same knowledge but gradually as our spiritual/moral knowledge developed so that we could use the knowledge wisely and effectively.

So all your points in bold are correct.

However, there is no scriptural support for the concept which evolved after a few centuries of church development, of hell, or that satan will control it. This is an an amalgamation of greek legends with the churches need to create a more scary afterlife. When correctly translated, the bible consistently paints a picture where peole who die go to sleep ( astate of unconsciousness similar to that of non existence)
They are eventually ressurected in two stages. Those who accept the sacrifice of jesus and remain loyal to gods wishes are restored to an edenic state on a recreated earth, Those who do not, are killed in a rain and lake of fire, along with the devil and his angels

So, as a biblically based christian, there is no biblical evidence at all for satan being in charge, or even for the existence of hell and eternal danmnation.

Concepts such as purgatory and refinements on the nature of hell were added many centuries later, by other writers, and are a completely fictional construct.Eg dantes inferno and the different levels of hell.

None of this is meant to tell people what to believe, just that if they want to follow a christian belief it is probably important to establish biblical truths first. Of course catholics have long said that papal/church authority is just as valid as anything in the bible, and for centuries banned the possession of a bible by anyone outside of the clergy. During that time many alterations to early christian beliefs and practices were introduced, validated, and became accepted on historical precedent after centuries of use.

If catholic you may well chose to accept papal/church revisions of original christian principles and practices, and to believe in hell and eternal damnation, but as you noted it has created inherent contradictions into what was originally a coherent and believable series of events.

Ever read Memnoch the Devil? I rather like Anne Rice's version of what transpired.

Memnoch (Satan, who doesn't like being called Satan btw) is basically God's rebellious son. As life evolves and later humans. The angels watch in fascination as when the humans die they release an energy which becomes trapped, floating endlessly between realms. Memnoch pleads with God to allow the humans' souls to enter Heaven to which God refuses and banishes Memnoch to Earth (he was being really annoying).

After some convincing God and Memnoch come to a compromise. Memnoch begins rounding up the souls and establishes Seoul (Hell) where people (everybody, man, woman, child, faithful, good, evil, religious, agnostic, everyone) have to prove themselves worthy of rising to Heaven.

So Memnoch isn't really a bad guy...he's just got a really sh**ty job to do that no one else wants.

I haven't read it in a while but that basically it.

Good book I thought it was intresting that Memnoch wanted Lestat to take over for him.. Intresting idea.

AHA...nice one..

But here's the thing...

If Christianity dropped the idea of Satan from their religion and done away with the idea of Satan...would that make their faith seem more fake??

IMO no it wouldn't ...here is why it wouldn't ...

Any Christian can continue being a great follower of Jesus / God without believing there is a satan...

if God came to them and told them, there was no satan...I don't believe for a sec these people would all of a sudden drop their faith..in fact they would be as strong as they ever where

think about it...look at me, I follow God and I don't believe in Satan or demons for that matter. I don't need a scare tactic to make me follow God..neither do christians..but I am welll aware that a lot of christians follow God because they want to not because of a character named Satan

As for punishment for disobeying God..well God could handle it in a different way and no one would know how until they died.

When man placed this character into the bible, he failed to make satan look the bad one.. in fact he made others feel that God was the bad one.....made me feel that God was portrayed wrongly..thats why not everyone follows the bible due to mans mistake

After you die you must appear in court where your behavior in life stands in judgement. Satan is the prosecuting attorney, Jesus is your lawyer and God is the Judge. What you had done is your life was completely your responsibility, without any outside influence from these three, so good luck and hope you haven't made too many wrong choices.

So you need to go to court ? Interesting.


God knows EVERYTHING already , (Judges don't) HE'S GOD for KFC's sake !! It's between you and god. No need for lawyers

I don't believe in Satan. But if I did, all the points you mention could be explained by a slightly different assumption- that satan isn't god's enemy, that satan is the enemy of humans. That he or she wants humans to disobey god so as get them into trouble, and personally punishes the humans later because it's fun.

What's a story without an antagonist?

aha but even if that where the case, you would STILL be doing what your enemy God wants you to do and that is PUNISH those who disobeyed God....and if you hated God so badly..then it would be pointless doing what God wants
If You were this evil Satan, the best way to get at God would be to torture anyone who is close to god..that would anger God right?? lol but you certainly wouldnt punish anyone for disobeying God, because you would be doing exactly what god wants..and you are not going to do that...

