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Episteme
I was never sure if I believed they really jumped off cliffs. But learning Disney, the people that brought us Bambi, actually herded these little guys off the edge of a cliff, to certain death, after using them for filming was pretty shocking! ohmy.gif

QUOTE
Disney's White Wilderness was filmed in Alberta, Canada, which is not a native habitat for lemmings and has no outlet to the sea. Lemmings were imported for use in the film, purchased from Inuit children by the filmmakers. The Arctic rodents were placed on a snow-covered turntable and filmed from various angles to produce a "migration" sequence; afterwards, the helpless creatures were transported to a cliff overlooking a river and herded into the water. White Wilderness does not depict an actual lemming migration; at no time are more than a few dozen lemmings ever shown on the screen at once. The entire sequence was faked using a handful of lemmings deceptively photographed to create the illusion of a large herd of migrating creatures.

Source: Snopes

eight bits
The history of animal abuse for entertainment in films is long and sad.

Here is one chronology of animal film fakery, which includes the Disney movie you mentioned:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/cruelcamera/fakery.html

Some degree of protection is offered through the activities of American Humane working with the film industry, but there is controversy about their effectiveness.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/cruelcamera/humane.html

Good topic, episteme.
ImaLoner
QUOTE (Episteme @ Jan 30 2008, 04:11 AM) *
I was never sure if I believed they really jumped off cliffs. But learning Disney, the people that brought us Bambi, actually herded these little guys off the edge of a cliff, to certain death, after using them for filming was pretty shocking! ohmy.gif


Source: Snopes


More proof that they have evil intentions.. grin2.gif devil.gif Those poor, poor lemmings..
GabrielArkAngel
That is ****ing sickening... I hate stories like that
goalienan
Boy that is just sick....I wonder now if there is any kind of protection clause, and organizations that are on the sets to protect any animal in a film...Good topic...
Episteme
QUOTE (goalienan @ Jan 31 2008, 04:41 PM) *
Boy that is just sick....I wonder now if there is any kind of protection clause, and organizations that are on the sets to protect any animal in a film...Good topic...

Good question, got me curious so I looked it up:

QUOTE
The American Humane Association has overseen movie sets since 1940 to make sure animal actors stay safe while portraying heroes, villains, companions, and comedians. American Humane's Film & Television Unit is designated by the Screen Actors Guild (SAG) as the only animal welfare organization with on-set jurisdiction. As such, the Film and TV Unit considers animal safety its primary goal.

Source

Since 1940, makes you wonder where they were for this film!
InHuman
There was a big doc about this on CBC. Sad stuff, and some of it still goes on.
goalienan
QUOTE (Episteme @ Feb 1 2008, 06:50 AM) *
Good question, got me curious so I looked it up:


Source

Since 1940, makes you wonder where they were for this film!



Thanks for that info Episterne, but I wonder....Years ago, when cowboy movies were the rage, they used to show horses running in herds and going off cliffs...or trampleing down each other.......The group says it's been doing this since 1940, so I'm going with trick photography. I would hate to think that these animals were being killed on the sets...
Episteme
I think you're right. Horses are a lot more valuable too. I didn't look for old westerns, but there have been a couple horses die more recently in Flicka and 13th warrior. Seems that some question the integrity of the AHA. CBC just aired an interesting special, Cruel Camera, about the AHA, animal cruelty, the use of captive animals in staged "wildlife" scenes... It is available online but I'm hesitant to post it here because it shows many scenes like the lemmings from past movies. Strange that it's not so uncomfortable watching it as a Disney special, but in this context knowing the animals died or were injured in the sequence, it becomes very disturbing.
Passtheflask
Hasn’t the idea that lemmings leap off of cliffs during migration been around for centuries and centuries?

Are you saying that this idea was completely fabricated by Disney when that film was made? And that NO lemmings at all have ever jumped off a cliff?

Or… Do you mean that Disney hoaxed one particular staged event in which lemmings jumped off a cliff in order to prove the point that they do this naturally?

“On occasion, and particularly in the case of the Norway lemmings in Scandinavia, large migrating groups will reach a cliff overlooking the ocean. They will stop until the urge to press on causes them to jump off the cliff and start swimming, sometimes to exhaustion and death. Lemmings are also often pushed into the sea as more and more lemmings arrive at the shore.” (wikipedia)

That sounds pretty normal to me.

Why are people so quick and eager to believe something just because it involves cruelty to animals?
Incorrigible1
QUOTE (Passtheflask @ Feb 1 2008, 06:21 PM) *
Hasn’t the idea that lemmings leap off of cliffs during migration been around for centuries and centuries?

