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Rebelle*
QUOTE (REBEL @ Jun 22 2008, 07:50 PM) *
Ufology is starting to sound more & more like Religion everyday...(faith, hope, sightings err apparitions, second coming...ya know, the return of the reptilian overlords & planet triple X, etc) The Church Of Close Encounters & Latter Day Masters.


rolleyes.gif ... may be the reality truth is stranger than 'religious beliefs'...may be science without religion is lame...religion without science is fairy tales tongue.gif

My best guess blink.gif
Rebelle*
QUOTE (bee @ Jun 22 2008, 06:45 PM) *
You surely must know by now that skyeagle does not fall for your feeble traps......

I mean.....come on.......you'll be asking him what colour socks God wears next......

Skyeagle is not the font of ALL knowledge, you know.......but he knows a helluva lot in his field
of interest.....and I for one......thank him for sharing what he knows on this thread/forum.... yes.gif


rolleyes.gif ...He does know alot in this field...thank you yes.gif
REBEL
QUOTE (Rebelle* @ Jun 22 2008, 09:37 PM) *
rolleyes.gif ... may be the reality truth is stranger than 'religious beliefs'...


I agree thumbsup.gif but some people take it to new levels, if ya follow my drift.


My money's on the ETs but Jesus is a close second eh...
skyeagle409
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 09:05 AM) *
As always when Skyeagle posts .... Lots of UFO bla, bla, bla,... rolleyes.gif


As usualy, UFO debunkers making a mess of themselves by not doing their homework to determine the specifics behind the physical evidence found and the test results in the labs. In many cases, there were no terrestrial explanations and look what you posted.

As I've said before , some of my best support in proving my case about UFO debunkers, comes from the UFO debuners themselves. I noticed that you left out the Iran part for a particularly good reason so the question I pose for you is:

Were those objects over Iran in 1976, ours? Or, were they those of someone else?

The objects were confirmed visually by military aircrews and ground-personnel and civilians, airborne and ground-based radars, and even by NORAD's DSP satellite.

In case you missed it for some reason, you can review the specifics here, and then, come back and answer the question, which I will be waiting for.

Time for a recap since you missed it before!

__________________________________________________________________

UFO Dogfight Over Iran Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tYGhZ2X0I0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ9ptKAAwYA...feature=related


_______________________________________________________________

Ronald S. Regehr Presents The Iranian UFO Encounter

The presentation involves the account of a major 1976 UFO incident in Iran involving several unknowns, attempted intercept by two Imperial Iranian Air Force F-4 aircraft, and large numbers of civilian witnesses.

It includes an analysis of the technical parameters of the UFO's disabling mechanism that was used against the F-4s. The author presents U.S. Government documents corroborating the event and data showing that a U.S. DSP Satellite detected UFOs in this case, and the author's mathematical proof that the DSP was capable of detecting the objects
_______________________________________________________________


SATELLITES SPOT UFOs

A September, 1976 UFO encounter near Teheran, Iran may have been recorded by a secret DSP satellite. The incident involved two brilliantly glowing UFOs first reported by ground observers. One object, estimated to be 30 feet in diameter, reportedly went from ground level to an altitude of 40,000 feet, and was visible at a distance of 70 miles. An Imperial Iranian Air Force F-4 jet fighter was sent aloft and managed to aim a Sidewinder AIM-19 air-to-air missile at the target before its electronic systems failed. Apart from the visible light factor, this indicates that the UFO gave off enough infrared energy for the Sidewinder's IR sensor to lock on to it.
.

An impressive breakthrough in the confirmation of the Iranian UFO encounter was uncovered by researchers Lee Graham and Ron Regehr, of Aero-Jet in California. They confirmed that the UFO sighting over Tehran was, in fact, tracked by the United States military's DSP satellite. During their investigations, Graham and Regehr have located computer print-outs from the time frame of the Iranian UFO overflight, which show that the DSP definitely detected an "anomalous object" in Iranian air space.
_________________________________________________________________________


1976 Iranian UFO Encounter Documents from the National Security Agency

http://www.nsa.gov/ufo/ufo00017.pdf

_________________________________________________________________________


UFOs Over Iran

http://www.cohenufo.org/iranafjet.html

________________________________________________________________________


1976 Iranian UFO Encounter

What the Pilot Revealed


http://www.freedomofinfo.org/national_pres...i_statement.pdf


________________________________________________________________________
skyeagle409
QUOTE (theSOURCE @ Jun 22 2008, 10:25 AM) *
I've never seen actual ET. I haven't seen proof of ET visiting earth. My only conclusion is that ET aren't here.
Anyone care to change my mind?


If you can't accept viable and verifiable data and physical evidene, it will be like trying to change the mind of someone who still believes the world is flat.

Now, were those objects over Iran in 1976, ours? Or, were they those of someone else?


skyeagle409
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 09:18 AM) *
Exactly!!


And, it wasn't difficult for me to post the information requested, but was he able to deceipher what I posted?! No!!!

QUOTE
Why does it always come down to belief...I dont care if 99% of the world believe that aliens are here in their saucers......


That would put on in the same boat as those who claim the Earth is flat.


QUOTE
I only care about the evidence...


Well, answer the question as to whether the objects over Iran in 1976, were ours? Or, were they those of someone else.

The evidence is availble under the FOIA so you shouldn't have too much of a problem to determine which answer to supply.

QUOTE
If this were such a "no brainer" as skyeagle seems to think, then how come they are still called UFOs? Why arent they called alien spaceships??


In fact, that is exactly what the Air Force said back in 1948, and reconfirmed it in 1952 in its Intelligence report on UFO maneuvers.

Air Force Intelligence Report, 1952
Dewey Fournet, USAF

-Hey dude, I saw one of those aliens space cruisers blasting by yesterday!

QUOTE
-Wow, I saw one of their probes once...it made about mach 8 and I never heard a sonic boom...they are soo cool!!


It was cool to NASA and the Department of Defense, and that is why they are trying to find how it is done.

QUOTE
In the end...it doesnt matter if the whole world believ in aliens...if there not real. Remember back in the days, when they killed hundreds of thousands of people, all over the world, because they "knew" that they were witches!!?


And, remember, scientist refused to believe that rocks fell from the sky, which are now known as meteors. Also remember, the majority of UFO debunkers believed that:

* UFOs that zoom around aircraft and captured on radar, are planets, meteors, and stars


* A weather balloon was involved in the Roswell incident.

(The Air Force later admitted that no weather balloon was involved)


* A Project Mogul balloon was involved in the Roswell incident

(No such flight occurred and the flight the UFO debunkers claimed was responsible, was cancelled on June 4, 1947)


* Test dummies and accident victims of the 1950's, were responsible for an incident in 1947

(It is very obvious the UFO debunkers are out of touch with reality)


* Hypersonic UFOs are weather balloons

(Now, the true mindset becomes clearer)


* The UFOs in question, are plasma, eventhough UFO debunker Phil Klass discharged his claim in that respect after he was duped by a photo.

(Phil Klass made it known that he took a serious hit and threw away his plasma theory on UFOs back in the 1960's)


* UFOs that maneuvered around a satellite in 1984, was an air-breathing SR-71


Is it any wonder then, as why I have stated that one of the biggest mysteries in the universe is the mindset of a UFO debunker?
DEBUNKER
Skyeagle...in all your looking for the best evidence of aliens on Earth, have you ever found something that is good enough for mainstream? Something that doesnt spell mysterie, or UFO...Something truly, without a doubt, alien?
skyeagle409
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 09:05 AM) *
As always when Skyeagle posts .... Lots of UFO bla, bla, bla,... rolleyes.gif


Question for you! Why did you leave this part of my post out?!

________________________________________________________________

Ronald S. Regehr Presents The Iranian UFO Encounter

The presentation involves the account of a major 1976 UFO incident in Iran involving several unknowns, attempted intercept by two Imperial Iranian Air Force F-4 aircraft, and large numbers of civilian witnesses. It includes an analysis of the technical parameters of the UFO's disabling mechanism that was used against the F-4s. The author presents U.S. Government documents corroborating the event and data showing that a U.S. DSP Satellite detected UFOs in this case, and the author's mathematical proof that the DSP was capable of detecting the objects.
________________________________________________________________


QUOTE
What was it... and were is this "not from our solarsystem" physical evidence!!?



