Hey all,

I got this from a Google groups page. It was written by a Christian, and it is probably the most intelligent thing I have ever heard anyone wanting to debate religion say.




Source

I think this should be added to the SvS forum's rules.

Written by an Atheists read likes.

Hmmmmm yes....LOL I like it but doubt it was written by a Christain.

Yes I have my doubts about authorship as well, however, assuming it was written by a Christian look at it this way. He says that atheists are smarter, they understand the Bible better, and that the Bible has "problems." Yet he continues to believe.

Too good to be true...........it's almost embarrassing

This has been posted here many times.

4. Be willing to admit that there are things you don't know. Believe it or not, it will not hurt your position.



I know some people that will admit they are wrong and they don't know all <--------------------but those are few and far between

A sure way to know you have made a brilliant point is when the person posting against you...no longer responds..then you know you left them speachless and you had a good point

I wouldn't be surprised if a Christian did write it. Most of what they said I agree with. There are only one or two points that I would actively disagree with, and on the whole it is good advice for a Christian when debating. Debating isn't about "winning", though I have seen too many arguments turn into that for my liking.

Not necessarily, BM. There are times when I don't respond to posts, for various reasons. Some of these reasons include:

1- it is an attempt to take the discussion off-topic,
2- The poster is attempting to flamebait
3- The point has been argued to death and they are just repeating the same post over and over (which makes responding with the same post you have responded with time and time again totally pointless)
4- I simply missed the response amidst a heap of other replies

Not responding to a post is not a guarantee that the other person has made a brilliant point.

~ Regards, PA

lol don't feed the trolls

I'd like to add that the hitler was an atheist argument is both false, and it drags the debate off topic. The amount of times I've seen it brought up in debates is astounding.

No one even mentioned Hitler...

I think he saw where this might be leading up to, as Hitler is often a weapon against Atheists, as false as it is....

I believe very much that it was written by a Christian. Most of the Christians I know think this way, at least the ones I respect.

The one that especially makes me think that it was written by a Christian is this line


5. Remember that our walk is by faith and that we cannot prove that God exists or that the Bible is true. We might be able to make an argument to support those beliefs, but do not mistake that for proof.

The experience of Grace is such a private, passionate and beautiful experience that it must be returned in kind. The only way to accept grace is through grace. As such the humility involved will be clear.

There are many Christians I know who accept Christ through a state of Rules of Regulations.

All that I know is that in the concept of Grace, there were no regulations when Christ was taken. The rules and regulations were turned on their head. Even when Jesus was chosen to be punished over a known criminal the knowing way that Pilate "washed his hands of it" demonstrated that this was going against the rules and regulations. The way in which he was beaten, persecuted and crucified went against the rules and regulation. This abomination made no sense, makes no sense if you view it through the rules and regulation.

It only makes sense in love. This is why Love Dogs is so meaningful to me.

Some might say that the only way to open the heart truly, is to close the mind. The incompatibility of these two have conflicted men for centuries. But instead, to recognize that where the heart accepts Grace, the answers no longer matter in the world of rules and regulations but in the heart and the mind of love.

So in this I clearly see the OP being written by a Christian, or perhaps a mystic who understands the way it is.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m105...119/ai_95205972

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF4_KZfIfVI

I'd belive that was written by a Christian... It's the way I'd write it. I'd write one for atheists too it might be just as stinging.

The part about this that I find curious is, atheists don't knock on my door asking me NOT to believe. In fact I've never had an encounter with an atheist attempting to sway me into giving up a belief in a diety. Never have I turned on the television and seen a program of atheists asking for money to spread the word about the non existance of god. I know I have never seen a huge building where atheists gathered to use that money to spread the idea about the non existance of god, and celebrate that non existance. I have never seen an atheist group protest anyone's abortion, funeral. I have in fact never seen an atheist stop and set their hand on someone they didn't ask and start praying on them (as I have seen christians do many times).

So while thats a nicely compiled list, I really think the burden lies with christians when it comes to a debate in that they have quite a bit more to explain about and defend than an atheist has to.

There are people just as bad, if not worse on both sides.

There are some atheists (a certain author comes to mind..) who look down on those of faith, they attribute every evil in the world to relegion, and not BASIC HUMAN NATURE.

