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brave_new_world
David Icke Newsletter, February 3rd 2008

SO WE WANT TO 'CHANGE THE WORLD?'

OKAY ...

DO WHAT YOU KNOW TO BE RIGHT ...


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... NOT WHAT YOU THINK IS RIGHT FOR YOU IN THE MOMENT

JOB DONE


Hello all,

Given what I have been exposing these past 20 years about the state of the world the obvious question that follows is this: 'So what can we do about it?'

I am going to give my view on this today and it is, of course, yours to make of what you will. It is not for me to tell people what do and how they should act. That is their decision, not mine or anyone else's. But here are some thoughts and they can be summarised by this quote from Albert Einstein:

'No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it'.

There are a number of versions of what Einstein is supposed to have said, but this one encapsulates all of them. In short, the problems that we see in this world - this reality - cannot be repaired by the same kind of thinking - sense of reality - that created them.

Why? Because the 'world' is a reflection of that 'thinking' and if the 'thinking' doesn't change, neither can its reflection - the 'world'. The manipulators understand this and they are constantly offering and encouraging 'solutions' that they know will just exacerbate the problems and create more.

Round and round we go and so it must be because the global merry-go-round is just a manifestation of thought processes, individual and collective, going round and around, repeating, repeating, repeating. As the saying goes: If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got. Put another way: If you always think what you've always thought you'll always create what you've always created.

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'Ain't it great - we're getting somewhere at last ...?'

So there has to be a consciousness shift to trigger any transformation of reality. You can organise all the groups you like to challenge injustice, call all the public meetings you want, produce a mountain of minutes and arrange for mass marches through the streets. But nothing will change unless there is a change in consciousness.

I observe many of the groups who are pledged to change the system or expose its manipulations and corruption. These include those of the political 'left' and significant elements of even the 9/11 Truth Movement that is seeking to expose the official story for the nonsense that it is.

But what I see so often is the system-thinking which created the injustice repackaged under another name, another banner or slogan. The political 'left' and 'right' actually think and act the same - only their rhetoric differs and even then often barely.

I was interviewed this week by members of the Irish 9/11 Truth group and it was a real pleasure because these guys had 'got it' about nothing changing unless consciousness expands, but many within that gathering movement and indeed conspiracy research in general are still stuck in the ever-repeating circle - trying to solve problems with the same level of consciousness that created them.

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Different numbers and colours, but the same wheel. And the 'House' - the system - always wins in the end because the system controls the wheel.

It is sad to see how movements for 'change' are hijacked by the system-thinkers and how they often marginalise and dismiss those among them who have another, more expanded, vision of reality. But things are shifting, if not as quickly as we would like.

One of the classic traits of system-think is to see problems, and therefore solutions, in terms of complexity. The system loves complexity because it entraps the mind in bewilderment and therefore inaction. 'The problems are just too big, there's nothing we can do.'

Mind, or what I call 'body consciousness', is imprisoned by complexity, but expanded consciousness takes a point of observation that can see the obvious - the apparently complex is actually real simple. For me, true genius is seeing the simple in the complicated, and body consciousness, or 'mind', can be a right dummy when it comes to this. It has a 'simplicity filter' and so can't see the forest for the twigs.

Here's an example of what I mean:

How do we solve the problems of all these wars and conflicts, and all the suffering, poverty and political infighting?

Body consciousness answer: We must have conferences and UN votes and send more troops and have G8 summits and marches through the streets.

Higher consciousness answer: We must love each other.

And no, that's not just a trite one-liner from a New Age workshop. It is a fundamental truth from which all else comes.

System-thinkers are observing everything from a crooked angle. They see the complexity of society as the target they must focus upon to bring about 'change' when the complexity is the symptom, not the cause. It is an expression of the values that underpin it and if the values are flawed and complex, so must be their expression.

So what are these 'values' that have created the world of complexity and injustice that we daily experience? Basically, look after number one - self. What's in it for me? How does this affect me? What does this do for me? On and on it goes.

Of course, this must create complexity because there are currently more than six billion 'selfs', and vast numbers of them, though far from all, have bought the myth that life is about me, me, me. The complexity comes from dealing with billions of people pursuing service to self and all the laws, organisations and systems that this generates.