HOW TO DEBUNK JUST ABOUT ANYTHING

Part 1: General Debunkery


<> Avoid examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, "I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!" (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries' worth of denial free and clear!)

<> If examining the evidence becomes unavoidable, report back that "there is nothing new here!" If confronted by a watertight body of evidence that has survived the most rigorous tests, simply dismiss it as being "too pat."

<> If sufficient evidence has been presented to warrant further investigation of an unusual phenomenon, argue that "evidence alone proves nothing!" Ignore the fact that preliminary evidence is not supposed to prove *any*thing.

<> In any case, imply that proof precedes evidence. This will eliminate the possibility of initiating any meaningful process of investigation--particularly if no criteria of proof have yet been established for the phenomenon in question.

<> Ridicule, ridicule, ridicule. It is far and away the single most chillingly effective weapon in the war against discovery and innovation. Ridicule has the unique power to make people of virtually any persuasion go completely unconscious in a twinkling. It fails to sway only those few who are of sufficiently independent mind not to buy into the kind of emotional consensus that ridicule provides.

<> When an unexplained phenomenon demonstrates evidence of intelligence (as in the case of the mysterious crop circles) focus exclusively on the mechanism that might have been wielded by the intelligence rather than the intelligence that might have wielded the mechanism. The more attention you devote to the mechanism, the more easily you can distract people from considering the possibility of non-ordinary intelligence.

<> When someone produces purported physical evidence of alien technology, point out that no analysis can prove that its origin was extraterrestrial; after all, it might be the product of some perfectly ordinary, ultra-secret underground government lab. The only exception would be evidence obtained from a landing on the White House lawn--the sole circumstance universally agreed upon by generations of skeptics as conclusively certifying extraterrestrial origin!

skyeagle409
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 03:06 PM) *
Skyeagle...in all your looking for the best evidence of aliens on Earth, have you ever found something that is good enough for mainstream? Something that doesnt spell mysterie, or UFO...Something truly, without a doubt, alien?


Just answer the question I posted in regards to the 1976 Iranian UFO incident. I am expecting you to answer the questions as to whether the objects were ours? Or, were they those of someone else.

You have all of the informantion needed from the sources I have provided and under the Freedom of Information Act. I plan to make a point if you refuse to answer the question.

It is time to make the UFO debunkers do some real homework for a change.
DONTEATUS
Skyeagle do you have any more sightings or the new law suit on the Krecksburg Pa, stuff its NASA and DoD good reports I think Kean is doing the research? Thats a great event that could use a re-look.
DEBUNKER
QUOTE (skyeagle409 @ Jun 22 2008, 03:09 PM) *
HOW TO DEBUNK JUST ABOUT ANYTHING

Part 1: General Debunkery


<> Avoid examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, "I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!" (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries' worth of denial free and clear!)

<> If examining the evidence becomes unavoidable, report back that "there is nothing new here!" If confronted by a watertight body of evidence that has survived the most rigorous tests, simply dismiss it as being "too pat."

<> If sufficient evidence has been presented to warrant further investigation of an unusual phenomenon, argue that "evidence alone proves nothing!" Ignore the fact that preliminary evidence is not supposed to prove *any*thing.

<> In any case, imply that proof precedes evidence. This will eliminate the possibility of initiating any meaningful process of investigation--particularly if no criteria of proof have yet been established for the phenomenon in question.

<> Ridicule, ridicule, ridicule. It is far and away the single most chillingly effective weapon in the war against discovery and innovation. Ridicule has the unique power to make people of virtually any persuasion go completely unconscious in a twinkling. It fails to sway only those few who are of sufficiently independent mind not to buy into the kind of emotional consensus that ridicule provides.

<> When an unexplained phenomenon demonstrates evidence of intelligence (as in the case of the mysterious crop circles) focus exclusively on the mechanism that might have been wielded by the intelligence rather than the intelligence that might have wielded the mechanism. The more attention you devote to the mechanism, the more easily you can distract people from considering the possibility of non-ordinary intelligence.

<> When someone produces purported physical evidence of alien technology, point out that no analysis can prove that its origin was extraterrestrial; after all, it might be the product of some perfectly ordinary, ultra-secret underground government lab. The only exception would be evidence obtained from a landing on the White House lawn--the sole circumstance universally agreed upon by generations of skeptics as conclusively certifying extraterrestrial origin!





And..... To be a proper woo-woo, you must follow these rules:

1) Always obfuscate and try to sound learned. Mimic Richard Hoagland's style and you'll go far.

2) If you're cornered and asked for proof of something, always tell the person that they "can't disprove" your claims.

3) Memorize all the sci-babble terms used in the Star Trek series. They are very useful if you get cornered by a skeptic, and you need to come up with some sort of "scientific" explanation. e.g., Inertial Dampeners.

4) Always claim that the other guy is "closed-minded" and that you're as free-thinking as a newborn baby. Other woo-woos love the concept of "open-mindedness" and will take you into their inner circle without question. They have no tolerance for those "mean old nasty" types who demand evidence for everything.

5) You must believe that the word "UFO" means proof of ALIEN activity.

6) When your position appears hopeless, your entire audience is laughing at you, and you've lost all credibility (and perhaps even won a Kook of the Month) threaten everyone within proximity with a lawsuit. You don't need to actually prepare a lawsuit, just make the threat. That will let them know you're a serious person.

7) Refer to anyone who does not immediately agree with you as being uneducated on the matter, lacking in important information, or just plain too stupid to understand your magnificent statements.

8) Keep trotting out the one "respectable" scientist who might possibly have said something that could be construed as perhaps giving a hint that it may theoretically support your position. Even better if said scientist has said it outright. Ignore all complaints that the work is 50 years out of date, the scientist has no experience in the field in question or that other experts in the same field think said scientist is a complete loony.

9) When all else fails, try to redefine what "skeptical", "skeptic" and "skepticism" mean so that you become a 'real' skeptic who accepts your own nonsense at face value.

10) Whenever you read something on the Internet, re-post it as fact.


DEBUNKER
QUOTE (skyeagle409 @ Jun 22 2008, 01:56 PM) *
Now, were those objects over Iran in 1976, ours? Or, were they those of someone else?




I have no idea...and neither do you.

If that happend at all...it was too bad that the pilot couldnt shoot it down...then we would have been able to take a closer look at it. Maybe even say hello to the pilot. laugh.gif
Agent. Mulder
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 05:59 PM) *
10) Whenever you read something on the Internet, re-post it as fact.[/b]


ummm, Skeptics to this All the time to try and prove something wrong. is it ok when they do it then?
i fail to see your point with that
skyeagle409
QUOTE (DONTEATUS @ Jun 22 2008, 05:30 PM) *
Skyeagle do you have any more sightings or the new law suit on the Krecksburg Pa, stuff its NASA and DoD good reports I think Kean is doing the research? Thats a great event that could use a re-look.


Yes, and the reports are flowing in by the month.

For an example, on my trip back to California from an assignment at Andrews AFB, near Washington D.C., I was made aware of an incident where we sent up fighters to intercept a UFO that was flying from east to west, but the object was too fast. Since the Air Force doesn't like to publicize incidents and encounters where the UFOs in question outmaneuver our aircraft, the public goes on with their duties not knowing that Air Force jets encountered flying saucers.

In regards to Kecksberg recovery, I plan to hit more on the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit, Project Moon Dust, and Operation Blue Fly in regards to recovered spacecraft.

When the U. S. Army's Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit was initiated, which has been verified by the U. S. Army under the FOIA years ago, we were still years away from launching our first spacecraft, so the question is:

Whose spacecraft recovery were they involved in at the time?

I am going to follow-up on other information as well.



AstroPro
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 02:07 PM) *
I have no idea...and neither do you.

