I was just about to scan the article for you guys when I found a direct link on UM to the online version. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770 The article speaks for itself.

I believe that everyone is equally psychic. That is to say that everyone has the same level of psychic ability.

I'll wait until I see a scientific paper scrutinized under peer-review, not a newspaper article...

If you subscribed to BBC's Focus Magazine you would've found out about the fact that telepathy does exist ages ago. Sorry I can't send you a link, Focus don't publish their articles online. I can't scan it for you either as I read the article at my workplace about a year ago and that was the article that made me subscribe to the magazine.

That's okay, we'll just take your word for it then.

You don't need to take anybody's word for anything. If you were offered $1.000.000 if you could come up with a copy of said issue by tomorrow, you'd surely come up with an idea - and most probably would find that it wasn't quite impossible to do. Thing is, if you really want to find out, you will. If you're lazy or just don't really care - you'll just forget the whole thing. Simple as that.

The Daily mail is a tabloid, it publishes stories that sell. do you believe everything in the daily mail? i'm sure that you don't. So what makes this article- just because it supports your views- any more valid?

Surely you realise that a newspaper article isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already believe in that sort of thing?

The studies themselves are likely very interesting. I'm looking forward to reading the actual reports, which is the only way methodology (which is of paramount importance) can be assessed. Whether it's a repeatable effect, whether results collated over time (through meta-analysis), and particularly whether other researchers manage to replicate the results, will be the main questions.



Still not a scientific journal, but a popular science magazine - which, I should say, have several times proved themselves to have a somewhat ropey grasp of the main issues in the area of psi research. In fact, I think I read that article - probably still have it somewhere - but don't remember anything particularly remarkable. Again, as a commercial magazine their remit is to shift units, and making extravagant claims will always shift more than conservative but sensible discussion.

But by all means, do present the arguments you found compelling

Telepathy isn't real. The article speaks for itself.


I mean, come on. Maybe it exists, maybe it doesn't, but to hold up a silly article from this ridiculous website as irrefutable proof is comical. To talk down to folks who need further convincing is arrogant. Anyone can put anything on the internet. The Daily Mail proves it. This post proves it further. The Daily Mail article sites no references, is not peer reviewed, and is authored by a man who also writes about crying virgin Marry statues, psychic healing, and photos of angels.

i seriously don't understand skeptics. what are they really waiting for? what kind of evidence? when genuine sincere people on this forum tell about their experiences and it sounds unbelievable, you say "nah, he's lying". i really find this a funny attitude. i think the only thing that could prove them anything if they try it themselves. and that's exactly what they'll never do. "why try something that won't work anyway?" Right? practicioners of a few kinds of martial arts are using chi worldwide. i would feel silly to think it's BS. if i ever took a martial art seriously enough to get deeply engaged in it trying to perfect techniques, and give using chi a try one day, and didn't succeed, not even after 10 years, but my conventional techniques were developed considerably, i'd feel silly to claim that i can use chi, especially knowing that there's no way i can prove it because i know it's a lie. anyway, i don't want to dwell on this one. there is a pattern i noticed during my time browsing forums like this. there are those who are skeptical about psychic stuff but give these abilities a try. the majority report failure. they probably genuinely expected themselves to fail, or didn't try hard/long enough, lack of committment, whatever. still a substantial percentage report success and describe their surprise and amazement. if you convert this percentage into numbers, well... you do the maths. And then there are those who never try. waiting for... i can't even make something up. surely they won't learn martial arts for 20 years to find out. instead they sit before a computer waiting for a youtube video that doesn't look that much of a fake. or an article in what they consider a proper scientific journal. and then say what? "ok, now i believe." and then what? give it a try and find that it works? and think about how their lives could've been different had they found out sooner? hmm... i don't believe this'll happen any time soon. as the article above rightly said, info is withheld. you will be waiting forever living your bleak lives when you could have a life full of "magic", more worthy of living for an intelligent spiritual being. you throw that away out of ignorance trying to prove believers to be stupid gullible idiots. and as long as you don't see that video or don't read that article - you think you win. whatever you say, Mr Winner.
I might well be wrong in this little opinion of mine. And I'm sure there'll be a few who'll try to prove me wrong. I look forward to that, i wonder where my theory is erroneous. let me guess - there are no psychic powers. you know this without having investigated it personally. you just know. Ok, you win.