Are you saying that this idea was completely fabricated by Disney when that film was made? And that NO lemmings at all have ever jumped off a cliff?

Or… Do you mean that Disney hoaxed one particular staged event in which lemmings jumped off a cliff in order to prove the point that they do this naturally?

“On occasion, and particularly in the case of the Norway lemmings in Scandinavia, large migrating groups will reach a cliff overlooking the ocean. They will stop until the urge to press on causes them to jump off the cliff and start swimming, sometimes to exhaustion and death. Lemmings are also often pushed into the sea as more and more lemmings arrive at the shore.” (wikipedia)

That sounds pretty normal to me.

Why are people so quick and eager to believe something just because it involves cruelty to animals?

From Snopes.com:


White Wilderness

Claim: During the filming of the 1958 Disney nature documentary White Wilderness, the film crew induced lemmings into jumping off a cliff and into the sea in order to document their supposedly suicidal behavior.

Status: True.

Origins: Lemming suicide is fiction. Contrary to popular belief, lemmings do not periodically hurl Lemmingthemselves off of cliffs and into the sea. Cyclical explosions in population do occasionally induce lemmings to attempt to migrate to areas of lesser population density. When such a migration occurs, some lemmings die by falling over cliffs or drowning in lakes or rivers. These deaths are not deliberate "suicide" attempts, however, but accidental deaths resulting from the lemmings' venturing into unfamiliar territories and being crowded and pushed over dangerous ledges. In fact, when the competition for food, space, or mates becomes too intense, lemmings are much more likely to kill each other than to kill themselves.

Disney's White Wilderness was filmed in Alberta, Canada, which is not a native habitat for lemmings and has no outlet to the sea. Lemmings were imported for use in the film, purchased from Inuit children by the filmmakers. The Arctic rodents were placed on a snow-covered turntable and filmed from various angles to produce a "migration" sequence; afterwards, the helpless creatures were transported to a cliff overlooking a river and herded into the water. White Wilderness does not depict an actual lemming migration — at no time are more than a few dozen lemmings ever shown on the screen at once. The entire sequence was faked using a handful of lemmings deceptively photographed to create the illusion of a large herd of migrating
creatures.

Nine different photographers spent three years shooting and assembling footage for the various segments that comprise White Wilderness. It is not known whether Disney approved or knew about the activities of James R. Simon, the principal photographer for the lemmings sequence.

Nature documentaries are notoriously difficult to film, as wild animals are not terribly cooperative. Many nature shows and films of this era — including Disney's "True-Life Adventure" movies and TV's Wild Kingdom — staged events to capture exciting footage for their audiences. The sight of a few lemmings mistaking a lake or ocean for a stream and drowning after swimming out too far, or being pushed over a cliff during the frenzied rush of migration, has become the basis of a widespread belief that lemmings commit suicide en masse when their numbers grow too large.

Passtheflask
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
It's just that the OP titled this topic "Lemmings don't jump off cliffs". It's a very misleading title.
eight bits
QUOTE
It is available online but I'm hesitant to post it here

Well, both the 2008 and 1982 versions are click-throughs from either of the links in post #2.

What with this cat being out of the bag anyway, for those who are interested:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/cruelcamera/video.html

which updates the earlier:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/cruelcamera/video2.html
Episteme
QUOTE (Passtheflask @ Feb 2 2008, 05:09 PM) *
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
It's just that the OP titled this topic "Lemmings don't jump off cliffs". It's a very misleading title.

Lemmings occasionally jumping off cliffs to go for a swim is quite a stretch from mass suicide, don't ya think? Besides, "Lemmings don't jump off cliffs to commit suicide but will jump a cliff occasionally to swim a body of water" wouldn't fit in the title section...

QUOTE
Are you saying that this idea was completely fabricated by Disney when that film was made? And that NO lemmings at all have ever jumped off a cliff?

Did I say that? unsure.gif

There's a big difference between what you quoted and flinging themselves to certain death. Disney falsely "documented" lemming suicide and in turn, people believed the myth. Did you read the rest of that wiki article, or just the part you quoted?

QUOTE
Misconceptions about lemmings go back many centuries. In the 1530s, the geographer Zeigler of Strasbourg proposed the theory that the creatures fell out of the sky during stormy weather (also featured in the folklore of the Inupiat/Yupik at Norton Sound), and then died suddenly when the grass grew in spring. This was refuted by the natural historian Ole worm, who first published dissections of a lemming, and showed that lemmings are anatomically similar to most other rodents.

While many people believe that lemmings commit mass suicide when they migrate, this is not the case. Driven by strong biological urges, they will migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can and do swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat.

Wiki
The Valcian
Wow. I never new.
~Cheese~
Disturbing..
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