If that happend at all...it was too bad that the pilot couldnt shoot it down...then we would have been able to take a closer look at it. Maybe even say hello to the pilot. laugh.gif


And such an event would be on the front page of the New York Times for all to know? Nonsense. If it was shot down we wouldn't have heard of the event to begin with. A January 31, 1949 FBI memo specifically stated that the Army and Air Force considered the subject of UFOs to be Top Secret. The formerly classified Wilbert Smith document also testified to this effect stating that "Flying Saucers exist" and that "the matter is the most highly classified subject in the United States Government, rating higher even than the H-bomb." It's not a conspiracy to withhold the truth, it's called following the law. If definitive evidence fell into the laps of the government, it is without question that such evidence would be locked up in government vaults. Anyone that finds this to be conspiratorial paranoia doesn't know a thing about how the government operates.
skyeagle409
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 06:07 PM) *
I have no idea...and neither do you.


Of course I do, which is why I challenged you to answer the question in the first place!

QUOTE
If that happend at all...


With all of the information that I have already provided, you have once again, proven my case about UFO debunkers, and done so beyond any doubt. Now once again, with the information provided:

Were those objects ours? Or, those of someone else?

You are not going to weasle out of this one as UFO debunkers normally try to do, so just answer the question.

QUOTE
'it was too bad that the pilot couldnt shoot it down...then we would have been able to take a closer look at it. Maybe even say hello to the pilot. laugh.gif


Apparently, the object shutdown his system, which you would have known about had you done your homework.

UFO debunkers are just all talk and nothing else to deal with the facts.
skyeagle409
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 05:59 PM) *
And..... To be a proper woo-woo, you must follow these rules:


How laughable, considering that the UFO debunkers failed to refute any of the case files in question, which once again, proves my point about the UFO debunkers.
morrison1976
QUOTE
I have no idea...and neither do you.

If that happend at all...it was too bad that the pilot couldnt shoot it down...then we would have been able to take a closer look at it. Maybe even say hello to the pilot.


Are you actually interested on what it could have been? Instead of saying the same old stuff, give me proof its ET, give me evidence its ET etc, do you ever wonder what some of these ufo's could be? Like i said before, there is more than enough evidence that some ufo's are completly unexplained, but some people on here dont even care about that, or find it strange. Off course we all want proof that some of these ufo's are ET, but to do this we need to take the subject seriously! and thats not happening at the moment.

DEBUNKER
QUOTE (morrison1976 @ Jun 22 2008, 06:41 PM) *
Are you actually interested on what it could have been?


I am interested...but what to do if there is no known explanation....Im perfectly happy with leaving a UFO unexplained. Could some UFOs be ET...yes...Is there evidence of this to be the case...no.

QUOTE
we need to take the subject seriously! and thats not happening at the moment.


I wonder why. rolleyes.gif
DEBUNKER
QUOTE (Agent. Mulder @ Jun 22 2008, 06:07 PM) *
ummm, Skeptics to this All the time to try and prove something wrong. is it ok when they do it then?
i fail to see your point with that


Its ok... 9 out of 10 isnt bad. w00t.gif
DEBUNKER
QUOTE (skyeagle409 @ Jun 22 2008, 06:40 PM) *
[/b][/size]
How laughable, considering that the UFO debunkers failed to refute any of the case files in question, which once again, proves my point about the UFO debunkers.


Whats laughable is that you still believe that skeptics have to refute or disprove anything at all.
morrison1976
QUOTE
I am interested...but what to do if there is no known explanation....Im perfectly happy with leaving a UFO unexplained. Could some UFOs be ET...yes...Is there evidence of this to be the case...no.


QUOTE
I wonder why.


Hmmmmm! you tell me! there are plenty of unexplained cases out there, so why is it not taked seriously. You say " i wonder why" as if its all a joke, and unexplained cases mean nothing. Thats def not the way to look at it. You can be interested in ufo's not because you believe they are ET, but because evidence says that some of these ufo's are very strange indeed, but how are we going to get to the bottom of this when the subject is not taken seriously?
AstroPro
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 02:49 PM) *
I am interested...but what to do if there is no known explanation....Im perfectly happy with leaving a UFO unexplained. Could some UFOs be ET...yes...Is there evidence of this to be the case...no.


Evidence? Yes. Proof? No. You can have evidence without proof, but just because you don't have proof does not mean you don't have evidence. Landing trace residue, physical effects on the environment, observers or inanimate objects in the vicinity of an approaching UFO verifies the presence of a craft. Once you establish the presence of a craft, the question becomes: Who manufactured it? As I also established earlier, in cases where the object in question was seen at close enough proximity to determine that the UFO has a definite shape and surface texture, and displays flight capabilities far in advance of anything we have ever had, especially in the 40s and 50s when we were still toying with chemical rockets as a means of propulsion, the earthly hypothesis is untenable and irrational. Clearly, SOME UFOs are piloted by non-human intelligences, ergo -- ETI. Another thing I will reiterate is the fact that, simply because we don't have such definitive "proof" in the public domain, doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist. Michael Shermer always whines about the fact that noone can present him the piece of a flying saucer, or an alien body. No kidding. As I established earlier, such sensitive material would undoubtedly be locked up in government vaults.

QUOTE
I wonder why. rolleyes.gif


As I stated previously in response to a similar sarcastic statement concerning why scientists and academics tend not to approach the subject:

A 1977 poll of the American Astronomical Society about the UFO phenomenon conducted by Stanford Astrophysicist Peter Sturrock showed that the more the physicists had read about the subject, the more they thought it deserved further study. The less they had read, the less they felt it deserved further study. Obviously, the evidence is compelling to those outside of the UFO community if they are willing to do research before making unfounded proclamations. Dr. J. Allen Hynek polled forty-five fellow astronomers and discovered them all to be frightened of "jeopardizing their careers" by showing interest in UFOs. Ridicule and job endangerment are the primary impediments to serious UFO investigations being undertaken by the academic and scientific community. It has nothing to do with a lack of compelling evidence.

I might also add that a poll taken by Industrial Research and Development Magazine, which was a controlled circulation monthly publication going to about 100,000 people involved in research and development activities, back in 1971 and 1979, also showed a higher percentage in the "Definitely" or "Probably" options concerning whether UFOs exist. The most heavily favored origin also happened to be "outer space" with 44% in 1979, with 4 other possibilities: USA, Communist Nations, Natural Phenomena or Undecided. 40% of the R&D readers had a BS degree, 25% had a
Masters degree, and 23% had a PhD. It was also found that perhaps 8-12% of the respondants have had sightings.
Agent. Mulder
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 06:54 PM) *
Whats laughable is that you still believe that skeptics have to refute or disprove anything at all.


whats laughable as well is skeptics providing Nothing to back up their opinion on a subject. or when they try to explain/debunk something, it seems their opinion is proof or the Only evidence they need.
FireMoon
1) Always obfuscate and try to sound learned. Mimic Richard Hoagland's style and you'll go far.

Just say I'm a professor but don't actually admit your discipline has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject being discussed. Or just say I am a scientist when the sum total of your research was counting the igneous plugs on Staffa during your gap year.

2) If you're cornered and asked for proof of something, always tell the person that they "can't disprove" your claims.

Proof is only proof if you are a scientist. Everyone else's proof is totally subject to someone, who might not have the first clue about the data and no interest at all in the subject, being able to say. I've never seen the proof, but then again i don;t give a flying fig so in reality I'm just another ignoramus despite my qualifications

3) Memorize all the sci-babble terms used in the Star Trek series. They are very useful if you get cornered by a skeptic, and you need to come up with some sort of "scientific" explanation. e.g., Inertial Dampeners.

Start quoting wholly irrelevant formulae and equations that only prove you haven't actually listened to what was asked and are only interested in reminding people how much you really know. Just like some precocious child who has memorised a new word but hasn't the slightest clue about its' ramifications and actual meaning.



4) Always claim that the other guy is "closed-minded" and that you're as free-thinking as a newborn baby. Other woo-woos love the concept of "open-mindedness" and will take you into their inner circle without question. They have no tolerance for those "mean old nasty" types who demand evidence for everything.

Don;t be open minded at all. Open mindedness in science equates with not getting a job and not receiving grants, After all had the geniuses who discovered DDT sat and thought about it for more than a minute they might just have worked out that there is such thing as a food chain and that if you wipe out one animals food supply nearly all the other animals will probably suffer as a knock on effect.

Above all completely and utterly ignore the fact that, virtually every major scientific break through was because one lone maverick refused to accept the then paradigm for what was * the truth*.