Remember the more people God sends down to hell for you to punish (doing gods dirty work lol) you pull one over on o him instead.....get as many of those souls as possible and have each one work for you, to help you turn on anyone who is close to God..destroying them, driving them crazy and have them kill not just themselves but each other <-------EVIL AS EVIL CAN BE...Now thats how you get at God and thats how you anger God

I have come to the conclusion that when you die and lived a good life then you go to Heaven and be with God and live again in a happy state. Being bad and doing bad deeds then you do not go to Heaven but someplace else and you are sad because of the absence of God. That would be your punishment. At least that is how I feel at this stage in my life.

Ha ha ha LMAO very true...I just read the whole God needing lawyers thing and I nearly wet myself laughing next they will be saying, God may also need a few witnesses and a jury to help make the decision

You are still assumming that satan is god's enemy personally and should be using humans as pawns.

While I was proposing that satan could be humans enemy personally and using god against them. Like a very mean older sister who continually tricks you into being naughty and then is the first one there to tell your parents, so that she can be their favorite.

You are also assuming that god enjoys the punishing being done, perhaps god was actually rather reluctant, knowing full well the whole truth of what is going on. That would explain the wide variety of imperfect people who report heavenly experiences.

And all you are doing is ASSUMING I actually believe in this satan.., I am using my imagination and laying this out as if I were Gods enemy..after all the bible does claim satan is dead against God....he turned on God...religion tries to tell you that Satan will always try and turn you away from worshiping God...so what in 5 types of quick drying paint are you talking about?
If a religious person see's someone doing what is known as messed up and acting strangely...they call it the work of satan and some try to have the devil cast out of this persons body....now if these religious people looked at it like you just have, then what would be the whole point in blaming satan for all that goes wrong? what would be the point in trying to cast him out??

You are now trying to debate a WHAT IF??? come on...LOL if you say that satan is working for God...that would be so stupid...it wouldnt make a lick of sense, the guy is meant to be against God period!!!!

Think of this...people claim evil demons right?? how do we know that, those evil demons where once human beings that got sent to hell for going against God while on earth?? and Satan is using them all the more so now, to get at religious people??? How does that not make sense??



IF God sends you to hell to burn for all eternity ...then of course he wants you to suffer..why else would he send you there????? to play some midnight poker?? a party?? WHAT???. .....he is sending you down to get punished...he wants Satan to do his dirty work....but if satan is dead against God, then it would make better sense to turn these dead sinners into his demons to haunt the living...

Now I am not that evil...but even I\ could think up a better way to get back at God...

EDIT - REMEMBER this..when satan was in heaven as Gods fav angel...the reason why God cast him to hell was because Satan got too greedy and wanted Gods power / controll over all...so it makes even more sense to work on anyone to turn against God..and not just use the dead to haunt the living...but make it so that they all turn on eachother AND GOD..thats a sure way to help take controll of what belongs to God
With all that aside...all of what I was saying..was just a pretend WHAT IF?? I dont actually believe in it..as far as I am concerned..satan never existed

No, it is quite clear that you are taking one description of satan and trying to disprove the satan you defined. What I was saying is that the satan you define is not the only possible description of a judeo-christianly-possible satan, and that you have not disproved, for example, the description I offered.


That is not the way the story of Job makes the situation appear. At least, god did not seem to think there was a war going on.


A mean and jealous older sister might try to turn you away from your parents, but that does not mean she hates them, only you.


"Stop trying to get me into trouble ..."


Your entire premise is a what if, what if your definition of satan is correct.


I assume that if you are Becky's mom, there must be a Becky. Have you never needed to punish her when you didn't really want to? when you loved her and would much rather that she had been better in the first place?

You may assume that god enjoys the punishing, but I don't.


Like a mean older sister who wants to monopolize her parent's love and attention?


I don't believe in a satan anyways, but your definition of satan seems a little too conveniently tailored to the outcome of your logic.

