Higher Standard. A lot behind those words. That's really off the mark and unneeded. Please, I believe in God, does that make me lesser?

Hazzard is right in his assertion, and certainly not off the mark. You believe in God, and I respect that as I am sure Hazzard does. But the existence of God is an acknowledged belief and not a fact! We can all believe in God, ET, whichever - but if we want to know, the standard required is significantly higher.

Cheers,
Badeskov

wooord. and you cant prove that there arent any. oooooh *waves arms like a ghost*
(pointless post there buddy)
get over it

As always Badeskov is right.

I have never seen one jot of proof that any of whats been sighted, reported, filmed, or photographed has ever, in any way, been shown to be alien. I do not deny that some things might be alien though.



What I do deny is that there has been any proof of it.

From 1211.100 Title 14 - Aeronautics and Space, Part 1211 - Extra-terrestrial Exposure adopted on July 16, 1969 Link to Article.

This law was still in effect in 1992 when this article was written. It's possible that it's still in effect today..
Truth seekers, you can take it as a law to 'gag' witnesses...
But, I ask you, when did you ever see a bureaucracy let a fineable offence slide?
Seems that, in this case, Uncle Sam's let a fair bit of easy money slip through the net.
So perhaps some credibility for certain witnesses could be establish if they could produce their infringement notices...
Just a thought.

edit:typo

Theres nothing I need to disprove. You just keep on babbling like this buddy and thats all there is to the Extraterrestrial visiting earth belief, thats my cruel but true point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoytrHE821o

And yet another pointless argument by you.

Just for the record here, no one can definitively demonstrate (at this time anyway) whether or not ET exists. ET may, or may not exist...we simply don't know for sure. Personally, due to the vastness of the universe I'm convinced that ET most likely exists somewhere else. Now, whether or not ET has ever paid us earthlings a visit is another question entirely.

You have said this over and over...

If radar were 100% fool proof, and eye-witness testimony was the same as a scientific fact, we might have something here. But we both know that isnt so.

Skyeagle seems to have the ultimate proof of ET, or so he claims...

think of how may people live in this world so the size of the universe is too big for somehting not ot be there

Yeah, but saying ET very likely exists somewhere else in the universe simply can't serve as some kind of *proof* that ET has ever paid planet Earth a visit. See what I mean?

I have another question for Sky Eagle, since he's the one most often making this claim. For the record, I've googled, and haven't found any answer so far.

Forgetting speculative technology, how can something fly at supersonic speeds without creating a sonic boom? I'm a layman, but do know a little about physics. An object moves through air in the same way it moves through water, so an object with mass necessarily disturbs the fluid (either air or water). The way I see it, there's no possible way around that. (This link provides basic information on sonic booms. http://science.howstuffworks.com/question73.htm)

So how do these flying saucers essentially not disturb the atmosphere?

I think your answer will be that get out of jail free card that says something along the lines of-
"Nothing of ours is capable of that. This is how we know we're dealing with Advanced ET technology"

Which brings up the next obvious question.
If they have a physical mass, yet are quite capable of rapid super/hypersonic accelatration, without disturbing the air in a fashion consistant with what we know about air travel at such speed, why are they detectable by radar? Surely the abscence of a sonic boom would be an indicator of stealth-like capabilities.

Perhaps Vallee is onto something here...

Oh Im sure there are intelligent life out there somewere, I just dont believe that they are here on a visit.

This is were the believers like to throw in techno babble from Star Trek and other scifi TV shows.

I know and it seems that very important message is being either ignored, or forgottened.



Radar is reliable enough that it is used to pinpoint high-valued military targets where realiability is demanded and radar is used to control air traffic and in fact, is reliable enough to stand up in any court of law and that is what counts. Additionally, radar data is used by the NTSB and the FAA to verify events as they took place because of its reliability.

There are cases where mulitple dissimilar ground-based radar and airborne radars were all singing to the same tune in regards to particular UFO incidents. In other words, they were all confirming the eyewitness acounts so in that case, radar reliability wasn't an issue since mulitple radar systems were found to be in normal working order when checked during those incidents and weather not a factor. We are not talking radar sproofing, we are talking radar reliability where its reliablity has been demonstrated time and again.

So is question is: Is radar reliable enough to determine and corroborate eyewitness accounts in UFO cases, and the answer is; YES!!!!