I find it strange how believers see skeptics as against psychic ability, alot of have treid and i assure you ALL want these powers to be real. But we can't take unimpressive evidence for amazing claims at face value.

point is iv'e never seen anyone on this board he has claimed psychic powers perform them. I'll believe when i see valid evidence.

I'm new on this forum, as you may have spotted (I do post on similar boards though), but in my lurking - despite seeing quite a few instances of friction between believers and non-believers in various phenomena - I don't think I've seen any, or many, examples of people being accused of outright lying. Some people do lie, of course. Some fully believe in what they say they do, but may be mistaken. Nevertheless, this isn't what's being discussed here: what is being discussed is whether your expectation that a Daily Mail article will be considered irrefutable proof by sceptics is reasonable. I think you have your answer on that one.



Well, I do try to 'try things myself', and maybe that puts me in a minority... but I'm off on a ghost hunt tonight (seriously). Nope, I don't expect to find anything, but yes, I really really hope I do. But I also think it completely understandable that people don't want to give up their time and often other resources to do something they truly doubt will do what it says on the tin, at the insistence of people who rarely if ever attempt to even properly read, let alone understand, their posts. I have declined to do some pretty silly things in my time as well... and who among us who has argued with religious believers of almost any stripe haven't declined to simply 'give up your life to God and see what happens'?



Or, there was nothing there to 'work'. I should also add that many sceptics, myself included, have in the past fully believed in certain phenomena, and have tried and tried to make it work. We haven't all always been cynical - some of us have had to work quite hard on it!



Erm - shouldn't you do the maths? Do you have any examples of this happening? I know of many believers who claim to have once been sceptics, but most of those sorts of accounts seem to belie the fact that the individual never really understood what scepticism was, and never have I seen an argument compelling to other sceptics given by such a poster.



I doubt a YouTube video will ever convince a sceptic of anything, other than the SFX or conjuring skills of the subject (or lack thereof).



Well, possibly a lot of articles, of a certain type, by many different authors, could go some way.



Well, for myself, I'm waiting to say "wow, I was wrong - look at this amazing field of science that's opened up!" And then consider that where once there was no evidence, now there is plenty. And not regret a single second of my time spent as a disbeliever, but to continue to use those critical thinking skills to check other claims, and to hopefully help advance, in any small way I could, the investigation of the newly-discovered phenomenon.

What I wouldn't do, on the other hand, is give up my common sense, or sit on a message board presenting blurry photos and second-hand accounts to try to convince anyone who remained sceptical.



No, me neither.



If the information is withheld, then neither you nor I know what it says.



Here's something that I really do find patronising: the idea that sceptics must live 'bleak' lives. I think there's plenty of magic in the real world, in the world around us that we can see and measure and interact with - why should we invent another one? And I have to say, the examples of supernatural belief actually enriching one's life I think are quite few and far between... when I think back to the money I spent and the time I wasted as a believer in superpowers (I went through quite a phase during which I'd rather sit and look at an obstinately rigid spoon, or trying to turn invisible, than go outside and actually do something) I beg to differ with your comment.



I do no such thing. I have no interest in proving you or anyone else to be a gullible fool; I only hope to intelligently discuss what's real and what is not, with a view to learning something, or at least checking that I'm not mistaken. Now go and read the thread title again, and consider to whom that particular accusation might better apply.



I, and most other scpetics I read hereabouts, don't claim to 'just know' anything. That's the point of science and scepticism: we don't know, so we go out and look.

And anyway, win what?

i dont care about skeptics as long as I myself knows about the real unreal world.
Rolci nice to read you hehe,, can i ask what is your experience with chi?? since im into it i dont know the real
essence of it even though I always read about it....i would like to hear other thought on it.