The story of Job is one of the most stupidest stories written in the bible IMO...it tells you how Satan tried to tell God no one really did love and show worship..(to cut a long story short)..he tells Satan that Job praises him every day...Satan says he wouldnt praise you if you killed his stock...wife & kids ect...and for some idiot reason...man made God look like some idiot that fell for this nonsense...yes the very same ALL KNOWING God..the God that KNOWS ALL..SEE's ALL..yet he has to kill all of Jobs family to prove a stupid point to satan <---and this is supposed to make sense??...surely a message about being true to your God, could have been written and told with a lot less violence involved and stupitity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You forgot about the beginning of the bible....

The bible at the very start tells you how much Satan tries to get humans to DISOBEY God..the Adam and Eve story does exactly this....



Give me ONE good reason as to WHY you would suggest that Satan hates us??? and only US??? Why wouldnt he hate the very person that chucked his a*** out of heaven and straight to hell??? After all It is said that Satan did try andcontrol Gods kingdom, so obviously after getting cast out of heaven from where he came..he is bound to want to get at God....so again explain..what in the name of maggie.gave you the idea he would hate andpunish humans? it dont add up!!

In the movie - The Devils Avadvocate - Al Pacino plays the Devil..he says - "I am mans biggest fan, I love mankind, I just hate the hypocrite who sits up there on his throne dictating how man should live his/her life"

If my partner threw me out on my ear...sending me away...would it make sense for me to HATE my kid and not him?? think about it!!



I used it as a what if...but that dont mean I actually believe in it....as far as I am concerned...NONE of this can be correct...not a mission...I was just speaking hypothedically

You have made this next part of this discussion easy .....



Now you are sounding like a christian lol...but to answer you ..YES I have had to punish Becky...but unlike how man claims God dishes out punishment...I would never ever sink as low as to cast my daughter to a place like hell (not the hell where this so called satan is)....I would NEVER hurt her that badly...I wouldnt kill her either....But according to man...God does do these things to people he is meant to love...I say its pure garbage.....I do believe God does punish..but no where near as harsh as man has said.



WHO ME?? no I don't assume God does anything of the sort..where did you get that wacky idea from??.................Man makes god out to be the harsh one to punish you in a harsh way..IE hell to burn for all eternity...BUT I dont believe in that...if I did..I may as well go back to being Catholic again and stick with what the bible says...UMM NO THANKS!!!


Your defination of this character satan sounds too much like how a religious person would see it......you tailored it too..

Satan is a representation of the dark side of humanity.

Most religions have a similar concept, the easern idea of Yin and Yang. If you look at the older gods you see Loki in direct opposition to Odin, Hades was often in opposition to Zeus and so forth. Satan is a scapegoat, he is used as an excuse when a Christian does something especially disgusting. Much as how a Norseman might talk of being tricked by Loki or as Hercules was made mad by Hera, thus absolving Hercules from the crimes he committed while 'mad'

The fact is that Satan like all of the dark gods is used as an excuse for our own shortcomings.

That said, as to why Satan would torture humans when we move away from God, thus following Satan, because he hates us. That is the answer you will get from most Christians, Satan hated men with a passion, from what I understand his fall from grace was a direct result of his refusing to bow to man. So I guess that would be a reason to be a bit pissed off.

Thats what religious people believe in because man wanted them to believe that - the devil hates us all and doesnt want us to follow God....its a tool used to prevent you from sinning and turning from God..that is just it

But you cant deny how it is saidhe hates God and is against God...cuz that is what religion teaches...

As for me..all is not true..I just see it as a tool used to get you to follow God

Its like a parent who has hate and spite for her ex..and so she tells the child..to stay away from the ex, for he hates you...he will hurt you..stick with me <--that my friend is what we call - poisioning the mind and yes it does go on all the time

Honestly.
God gives free will to all his sentient creations. FREE WILL. Which includes Satan.
Satan does want he wants to because he has free will.
He hates God, therefore he'll do what he wants against God.
So do we...Hell is therefore a perfect place for for us.
But if we accept Christ's sacrifice i.e.: perfect record...
Then we live a more peaceful life with the TRUE God.
And yes, we still have free will.

mhm. I would say that rather then a tool to get you to follow god Satan is a tool to get you to follow the Preisthood. This is a narrow distinction but I think there is a vital difference here. A large part of any religion it seems to me is the idea that the preisthood alone is capable of conversing with the god or gods of the religion. As such it is incredibly useful for the Catholic Church in particular to have people feel that there is an evil creature that will get you if you do not do what the Church wishes of you. Thus Satan is born, or at least evolves.