Human self-obsession takes endless forms, including: I must do whatever is necessary to get what I want; We as a country must do whatever is necessary to serve 'our interests' (see 'American interests', 'British interests', etc); I must do whatever is necessary to impose my beliefs, religious and otherwise, on everyone else. Me, me, me, I, I, I.

Take that last paragraph alone and you can see how those 'values', those attitudes, must translate into conflict, war, injustice, imposition and division. It can't be any other way when the foundations on which our society is erected are so self-centred and callous to begin with. And callous 'values' = callous complexity: a 'crazy world'.

This is why when we give love a chance the peace will take care of itself. All you need is love.

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Love: the universal language.

Oh yes, I hear the cry - 'You can't eat love and love's no good when the other guy's got a gun'. Well, first of all enormous and grotesque numbers of people on this planet are not eating because of an absence of love and the same goes for why the 'other guy' is carrying the AK47.

I am not talking about sitting in a circle chanting 'love is the answer' and everything will be fine. Love in its true and infinite sense is not a spectator, not some inactive esoteric concept. It is the ultimate power in all existence and it is there for everyone to connect with and express in daily experience whenever we choose. The tragic thing is that we don't choose and that's why we have the world that we do.

We have tried hate and me, me, me, and it doesn't bloody work - look at its 'creations' ...

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And love is not the answer when the absence of love is the cause of this??

If we want all of that to be confined to the history books of our children and grandchildren in the sections about a brutal and insane past that is no more, then we need to become conscious and thus grow up.

No, not become Republicans or Democrats, Labour or Conservative, right or left, black or white, Christian or Hindu, Muslim or Jew.

Become conscious.

Two words will transform this reality because of all that will come from them: love and respect. Indeed, respect is inherent in love anyway.

These values are the soul mates of awakened consciousness and they will transform this ball of division and conflict into the paradise it is destined to be. Paradise is not a place; it is a state of being that transcends all places, races and expressions of the Infinite.

To put it in practical terms it means this: doing what you know to be right rather than what you think is right for you in the moment.

By that, I don't mean 'right' as in the 'right' horse to back or the 'right' company to invest in. I mean 'right' in the sense of the heart centre. What does the heart tell you is the right course of action? And let us not kid ourselves that we don't know what the heart is saying. We do, it's just that its urgings are ignored because the head is saying 'What are the consequences here for me?'

The system wants us to identify with the 'body self' and put that self first. Love urges us to see that we are all One and that therefore the greater good and the 'individual' good are indivisible.

What is right is also what is right for us in the moment and we have lost sight of that because our perspective has been twisted to make us forget who we are - the All, not the small.

Imagine the transformation of daily life that would emerge from the values of love and doing what we know to be right and not what we think is right for us. Unfairness and injustice would fade away and so would conflict, war and imposition of will.

Sometimes it will be right to defend yourself against injustice and stand your ground in the name of fairness. Other times it will be right to concede your own position and desires to provide fairness and justice for another.

The question would be: What is right? Not, as so often today: 'What is right for me? What's in it for me? What are the consequences for me? There is no need for such internal conversations when doing what is right in the name of justice and the greater good is your only question.

How can anyone be homeless, hungry, carpet bombed or abused in a world of love where people do only what they know to be right?

How do we create such a world?

We become conscious.

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This very state of being - doing what you know to be right and fair - opens the channels to higher consciousness because these are the values of higher consciousness. The energy carried by that intent cracks the auric eggshells of body consciousness and sets us free of the system's 'values' that are designed to enslave us in me, me, me.

Love and respect can gift us a world that I would like to live in ... a world in which everyone does what they like so long as they don't impose it on anyone else. Diversity of view and lifestyle can live in harmony so long as love and respect hold the balance between them.

It brings together both respect for our right to do and be what we choose while respecting those same rights for others and it will bring an end to the complexity that engulfs us today.

You don't need laws when you have love and respect on the level I am speaking of. You don't need laws to say you cannot murder when to do so is unthinkable, let alone doable. The same with child abuse, environmental abuse and all the rest. Love and respect don't need laws, they can handle it themselves, thank-you.

But can any of this be done with today's level of collective consciousness? No, not a chance - 'No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it'. And nor can a reality be transformed by the same level of consciousness that enslaved it.

There has to be a consciousness shift, an awakening to a new point of observation, beyond the realms of me, my, I. But it's coming, oh yes, it's coming, and if I am not here to see it fully expressed then my children and grandchildren will be. The pregnancy pains of this shift and the dying pains of the old reality are going to be considerable, sometimes almost overwhelming for some, but it will be worth it in the end.

