if this isn't the right forum for this then please feel free to move it.

i found out about this study when i was surfing Google video and came across this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As_xoLU4Gfk



We offer evidence that legalized abortion has contributed significantly to
recent crime reductions. Crime began to fall roughly eighteen years after abortion
legalization. The five states that allowed abortion in 1970 experienced declines
earlier than the rest of the nation, which legalized in 1973 with Roe v. Wade.
States with high abortion rates in the 1970s and 1980s experienced greater crime
reductions in the 1990s. In high abortion states, only arrests of those born after
abortion legalization fall relative to low abortion states. Legalized abortion appears
to account for as much as 50 percent of the recent drop in crime.

read more here.... http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Pap...galized2001.pdf

your thoughts?

very interesting to say the least .

Yes I have heard of this, and it is very interesting. Kind of intuitively makes sense as well.

I wonder has it been used much by the pro-choice movement? I don't think that the end justifies the means with this kind of thing, but it is something to think about.

lol I wrote an essay on abortion, I used some of that in my paper

As the article itself suggests; a "novel " correlation/suggestion. They go onto infer that crime has dropped because there are less young people (Who commit many of the crimes) since legalised abortion Well doh!

Another inference is that most of those aborted come from groups which may well contribute more proportioanally to crime, eg young blacks, hispanics or poor whites . Again this may well be true, given that fewer wealthy and thus more independent people have abortions. It is the most oppressed and depressed people who have the highest statistical abortion rates.

So is the article or the OP suggesting that abortion is good because it kills off troublesome elements of society before they can be born ? I dont really think so. The article looks at an interesting statistical anomaly and puts forward an imaginative hypothesis to explain it. Even if it was the case and could be proven true you coulkd acheive the same effect by killing off alll the addicts and other groups over represented in crime. . THe only reason that is not acceptable is because they are human beings. Well so are the unborn, and no one has the right to suggest culling them to improve society any more than culling young people ( or old ones. Who are, or will soon be, causing an economic cost to society equal to any criminal activity)
The rest of the article is interesting but actual incconclusive, given particularly that they admit that their calculations are"back of the envelope" in nature rather than a careful statistical sampling and analysis.

Abortion is a two sided coin.

I HATE when abortion is used as birth control which happens FAR TOO OFTEN !

It's a necessary evil sometimes and just another form of child sacrifice.

But I feel abortion needs to be kept legal or at least legalize the damn" morning after pill", the sooner the pregnancy is terminated the better ! < (if the poor child is truly unwanted)

I HATE abortion and feel it's not right instinctually

Actually, rabbits have a way of "aborting" thier pregnencies if the burrows they live in are to full.

(That's an odd factoid that is a pain in the butt to find a source from other then the book on animal factoids I read it from >.<)

Regardless, the women who use abortion for a constant means of birthcontrol shouldn't be mothers anyways, and after the second one, they should have a hysterectomy included.

Other then that, I'm all for abortion.

Biggest peice of BULL I have read to date

It s not like you to be so ambivalent in your responses BM,

LOL I know...but when I read pure utter garbage, sometimes it just gets to a point where I just sigh with frustration..and think its too dumb to receive anything more so its best getting to the point and sum up my thoughts in a simple sentence LMAO

I mean it was just ..........pathetic...were people get these idiot ideas from ?? Fox Television? Sitting on their bean bags with their little Fisher Price laptops and they make up idiot articles right before its their bed time!!!

C'mon, if it was Fox, it would have been "Abortions Cause People to Commit More Crime"

So the rule is "take a life to save a life" is it ?



fullywired

This is stupid...because.....

You are only comparing two facts, what about ALL the other social activities / services in a community that could be going at the same time? IE - Rehabilation program's, anti drug campaigns, crime prevention Urban renewal programs ect.....
ALL of these things could greatly effect crime rates together, abortion could not have such an impact on these statistics alone.

If you are trying to link abortion rates with crime rates, then what you are saying is that if ALL these abortions had not taken place....then all of those children would be criminals when they grow up.....................now PLEASE tell me can you see ANY logic in that?

I think maybe the article was hinting at abortions of rape victims, were by the rapist is OBVIOUSLY a criminal and therefore the child that COULD be born, would also turn out to be a crimnal, but were are the statistics showing how many abortions were the result of rape against all other types of abortion?
Im afraid that taking just two facts of abortion rates and criminal rates, and coming up with a conclusion is wrong and misleading, can in no way paint an acurate picture of what factors can affect the rate of crime.

To be fair, I'm guessing the number of illegal abortions went down considerably.

LMAO nice one....

all these programs do play a part thats true



and your reasoning for this? some how this seems to be just an assumption



well I'm sure that a few of them could have become descent people even with a horrible upbringing but lets face facts. most of those kids would have grown up to be criminals. there are quit a few places in america where if you don't join a gang when you come of age your setting your self up to be robed, beaten and jumped on a daily basis. one of the saddest things is that there are so many kids who really don't want to get involved with gangs and crime but because of where they live they don't have much of a choice. being raised in poor conditions whether they be environmental or parental does lead allot of kids to turn to crime that is a fact. i know you always here about people who came from a horrible house hold and then go on to do great things but these people are a very small minority and lets face it most of there piers in those types of circumstances don't turn out so well. <-- thats putting it mildly. so i ask you: whats worse? being born into horrible conditions that are more then likely going $#@& you over for life or never being born at all?



are you serious or are you just making up BS to make it look bad?



i could say something here but i think the first 55 seconds of that video explained it pretty well.