Don't ever mention the rank moral cowardice of the majority of modern scientists who, are quite happy to deny anything that might affect their ability to line their pockets with public/private money. The fact is that many of today's scientists are doing nothing more than , in effect, peeing on the memory of their truly august for bearers with their myopic view of the world based wholly on what *its worth in monetary value* , rather than * to hell with money i do this becasue i want to know and to understand*.

5) You must believe that the word "UFO" means proof of ALIEN activity.

You must believe the word UFO means no grant, no job

6) When your position appears hopeless, your entire audience is laughing at you, and you've lost all credibility (and perhaps even won a Kook of the Month) threaten everyone within proximity with a lawsuit. You don't need to actually prepare a lawsuit, just make the threat. That will let them know you're a serious person.


Just act like a smug pillock of the highest order and then disappear back to counting the igneous intrusions on Staffa again whilst holding court about particle physics in the media

7) Refer to anyone who does not immediately agree with you as being uneducated on the matter, lacking in important information, or just plain too stupid to understand your magnificent statements.

Be a smug dweeb and just talk down like those annoying teachers who, you later found out went home and let their partners thrash them within in an inch of their sorry little lives

8) Keep trotting out the one "respectable" scientist who might possibly have said something that could be construed as perhaps giving a hint that it may theoretically support your position. Even better if said scientist has said it outright. Ignore all complaints that the work is 50 years out of date, the scientist has no experience in the field in question or that other experts in the same field think said scientist is a complete loony.


Keep trotting out the one scientist who still believes that swamp gas was chasing that jet and that Venus and Jupiter can travel at 1000 kph in the Earth's atmosphere


9) When all else fails, try to redefine what "skeptical", "skeptic" and "skepticism" mean so that you become a 'real' skeptic who accepts your own nonsense at face value.

Try spelling sceptic in its' proper manner. We invented the language we will tell you how to spell it. As the man said... you say 'erbs we says herbs because has chuffin H in it.

10) Whenever you read something on the Internet, re-post it as fact.

The internet is the great bastion of truth if it agrees with the sceptics point of view, otherwise, it is the last bastion of the terminally stupid. If they only provide one link i's obviously untrue. If you only supply one link it's a fact..


Remember, most of all... Anyone who spells their name using upper case letters throughout... is, invariably, a complete and utter **** in real life...
AstroPro
QUOTE (FireMoon @ Jun 22 2008, 03:35 PM) *
Try spelling sceptic in its' proper manner.


To be fair, "skeptic" is not necessarily improper. There are two different spellings of the word.

Skeptic or Sceptic?

"Why do you spell skeptic with a 'K' when the English version is spelt with a 'C'"? is a frequent query.

Well the fact that (British) people notice and remember is one reason!

Skeptics in the USA, and in many other countries throughout the world, have a stronger identity than we have here in the UK thanks to the input of James Randi, Michael Shermer, and Stephen Barrett, to name but a few. Spelling skeptic the same way as they do helps with continuity, as the skeptic community is a world-wide one.

Also, using skeptic rather than sceptic, helps with search engine results as the vast majority of people searching use the American spelling.

The issue is not an important one as both spellings of the word mean exactly the same thing. Some people, however, do try to make a distinction between the two spellings as if they have different meanings: they do not.

The biggest confusion that occurs is where people look up sceptic/skeptic in the dictionary and get the definition of the noun: One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.

To be "a Skeptic" means that the person adheres to the method of scientific skepticism. This is different to being "sceptical" which means to be doubtful.

Source: http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php?dir..._or_sceptic.php
hazzard
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 07:07 PM) *
If that happend at all...it was too bad that the pilot couldnt shoot it down...then we would have been able to take a closer look at it. Maybe even say hello to the pilot. laugh.gif


Shooting down an alien spaceship might not be the best way to get our evidence. There would be little doubt among the scientists that it was an alien craft, and thats probably the only good thing about it, real evidence.

The bad side of the idea could be an interstellar war with a tec superior race. gunsmilie.gif
hazzard
QUOTE (AstroPro @ Jun 22 2008, 07:20 PM) *
And such an event would be on the front page of the New York Times for all to know? Nonsense. If it was shot down we wouldn't have heard of the event to begin with. A January 31, 1949 FBI memo specifically stated that the Army and Air Force considered the subject of UFOs to be Top Secret. The formerly classified Wilbert Smith document also testified to this effect stating that "Flying Saucers exist" and that "the matter is the most highly classified subject in the United States Government, rating higher even than the H-bomb." It's not a conspiracy to withhold the truth, it's called following the law. If definitive evidence fell into the laps of the government, it is without question that such evidence would be locked up in government vaults. Anyone that finds this to be conspiratorial paranoia doesn't know a thing about how the government operates.


Ah yes, the old.."The material that would be convincing proof has been collected and secreted away by the U.S. government."

While endlessly appealing, this is an argument from ignorance, its like saying "we cant show you good evidence because we havent got it", and perforce implies that every government in the world has efficiently squirreled away all alien artifacts.

Unless, of course, the extraterrestrials only visit the U.S., where retrieval of alien material that falls to Earth is supposedly a perfected art form.


Some have suggested that aliens would choose not to reveal themselves to us? However, Frank Drake estimated that at least 10,000 advanced civilizations exist in the Milky Way. Carl Sagan raised the estimate to 1,000,000. Would all those civilizations stay at home or choose to conceal themselves from us? It seems highly unlikely.

It would seem more likely that they do not exist. Or that they simply cant get here. Maybe the speed of light is the "universal speed limit" after all? Maybe there is no "federation" out there waiting for us?

We could be alone.
Lilly
QUOTE (hazzard @ Jun 22 2008, 08:49 PM) *
We could be alone.


While I doubt this is correct, I do think we're very likely far, far, far (add several more 'fars') away from anyone else. Could someone (ET) have figured a way around the vast distance issue? Sure, but without strong evidence anything we can come up with is only a guess (which is what I've been saying for a long time now).
morrison1976
QUOTE
We could be alone.


Could be, but its not very likley. I even believe we could have other life in our solor system. I dont mean super intelligent ET, but some sort of life.
Agent. Mulder
QUOTE (hazzard @ Jun 22 2008, 08:49 PM) *
Some have suggested that aliens would choose not to reveal themselves to us? However, Frank Drake estimated that at least 10,000 advanced civilizations exist in the Milky Way. Carl Sagan raised the estimate to 1,000,000. Would all those civilizations stay at home or choose to conceal themselves from us? It seems highly unlikely.

It would seem more likely that they do not exist. Or that they simply cant get here. Maybe the speed of light is the "universal speed limit" after all? Maybe there is no "federation" out there waiting for us?


whos to say they can get ALL get out here in the first place? youre assuming theyre all Insanely smart with the ability to travel such great distances. look at us. were quite intellingent, but apparently we can send ourselves to the moon and thats it.
and i dont believe its More Likely that nothing exists. i think the exact opposite for ET life.
Lilly
QUOTE (morrison1976 @ Jun 22 2008, 10:02 PM) *
Could be, but its not very likley. I even believe we could have other life in our solor system. I dont mean super intelligent ET, but some sort of life.



I agree completely. I should have said, "intelligent ETs". There may very well be simple life on Mars, or even Europa.
AstroPro
QUOTE (hazzard @ Jun 22 2008, 04:49 PM) *
Ah yes, the old.."The material that would be convincing proof has been collected and secreted away by the U.S. government."

While endlessly appealing, this is an argument from ignorance, its like saying "we cant show you good evidence because we havent got it", and perforce implies that every government in the world has efficiently squirreled away all alien artifacts.


We know for a fact that UFOs are a very sensitive subject within the government. It would be against the law to divulge the material. This is different than saying "I think they hid it." We know the subject is Top Secret. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's called following the law. To use the absense of evidence argument is thereby untenable and equally fallacious.

QUOTE
Unless, of course, the extraterrestrials only visit the U.S., where retrieval of alien material that falls to Earth is supposedly a perfected art form.


I already addressed this argument.

Many countries might not know for sure what other countries have learned. To be the first to stick your neck out could compromise national security. One can't tell ones friends without telling ones enemies. Additionally, the disclosure of such sensitive information could infuriate other countries not willing to disclose. This could create a pretty sticky situation. If one country, such as the U.S., finds the subject too sensitive to disclose, they would surely go to great lengths to silence other countries as well.