I dont accept christ..I dont believe in christ..and I dont believe the devil exists either...the only beings I believe exist..are God and angles

each to their own

There's a slight difference between the way Christians look at evil and Satan than how other religions do. AR mentioned yin and yang, basically two equal and balancing forces, which is how most religions view the situation. This is not how Christianity views this situation at all.

The Bible clearly shows, that Satan is FAR from being God's equal, since Satan is simply another creation of God. God is supreme, Satan is simply being rebellious as long as God allows him, not because God can't control him, or because Satan "leads" the opposition.

Additionally, evil is not since as a necessary part of life so much as a mere fact of life. One which will be overcome in God's time.

wonder what both God and 'satan' will look like in say 5000 years. it won't certainly look anything like it does today.

How is it possible that God>from whom only good things come>created a supernatural being that turned evil ?

This seems to make the idea of Satan hard to believe.

Note that Matthew 7:18 says>> "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit."

How could the "bad fruit" of Satan have come from the "good tree" of God ?"

Maybe because God's plan for humanity requires that we see how any and every time someone chooses to disobey things end badly, no matter how powerful or perfect you may be. Satan is not so much to be feared as an adversary as he is to be pitied as one more example of how things go bad any and every time we think we know better than God.

If you want to bring up movies, why not use Bedazzled instead?


Parents who use their children as pawns tend to not genuinely love them. There are parents who do everything they can to get "sole custody" and then understand love so little that they mistreat the children they wanted under their control.


Which makes certain messages I have seen all the more transparent.


I was responding to your thread in order to help represent some position in Sandee's absence, older sister. But in general, I find the typical atheist threads and logics rather predictable and not too interesting. They set themselves against judeo-christianity as a matter of script, but do little to nothing about arguing against any of the other religions which logically atheism also needs to deny.


At least you are lucid about that aspect.

This is still illogical & disgusting because the baby that gets raped by the guy that CHOOSES to do so is the pawn. So where does that leave the baby ? Why did god NOT PROTECT the baby ???!!!! So Satan served as the tempter of the man that raped the baby but god placed Satan to bait him into it. Hurray !!
You guys always ignore the true victim>the one that has no choice !

The whole Satan thing in Christianity simply proves mainstream Christianity is totally ignorant of what the Bible actually says, and created this evil 'demi god' becasue their gentile, pagan minds can't understand th concept of a monotheism where there is only one, all-powerful God. In the Bible Yahweh actually says, that HE is responsible for all good and evil.

Satan is not even a name. It is a term that aimply means 'adversary' in Hebrew. And as shown on this forum many times, there is no connection between this invented Satan and the other Christian invention, Lucifer, which was simply a verse comparing the King of Babylon with a discredited heavenly creature.

In Genesis the Serpent is never connected with 'Satan'. This is a later invention. In fact, Genesis is simply the garbled retelling of the Sumerian version, in which the 'local' God of Adam is a talking serpent dragon who tricks Adam out of eternal life offered as a reward from a higher God in heaven. Ironically, Yahweh can be directly traced to Enki, the dragon god in the Garden of Eden, who also tells the Sumerian Noah to build the boat, befuddles the builders of the tower of Babel, etc. These stories are all over 1000 years older than the Bible in their original form. Like the Sumerian dragon, the Bible says Yahweh has wings, spews fire from his mouth, smoke from his nostrils, ordered Moses to make a winged serpent idol to worship and was fed captured enemy virgins. Yahweh is the 'satan' in several bible stories, becasue he assumes an adversarial role to test someone. Satan is not a proper name, and each time the word is used in the Bible it can be a different adversary. In most cases it is Yahweh who is the satan (adversary) or who sends the satan (adversary).

That one sentence just simplified any possible explanation for the existence of Satan.

I don't believe in Satan or hell because that just defeats the whole purpose of everything. Life is like a playground: god doesn't make rules or anything like that so therefore there is no punishment in hell. Satan doesn't exist because there would be no point - we all go to heaven anyway.

I'm not entirely sure where the idea of Satan ruling hell came from, but I know it's not from the Bible. I don't know entirely where the idea of Satan torturing the inhabitants of hell came from, but I also know it's not from the Bible. I would surmise that it came about in that time when Bible's were strictly regulated by the church and the church added in the doctrines. In the modern world that perception has been driven forward by all the Devil movies from Hollywood, so that whenever people think of Hell, they think of Satan ruling a place and torturing its inhabitants.

