No no noo im not, im saying that some of the evidence is crop circles.



Thanks GUNNARYSEARGENTHARTMAN

I think the best evidence for UFOs being alien spacecraft are the flight records between pilots and the controls. Pilots are the most frequent and direct jourymen into the unreachable high atmosphere so they must be knowing what's normal and what's not when they see something unusual in the sky. They are credible. Take for "JAL Incidence in 1987" as an example, and other numerous witnesses by commercial pilots and also aircraft fighters in the 1940s to date. Unless they were making up stories, I mean that's the least likely case. It is certain that UFOs exist. It's not something out of fantasy or the porduct of mass hallucination, they were repeatedly observed by fighter pilots in the WWII and since the age of Flights. Only two possible conclusions for the UFOs. Either a natural phenonmenon yet to be discovered by our scientists, or the spacecraft maneuvered by extraterrestrial entities. The pilots reportedly said the crafts showed intelligent movements around their jets, I mean, the only possibility for the origin of the UFOs are from the outer world. But the matter of alien existence is not something that affects our daily lives, not important to us though they deeply intrigue us. I guess it should be best left to be taken care of by the governments of the world and the military and maybe commercial airliners.

That seems very rational to me.

I agree

This is sooo off the point but i love battlestar galactica i watch it all the time! its well awesome. lol

While endlessly appealing, this is an argument from ignorance tantamount to saying we cant show you good evidence because we havent got it, and perforce implies that every government in the world has efficiently squirreled away all alien artifacts.

Unless, of course, the extraterrestrials only visit the U.S., where retrieval of material that falls to Earth is supposedly a perfected art form.

Some people think that proof of a coverup = proof of aliens?

They are wrong.

just curious. but what proof can you provide to show their theory is wrong?

I dont have to provide anything. The burden of proof is on those making the claims, not those who find the data dubious. If there are investigators who are convinced that craft from other worlds are buzzing our airspace, then they should present the absolute best evidence they have, and not resort to explanations that appeal to conspiratorial cover-ups or the failure of others to be open to the idea.

What u ave just said is contradictory to comments u ave made in the past, u say that they shud present the absolute best evidence theyve got, but in other ones uve sed that noone has ny evidence at all about hoose right and hoose rong? Im confused about what ur tryin to put across?


Thanks GUNNARYSEARGENTHARTMAN

Although, i cnt realli rememba hoo sed it soo if it aint u hoo sed it im sorry!

What??


Being from Sweden my self I find this to be a useful tool.. http://spellcheck.net/

Just to let you know, your English is pretty darn good (and it's your second language no less).

Sorry, i type like that when im on msn so i do it all the time on forums etc. anyway, what i was trying to say was that i thought that you contratdicted yourself by what you sed, but after looking back i have seen that it wasnt you so it doesnt matter


Thanks GUNNARYSEARGENTHARTMAN


O and did you learn english when you were younger or older, because good on you lol!!!

yo little child. you just made a claim, and said theyre all wrong. it goes both ways buddy. now provide me with something to back that up please. if not, keep the mouth shut i guess.

But then, you are imagining that alien artifacts dropping from skies and flying saucers sightings are very common and succeed often, its not the case. There is a very small chance for one, or maybe two, alien artifacts crashed in earth (maybe roswell...) be extraterrestrial. And the sightings, is something that happened once in a life time of a very few people, an event totally unexpected and never repeated for this same people.


As these events are so anomalous and we have no control over it, i imagine this for the cause of lack of definitive evidence or proof. And i dont think people would ever accept a piece of a craft or a piece of an alien body as definitive proof, much less a photography.


About ets only visiting US is not the case, there are events much better documented in other countries, what happens is that the american midia explore the phenomena much more. Look at Operation Saucer in Brazil, hundreds of testimony, military involved, pictures taken, people injured and even dead...

If you are going to quote me then do it right!

I said, "Some people think that proof of a coverup = proof of aliens? They are all wrong."

Take Roswell as an example...Were there a government cover-up at Roswell? Absolutely. Is the fact that there was a cover-up proof of an alien crash? No it is not.



Clear enough for you!?

ummm...thats exacltly what i quoted......i dont get it you said proof of a cover-up means proof of aliens? no. but you are saying Theyre Wrong. i never said it was totally true though. so i was just curious and wanting some evidence to back up such a bold claim.

How can I make this easy enough?

The people that claim that proof of a cover-up, at Roswell for example, is all the evidence they need that there are aliens on Earth, are wrong.

Proof of a cover-up is only proof of a cover-up. Thats it.

its not easy, i just replied back to what you said. then you didnt have an answer, so you tried to avoid it.
proof of a cover-up, is proof of a cover up? sure. yes. but when its dealing with a crashed "saucer" as released by the army-air force. isnt that proof of an ET cover-up? or still just a cover-up in your opinion.
i was just under the impression you had some info that we werent aware of, as you were able to say theyre wrong.
my bad.