I have problems with organized relegion, but peoples faith is their own buisness, and as long as no one is being hurt (children brainwashed, races/peoples oppressed) I have no problem with it.

They don't need to - television and the popular media does that enough on its own (against the beleifs of religion, if not the actual deity). I remember watching a Comedy Extravaganza on tv a couple of years back, and one of the comedians had composed a song titled "Religion". It went something along the lines of:

"It makes you happy,
it makes you want to fight,
it makes you think you're the only one that's right,
it makes you think you're the best there is,
for no good reason at all.
RELIGION"

After this, the crowd was on their feet cheering and applauding louder than at any point in the show. Why would atheists need to door knock when the media's doing that job for them and taking it right into the homes where people watch it every single day????

Add to this the many atheists who have written books about God-delusions (as just one example of many) and while it is true you may not have been door-knocked by atheists yet, it certainly appears that there are those who are doing their part in spreading the word of Atheism through their own brand of atheist apologetics.

Perhaps if you could expand on exactly what you mean by Christians having the burden of proof, because I don't know exactly what you are referring to. But in a general sense, I don't see why either side should carry any burden. If you believe, you believe. If you don't, you don't. Any attempt to say the other side is the one who should carry the burden seems (to me, at least) to be an attempt to make the other side's points to be less valid than their own.

Just a few thoughts to consider.

~ Regards, PA

Hmmm ya gots me thinking Mel

How to Argue a Believer for the atheists online


Some things to keep in mind:



1. Remember that they are people, just like you are. Contrary to what you may have been led to believe, they are not some lower life form we share this planet with.



2. More than likely, they are smarter than you are. This can be difficult to come to grips with, but it does appear to be true and the majority of people on the planet that are respected in general even by atheists, DO believe in God.



3. Statistically, they are also as moral as you are. While it is a good thing that they generally are highly moral, it is a shame that we, who often times claim the moral high ground, seem unable, or unwilling, to match our words with our lives. A dozen or so Andrea Yates or Suicide Bombers doesn't represent the moral majority of the believers.



4. They will probably thump you in debate. They are much more likely to have carefully thought through their position and understand why they believe what they do. We are more likely simply to present some argument that the person we heard it from guaranteed would destroy the enemy. The problem with that is that many of them have heard the same arguments many times and are easily able to counter them. The fact that they do counter then is likely because they understand that the difference between the sacred and the profane. Reason and Logic might be great points of debate in the regular world, but in the world of spirit, in the world of yearning and reaching out to the unknown, those neat arguments they will throw at us are usually too sophisticated in the world of Spirituality to properly debate with a skeptic. Thus they will trounce us, if we attempt to rise to the bar, but since normally we won't dare, it will seem as though we've "Shown them." They know better though, they've seen it before.



5. Don't under-estimate their knowledge of Science, Logic and Reason. Many of them are more familiar with these ideas than the average atheist is. Most of them are older than the younger crowd that is easily swayed by our hostility and rejection of what is a position of authority in the world, family and school. They are used to the hostility when they use Science Reason and Logic to question you and will not hesitate to challenge you with them. When they do, sneering at their stupidity only makes you look defensive.



So, as an Atheist, what chance do we have when doing battle with the Believers? Here are some suggestions that may make your stay here more rewarding.


1. Don't feel like you have to win all of the battles. You are not going to. In fact, you may not win any of them. Be satisfied with being able to clearly and spiritually express what you don't accept and why. While you may never convince another person on this group, you will have helped yourself by taking the time to understand what you believe and why, and to verbally present it. We are challenged to give an answer, not to win a fight. Dismissing the discussion is the worst way to go. As Sir Francis Bacon says

We find the most terrible form of atheism, not in the militant and passionate struggle against the idea of God himself, but in the practical atheism of everyday living, in indifference and torpor. We often encounter these forms of atheism among those who are formally Christians. -



2. Be respectful, open and truthful. Atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man. - Sir Francis Bacon Realize that the people you are debating with really do have a lot to offer. Don't throw away the opportunity to learn from them because they believe in God. Don't make the mistake of believing that everything a believer says is something that is just being repeated.



3. Treat them the way you would like to be treated yourself. Don't assume that its ok to attack a believer because of something their brethren in faith have done. Not all Muslims support suicide bombers, not all Christians are gay bashing nut jobs blowing up abortion clinics. Most believers here will treat you with at least the same amount of respect that you show to them.