Satan won't be ruling Hell and torturing people. If anything, he will be the chief prisoner in hell (that is, tartaros). The word "tartaros" is only ever used once in the whole Bible, and refers to the place where Satan will be imprisoned - a place of burning and torture (in English, Tartaros is translated as "hell", which is a little misleading because of the other words also translated as "hell"). Tartaros is not the place where humans go. No human (apart from the False Prophet) is ever described as going to Tartaros. And nowhere does it say that Satan will torture those in Hell.

In short, I think your question is based on a gross misunderstanding of the Bible. You have chosen to base your opinions on popular perception of Hell that bears no resemblance whatsoever to what the Bible actually says.

totally with u on that one P.A.

Why does God get the blame in this situation? We are the ones who slapped God's hand away. We are the ones who decided that we wanted to be the gods of our own lives. We run our own lives how we want, with or without God's approval. How about we take some responsibility for a change?

I constantly see people say things like this is one breath, and then the next they accuse God of being some cosmic parent figure, wagging His finger from Heaven, dictating his values and morals into our lives. Which way do you want it? Should God be able to step in and forcefully make people obey Him (stopping the rapist), or should He let us live our lives how we choose (not stopping the rapist)?

God didn't "place Satan here" to do what He does. God gave angels a choice just like He gave us. Satan isn't God's adversary. There is noone that has the power to directly oppose God. Satan is just a renegade creation that is taking full advantage of the freedom that God gave all of us. He hates God and strives to hurt Him the only way he can, by hitting Him in the heart, that is he attacks us.

Why does Satan torment everyone that he can? Because every ounce of pain, every twang of suffering, is felt by God.

wow, i come back and see P. A. still being right about almost everything as usual... and B.M. making up almost everything as usual...

nice post P.A.

PA, a secular medieval novelist named Dante invented the concept of Satan ruling Hell, as well as the Christian notion of Hell in general as we see in cartoons and hear described by fundamentalist preachers. In his book, Satan is a three headed monster that constantly devours the three main murderers of Caesar, and other people are tormented in various way, appropriate to their sins.

Some 1200 years before Dante, a popular Jewish scripture that was popular with Christians as well, called the Apocolypse of Baruch, formed the basis of early Christian concepts of Hell before Dante. Baruch is taken to heaven by an angel, and asks many questions. He sees one of the enormous seraph dragons that reside in Heaven and asks the angel about it. The angel says that the dragon devours the wicked and that he is 'hell'. Jesus would have known this scripture, and was possibly referring to it when he spoke of an undying "worm" that tormented the wicked. Sometimes worm can mean dragon in Hebrew, just as the medieval "wyrme". This is why dragons are seen swallowing up sinners on many Medieval chruch arches, bible covers, frescoes, floor tiles etc.

This Hell was too frightening for most people, so when Dante invented 'cartoon hell', it was much more popular becasue Dante escaped so people wanted a hell that they could escape from too, so the Church changed ancient "dragon hell" to the "cartoon hell" we still know today, based on Dantes novel. This is why it is so amusing to listen to Christian preachers frightening people with a hell that they don't even realize was the invention of an Italian novelist.

Who knows, at this rate maybe the Da Vinci Code will be Holy Scripture in another hundred years.

^ Thanks DC. I was aware that it was Dante who created our modern concept of hell as a fiery pit (and all the trimmings of levels of hell and such) but I was not aware he also came up with the idea of Satan ruling Hell. Thanks for the clarification

The opposite of heaven is no party, its suffering, its being away from the source of creation and all life. Satan does not rule in hell, he will suffer...and it's not satan that punishes you in hell, its God.

PROVE for a fact that PA is absolutely correct..and I mean not with a bible lol I mean prove to me PA is 100% right

Ohh and F Y I...I never said I was right..I dont even believe Satan exists...looks as though you never bothered reading posts..AS USUAL

Let me get this straight.......you say - Satan does not rule hell <-----show me evidence that actually states this

you then say lol - satan will suffer....so you are trying to convince me and whoever else reads it...that satan is just among the other souls send to SUFFER as punishment OMG this is pure gold....so much so I would love to see actual evidence that states this also...please provide the evidence to this nonsense that does not add up

then you say - its not satan the punishes you..its GOD...<--provide evidence of this too

to be honest all you are doing is riding on the back of PA's post and running with it...but see all is just what you all seem to assume and it is a loophole to try and make sense of it...but it still has not convinced me

Well since you do not know...I would like to see you provide actual evidence that states this - Satan does not run hell and he does not punish anyone

please provide evidence of anything that states satan is just one that is being punished by god and he has no control

ohh about having no controll...ifhe has no control...then he couldnt be controlling humans either lol

Your reasoning is FABULOUS. God could prevent it but CHOOSES to do nothing. The baby did NOT slap god's hand away, did he/she ?