Well, all im gonna say is this: what do we no about all this? I am a big believer, but of course this question is going to repeatedly come up in this forum, and the question is what do we know? what do we really know? we arent experst on the matter and obviously none of us here know what is right and wrong about this subject. We have barely scratched the surface on et life and them coming onto the earth. Face it, its going to be hard slog finding correct evidence and until then, we can only, how can i put this, make educated guesses to facts that we dont know about. Until that day we cannot be for certain either we have conspiraceies, evidence and truth.

I no its a bit off the point off what hazzard and agent mulder were talking about but i thought that i should point it out. I also no that most of you rnt gonna comment in a nice way when replying, so im readying myself!! lol !!


Thanks GUNNARYSEARGENTHARTMAN

Im not avoiding anything. You misunderstood my post.



I think its interesting that some people take the militarys word for something only when it serves their belief.

So, some of you believe that in 1947 alien rocket jockeys made a last-minute navigation error and crashed in the desert. The putative victims are generally portrayed as humanoid, if somewhat shorter than us, and with bigger heads - like children. While not impossible, this is unlikely. I think that the Roswell aliens in the stories we all have heard resemble us because we relate better to anthropomorphic creatures. Any real aliens out there wont be so similar. They probably wont crash, either.

Does proof of a cover-up in Roswell = proof of aliens on Earth?

YES to some, NO to me.

I agree with you on this HARTMAN.

I know that these aliens on Earth beliefs may be strongly held and are often tied in with self-image, passionate whishes or perceptions about the world around us. They can, however, be in the way when looking at the "evidence" objectively.

Unless we can eliminate all other explanations, then to simply say "it must be an alien aircraft" is extremely biased and most certainly not the way an actual scientific investigation is conducted.

You see, I do not deal in belief. I deal in knowledge. There is a vast difference between the two. You may believe all you want to. But knowledge requires a higher standard than that which propels belief. There is no reason to get upset about it. What needs to be understood is the burden of proof that science and its method requires.

As believers begin to build the case about UFO = Aliens, the foundation of this is built on hear say, speculations, theories, guess work, assumptions, beliefs and emotions. But there are no real scientific evidence or Facts.

Until we can prove 100% that these are not Earth based ships or other terrestrial phenomenon - we are guessing.

Exactly, we cannot base the conductation of a scientific investigation on belief alone, because the investigation will be biased on either ends of the string. To be quite honest hazzard i dont believe in belief either. I believe that if we base all knowledge of their existence on belief then we will never be able to find our answers, because if we first dont try to understand what we are talking about, our beliefs etc. we WONT get our evidence.


Im with you on your points on this comment


Thanks GUNNARYSEARGENTHARTMAN

However unlikely my money is on SETI "winning the lottery".

The Mission of the SETI Institute is to explore, understand and explain the origin, nature and prevalence of life in the universe.

http://www.seti.org/


A cover-up seems highly unlikely. Despite what you might expect this protocol is not a classified government document stashed in a safe. Theres no sealed envelope to be ripped open.

The text can be found on many websites and is straightforward and unsurprising. It states that scientists making the discovery should first do all they can to prove that the signal is truly extraterrestrial, then alert other astronomers world widw, as the planet is spinning, who would turn their telescopes to the new find, inform the government and tell the public.

The biggest discovery of all time would result in big headlines in the morning newspapers, followed by a blistering stream of radio and TV reports?

Seti practitioners and astronomers have no policy of secrecy, there are many in other contrys than the US you know, and consequently any intriguing signals they find are quickly noted by the media.

Picking up a signal from space is different from watching aggressive aliens land in the pastures. Its difficult to imagine galactic beings would ever charge across the dark deserts between the stars merely to harass the inhabitants of a small planet.

To detect a signal from other worlds would be wondrous. It would show that the appearance of life on this world and its slow, uncertain path to us - creatures that can comprehend their own existence - is not some improbable miracle, but a frequent occurrence.

I dont believe there would be a panic if SETI would find "something".

In the 17th century, when early telescopes were revealing great clouds of stars, French mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal wrote that the enormity of space terrified him....

"Space is enormous. To learn that others are out there would be a comfort".

The chances for SETI do discover something is about 0,5% or less, and they have a politic to not make public any signal of alien life, not before long study and with ok from authorities. Before spending so much money with SETI they should at least have a good look at these military reports of saucers and cigar shaped crafts reported all these years.

We know today is not impossible for aliens visitation.

No, there is no authorization rule in place for the release of such news, except of that of science. SETI will release the data when they, to the best of their knowledge, have a signal that meets the parameters. When SETI detects a signal, they will notify scientist all over the world to get independent verification (it is the only way they can really make sure that it isn't a local source interefering), and then the cat is out of the bag. There is no notification of Governments or other bodies like that before the science has been established.