When the U-2 spy plane was used to spy on the Soviet Union, the Soviets could track the planes on radar, but couldn't shoot them down. They protested very quietly to the U.S. The Soviet people could not be told because that would admit that nothing could be done. The U.S. public couldn't be told either, because we were violating international law. Two countries don't have to "get along" to collaborate on keeping something secret.

There is absolutely no reason that I can see why a country wouldn't cooperate in keeping the secret, whether they get along with the U.S. or not.

QUOTE
Some have suggested that aliens would choose not to reveal themselves to us? However, Frank Drake estimated that at least 10,000 advanced civilizations exist in the Milky Way. Carl Sagan raised the estimate to 1,000,000. Would all those civilizations stay at home or choose to conceal themselves from us? It seems highly unlikely.


So you're a psychologist now are you? I see no reason why they would reveal themselves en masse. Additionally, I see no evidence to suggest they haven't introduced themselves already to selected audiences; in fact, evidence suggests they have. They wouldn't be able to land in populated areas or the white house lawn because these would be airspace violations. Our reaction is to launch interceptors to escort the invaders out of the area, or, as was the order given in 1952, shoot them down if they don't land when instructed to do so. Such a civilization would be foolish to force their introduction in the face of overt hostility. I highly doubt they would decide to introduce themselves using a fleet of ships landing in populated areas across the globe either. Seems a bit like overkill to me; it's completely unnecessary. A waste of material, man power and time. The argument for the aliens "illogical" unwillingness to land on the white house lawn is an evasive and irrelevant philosophical argument used by debunkers to avoid dealing with actual evidence; not to mention that the logic of the argument is fallacious. It does not appear to me that they are hiding, and it doesn't appear they are concerned with whether we accept their presence or not anyway. They can already go about their business with absolute impunity.

QUOTE
It would seem more likely that they do not exist. Or that they simply cant get here. Maybe the speed of light is the "universal speed limit" after all?


Based solely on baseless philosophical arguments? Scientific? How about we focus on actual evidence rather than evasive quandaries that are irrelevant to the potential validity of the phenomenon in question?
hazzard
QUOTE (AstroPro @ Jun 22 2008, 09:15 PM) *
How about we focus on actual evidence rather than evasive quandaries that are irrelevant to the potential validity of the phenomenon in question?


Fine, lets! You can start, by showing me this "actual evidence".

UFO believers would ask about Roswell, UFO sightings and alien abductions. The problem I have with the whole Roswell/government conspiracy thing is that there is not one piece of physical evidence. The government has never been able to keep any kinds of secrets, much less over a period of 40 years. Regarding abductions, none of the people involved have been shown to have any signs of tampering, which would be readily apparent by MRI.

Interstellar space travel is much more difficult than indicated in movies and television series, such as Star Trek and Star Wars and the like.

Traveling near the speed of light is impractical for biological organisms. Collisions with particles even the size of a grain of sand would be catastrophic. An even worse problem is that the light from ordinary stars would be blue shifted all the way to the gamma end of the spectrum when traveling near the speed of light. This problem alone might restrict the speed of space travel to a small fraction of the speed of light.

These gamma rays would destroy all biological life, even if it were in suspended animation, if that were possible. In essence, these problems would restrict the speed of travel to well below the speed of light. A most optimistic estimate for the number of intelligent civilizations in our galaxy is 150. This would mean that each intelligent civilization would be separated by an average of 2,000 light years. Such vast distances make contact unlikely and finding other advanced civilizations improbable. If these civilizations exist, they will not detect our radio signals for another 1900 years.

How will they even know we are here?

So, even if we are not alone in this galaxy, it would be highly unlikely that any extraterrestrial civilization could have visited us. The distance is too greate, even if they knew were to look.


The probability of aliens visiting the Earth is virtually zero.
hazzard
QUOTE (AstroPro @ Jun 22 2008, 10:15 PM) *
So you're a psychologist now are you?


I dont have to be a psychologist to look at the believers "evidence" and debate the posibillity of aliens on Earth with you.

Ufology is still struggling to achieve scientific and popular respectability, so it is understandable that public pronouncements of ufologists would be primarily in the persuasive rather than expository vein.

It can thus be observed that all the traditional tricks are followed... appeals to authority "Jimmy Carter saw a UFO", "our heroic astronauts have seen UFOs", assertions of the consequent "the Universe is so large that other civilizations must exist out there!", the bandwagon appeal "Most Americans now believe in UFOs'', the conspiratorial appeal"The government knows all about it but is hiding the truth", and the salvation appeal "The people from space will come to bail us out of our self indicted miseries".

It is not necessary to be a psychologist to examine your "evidence" and actual validity of such statements. What is important is to recognise them for what they are, tactics of illogical persuasion.
FireMoon
QUOTE (hazzard @ Jun 22 2008, 11:08 PM) *
Fine, lets! You can start, by showing me this "actual evidence".

UFO believers would ask about Roswell, UFO sightings and alien abductions. The problem I have with the whole Roswell/government conspiracy thing is that there is not one piece of physical evidence. The government has never been able to keep any kinds of secrets, much less over a period of 40 years. Regarding abductions, none of the people involved have been shown to have any signs of tampering, which would be readily apparent by MRI.

Interstellar space travel is much more difficult than indicated in movies and television series, such as Star Trek and Star Wars and the like.

Traveling near the speed of light is impractical for biological organisms. Collisions with particles even the size of a grain of sand would be catastrophic. An even worse problem is that the light from ordinary stars would be blue shifted all the way to the gamma end of the spectrum when traveling near the speed of light. This problem alone might restrict the speed of space travel to a small fraction of the speed of light.

These gamma rays would destroy all biological life, even if it were in suspended animation, if that were possible. In essence, these problems would restrict the speed of travel to well below the speed of light. A most optimistic estimate for the number of intelligent civilizations in our galaxy is 150. This would mean that each intelligent civilization would be separated by an average of 2,000 light years. Such vast distances make contact unlikely and finding other advanced civilizations improbable. If these civilizations exist, they will not detect our radio signals for another 1900 years.

How will they even know we are here?

So, even if we are not alone in this galaxy, it would be highly unlikely that any extraterrestrial civilization could have visited us. The distance is too greate, even if they knew were to look.


The probability of aliens visiting the Earth is virtually zero.



I knew your grandfather, he was the bloke who said any one travelling above 40 mph would be crushed by the air pressure, even though, ice yachts in Holland had been travelling at up to 70 mph for a couple of hundred years prior to the invention of the steam train...
AstroPro
QUOTE
UFO believers would ask about Roswell, UFO sightings and alien abductions. The problem I have with the whole Roswell/government conspiracy thing is that there is not one piece of physical evidence.


We went over the physical evidence piece. We have physical evidence – landing trace cases with residue – but we don’t have the piece of a flying saucer. We have enough evidence to establish the presence of a craft to corroborate witness testimony, but we do not have the proof of origin. So again, in such an instance we are left with two possibilities: 1. Military, or 2. Extraterrestrial.

As far as the Roswell event goes, all we really have is testimony. Loads of it. 600+ according Carey and Schmitt in Witness to Roswell. As a matter of fact, to my knowledge, the only individual that handled the debris that didn’t say it was out of this world (Sheridan Cavitt) stated that the debris would fit easily into the trunk of a car. He used this explanation to conform to the original weather balloon cover story. Little did he know it was “really” a Mogul balloon, which wouldn’t have fit into the trunk of a car. In addition, we know for a fact it wasn’t Mogul either. The launch was cancelled, not to mention the fact that Mogul is mathematically incompatible with the extent of the reported debris field. See here: http://www.cufos.org/ros4.html

We know for a fact that the government still hasn’t been telling us what really happened. The only alternative I find reasonable is Nick Redfern’s hypothesis that a post-WW2 program used the deformed and crippled bodies of adults and children in biological and nuclear experiments. Even so, Redfern’s hypothesis falls short in several areas.

So where is the piece of the saucer? I don’t even think that’s a relevant question. It is by no means foolish to assume the government is withholding the debris. It should be intuitively obvious that if such debris recovered, this would be the case. For instance, we know for a fact that the U.S. government finds the subject of UFOs to be Top Secret. We know this through official government documents. The government would go to tremendous lengths to keep any debris from being collected and distributed by civilians. To argue that the lack of physical proof – the piece of the Roswell saucer – is evidence that the event never took place as reported is ignorant at best.