How about officlal government UFO documents that have verified UFOs as authentic intelligently controlled flying entities from around the world that somehow, the skeptics tend to ignore?

Radar is old tech, real old.
Any glitches and goofs in interpreting it or caused by anyone using it have long since been noticed and worked out by studying decades of patterns and results.

Some aren/t and in fact, I was talking to a radar controller from Minot AFB where they observed a UFO hovering, but not showing up on their own radar.



The sonic boom problem is something we have been working on for a very long time, but not solved yet, hence my references to the AIM/FAR, and the work on the sonic boom problem by the military and NASA.

Ive wondered this myself too, but its not going to go anywhere without mentioning speculative technology. I for one think that if aliens have traveled here, they used some form of anti-gravity. Now i have no clue how anti-gravity would work, but if it is a real thing, it would probobaly be capable of some very strange properties. maybe being ables to alter the gravity around a craft, you could hence mask its mass, thus making it not even there to normal understanding of physics. Perhaps this is why the would also be able to travel faster than the speed of light. You mask the matter, you mask the mass. and if you have no mass, light travel should be easy.

You hit the nail right on the head!!!

When I brought up the 1952 Washington UFO incidents, the skeptics were claiming that radar back then wasn't reliable enough, so I pointed their eyes to references on radar history where the CAA had determined that radar in 1952 was in fact, reliable enough and based on that determination, its use was allowed for air traffic control of commerical air traffic.

If I remember right, it was Badeskov who'd claimed that radar in 1952 wasn't reliable, so I provided radar history that proved him wrong, which proves that your claim that he is "always right," is wrong as well!



I have stated many times that are cases that have a ET tag and there military and commercial pilots, military personnel, radar experts, and even including some scientist and astronomers.

Try and focus Sky...The no sonic boom claim!??

I claimed that radar wasn't reliable enough to identify rare weather phenomena and other such occurrences as well as it didn't have the computing power to weed out clutter from more frequently occurring atmospheric disturbances. You countered with that it was reliable enough to be used for air traffic control and the like. Of course it was, it was a choice of a not-so-advanced radar or nothing at all. But that doesn't rule out false positives and does not give it the ability to positively identify such a false positive as ET.

So you have thus proven me neither right nor wrong. Actually, you have done anything regarding your UFO radar detection validity.




Yes, you have and we have still to see something to back it up. All the people you have been referring to has to the best of my knowledge stated that the detected could be ET craft, not that they positively were so!

Cheers,
Badeskov

This one is really a puzzling factor in this whole UFO phenomena, for me. The sonic boom is being caused by the shockwave due to the passing through the sonic barrier of a solid object - it is literally due to the displacement of air. If there is no sonic boom, that would in essence mean no displacement of air, which in turn would mean that the object in question is not solid.

Then one could visit the more exotic explanations like, parallel dimensions/universes or the like. But that is a no go - either it has a solid presence throughout the whole spectrum, i.e. if detected by radar and being solid, it would also displace air and this create a sonic boom. Or it is completely out of our dimension/universe and thus displaces no air and creates no sonic boom - which would also make it invisible, visually and to radar.

Another option is that ET manifests itself as a mass of loosely connected molecules/ions which would let air pass through, but still be visible and give a radar return. But that is a plasma and we would have no means of proving that a plasma is intelligent as even artificially generated plasma can be shown to have seemingly intelligent behavior (highly erratic trajectories, react to outside stimuli etc.).

Thus, we are back to where is the actual evidence?!

Cheers,
Badeskov

Listen, my friend, we are not talking about something like concord, or air force one, or any craft that goes in the air. We are talking about a race of 'aliens' that were probably already inventing ufos while we still had hands for feet and bit fleas from each others backs. You cannot explain things like this in lamans terms. Maybe, they have found away to defy the laws of physics ( sounds hard to swallow, I know) but what I do know, is that if they have been to earth, they haven't caused sonic booms. It's highly improbable that they have, seeing as, to our knowledge, they son't want to be seen, heard or detected, maybe they do, but they wouldn't want to create sonic booms, for the simple purpose that if they are here, they are here to monitor us. I hope this thought crossed your mind, and hopefully the thoughts of 'they must be making pretty little pictures with their crop circles' didn't. Hopefully in the future, and this is pretty probable, that we will create technology that we didn't dream of, and it's happening right now. In the pentagon, in secret bases all over the world. You just have to realise, that right now, people cp=ould be making advances that take us beyond 21st century technology.