Remember this whole thread was a challenge towards us skeptics, what were you expecting us to do?

Oh my god. I suddenly believe. This one article did it. NOT.

It will take numerous scientific studies having consistent results to definitively prove psi powers. Thanks for trying though.

WHAT WE WANT IS REAL scientific proof.

Wow.

I personally have never been involved in the power of chi, and not sure i should believe it. I have seen a video in which this skeptic is standing in front of a seven-degree black belt and seems to be immune to his chi attacks. The master's explanation is that it doesn't work on skeptics. But what's new? Send a skeptic to a seance, they will tell there is a skeptic sitting in the room - who will make the whole seance not work. Take a believer - he'll most probably come out with a story to tell that's just like thousands others. And whether you believe it or not, it's up to you. If you're a skeptic, you probably will want to see it for yourself, which is not possible, so your loss. This phenomenon is consistent so I'm pretty sure there's a law that guides this. Maybe the presence of the brainwawes of a skeptic person is of such qualities that it disrupts the field someone is trying to generate that would manifest as a supernatural/psychic phenomenon. So these skeptics can wait for their proof forever. Anyway, as for chi, here is a video that I find interesting, bending metal rods supported against the front part of their necks where there are no muscles and a couple more stunts like that:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=co6G-vyAlII&NR=1

and a bonus one for you:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs8mblcgTsk

Yes, that would be a convenient 'law' for believers to cite, wouldn't it.

Sceptics are the most powerful psychics of all, but only use their powers to disrupt any supernatural event.

And presumably it has nothing to do with sceptics being more likely to critically assess what might be going on, and to spot trickery and subterfuge?

At any rate, I think your 'law' is undermined by the fact that most sceptics will likely have been present at some form of alleged psychic event in the past, and have found that, whilst the events happen in front of them, they can likely see what is actually happening. For example, I've had 'chi' demonstrations performed in front of me; and everything that the demonstrater said would happen, happened; but to me it had quite a mundane explanation. My brainwaves didn't scupper the performance once, there was no need.

I wish I was equally psychic,so much I could do with that power*good things of corse* I guess some of us are just willing to aknowledge those types of abilities and work on it,and others who close their minds ignore it and it dissappears.I'll be quiet now X).

I was a skeptic but I had a really strong intutional (intution) experience one time last year. Damn, even now when I think about it, I have no way to explain it other than something abnormal/guiding light/predestined future whatever you call it and it sort of convinced me cuz there were no mediums/psychics involved, just me... and I was never into meditations, gods etc.

But Yeah I understand skeptics as I would have been a skeptic if it wouldn't be for that one experience as its pretty hard to believe in these things. Even now though, I am skeptical on especially mediums or whoever those people who claim to chat with dead.

I won't be suprised if proof is found in next decade or so of bodily survival and if we survive death than anything is possible.

Also check out conferences on http://www.esalenctr.org/display/survival.cfm . Even award winning quantamn physicist Henry Stapp comes over here to give his views.


But finally what I think is there are people out there that won't believe in this until they experience some things themselves.

It was remote viewed that Irak was manufacturing nuclear weapons

screw scientific proof and screw non believers. their ignorance will drive them to madness when all is revealed. when all is revealed, one will have to have an open mind and be very flexible. ignorant nonbelievers will go mad will simply be unable to accept the the truth. it is said that in the new cosmic order that is to come, only enlightened people will survrive. cause what will happen will be so great, that a simple human mind simply canno take that much change at once.

I think the biggest roadblock, is thinking about ability's as power. Through my own experiances, as i started to think of them as ability's that have alway's been a part of human being's, me at least, was when i learned the most about what i have.

The power trip thing is a danger in any field or situation, and should'nt be construed as such. Cute kiddo by the way, i still carry a picture of my daughter and son, when they were that age.

Thats not fair Wally'... the Daily Mail article credits the primary source very clearly - Dr Roe at Northampton University (amongst others).


Though I wander into the valley of the skeptics, I shall fear no contradiction, for thine tinfoil helmet comforteth me...

Meow Purr.