The biggest challenge for all of us in this time of transition is to live our words and not just speak them. Humans have developed a wondrous gift for self-deception and we are simply brilliant at persuading ourselves that what we think is right for us is what is right for the greater good. It is time to be honest with ourselves.

Awakening to the power of love is one thing - expressing it when its reality is at odds with body reality is quite another. Only when we are faced with a choice between what we know to be right and what we think is best for us at that time will we truly confirm if love is our guide and not just a catchphrase that is to be spoken, but not stirred.

But then we are facing those choices all day every day, so we'll soon know, eh?








I think this is a message we can all absorb. I believe that love is the answer to all distress. laugh.gif
Supra Sheri
Brave, all quality change begins 'within', love is a process and as it evolves to a place where it isn't reactionary it blossoms into compassion natuarally it needs no doctrines or sign posts or allegaince to just the 'right' philosophy or idea, ........ones life is about serving the whole in a way that is suited to the individual their understandiing , one can hold up a vision of excellence to a brother or sister but we must honor their path and allow another to be....... We have to look to how one uses experience this is where wisdom begins.....
Very often in tradgedy we see the catalyst of change where there was no hope .......


I would add the value of gratitude, for life itself all of it.... we too often get caught up in telling others what they should be doing and forget to really see how they are using their own experinces, their own life to find the perfection they already are.. no one is void of the tools they will need in their lives ..If we do anything perhaps we can begin by changing ourselves... this is where we can be of the greatest benefit....
Dante's Inferno
QUOTE (Supra Sheri @ Feb 7 2008, 08:08 AM) *
Brave, all quality change begins 'within', love is a process and as it evolves to a place where it isn't reactionary it blossoms into compassion natuarally it needs no doctrines or sign posts or allegaince to just the 'right' philosophy or idea, ........ones life is about serving the whole in a way that is suited to the individual their understandiing , one can hold up a vision of excellence to a brother or sister but we must honor their path and allow another to be....... We have to look to how one uses experience this is where wisdom begins.....
Very often in tradgedy we see the catalyst of change where there was no hope .......


I would add the value of gratitude, for life itself all of it.... we too often get caught up in telling others what they should be doing and forget to really see how they are using their own experinces, their own life to find the perfection they already are.. no one is void of the tools they will need in their lives ..If we do anything perhaps we can begin by changing ourselves... this is where we can be of the greatest benefit....



I find the Human capacity to love the most intriquing of our psyche. It is a powerful form of expression but can also be incredibly destructive to the psyche. As a species it isn't necessary for passing on of our genetic information so why do we have it?
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (brave_new_world @ Feb 6 2008, 09:26 PM) *
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And love is not the answer when the absence of love is the cause of this??

You have gotten this part WRONG.................that pic of the starving child is not like that because no one loves him/her......the child is starved..just like its patents...we all know there are third world countries out there, that parents would do anything just to feed their child..but they too suffer...but that doesnt mean their starving children arent loved...

And we have people that do work hard to raise money for these people...that I am guessing is out of love


But Love is NOT all you need..the Beatles where most likely high when they wrote that song..(bunch of hippies)there ..is NO WAY on this God forsaken planet you could survive on love alone...

HEALTH and MONEY is all you need..along with sunshine & rain to help you grow.&survive.most importantly HEALTH is really what everyone needs...
I can just pic some tanked up hippy going to a third world country and chanting to all those who are dying of starvation..ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE, FORGET THE FOOD MAN!!!!!!! wacko.gif mellow.gif
Mattshark
QUOTE (Dante's Inferno @ Feb 7 2008, 03:34 AM) *
I find the Human capacity to love the most intriquing of our psyche. It is a powerful form of expression but can also be incredibly destructive to the psyche. As a species it isn't necessary for passing on of our genetic information so why do we have it?

It is indeed a extremely powerful emotion. It also has been isolated in that the hormone repsonsible for causing this has been isolated.
truethat
Its poignant to me, poignant in the saddest way that the OP needed all that info to explain what each of us know is true implicitly.




Dante's Inferno
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Feb 7 2008, 12:06 PM) *
It is indeed a extremely powerful emotion. It also has been isolated in that the hormone repsonsible for causing this has been isolated.