QUOTE
The government has never been able to keep any kinds of secrets, much less over a period of 40 years.


A common myth. First things first: Established military figures are talking, and have been talking. So just what do you expect? The information is just as sensitive today as it was then, unlike most other Top Secret matters that dwindle in importance until their eventual disclosure. The reasons for secrecy are just as applicable today as they were 60 years ago.

Secondly, secrets can be kept, have been kept and are still being kept.

The Eisenhower library still had 300,000 pages of classified material a few years ago. Eisenhower left office in January of 1961. Obviously, those secrets have been kept. Some 60,000 people were involved in the Manhattan Project. When Harry Truman was Vice President of the United States even he didn’t have a need-to-know about the atomic bomb program. It wasn’t until President Roosevelt died that Truman was briefed on the matter, and, a couple of months later, had to decide whether to use it on Japan.

During WWII, the German communications code was broken. Obviously, they couldn’t tell anybody, because if the Germans thought their code was unbreakable, they would continue to use it. There was a group of 12,000 people at Betchley Park in England whose job it was to intercept German military communications and decode the messages, translate them and pass them on very carefully to the very few people within the government with a need-to-know. This information was not released after the war because other countries were still using the same cryptography devices and techniques that the Germans had uses. Word of this development didn’t come out for 25 years.

Then there is also the Naval Research Laboratory’s Corona spy satellite. It obtained more information about the placement and nature of Russian military systems than all the U-2 flights. The first mention of the satellite didn’t come about until 1995 during the NRL’s 75th anniversary -- 35 years later. Similarly, the design, development and operation of seven Poppy satellites used by the NRO to monitor Soviet ships at sea, launched between 1962 and 1971, wasn’t known to the public until 2005. Even the existence of the NRO was classified for years.

QUOTE
Regarding abductions, none of the people involved have been shown to have any signs of tampering, which would be readily apparent by MRI.


Aside from the many corroborating accounts of particular details never released to the public – the probability of which strongly militates against a cultural or psychological explanations – abductees are also physically missing from their environment during abduction scenarios. Independent confirmation of their absence; police are called, people search for the abductees, parents are distraught etc.

Many abductees have hysterectomies. In some cases, surgeons performing the hysterectomy have commented on the position of their ovaries, which seemed “pushed” to one side or “pressed” towards their fallopian tubes. Some women reported anomalous ovarian scarring, which is consistent with the theory that the aliens sometimes take the eggs directly from the ovaries. Others have reported vaginal scarring for which neither they or their gynecologist could account for, while others have complained of aching, swelling and general gynecological pain.

Dr. David M. Jacobs refers to a specific case of an anomalous organic implant that disappeared mysterious between visits.

One morning in March 1987, she awoke with gynecological pain so severe that she was having trouble sitting and she told me that she was now certain the aliens had put an “implant” in her. … I immediately took her to a gynecologist, Dr. Daniel Treller, who graciously agreed to see her on an emergency basis.

Treller’s examination confirmed that Melissa’s pelvic area was very tender and he ordered an ultrasound. The ultrasound team quickly found an anomaly. At the right side of her right ovary, but not touching it, was a mass of some sort. It was small, but looked “organic,” and it was not supposed to be there. The bewildered ultrasound team summoned Treller, who was equally baffled. None of them had ever seen anything quite like this before. Suspecting an unusual ectopic pregnancy, Treller ordered a blood test to determin if Melissa was, in fact, pregnant. It was negative. (Jacobs, 1998)


Melissa stubbornly refused to have it removed during that particular session. Treller suggested she at least come back in a week to see if the mass had changed or grown at all. She refused to go back for some time, but Jacobs finally convinced her to go a month later for a second ultrasound, but the mass was gone. Melissa was very relieved that she didn’t have to face having the mass removed.

Jacobs went on to site another case years later that was eerily similar. The abductee was 60-year old Lydia Goldman. Lydia awoke one morning with the feeling that she was pregnant, which was impossible not just because of her age, and the fact that she had not engaged in sexual activity, but because she had undergone a total hysterectomy many years before. Despite these facts, her breasts began to swell, she retained water, and had something akin to morning sickness which she recognized as the same symptoms she had when she had been pregnant with her children. She also happened to feel what she interpreted as something moving around inside her. Lydia made an appointment with her gynecologist, but a few days before her appointment she woke up and “knew” that everything was back to normal. All her symptoms had disappeared.

Jacobs goes on to hypothesize that the aliens might have withdrawn a potential fetus from Lydia’s body when they became aware of her intentions to get medical attention. This was not possible in the first case, because Melissa had been rushed to the hospital immediately that morning upon Jacobs recommendation. Several other abductees have even scheduled abortions only to find an empty uterus during the actual procedure. The hypothesis is a controversial one, though. We do not know how they could achieve such feats, but it is theoretically possible. Even with our primitive technology we are able to associate particular thoughts and emotions to various locations of the human brain. Perhaps a similar but more refined method is used to tap into more detail exactly what the host is thinking or feeling. However, there is no proof that this is the case.

Implants are a form of physical evidence often associated with the phenomenon, but with less than compelling results. The real ones, it would seem, are removed in much the same way as the apparent fetuses of the previous accounts. Alien implants are highly controversial and there is no “implant” on record that has been removed, to my knowledge, which has been found to be extraterrestrial in origin after laboratory testing. However, abductees suffer from lifelong nasal problems, bloody noses, sinus congestion, diminished hearing, tinnitus, and ear bleeding – which all happen to coincide with the locations in which they report devices were implanted during their hypnotic recall of abduction events. The associated life-long medical problems, although not the implants themselves, are clearly spelled out on the abductees medical records.

The alien abduction phenomenon is far too broad and controversial to sufficiently cover here. The bottome line is, no psychological explanation has ever adequately explained the phenomenon in question. Whatever the cause, no one has the definitive answer at the moment. Anyone that claims the phenomenon is adequately explained is either lying, ignorant or both. Sleep paralysis, for instance, has proven to be wholly inadequate as a blanket explanation. Even if every case of bedtime abduction did turn out to be sleep paralysis, this would still only account for about a third of the cases reported.

Referring to an article in the New York Times on the abduction phenomenon and sleep paralysis, Budd Hopkins argued:

During the first two decades of research when the very concept of a UFO abduction was formed, all of the central cases involved people who were outside their homes when they were taken. None were lying paralyzed and half asleep in their bedrooms. Instead they were driving automobiles, fishing, hunting, making their rounds as police officers, even, in one famous case, driving a tractor on a farm. So where do nighttime sleep paralysis experiences come into the data pool of these crucially important first decades of abduction research? Nowhere. There are none.

Source: http://www.intrudersfoundation.org/junk_sc..._paralysis.html


QUOTE
Interstellar space travel is much more difficult than indicated in movies and television series, such as Star Trek and Star Wars and the like.

Traveling near the speed of light is impractical for biological organisms. Collisions with particles even the size of a grain of sand would be catastrophic. An even worse problem is that the light from ordinary stars would be blue shifted all the way to the gamma end of the spectrum when traveling near the speed of light. This problem alone might restrict the speed of space travel to a small fraction of the speed of light.

These gamma rays would destroy all biological life, even if it were in suspended animation, if that were possible. In essence, these problems would restrict the speed of travel to well below the speed of light.


For all we know it could have taken them generations to get here, stopping here and there along the way and setting up outposts. They may no longer even have a home planet. Considering that the average age of Sun-like stars in the habitable zone of the Milky Way Galaxy is a BILLION years older than the Sun, there is a pretty good chance that if any advanced civilization extists on a planet near one of these stars, that we couldn’t even begin to imagine what they might be capable of, technologically. Look how far we’ve come in just 100 years! Imagine a civilization with a billion-year head start! To put the number into perspective, if you were to count to a billion in one second intervals it would take you over 30 years.

I think it is relevant at this stage to point out the many false arguments of arrogant scientists in the past.

Dr. Simon Newcomb in October, 1903, published an article "scientifically" proving that the only way man would ever fly would be with the help of a balloon -- just two months before the Wright Brothers' first flight.