Indeed - we might differ on what we think of the probability of that, but certainly not impossible

Cheers,
Badeskov

I read somewhere that exist a protocol to be followed by gov agencies and scientists in respect for et contact, discover or something like that. Made by US, which no one take serious and people make joke of it, but i think its real.

Then you probably never will,so why argue with any one else ?

Ahem, no comments Somehow I have no doubt that deep within the US Government some paranoid bureaucrat has dreamt something like that up, however, the necessity of independent verification moots that point. They simply need other parts of the world to tune into a signal to get reasonable local source elimination, but also to make sure that they get the all agrees on the extra-solar source point of origin. And given that a detected signal can disappear again any second, there is no time for Government approval - again, science, out of necessity, comes first.

And given that scientists in that field will be like kids, wanting to share the discovery, I have a hard time such an absurd rule ever having a chance of being enforced

Cheers,
Badeskov

If everybody acknowledged that we were discussing from a point of belief, i.e. I think ET is visting, then we wouldn't really have a problem. I think Hazzard's post was due to that some argue from a point of alleged knowledge of ET visitation, which still has to be substantiated

Cheers,
Badeskov

You are righ Badeskov. People are of course free to believe in whatever they want. But to become fact, it needs to be demonstrated that UFOs are alien space craft at the exclusion of any and all other possible explanations. This is why mainstream science, and skeptics like me, has not accepted the UFOs = ET space craft hypothesis as the definitive answer for UFOs.

thats understandable. i dont think ET right away when i hear ufos.
just curious, what do you consider ufos to be then (and pleeeease dont say 'unidentified flying objects lol i figured that much)

You figured right. UFOs are just that, unidentified.

Exactly, what more do you want him to say agent mulder? As I said in a previous post, 'we have barely scratched the surface on this topic'. What more do you want, schematics to a saucer maybe? The only answer that you're going to get is either unidentified or unidentified, which is quite a range lol. No offence, but try asking questions that are actually answerable, because at the moment the only answer to the question you asked is unidentified. And I'm sorry to say, that if you want more you're probably going to have to wait a very long time, a veeeeery long time


Thanks GUNNARYSEARGENTHARTMAN

lol, what the hell do think i want him to say? think about it. obviously if he doesnt go the ET hypothesis, what would he consider them to be? i was just curious. since im not totally sure as well.
what do you consider them to be? or the whole phenomenon? since people have many theories. whats yours

My theory is like lighting both ends of the candle. I believe that the government sometimes test new advances that are mistaken for ufos by people on the ground, i also think that people in aircrafts etc. see real ufos. Thats my theory, not whole conspiracy, not whole et phenomenon? Have i answered your question? Please reply.

Thanks GUNNARYSEARGENTHARTMAN

your theory is lightening......or just secret government projects/test flights?
i see i see

There are many different explanations for UFOs, alien starships being the least probable one.

No no you misunderstand me. My theory is balanced, on the fence. One side of me says governmenmt testings which are mistaken by people on the ground, and the other side of me says that its real, and that pilots, radar etc. do pick them up. sorry i wasnt clear.

Thanks GUNNARYSEARGENTHARTMAN

Personally, I dont think the basic concept of ET visitation is impossible.

I just dont see that the evidence to support the UFO = ET hypothesis is strong enough for me to declare, "theyre here". I do believe that they are out there though.


The Best of the Hubble Space Telescope.

http://seds.org/hst/hst.html

Those are some nice pictures Hazz,thx for posting.

less probably yes.
but not in the realm of extreme impossibility

Noone here is saying that it is impossible, or extremly impossible for that matter, that some of the UFOs are alien ships.

Could they be some new blackops project...(holograms,spyplanes,probes..etc?) Yes they could...Makes more sense then the Alien hide and seak crap.

Actually, many of the UFO encounters did not involve any secret aircraft of our military, and many of those military pilots will come straight out and tell you that the UFOs were those of ET.

I will be coming back on board in another week, as I am still in Texas.

yeah, its kinda strange when the Military (or their personell) will be the ones who report a ufo being seen. and its really interesting when they scramble fighter jets after it, and cant do anything about. except have it fly around them and basically be invulnerable.

Im sure thats what they thought it was. But for the rest of us, most of us anyway, we need more then somebodys word, radar numbers and pictures when it comes to the ETH.



Hunting down those nasty Grays are we!? Please tell me that you have something new, something better then your usuall "evidence".

lol his 'usual evidence' is pretty good. people just dont wanna accept it, or believe that it helps prove the point he was making.
i know he doesnt have a little grey he can bring over to show you though

Now why would secret military craft be hovering over main street?

What about the abduction phenomena?

WOOPS! Sorry for the gigantic image.

My dish dinner...