Ohhh riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight and I guess the article was not an assumption??? it actually holds facts....right?? get out of it LMAO...the article was not well thought out, no one can actually prove for sure that babies born would turn out just like the father because of him being a criminal.....where these idiots get this from is just MAD!


Well let me ask you this............why is it that you are ASSUMING that only people living in poor areas have abortions??? tell me WHY you are so freaking quick to assume this is true??

And who are you to judge who will or wont grow up a criminal???

Do you honestly think that because a kid is raised by someone that was a bad egg, he/she would do the same??? how freaking stupid is that?

My father was one bad SOB...a stret fighter, boxer...who used to drink like a fish...got up to no good, even as a young guy, did time for fighting.....and yet his 3 kids were the complete opposite....we arent like him.................so how the FECK do you manage to group these people and sit on your backside thinking you have the answers all because some idiot made a few assumptions

you have no clue about abortions....you prolly dont have children...heck you prolly still live with your folks and look at ya...acting like the pretentious one that knows all...

You didnt even write the darn article and yet you come on b*tching at me because I totally disagree and gave my reasons........you act like you wrote it.....YOU ONLY THINK IT MAKES SENSE there is a difference
How the heck would YOU know? have you seriously met all those that come from these kinna places??? I seriously doubt it....yet claim they are a minority wtf???? you don know that...so quit stating it like you do know...cuz you dont....you have no idea how many people can and HAVE all over the world, pull themselves up from slum and went on to lead good lives

Typical little male responce who knows sweet fanny all about having kids ...or even what it would be like to have an abortion......

Have you any idea how hard it is for some mothers to abort??? thinking they have no other option??? have you????? answr that....

Do you think people that grow up in rich areas all sweet and lead lovely lives???? whats it like to live under a huge rock??? back hurt much??

REALITY CHECK....Everyone and ANYONE regardless of their living environment, can turn to crime......and I mean anyone.....
Plenty of kids from good homes that have great decent parents...wind up rebelling and hanging out with bad company...they turn on their parents......this DOES happen

Rich kids can be just as nasty and cruel................being spoilt rotten has that effect....getting away with murder cuz daddy can pay people off to cover their a***.....<--ya think that dont happen??



For pete sake you sit and talk about abortion...........its not abortion...its the government that allow things to happen....like the UK....if the law clamped down on gangs and showed ZERO TOLERANCE...then that would lower crime rates....but see the UK government doesnt.....they give them a slap on the wrists and they are free to commit crime again

abortion my a***.....take a closer look...its mainly how the government deals with young criminal....when a teenage boy see's he can break into someone home and rob them, and the government says ---- juvie home....that same boy will get out and think - EASY and will continue to commit crimes.....WHY? cuz he knows he will get off lightly

I say if they are big enough to commit adult crime, they should do adult time...........and if the government ran with this....things would shape up

Abortions..feck you may as well tell every last poor person that lived in a slum...they shouldnt have kids because you feel their kids will raise the crime rate....sound like Hitler and rid them all

I too do not believe that abortion should be used as birth control but to use it to reduce crime is just too stupid. I am pro-choice I believe no one should have the right to tell you what you can & can not do with your body. Next thing you know someone will be telling you that you can’t get a tattoo. I do believe that if you know without a doubt that the baby is going to be born a vegetable then it’s ok to have an abortion because what kind of life is that person going to have? And who is going to take care of them when you’re gone? And will he/she be taken care of or pushed into a room & left alone?

Excellent responce..well said and I agree with you on.....everything ref to this topic!
some people need to wake up and smell the coffee....because a wake up call is what I got.........I used to think abortion was no big deal...I didnt care to talk about it....I never understood...then later I got my eyes opened and saw what it is like to know you are going to be a mom and be responcible for a baby human....it totally makes you see life a lot differently

crime rates would drop over here a lot faster if the goverment cracked down on gangs ect....people are forever begging the goverment to do something about it...

ZERO TOLERANCE would slow the crime rate down...once a few teenagers see that they wont get off as lightly...they wouldnt be as quick to commit crime

It's a good thing medical science had not advanced to the point where genetic defects could be determined before birth earlier in the 20th century or the world would have been deprived of Helen Keller, Stephen Hawkins, Ray Charles, and many others who excelled either because of or in spite of congenital conditions.

How do we know that the aborted fetus was not destined to be the woman who found the cure for cancer, or the man who composed the most exquisite piece of music? What assurance do we have that the aborted result of a rape was not meant to be the great mind who developed the economic model that ended poverty?

I agree but in some cases it may have been better but of course we don't know that.

I wonder what purpose Hitler had in god's plans ?