4. Be willing to admit that there are things you don't know. Believe it or not, it will not hurt your position.



5. Remember that our walk is by logic and reason that is the way mankind has created a sense of order in his thinking. However this doesn't mean this is how order really operates. There may well be somethings that are completely not able to be understood using logic and reason. That doesn't make it false. . We might be able to make an argument to support those beliefs, but do not mistake that for proof.


6. Remember that while spirituality might be a whimsical emotion to you, easily dismissed as sentiment and hysteria, to others it is valid and vivid and most people experience spirituality. In fact its universal among mankind whether we chose to acknowledge it as having a deeper meaning or not.


7. Enjoy your stay with us, learn and share, and don't get too worked up about anything.



8. Don't feed the trolls.

Just as I'm sure not every christian relates to Pat Robertsons idea of things I'm sure that Richard Dawkins that you elude to doesn't speak for all atheists either. While I believe there is loud, pushy, vocal individuals on both sides, I still think that quantitatively christians bear the burden of explaining their actions, as opposed to atheists explaining not worshipping a diety.

Point well taken, both sides and i hate to say hate, I do see a more distinct line. I see alot of ammo aimed at the Atheist than the "believer" Hmm what was that percentage again ?

You haven't?

Then you've never heard of Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris or Brian Flemming I guess?

I've seen atheists confuse young women and push them towards getting abortions because they are angry that the young women were raised in a Christian home that brain washed them to believe that it was wrong (according to them.) I've seen many atheists mock and disparage things that are considered sacred PERSONALLY to a religious person. I'm not talking rejecting in a public forum or making a political statement kind of things but things like oh lets see desecrating churches and synagogues. Or ripping up a quran or throwing a bible into a bonfire. I've seen atheists additionally mock and ridicule people praying. So while they might not be "placing the hand on the person praying" they are ridiculing Muslims for praying by the side of the road. I've seen flat out hatred directed at believers by atheists.

Never have you seen a huge building where people gather to raise money and spread money about the non existence of God? So you have never heard of Communist Russia, or Atheist Activists I guess or Scientology?

Hmm

What world do you live in?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Who_Wasn't_There

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Harris_%28author%29


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/gydecre1.htm

http://www.atheistactivist.org/Tracts.html

And you can get your atheist tracts here if you want to order a bunch to pass around. Here's a sample but feel free to check out the others

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/jesus.php

Same world you do, and like I said, I personally (that being me) have never witnessed anything you described. I didn't say it didn't happen. However, in sheer numbers alone, you have to admit that being that there are statistically more christians than atheistse (as is pointed out a number of times on the board) that proportionally, christians have IN A DEBATE more to explain. I'm talking about having a religious document, the bible, by which christians say they live by, but then only go by some of it. Or they choose to ignore some parts and emphasize others, but still claim the whole thing is infalible. An atheist on the other hand, has only to DEBATE not worshipping a diety. They have no dogma to defend other than "diety is non-existant". Other than that what is it that they have as a position to defend??

PS Scientology isn't atheistic. Communist Russia wasn't either, the state itself became the religion and the leader its "godlike figure" (didn't really work but that I believe was the intent). And the only atheist activist I remember in the media was on Donohue (ooh aging myself that lol) and her and her son later disappeared and were thought to have been murdered.

I don't have to admit any such thing.

What's your next statement going to be, We have to admit blacks commit more crimes than whites do? We have to admit Arabs tend to be sympathetic to terrorism? We have to admit that homosexuals are more promiscuous by nature and are what caused Aids to be spread in the country? And then what? What do we do after we admit to these lovely stereotypes and statistics? What's the point to mentioning any of these statistics except to justify being hostile to such a group?

When you live in the world you do, which certainly isn't the same world as me, you find simplistic ways to justify your hatred of a "group" based on statistics or what not.


The truth is every individual deserves to be treated as the person HE OR SHE IS, not some preconceived notion or stereotype that YOU use to make yourself feel better about being prejudiced.

The only thing I have to admit is that in general ANYONE who categorizes an individual by the actions of a group is not lending himself towards tolerance, understanding and growth but cornering themselves into hatred, prejudice and general laziness when it comes to dealing with people.

ptch.. this is why hateing everyone comes in handy!