Food for thought. When thinking of aliens, think outside the box.


Thanks, GUNNARYSEARGENTHARTMAN

Ahhh, but there's the rub Gunny (if I can call you that). Are you saying the aliens aren't flying solid craft? Because it's impossible for something solid to move through the air without moving the air.

The main problem we have (assuming for the sake of argument we are being visited) is guessing their intentions. Since we haven't been annihilated yet, it's safe to assume they're not a threat, the odd abduction and cattle mutliation notwithstanding. So they fly a minimum of four light years, and probably much farther, to play games with us.

In the vernacular of the area in which I live, that just don't make no sense.

As to the technology angle you're talking about, I agree--there are things that are being worked on--both wholly new inventions as well as improvements to existing technology--that will be astounding in the next 10, 20, 50 years. I say that without knowing a whit about what will come.

My two cents If you came with a FTL ship and go the same as you come ,then what would be possible for this ultra-advanced race would seem outta this world to us for sure. Like the ability to distort the mass of air welll before you hit through it or just defy our laws as we wrote them for us to understand. We may someday get to share the unexplained-mysteries .DONTEATUS

Either way, you would have to displace air comparable to the volume of the craft thus creating a sonic boom when passing the sound barrier.

Cheers,
Badeskov

The key is they would displace the air and I belive thay can and do this every time they enter our world or any other its like the speedy wax on there ship.but its just an thought kinda like the bow of a boat.reduces friction ,rumors of a russian device 10 or so yrs ago on a X-plane they were trying. even some leaks on the stealth planes here.

Well by thinking about how big the universe is, aliens are real. Unless people think we are born out of evolveution then how did anouther planet evolve.

No, not really. No matter how aerodynamic ET can make their crafts, they still need to displace a volume of air corresponding to that of their ship and they have to do it at the speed that they are traveling. The displacement of the air is what creates the sonic and the shape of the craft (a square box or an ultra-aerodynamic shape) really just influences the amount of fuel consumed - well and then a few other things like "flyability" and so on

Cheers,
Badeskov

But where do those archaic (by the aliens standards) machines fit in, if we're working off advanced FTL tech, here?

I see nobody has attemped a plausible alternative explanation for those either (either why people have seen them, or why advanced ETs would be using jet/rocket propelled craft)...

Hi Evangium,

I am sorry, but I think I missed out on something here. Where did the archaic machines come into play?! I always here "but, they are so advanced and of course have FTL"; well, maybe not in son many words, but reading between the lines. I haven't heard that they use jet/rocket propelled craft. Then again, I have not been around frequently due to other pressing matters

Cheers,
Badeskov

Indeed, but that is not really the point here. I think you will be very hard pressed to find one here arguing that there is no life whatsoever elsewhere in the Universe - the question is whether some of said lifeis visiting Earth.

Cheers,
Badeskov

G'day Badeskov,

About 3 or 4 pages back, I rolled out some of the more bizzare UFO sightings from the turn of last century and two from the early years of the modern UFO phenomena, where the technology described, from those sightings, was on par if not only slightly more advanced than our own at the time.

It's more in line with Vallee's thinking that the UFO phenomena (if looked holistically and assuming that more mundane explanations do not exist) is part socio-pscyological and part (for lack of a better phrase) deus ex machina.

The advanced tech/FTL spaceship argument is shown through the consideration of this alternate line of thinking to be guilty of the vey same dismissal/debunking of cases that the adherrents of the ETH/Spaceship claim that skeptics are of the whole phenomena.

Actually, it is revelant and why even the Air Force noted the significance of the lack of sonic booms whenever UFOs exceeded the sound barrier that were being tracked on radar in addition to visual confirmation of the UFO's high speed performance levels.

It clearly shows that UFOs have mastered what we have been, and still trying to figure out for decades, and remember, it is all part of the overall puzzle that is very important to the issue at hand.

You have stated that radar is not reliable when in fact, it is so reliable, that it have been used in precision radar approaches (PARs) and other means of air traffic control where radar reliabilty is demanded for the sake of aviation safety in congested airspace and radar reliabililty is demanded for military usage as well, and I am not talking "radar sproofing" either.

Now, you would like to see the issue of the sonic boom dismissed when it is clearly evident by the fact the military has acknowledged the connection between the lack of sonic booms and UFOs that were tracked on radar systems, both airborne and ground-based.