Maybe Hitler, Dahmer, many others should have been aborted ? I can think of some

Better to have never been born

Never having been born is better than hell

But I'm pretty much anti-abortion actually except in some cases

Brilliant IAMS just brilliant......you are right, how do we know? I hate it when people think they know, and the judge it on the areas people live ect....

Ya know this response just suits your avatar....it is something vicky would say...dumb..after all she swopped her kid for a west life cd!!!!

Just because a few rotten men have lived and killed...doesnt mean every last featus would be the same

What makes you think Hitler came from parents that were just evil?

So if you saw hitler as a new born baby and you didnt know what he was going to do as an adult....are you saying it was best to abort regardless??? you are no better if you do

IAMS is right you have no way of ever knowing....so for the love of hitler think about the subject more so before you post

Talk about a contradiction....make your mind up woman.......its either one or the other....cuz I want you to tell me HOW WOULD YOU KNOW??? now please explain how on earth you would know ?

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to try to counterbalance my argument by bringing this up. The thing is, Hitler, Dahmer, Stalin, AND Hawkins, Keller, and Charles were all the result not only of genetics, but also of environment and personal decisions. So bringing up the evil men of history is not really a counterbalance to the argument that we don't know what potential genius we are killing in the womb.

Yeah but...no but yeah but...no. Read the post again I SAID NOBODY KNOWS !!!

Did I say Hitler's parents are evil ? I never disagreed but it would have been nice if Hitler would have not existed, I stated we simply don't know.

No but you said Hitler should have been aborted...so I ask you.............as a new born could you honestly know how he was going to turn out??? and im asking you AGAIN how?? cuz as far as im concerned....its impossible to tell

thats why I said think about it seriously before you post


I take this subject very seriously.....the only time I am for abortion, is when the mother or the child is in danger (health wise)...apart from that...im dead against it...its murder, when you rid an un born child all because you just dont want it....I say you should have thought of that before you took the risk when having sex....or at least think of those that would give anything for a baby...that would raise it themselves...

Even though I am with you on this particular subect IAMS...I believe that people can turn bad on their OWN...they dont have to have come from bad parents....they can eaisly turn evil as they get older, by following others who are just as bad
sorry just saying lol

I wasn't offering a counter-argument. It's a thought after the fact which is useless ,what's done is done. It was god's will possibly.

All I'm saying it would have been nice had they never been born in their circumstance or possibly at all.

Had Hitler been born in New Zealand maybe he would have made it into art school there after all. Who knows ?

We never know until after the fact.

I just don't like abortion. Period.

Enough already! BM tone it down unless you want a warning added to your account.

There should be no need for a reminder as you have been a member long enough, however here it is: no flaming, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks

I will be editing this thread momentarily and I will suggest to everybody that it stay on topic unless you wish for it to be closed and warning and/or suspension to be added to your account.

Actually, BM, I was not trying to insinuate that people are bad because of genetics. I was simply trying to cover all the things people use as reasons for why someone is good or bad. I am a firm believer that each and everyone of us is who we are primarily because we CHOOSE to be who we are. Yes, genetics may have some influence, yes, environment may have some influence, but neither of those, or even both combined force someone to be a certain way. I believe we choose how much we will allow outside influences to affect us.

Well its like this............you chose to either go one way or the other....its all about making choices in your life.....

thats why I say..the only real way to crack down in crime rates...is zero tolerance

i could respond to all of this but i don't much see the point. you make assumptions about me and where i stand on this issue that I quit frankly find very offensive. the only thing i gather is that you have a big bias against abortion. <--- which i can understand. however your attempts to demonize me and the study i posted just because you don't like what it says shows a level of high immaturity. i know this can be a controversial issue but there is no need to make insults. if your going to argue it then please try and do so in mature and rational manner. but to make myself clear i will put forth my stance on some of what you asked.

1. no i don't think that there is some type of criminal gene that is passed down from parent to child resulting in that child being a criminal to. i would think that this is such an absurd notion that this would be self evident.

2. it has bean shown that the majority of the women who have abortions come from poor conditions in where they could not support a child and give them the stable family and social environment they need. i find that forcing women to have children in such conditions is just as morally wrong as abortion itself.

3. i do not support any form of eugenics. again i would think that eugenics is such an absurd notion that i need not explain my self.

4. it has also bean shown that children who grow up in poor parental and social conditions have a high tendency to turn to crime. i have seen this with my own eyes. drugs, gangs and poor education are major hurtles to such children and allot of them don't make it.

i hope that clarified my stance.

Blindness from birth isn't something to abort over, and by the time you could detect it, it would be too late anyway. Blindness might actually be a bonus, enhancing our other 4 senses. Stephen Hawking was not born with ALS, he might have had a defect in his DNA which caused it, but if a defect that could cause a disease is reason to terminate a pregancy, you could argue a case for anyone with a history of heart disease or diabetes in their family, or light skin. A woman could choose to save a defective child from a life of pain for all involved(physical, emotional and economical).

Nobody is destined to do anything, where the hell do you get that idea from? If there is a cure for cancer to be found, someone will find it. It's not a matter of a 'chosen one' being born to find it.

Due to excessive reports of rule infractions, I'm closing this thread until things can be sorted out.