Dr. Bickerton in the 1920's proved "scientifically" that it would be impossible to provide anything with sufficient energy to place it in orbit around the earth.

Dr. Campbell, at the U. of W. Ontario, proved "scientifically" in 1941 that the required initial launch weight of a chemical rocket able to take a man to the moon and back would be only 300,000,000 times higher than what was actually required as demonstrated less than 30 years later by the Apollo Program. Campbell made such pseudoscientific assumptions as that the rocket would have only one stage, would be limited to 1G acceleration, would be launched vertically, and would require a retrorocket to slow it down before return to earth. The NASA aerospace engineers and applied scientists of course used a multistage rocket, exposed the astronauts to several Gs, launched to the East from near the equator, and took advantage of the moon's gravity to provide some of the energy and the earth's atmosphere to slow down the rocket upon return. Making wrong assumptions usually leads to false conclusions.

Quote from: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfnyt.html


Skeptics argue that distances are too vast, and that the Voyager probe would take 70,000 years to reach the nearest star. Sure, but it also has no propulsion system. It's coasting. That's like throwing a bottle into the Atlantic Ocean to determine how long it would take to get to Europe from New Jersey. Others argue, "it would take 4 years just to reach the nearest star." Not necessarily true. Einstein stated that the closer one gets to the speed of light, the more time slows down relative to the occupants. Thus, at 99.99% the speed of light, one could travel 39 light years in 6 months pilot time. At 1-G acceleration it would take just one year to approach the speed of light. And why stop there? Tests have shown that a trained pilot can perform a tracking task while being accelerated at 14-G's for two minutes. That's an acceleration of 294 mph per second. Starting at rest, the pilot would be traveling 294 mph in the first second, 2,940 mph after 10 seconds, and more than 30,000 mph after two minutes.

Of course, carrying enough fuel for the voyage might be a problem, but who is to say all the fuel would be carried from the start? If you're driving from New York to Los Angelos you don't try to make the trip on one tank of gas. You stop every now and then to refuel. Cosmic freeloading also helps. Voyager might seem to be traveling extremely fast, but much of that is with the help of gravity assists, not rocket propulsion. Additionally, it wouldn't necessarily be practical to travel directly to Earth and directly back. Perhaps they have settlements in between. Interstellar travel is not by any means purely science fiction, despite what you may have heard. Usually, individuals that haven’t done any research in the possibility of interstellar travel are the ones that make these arguments. They merely gawk at the mind-boggling numbers and distances. Even many scholarly professors and astronomers are ignorant to the wealth of information available. Stanton Friedman once noted, “I have had mature scientists suggest it would take 100 or 1,000 years [to approach the speed of light at 1-G acceleration].” To be fair, this was probably off the top of their heads.

A common argument is that at velocities close to the speed of light, one’s mass increases as well, so it would take more energy to keep accelerating. But why keep accelerating? Most of our aircraft, boats and cars just accelerate until they get to a comfortable cruise velocity and throttle down to coast at a reasonable speed. Accelerating at this point just wastes huge amounts of energy for no real benefit.

Two of the greatest physicists of all-time, Lord Rutherford, who explored many atomic nuclei, and Albert Einstein, who determined that E=MC^2, didn’t even think that anything useful could or would be done with the energy of the nucleus. Others used their research to make revolutionary new technologies. By splitting the nucleus of an atom we had come across a radical new source of energy; far more than what chemical rockets are capable of. Perhaps if and when we can dig into the quarks that make up protons and neutrons we will discover an even more powerful source of energy.

I could go on, but at this point I will refer you to an article by Stanton Friedman entitled “UFO Propulsion Systems,” which might be of use: http://www.geocities.com/saufor/otherpaper...propulsion.html

QUOTE
A most optimistic estimate for the number of intelligent civilizations in our galaxy is 150. This would mean that each intelligent civilization would be separated by an average of 2,000 light years. Such vast distances make contact unlikely and finding other advanced civilizations improbable. If these civilizations exist, they will not detect our radio signals for another 1900 years.

How will they even know we are here?


With the necessary equipment, ET astronomers could have detected the presence of life on Earth billions of years ago. The Terrestrial Planet Finder should be launched in the next few years, and then even we will have the opportunity to locate possible Earth-like worlds. They don’t have to leave their planet to know where to look.

Another potential form of exploration that is mathematically the most efficient is with the use of Von Neumann probes (named after John Von Neumann, who established the mathematical laws of self-replicating systems). These probes would land at a given destination and use the resources available to make replications of themselves. These replicated probes would then scatter out to new destinations and continue the process. Eventually there would be trillions of Von Neumann probes expanding in all directions, increasing at a fraction of the speed of light. In this fashion, a galaxy 100,000 light years across could be completely analyzed in roughly a half million years! Considering, once again, that the average age of Sun-like stars in the habitable zone of the Milky Way Galaxy is a billion years older than the sun, a half million years is only .05% of the available time.
skyeagle409
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 06:54 PM) *
Whats laughable is that you still believe that skeptics have to refute or disprove anything at all.


What is laughabe, is that the UFO debunkers tried and failed already. Do I have to list examples where they failed from the past to make my point very clear?
skyeagle409
QUOTE (hazzard @ Jun 22 2008, 10:23 PM) *
I dont have to be a psychologist to look at the believers "evidence" and debate the posibillity of aliens on Earth with you.

Ufology is still struggling to achieve scientific and popular respectability, so it is understandable that public pronouncements of ufologists would be primarily in the persuasive rather than expository vein.


Haven't I mentioned before that some of the flying saucer reports on record, were filed by scientist? And, some of the reports in Project Blue Book are those of astronomers.

I am reminding you that scientific means and methods have been used to verify many UFO case files as reported.
FireMoon
On the question of secrey here's one...

The worst railway disaster, in terms of loss of life, was in England during WW"2... due to the secrey involved in troop movements to this day no-one knows the following.

The exact number of people who died, though it was at least 300 AFAIK.

The identities of most of those who died

The are hundreds of families in both the USA and Britain , who to this day, don't have the slightest clue that, their father/son/brother whatever, who was listed as MIA in WW2 didn't die on some foreign battlefield but was actually killed on an English railway line...
skyeagle409
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 06:49 PM) *
IIm perfectly happy with leaving a UFO unexplained. Could some UFOs be ET...yes...Is there evidence of this to be the case...no.


Don't tell that to the folks I have listed who have encountered the objects in flight or were nvolved in the investigations.

I posted the comments of the B-52 crew that came out and said the object they encountered was extraterrestrial, as what other aircrews around the world have been saying as well. And, their aircraft tracked on the object on radar and recorded the images as well. Also confirmed by military ground personnel and ground-based radar.

They said it was extraterrestrial after the co-pilot tried to look inside the craft as they flew near it. The UFO debunkers said the craft was a star, so what does that say about their mindset?!
AstroPro
QUOTE (hazzard @ Jun 22 2008, 06:23 PM) *
Ufology is still struggling to achieve scientific and popular respectability, so it is understandable that public pronouncements of ufologists would be primarily in the persuasive rather than expository vein.


In other words, mainstream science doesn't take UFOs seriously. Right? That seems to be what you are implying (other than the implicit "incompetence" of Ufologists). Opinion polls paint a much different picture, as I demonstrated earlier, but will show once more:

A 1977 poll of the American Astronomical Society about the UFO phenomenon conducted by Stanford Astrophysicist Peter Sturrock showed that the more the physicists had read about the subject, the more they thought it deserved further study. The less they had read, the less they felt it deserved further study. Obviously, the evidence is compelling to those outside of the UFO community if they are willing to do research before making unfounded proclamations. Dr. J. Allen Hynek polled forty-five fellow astronomers and discovered them all to be frightened of "jeopardizing their careers" by showing interest in UFOs. Ridicule and job endangerment are the primary impediments to serious UFO investigations being undertaken by the academic and scientific community. It has nothing to do with a lack of compelling evidence.