If that is the case then theorectically it can be controlled, interesting!
Dante's Inferno
QUOTE (truethat @ Feb 7 2008, 01:34 PM) *
Its poignant to me, poignant in the saddest way that the OP needed all that info to explain what each of us know is true implicitly.




I wish that were true but I feel that many do not understand or even want to contemplate the idea of raising consciousness and therefore improving our way of life.
Cradle of Fish
So long as we're poorly evolved mammals, it's never going to happen. You could have a perfectly equal society where everyone loves one another, and all it takes is a few people who want more than they need and it falls apart.
Supra Sheri
QUOTE (Dante's Inferno @ Feb 6 2008, 06:34 PM) *
I find the Human capacity to love the most intriquing of our psyche. It is a powerful form of expression but can also be incredibly destructive to the psyche. As a species it isn't necessary for passing on of our genetic information so why do we have it?

I see love as a process of letting go of the limitations that bind us and limit us to expressing compassion as a way of life....
Nor do I see it as reactionary, it is beyond need and requirement...



"I wish that were true but I feel that many do not understand or even want to contemplate the idea of raising consciousness and therefore improving our way of life." Dante quote..

I agree with this so few ever really integrate as a whole person, let alone understand a compassionate awareness..One shows what they know...simple as that....
Username Deleted
QUOTE (brave_new_world @ Feb 6 2008, 09:26 PM) *
Humans have developed a wondrous gift for self-deception and we are simply brilliant at persuading ourselves that what we think is right for us is what is right for the greater good.


I find the above line amusing given that it is more appropriate to David Icke then humanity that he speaks of.
Supra Sheri
QUOTE (Username Deleted @ Feb 7 2008, 09:12 AM) *
I find the above line amusing given that it is more appropriate to David Icke then humanity that he speaks of.




Emerson called it genius to take personal imaginings and generalize them... yet we now see he misunderstood....We have alot of that going on.... innocent.gif
Username Deleted
QUOTE (Supra Sheri @ Feb 7 2008, 05:21 PM) *
Emerson called it genius to take personal imaginings and generalize them... yet we now see he misunderstood....We have alot of that going on.... innocent.gif


Yeah i walked into that, good comeback grin2.gif
Supra Sheri
QUOTE (Username Deleted @ Feb 7 2008, 09:28 AM) *
Yeah i walked into that, good comeback grin2.gif


LOL,glad to point it out, I expect the same in return...Deal.....welcome to Um...
Username Deleted
QUOTE (Supra Sheri @ Feb 7 2008, 05:32 PM) *
LOL,glad to point it out, I expect the same in return...Deal.....welcome to Um...


lol..Deal. I've been here a while but thanks for the welcome anyway.
Supra Sheri
QUOTE (Username Deleted @ Feb 7 2008, 09:34 AM) *
lol..Deal. I've been here a while but thanks for the welcome anyway.



Yes, you have I see....
Mattshark
QUOTE (Cradle of Fish @ Feb 7 2008, 10:18 AM) *
So long as we're poorly evolved mammals, it's never going to happen. You could have a perfectly equal society where everyone loves one another, and all it takes is a few people who want more than they need and it falls apart.

Poorly evolved is poor terminolgy, we are clearly well adpated since there are so bloody many of us.
We are also naturally competative and it is a survival trait. It is not necessaraly a bad thing, because competition is healthy, but it is how it is used that is the problem.
TBH I don't want to love everyone. I am happy to be civil with everyone though.
Supra Sheri
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Feb 7 2008, 03:22 PM) *
Poorly evolved is poor terminolgy, we are clearly well adpated since there are so bloody many of us.
We are also naturally competative and it is a survival trait. It is not necessaraly a bad thing, because competition is healthy, but it is how it is used that is the problem.
TBH I don't want to love everyone. I am happy to be civil with everyone though.



edit..mind change...
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Feb 7 2008, 11:22 PM) *
TBH I don't want to love everyone. I am happy to be civil with everyone though.