Yes god is a COSMIC PARENT FIGURE,he calls us his children ,and you guys call him father>>so would a good parent allow a baby to be raped ? I think not !

Don't tell me god can't step in, this is total horsecrap !!

And yes god DID place Satan here according to the bible


God is a masochist if he is suffering>because he could banish the pain and he CHOOSES not to.god has the MOST options >because HE IS GOD for KFC"s sake


Where is the logic -reasoning here ?? HELP !!!!!

LOL it is so funny...so far one one side a few christians have claimed GOD rules over satan, he makes satan suffer...satan is to blame for turning people away from god.............then on the other side...Dont blame god...he aint responcible..satan is lol

ohh good gravy gimme strength lol

Ok people to settle this...Present proof of who does what and who really rules hell and who turns people from God...who???? present proof of each of your wild claims

First, DC informed me of the origin of Satan ruling in hell - a fictional work, Dante's Inferno. Secondly, the Bible does not say "Satan does not run hell", because that issue never came up. But what i CAN DO is tell you what fate the Bible has in store for Satan, and show you that this fate is different to the rest of humanity. 2 Peter 2 shows us exactly what fate befalls Satan:

2 Peter 2:4 - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into tartaros and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

In contrast, humans don't go anywhere near there (no mention of tartaros):

Revelation 20:12,13-14 - And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.... The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Note that Satan is destined for tartaros, non-believers (those whose names were not in the Book of Life) destined for the Lake of Fire. How can Satan rule humans if he isn't even in the same place???????

But you are right on one thing - Satan is not controlling humans. Satan can tempt us, but his temptations all go for naught if you just stand up and say "no" to him. The whole "the devil made me do it" response is nothing more than a cop out. The devil doesn't make us do anything. We do it. Satan may have tried to influence us, but all we had to do was say "no". Forget "the devil made me do it" - it's our own actions, our own behaviours, ours alone, not Satan.

Yeah ,god stepped in and saved them from death or healed them but yet he is not responsible or is unwilling for saving babies from getting raped >because the baby slapped his hand away.

The contradictions in their (un) reasoning simply blows the mind, doesn't it ?

Christians believe God stepped in to provide a way out of the ETERNAL consequences of our actions, but even then He doesn't force His solution on us, we have to choose to accept this solution individually.

So, yes, WE are responsible for that baby being raped, because WE choose to live in this type of world every time WE choose to push God away. The man raping the baby is responsible for HIS actions, and yes, unfortunately, the baby is unable to defend himself or choose to be victimized... in fact, the majority of victims do not choose to be victimized, part of their victimization is the fact that they did not get to choose what would happen to them.


Actually, BM, if this conversation is about Satan and hell as actually described in the Bible, then PA is right. Satan is not the ruler of hell, hell is where he will be punished for his rebellion against God.

So if you are god > and "some" people have pushed you away> justifies your doing nothing to stop the baby from being raped>but yet according to you believers >he heals people and all that good stuff>even though> people still are pushing god away...............riiiiiight...oh jeez how could I have missed that I love how god chooses to help some and not others

It's like not helping a woman who is beaten by her abusive lover ,because she CHOSE to be his girlfriend>well tough nuggins> I won't help her by tackling the abuser> i tried to get her away from him>I'm guilt free and i tried to change her mind> so I will just stand here and watch her get beat up>too bad sniffle/gulp

So god stands by not interfering while young innocent babies get raped but he will find a new liver for an old alcoholic fart., because he prayed>>JUST TO PROVE HIS POINT

And god did banish Satan to earth -ruler or not

All I asked for was evidence that states God rules satan....God punishes souls in hell and not Satan ect...I would LIKE evidence of something that actually says this is correct

Do you consider the Bible a valid source for this evidence or not?