I might also add that a poll taken by Industrial Research and Development Magazine, which was a controlled circulation monthly publication going to about 100,000 people involved in research and development activities, back in 1971 and 1979, also showed a higher percentage in the "Definitely" or "Probably" options concerning whether UFOs exist. The most heavily favored origin also happened to be "outer space" with 44% in 1979, with 4 other possibilities: USA, Communist Nations, Natural Phenomena or Undecided. 40% of the R&D readers had a BS degree, 25% had a Masters degree, and 23% had a PhD. It was also found that perhaps 8-12% of the respondants have had sightings.

QUOTE
It is not necessary to be a psychologist to examine your "evidence" and actual validity of such statements. What is important is to recognise them for what they are, tactics of illogical persuasion.


You proclaimed to know how a visiting civilization would think and act and used this "logic" to argue the "improbability" of the ETH. Most people have trouble figuring out how convicts, rapists and murderers think, let alone an alien civilization. If that isn't a tactic of illogical persuasion I don't know what is.
skyeagle409
QUOTE (DEBUNKER @ Jun 22 2008, 05:59 PM) *
And..... To be a proper woo-woo, you must follow these rules

And..... To be a proper woo-woo, you must follow these rules:

1) Always obfuscate and try to sound learned. Mimic Richard Hoagland's style and you'll go far.


#1 doesn't apply to many believers, because they have provided evidence in the form of physical traces, radar data, which confirmed airborne and ground-based visual indentifications of the object's presence, and from other evidence such as optical instruments, which indentified the UFOs as flying saucers. That is why some of the UFO case files on record, are those of weather and ballloon research engineers and scientist, astronomers, and others, so scratch off #1.

QUOTE
2) If you're cornered and asked for proof of something, always tell the person that they "can't disprove" your claims.


Now, let's take a look at who was cornered.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...t&p=2355612

Scratch #2.

QUOTE
3) Memorize all the sci-babble terms used in the Star Trek series...


I have never taken anything from Star Trek to explain the UFO case files in question, so you can scratch #3!

QUOTE
4) Always claim that the other guy is "closed-minded" and that you're as free-thinking as a newborn baby. Other woo-woos love the concept of "open-mindedness" and will take you into their inner circle without question. They have no tolerance for those "mean old nasty" types who demand evidence for everything.


Being close-minded is an attribute of the typical UFO debunker, so you know the old saying" "If the shoe fits..." In this case, it fits the UFO debunkers perfectly, which is why they tend to confuse a duck with a moose. Scratch #4 by that very fact.


QUOTE
5) You must believe that the word "UFO" means proof of ALIEN activity.


Well, I did ask you to answer the question as to whether the Iranian UFOs of 1976, were ours? Or, were they those of someone else? You had more than enough information to answer the quesiton since the objects were confirmed as intelligently controlled objects, so it shouldn't have been too difficult to answer the question.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...t&p=2355557

so scratch #5.

QUOTE
6) When your position appears hopeless, your entire audience is laughing at you, and you've lost all credibility (and perhaps even won a Kook of the Month) threaten everyone within proximity with a lawsuit. You don't need to actually prepare a lawsuit, just make the threat. That will let them know you're a serious person.


Considering that the UFO debunkers were claiming Jupiter and Mars as UFOs that were maneuvering around aircraft, they became the actual source of comical relief to many others around the globe. Do you remember their multiple explanations regarding JAL flight 1628?!

Since the UFO debunkers have been making themselves the laughing stock in the eyes of the international community, and I can list clear examples as well, scratch #6.

QUOTE
7) Refer to anyone who does not immediately agree with you as being uneducated on the matter, lacking in important information, or just plain too stupid to understand your magnificent statements.


You know, one of the reasons that UFO debunkers have made themselves clowns in the eyes of many, is because they don't do homework, or do it properly if they do, which is why they were unaware of the rest of the story and went on a debunking campaign on UFO certain cases until the real facts came rolling in, so by that very fact, scratch #7.

QUOTE
8) Keep trotting out the one "respectable" scientist who might possibly have said something that could be construed as perhaps giving a hint that it may theoretically support your

position. Even better if said scientist has said it outright. Ignore all complaints that the work is 50 years out of date,...


I like that one, because after all of these years, the UFO debunkers have been unable to refute any of the UFO case files in question, even as new facts reconfirmed the incidents as reported. Scratch #8 by that very fact.

QUOTE
9) When all else fails, try to redefine what "skeptical", "skeptic" and "skepticism" mean so that you become a 'real' skeptic who accepts your own nonsense at face value.


I have differentiated between open-minded skeptics, which I am, and closed-minded skeptics, who like to claim planets as UFOs that fly in Earth's atmosphere.

Scratch off #9 by that very fact.

QUOTE
10) Whenever you read something on the Internet, re-post it as fact.


The fact that in many cases, the UFO case files in question have not only been presented on the internet, but can also be found in declassified government UFO files under the FOIA, in which case, you can also scratch off #10.
skyeagle409
QUOTE (hazzard @ Jun 22 2008, 08:39 PM) *
Shooting down an alien spaceship might not be the best way to get our evidence.


But. they have tried! In fact, the Air Force Academy presented an account to its cadets in its own science book where an F-86 pilot tried to shoot down a flying saucer. It didn't say, UFO, the report was specific in that the object was visually identified as a flying saucer.

You will also note that the Air Force had ordered its pilots to shoot down, not just UFOs, but flying discs.

http://roswellproof.homestead.com/files/Shootdown_INS2_82952.gif

http://www.rense.com/general78/feschinolulu.jpg
skyeagle409
QUOTE (hazzard @ Jun 22 2008, 10:23 PM) *
Ufology is still struggling to achieve scientific and popular respectability, so it is understandable that public pronouncements of ufologists would be primarily in the persuasive rather than expository vein.


You seem to always overlook the fact that mainstream scientis have published numerous articles about UFOs and in many cases, the more they studied the UFO enigma, the more they took UFOs seriously.

Now, we have found over the years that many of the flying saucer reports on record from outside and within Earth's atmosphere, were made by scientist.
SamWhiteHopi
Many will not accept anything unless they see with their own eyes and touch with their own hands and hear with their own ears. This is the only credible evidence for some. Total contact is only a matter of a short time in coming now. The celestials are not compelled to come to those who want a personal viewing when many others are satisfied with the obvious presented them in the form of personal accounts from an ever increasing number of NASA personal, past astronauts, pilots, 3D crop circles, UFO sightings.

Recently, most who I have spoken to directly or via internet sites I am part of, that are totally unrelated to the ET and UFO issue, believe in life forms other than that found on our planet. They also believe in a very big cover up by the US government. And some do believe, not only in visits, but also the possibility that many ET’s are living on the planet amongst us or hidden in caves beneath. Google recent polls dealing with the public belief or disbelief in these issues.

Love and Peace,
Sam (White Hopi)
skyeagle409
QUOTE (hazzard @ Jun 22 2008, 10:08 PM) *
Fine, lets! You can start, by showing me this "actual evidence".


We have already!

QUOTE
UFO believers would ask about Roswell, UFO sightings and alien abductions. The problem I have with the whole Roswell/government conspiracy thing is that there is not one piece of physical evidence.


Who says?! Rememeber, it was the Air Force that placed the news account that they have captured a flying saucer.

QUOTE
The government has never been able to keep any kinds of secrets, much less over a period of 40 years.


Goes to show how much you don't know. I was aware of what was taking place in regards to our submarine operations that were kept from the eyes of the public for decades.

The UFO cover-up is in the early stages of crumbling because so many government and former government workers are now coming out into the open and revealing what they know about UFOs, and even bringing along data and communication tapes and over evidence as well.


QUOTE
Interstellar space travel is much more difficult than indicated in movies and television series, such as Star Trek and Star Wars and the like.


So was the idea of space travel in 1900. Now, look where we are, and we even been to the moon in less than a century when man first flew the first airplane. Think where we will be in another hundred years! How about 50,000 years? Imagine alien beings who are 100 million years more advanced that mankind!

Just because we don't have the advanced technology, doesn't exclude other civilizations that could be upo to 500 million years , or even more, advanced, and I am very sure they wouldn't be traveling around the universe in typical rockets we currently use.
hazzard
QUOTE (AstroPro @ Jun 23 2008, 04:48 AM) *
You proclaimed to know how a visiting civilization would think and act and used this "logic" to argue the "improbability" of the ETH.


I never claimed any such thing. Quote me right, or dont qoute me at all.
doesnt_matter