I see what you mean lol..it gets rather sickening when you see the odd one go around claiming to love everyone <--normally I saw hundreds of guys do this...they where high on ecstasy at the time w00t.gif
Dante's Inferno
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Feb 8 2008, 08:04 AM) *
I see what you mean lol..it gets rather sickening when you see the odd one go around claiming to love everyone <--normally I saw hundreds of guys do this...they where high on ecstasy at the time w00t.gif



i think its important to understand that with love comes acceptance. Therefore its not about running around claiming to love evryone but it is about running around accepting everyone! laugh.gif
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (Dante's Inferno @ Feb 8 2008, 01:10 AM) *
i think its important to understand that with love comes acceptance. Therefore its not about running around claiming to love evryone but it is about running around accepting everyone! laugh.gif

Nuts to that then pffffffffffffffffft tongue.gif I'd need an ecstasy just to tell everyone I accept them LMAO
Dante's Inferno
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Feb 8 2008, 08:13 AM) *
Nuts to that then pffffffffffffffffft tongue.gif I'd need an ecstasy just to tell everyone I accept them LMAO




rofl.gif Well at least you'd enjoy the music while you were doing it!
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (Dante's Inferno @ Feb 8 2008, 01:19 AM) *
rofl.gif Well at least you'd enjoy the music while you were doing it!

I used to go to raves years ago, I grew out of them...I now think of the music as a car alarm going off and people dancing to it!!!!!!!!!!!! any wonder they took E's..you would need to be high to like that music!!! ph34r.gif
Dante's Inferno
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Feb 8 2008, 08:22 AM) *
I used to go to raves years ago, I grew out of them...I now think of the music as a car alarm going off and people dancing to it!!!!!!!!!!!! any wonder they took E's..you would need to be high to like that music!!! ph34r.gif



Sorry got to disagree with you there I also spent most of my young life going to raves and clubs (many of them in Ireland by the way!) I still go clubbing now evry week But now I don't take any kinds of drugs at all except drinking the vine! Now I feel the music sounds even better!
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (Dante's Inferno @ Feb 8 2008, 01:25 AM) *
Sorry got to disagree with you there I also spent most of my young life going to raves and clubs (many of them in Ireland by the way!) I still go clubbing now evry week But now I don't take any kinds of drugs at all except drinking the vine! Now I feel the music sounds even better!

You arent exactly disagreeing with me....I never took those drugs either...my heart wouldnt be able to keep up with it, due to heath condictions...I normally got drunk though...not overly drunk....my brother used to take E's a lot and i saw how they effected him.....he would have stayed out all night, and then next day, he wouldnt eat a bite and he would have snapped the face off you as quick as look at you...thats called a downer..an he lost so much weight, it was destroying him.....I figured with the doe you spend on those stupid E's..you could have bought plenty of booze in stead...I thought the E's where a waste of money

Im in my early 30's now and I wouldnt go to a rave im too old for that stuff now..and yes I have grown out of it....I used to love the old classics though - IE Ultrasonics & Dyewittness Scooter ect
Mattshark
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Feb 8 2008, 01:04 AM) *
I see what you mean lol..it gets rather sickening when you see the odd one go around claiming to love everyone <--normally I saw hundreds of guys do this...they where high on ecstasy at the time w00t.gif

MDMA actually cause the release of the love hormone. Rather cheapens the emotion imo, as well as making you look like your trying to eat your own head.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Feb 8 2008, 02:43 AM) *
MDMA actually cause the release of the love hormone. Rather cheapens the emotion imo, as well as making you look like your trying to eat your own head.

Over here the drug was called DOVE
Dante's Inferno
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Feb 8 2008, 09:43 AM) *
MDMA actually cause the release of the love hormone. Rather cheapens the emotion imo, as well as making you look like your trying to eat your own head.



Ecstasy releases the chemical serotonin in the brain a naturally occuring chemical produced in the brain. Is this one of the main 'ingredients' in the love hormone?
Dante's Inferno
QUOTE (Beckys_Mom @ Feb 8 2008, 09:53 AM) *
Over here the drug was called DOVE

Actually DOVE is simply another street name for ecsatasy MDMA stands for Methylenedioxymethamphetamine. Anyway back the main point of this thread! I feel that unfortunately many people cannot see how love can help or even want to. The problem is and will always be the EGO the feeling of self preservation (The Selfish Gene) will unfortunately prohibit us from expressing universal love.
brave_new_world
QUOTE (Dante's Inferno @ Feb 8 2008, 02:25 PM) *
Actually DOVE is simply another street name for ecsatasy MDMA stands for Methylenedioxymethamphetamine. Anyway back the main point of this thread! I feel that unfortunately many people cannot see how love can help or even want to. The problem is and will always be the EGO the feeling of self preservation (The Selfish Gene) will unfortunately prohibit us from expressing universal love.