Am I seeing a skeptical trend here in regards to your messages??? In other words, dismiss that, for which has significance on what this board is all about?!

Looking back into history, UFOs of the saucer-shaped kind were flying in our skies long before the Wright Brothers first flew, and that is a very important clue.

Actually, we are currently working on the problem of the sonic boom and eventually, we will solve the problem. The military and NASA has been working on the problem and I am confident the problem will be solved in due time.

So what we have are solid UFOs that are tracked on radars, exceeding the speed of sound and not generating any sonic booms.

A case in point; government UFO files documenting radar tracks of solid objects exceeding the sound barrier and not creating any sonic booms whatsoever. In those cases, the high velocity of the UFOs were also visually confirmed where radar tracked the UFOs beyond the speed of sound and I have posted several official UFO case files in the past that clearly documented the performance levels of those UFOs, which supported my assertion on this issue.

wait ,wait,I thought we were trying to finger out how the little green,and grey guys are flying FTL craft through air without sonic booms? If they can fly FTL they must be able to bend the air to suit there needs. We gotta have hope they have learned to do this so we can play someday too. Get me one of those to fly! what was that movie the Navagator? its didnt doo too bad zippin around the universe. DONTEATUS

Well, in this thread we are really looking to see if we can find any evidence of ET visitation, but as the OP referred to this topic after it was introduced by another poster, I presume we can dwell a little at it



Not necessarily. It is not really a question of bending the air, but more of removing the air completely from where they want their craft to be.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Right. So even if they had a force field or some other imaginative tool, they'd still have to push air out of their way.

Sky Eagle, how do you suppose they're able to do that?

Its the big red button on the dash that says really really quite mode LoL DONTEATUS

Is there proof of et yes is the answer and i am trying to assemble the evidence i dont expect i shall quickly but i appreciate the views of a sceptic though because what you say is true, i have read countless books which would say the same as me and some of the facts are relevant to the argument however so much tries to make us believe something has a relativity a meaningful connection to something which to many myself included is as good as nothing but as an example of proof woulld be if u could prove that the pyramids could not have been built by human hands. then it leaves u the option of et or animals

how do u prevent a sonic boom ? just add air after all a sonic boom is to my knowledge created by exceeding sound speed and pushing the air away and then it cracks when it falls togethher so insert air in the gap as air leaves and no boom

What the real question is, is not really sonic booms or light speeds, its stopping. What kind of seatbelt would u need to survive an emergency stop at 4 times light speed if the body of a spacecraft was within a gyroscope then the occupants could move any direction at any speed stop suddenly and be fine

Not that this is nessacarily related but aliens have to live on or very near earth as they would neeed to be prepared for no return as there travel is time travel. Going back in time is not possible for a solid state particle of complex structures, after all it wouldnt be just u that would have to go back (in a sttasis field to prevent regression of self) but also inanimate objects would reappear like world trade centres however we do know time slows the faster u go so break a certain speed and you would be slow to stand still (ironically this would mean that while u technically would have to be going hundreds of thousands of miles an hour u would be moving slower than a person walking by in normal time which of course would be flowing faster) anyway when you stop ur craft time passed and you have arrived in the future. of course u could send radio waves and non solid state particles back in time so u could record a place or event then accelerate the transmission to arrive ten years earlier. So either the aliens were happy to go home and find all there family dead a hundred years ago or they live near enough (the moon?) not to worry or they can accelerate holographic images which they send baring messages but from sattellites/craft orbiting near earth

Actually, the sonic boom is caused by the displacement of the air to make room for the craft and not the filling up the void after the craft has passed.

Cheers,
Badeskov

Hence the term "breaking the sound barrier"

Cheers,
MahaRaja (sorry dude someone had to do it)

Our science is just now learning and accepting that time is a product of mass.
The less mass there is, the less time there is.
Without large mass, such as planets and stars, there is very little time.

The possibility exists that for those who are on the far outer edges of star and galactic systems, what would feel perhaps like a four day trip to the travelers would appear to be almost spontaneous departure and arrival to those at the departure and arrival sites.

We are just now starting to grasp these concepts and not everyone is pleased. I imagine there was a great deal of absolute horror for some realists when they saw the first airplanes flying, and I suppose if you look at WW2 they also had some just cause to feel so.