Ok first off I was discussing debate between christians and atheists. I never mentioned the groups you brought in (for what reason I don't know). I don't see where the examples listed have much to do with the topic at hand. I don't hate christians. Believe it or not I am not an atheist. I'm a pagan. I have friends in both categories. So you tell me what in a debate would an athiest have to defend OTHER than their idea of the non existance of a deity? Atheists don't have a religious document that they live by (or don't live by as the case may be) but christians do. The bible is something christians live by, (that is part of being christian the last time I checked) and atheists do not. That alone says in a debate a christian would have just by the bible alone, more to explain, defend or espouse on than would an atheist. That is why I commented in the first place, that a christian writing a big list of things to say in defence against "atheist attack" kind of seems curious to me, when in fact the christian is the one who has more to explain and generally are the ones who put their faith out there for discussion.

Actually in case you haven't noticed most Christians don't get their faith out of a book. They use the book as a guide but their faith has nothing to do with the bible.

The reason I mentioned the other groups is that when people say things like "you have to admit..................<<insert steretype here" its usually done as a way of justifying a prejudice. Just as you have done in my opinion.

Christians aren't Christians because of the bible. They are Christians because of Christ.

Apparently no one but me has been to a street fair in Seattle where Atheists chase you down the booth aisles trying to cram your pockets full of tri-fold literature about how the earth isn't 5,000 years old.

DUH. Preaching to the choir!

Personally, I by-pass the atheists booths and tell them to leave me alone... and head right for Catholic Services... they sell BEER! For cheap!

Nope I've seen em too. LOL






http://nyc-atheists.org/

Haha thats funny. I am really not trying to be obtuse, it is just something that I've never encountered (while I have in fact encountered the christian side). And like I pointed out, doesn't mean I don't think it happens I just don't think it happens as much as it does coming from christians. Perfect example, I am a college student at Southern Oregon University. Today we had a guy standing out with his dog, and big sign, talking about the "end is nigh" and you better believe or else, and he spoke, loudly ...non stop for hours about god, jesus and salvation. This isn't the first time we've had someone on campus do this. We have had groups handing out tiny pocket bibles etc. In the time I've attended school there, this has happened a few times a year. NEVER have I had one piece of paper or one word said to me about becoming an atheist. That is my personal experience.

As for the beer is it a nice ale? lol

Well your personal experience is just that, so why would you tell me I have to admit that your personal experience is my personal experience?

I've lived in NYC for 17 years and remember ONCE encountering a man yelling on the street and I told him he was annoying.

But in general on maybe Atlantic Avenue subway stop you'll see Christians out and about but then again you see the Hari Krishnas and the Scientologists with a table set up wtih their e meter. I was thinking of taking the test just to report back to you guys? Do you think I should?

Oh for Pete Sake, youre' in Oregon, they're ALL crazy there... take a look around. Oregon is the most odd ball state in the union! LOL. Never trust a state where you're not allowed to pump your own gas at the gas station. LOL. (I'm obviously being flippant, my sister lives in Portland, we've joked about if for years).

Honestly though, Truethat posted a picture above of the Atheists with tents... you see them all the time up here in Seattle and apparently in NYC too. Their literature is nearly as funny as the 5,000 year creationists literature is.

And ya, somestimes the Catholics do sell really good ales! Sometimes even a Rogue Porter too! lol

I only brought up my personal experience because in a previous post you ASKED me....remember? (What world do you live in?) I was trying to answer you....as for the Scientologists, just watch the episode of South Park about testing, and ask the same questions. They (I have heard) get really irked..lol....

I dunno, I think I'd avoid the e-meter and Scientologists, they're pretty scary in my opinion.

They have the celebrity headquarters here

I took a picture of me in front of it. I'm thinking I might go for it. I'll consider it research.

I would be a nightmare for the Scientologists because I have the biggest mouth on the planet.

its good to see that we can as differing believers and non believers all find common ground in thinking Scientology is just plain scary. Kind of warms your heart...lol

The world is full of people and only a small fraction of these worship a God. As a Christian myself I feel it is a battle that to convert an Atheist to a Christian would please God but would it not be enough to just let everyone take the path they wish in life and enoy it while they can? And when the day comes for the Christians to pass onto the Heavens the Atheist can burn in Hell and we might have some elbow room in heaven because we are running out here.