Many people including highly educated ones though have never looked into the accounts of genuine mystics who have detached from the ego and expressed universal love. I could give a huge list of great saints and mystics. However Ramana Maharshi is the best one in my view. He never took drugs as far as I know. He never took money and yet he literally attracted thousands of people from the east and west who came to bask in his love.

Either his brain was just overflowing with chemicals or perhaps there was something more to it than the physical. . . . .
Dante's Inferno
QUOTE (brave_new_world @ Feb 8 2008, 09:28 PM) *
Many people including highly educated ones though have never looked into the accounts of genuine mystics who have detached from the ego and expressed universal love. I could give a huge list of great saints and mystics. However Ramana Maharshi is the best one in my view. He never took drugs as far as I know. He never took money and yet he literally attracted thousands of people from the east and west who came to bask in his love.

Either his brain was just overflowing with chemicals or perhaps there was something more to it than the physical. . . . .



well deep meditation does produce a deep sense of bliss if you can chanel this bliss outwards it would not only profondly effect your own brain but also effect the people around you
Mattshark
QUOTE (Dante's Inferno @ Feb 8 2008, 06:20 AM) *
Ecstasy releases the chemical serotonin in the brain a naturally occuring chemical produced in the brain. Is this one of the main 'ingredients' in the love hormone?

No, oxytocin is released independently.
Mattshark
QUOTE (brave_new_world @ Feb 8 2008, 03:28 PM) *
Many people including highly educated ones though have never looked into the accounts of genuine mystics who have detached from the ego and expressed universal love. I could give a huge list of great saints and mystics. However Ramana Maharshi is the best one in my view. He never took drugs as far as I know. He never took money and yet he literally attracted thousands of people from the east and west who came to bask in his love.

Either his brain was just overflowing with chemicals or perhaps there was something more to it than the physical. . . . .

Rather an over simplification. People are drawn to people who offer ideas on enlightenment because they are generally confused about the world and want it to make sense. My opinion is, as humans we overcomplecate the world. We want there to be a point somthing mystical, when it is just far more likely that there is no point and we just are.
Chemicals are very important in such things, we react to hormonal control with out knowledge as well, check up on endocrinology and you'll find we are far more instinctive animals than we'd like to think.
Chauncy
LOL.......thats all I gotta say bout this thread.....LOL

Shame on you BNW!!
brave_new_world
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Feb 9 2008, 11:35 AM) *
Rather an over simplification. People are drawn to people who offer ideas on enlightenment because they are generally confused about the world and want it to make sense. My opinion is, as humans we overcomplecate the world. We want there to be a point somthing mystical, when it is just far more likely that there is no point and we just are.


Fair enough mate.

QUOTE
Chemicals are very important in such things, we react to hormonal control with out knowledge as well, check up on endocrinology and you'll find we are far more instinctive animals than we'd like to think.


I never said chemicals wernt important. I just simply believe there is something inherent in creation that transcends matter/chemicals. This isnt overcomplicating in my view (though it may to you).
brave_new_world
QUOTE (Dante's Inferno @ Feb 9 2008, 12:23 AM) *
well deep meditation does produce a deep sense of bliss if you can chanel this bliss outwards it would not only profondly effect your own brain but also effect the people around you


Agreed. Hence why many people feel a sense of tranquility in the presence of certain gurus and mystics (the genuine ones). Sri Ramana Maharshi and Sri Ramakrishna are testiments of this.
graylady2
QUOTE (Cradle of Fish @ Feb 7 2008, 04:18 AM) *
So long as we're poorly evolved mammals, it's never going to happen. You could have a perfectly equal society where everyone loves one another, and all it takes is a few people who want more than they need and it falls apart.


Exactly. Our most fundamental nature is to survive - not love. And we will try to survive by whatever means. If we're threatened we don't just concede and give in to the threat. We fight back - to the death if need be.
The concept of an equal society is naive. Equal distribution is not a human trait...we're born selfish.
graylady2
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Feb 7 2008, 06:22 PM) *
Poorly evolved is poor terminolgy, we are clearly well adpated since there are so bloody many of us.


So what if there are so many of us? Observe how different cultures treat each other. Different religions. We war against each other, we try to dominate. These are not hallmarks of adaptation...
brave_new_world
QUOTE (graylady2 @ Feb 10 2008, 01:01 AM) *
Exactly. Our most fundamental nature is to survive - not love. And we will try to survive by whatever means. If we're threatened we don't just concede and give in to the threat. We fight back - to the death if need be.
The concept of an equal society is naive. Equal distribution is not a human trait...we're born selfish.