Calm down!

Im just kidding around it reminds me of a joke I heard once.

A man was sitting on a plane reading the Bible and a guy behind him said you dont believe everything it says in that Bible do you?
The man reading it said yes sir I do if it is written in here in the bible I do whole hearted trust in it.
The man said well you dont beleive that part about Jonah being in the whale do you?
And the man said yes sir I do!
The man said how do you know its true?
The man said well I will ask Jonah when I get to Heaven.
The man said what if Jonah didnt go to Heaven?
The man said then you can ask him when you get to Hell!

I think I would rather base my ability to stay out of the fire on a free ticket to Heaven. If I leave this old world one day and find that I was wrong on my choice what did I have to give up ? You Atheist know no more than I do about what is beyond death. All I understand is what I feel in life and fire is not worth the risk of claiming to be an Atheist. Fire that you never die in you just feel for an eternity. That would suck.

I'll take the fire and brimstone before I compromise who I am just to get the ticket into heaven. I worship no god and that may be a risk but at least I'm not afraid of the fire.

There are many possible consequences for you being wrong. What if you die and you discover that Zeus or Odin is the real god and they condemn you for worshiping the wrong one? Your taking the same risk as everybody else.

"Conquer your fears and you will surely conquer death"
"It is better to die on your feet then live on your knees"

I meant that that argument shouldn't be used. It's the biggest waste of time ever, it relies on convincing people that your view of history is different from what actually happened.

Why not believe it? I,m a Christian and agree with what this person has written! And even if it was written by an athiest, it,s good advice and what i try to live by and remember!

I agree with you and notice that up to press no one has denied what you say ,whilst I agree that no one mentioned Hawkins I think he was being referred to
but he doesn't come knocking on your door and he is only one .I think we can say most but not all are guilty as charged


fullywired

Apparently, that's the idea here:

Im Atheist. Im Christian. Im Scientologist.

Well anytime I have gotten into a debate with yourself PA...I have seen it go on for a bit, then when I came out with a good point and YES thread related....you never returned....there has been a few in the past...but when I wrote that PA, I seriously was not thinking of you...I had a few others in mind....but saying that, it is very true...their ego wont allow them to say - OK good point...instead, they make themselves look so foolish by grasping for loopholes around it...trying to find any ole ecuse to wiggle out of something, I seriously believe people that do this are not that bright

As for the poster attempting to flamebait or like you add - going off topic <--I fail to se how that would stop you from saying anything....cuz........you are a mod...you are meant to say something lol

Hi BM,

I was not really thinking of you specifically either when I posted this, but rather just trying to say that there are other reasons. But since you brought my posts up, I thought I should say that I have also seen you seemingly ignore my posts from time to time (also thread-related). Would I be right to assume that the point I raised was a good one and you didn't want to respond???

I think you know me well enough to know that when I don't know an answer, or if I think a person has made a good point, I will tell them so, and thank them for helping me improve my own knowledge. I've seen you do the same also, so perhaps the reasons that we think a person does not reply is not really the reason they do not. It's not always right to jump to the conclusion that the other person is ignoring you because you made a good point (though sometimes it may be so).

Just a few thoughts to consider,

~ Regards, PA

After reading your post, EVERY post you make seems like a good point. To YOU! So, this isn't saying much at all. I agree 100% with PA. I've found many times that I have no more reason to respond to someone for one reason or another.

Actually, there have been quite a few times that I refused to reply to some comments made by other posters. If I am getting too hot under the collar because of a comment made towards my posting, I just ignore that poster, I have enough stress in my real life without adding to it in my virtual life. I come here to interact and enjoy exchanging ideas, I don't need to come here to be put down or called a liar.

I think the writer is not only a Christian, but a very mature one (much more mature than I am since a couple of those points hit close to home).

I also appreciated Truethat's rewrite of the original to address the atheist side.

I think the biggest difference one will find between the actions of Atheists and Christians is that one is motivated by a concern that the other is destined to face a scientifically unprovable consequence for their stance and is so deluded they can't admit the obvious truth of this... but which is which? Can the Atheist actually prove his point? Can the Christian?

We don't agree on much, true, but we agree on this - hook, line and sinker. Doug

Huh? What's he got to do with it? Doug

Honestly, this has been one of the best threads in S&S in a LONG time. It says a LOT.