What about George Fox or Mahatma Gandhi? Did they ever give in to violence?
Mattshark
QUOTE (brave_new_world @ Feb 9 2008, 02:00 PM) *
Fair enough mate.



I never said chemicals wernt important. I just simply believe there is something inherent in creation that transcends matter/chemicals. This isnt overcomplicating in my view (though it may to you).

I don't, we just like to think we are special. But we are just another animal. Personally, I think the sooner we accept this the better for humanity.
brave_new_world
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Feb 10 2008, 06:24 AM) *
I don't, we just like to think we are special. But we are just another animal. Personally, I think the sooner we accept this the better for humanity.


Your entitled to that belief mate.
graylady2
QUOTE (brave_new_world @ Feb 9 2008, 12:27 PM) *
What about George Fox or Mahatma Gandhi? Did they ever give in to violence?


You can't be serious... you come up with 2 names out of billions... those 2 people do not change the fact that we are born selfish and like to dominate... I know you'd like to believe they do...but you'd be wrong.
graylady2
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Feb 9 2008, 04:24 PM) *
I don't, we just like to think we are special. But we are just another animal. Personally, I think the sooner we accept this the better for humanity.


Sounds like truth to me. It's mind boggling to me that the cosmos are beyond gargantuan, with trillions of stars, planets, suns, moons and galaxies...and the big guy picked us to be "special"... But only if we jump through his hoops. Uhhuh...
MissMelsWell
QUOTE (graylady2 @ Feb 10 2008, 08:19 AM) *
You can't be serious... you come up with 2 names out of billions... those 2 people do not change the fact that we are born selfish and like to dominate... I know you'd like to believe they do...but you'd be wrong.


No one said that they were not born selfish with a will to dominate. The difference is that they overcame that animal behavior. Like BNW, I admire those men, I aspire to be like them. I haven't given into violence in my life, I make every attempt (like they did) to avoid selfishness as well.

I don't know that I'd call that love, but I do call it self-control and living by an ideology that I believe is correct. Just because we're born selfish, needy and with a will to dominate doesn't mean we should be so weak as to give into it.
brave_new_world
QUOTE (MissMelsWell @ Feb 11 2008, 01:52 AM) *
I don't know that I'd call that love, but I do call it self-control and living by an ideology that I believe is correct. Just because we're born selfish, needy and with a will to dominate doesn't mean we should be so weak as to give into it.


Doesnt mean it is our actual nature as well.
Moro
We can love, it's an amazing thing; one of many characteristics we have. But, humans by nature are vicious.
Instincts can sometimes be a horrible thing depending on the situation.


Regards,
Tom
Nik Xues
let us HONOR our forefathers STRENGTH by never being weak.
Let us TEACH our children to be by BEING

and IF you want my LOVE

EXCEL OR DIE!

I'VE NO LOVE FOR THOSE WHO CHOSE TO DIE.
Mademoiselle
QUOTE (Vanquish @ Feb 10 2008, 09:28 PM) *
We can love, it's an amazing thing; one of many characteristics we have. But, humans by nature are vicious.
Instincts can sometimes be a horrible thing depending on the situation.


Regards,
Tom



I was always afraid to admit that . But i think you're right .
Supra Sheri
QUOTE (Mattshark @ Feb 8 2008, 07:35 PM) *
Rather an over simplification. People are drawn to people who offer ideas on enlightenment because they are generally confused about the world and want it to make sense. My opinion is, as humans we overcomplecate the world. We want there to be a point somthing mystical, when it is just far more likely that there is no point and we just are.
Chemicals are very important in such things, we react to hormonal control with out knowledge as well, check up on endocrinology and you'll find we are far more instinctive animals than we'd like to think.

very well stated, we do tend to come at things as if they have a point .. what if they just don't, what if we give them the point as we go based on what we think we know????
Shankpin
If we can possibly step outside this programming that we are so prone to, see everyone as unique, as their own traveler, their own spiritual being, see with that light that we all have--- instead of this darkened halo that's instilled in us from the time we are born..Only then, can we find true love. That is the answer.


* oh btw, hey sister, how ya been? (hugging ya)
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