The Iranian government has intervened to try to stop the screening of a film in the Netherlands about the Koran.

The Iranians say that the film, by the Dutch member of parliament Geert Wilders, is offensive.
The Iranian justice minister, Gholam Hussein Elham, wrote to his Dutch counterpart, Ernst Hirsch Ballin, calling for a ban.
Mr Hussein Elham said freedom of speech should not be used as a cover for attacking moral and religious values.

'Freedom of expression'
Mr Wilders says his film will show the Muslim holy book is an inspiration for murder. But the Iranian justice minister says it is an unnecessary attack on what Muslims regard as the holiest of things. He said the motivation behind the film was satanic and urged the Dutch government to stop its screening.
Mr Wilders has already been advised that he may have to leave the country for his own safety. But the government has so far refused to intervene, saying the issue is one of freedom of expression.

In 2004, the Dutch film director, Theo van Gogh, was killed by a Muslim extremist in an Amsterdam street after bringing out the film Submission.
It dealt with the issue of abused Muslim women and included scenes of nearly naked women with Koranic texts engraved on their bodies.

link

But we must be "tolerant" of their intolerance !!

Within their own country they can ban whatever they want, I could care less; it is their country. I dont agree with it, but if their citizens have a problem with it, they know what they have to do to resolve their concerns.

It isnt our job to go toddling off into other countries and taking them over so that some guy can watch Cinemax after dark.

If the iranian people want total freedom, they can have it, but it has to come from within.

Whatever happened to "If you dont like it, dont watch it", and "if Islam is the true religion then whatever the infidels do doesn't matter since they're going to hell.

So true.

I can't believe they want to dictate though, what we do within our own borders.

But what are you going to do?

Don't know, any ideas ?

Let them handle it themselves?

I can understand why the Iranians might be offended, because "Mr Wilders says his film will show the Muslim holy book is an inspiration for murder". But like Fluffybunny said, that doesn't give them the right to tell other countries what to do. If/when the film is released, they could just ban it from their own country. And that is all they should be able do. Let other countries decide for themselves if the film is appropriate or not.

I'm not sure of what you mean by this, but I don't want extremist muslims handling anything themselves in our countries.

Scary ,if they live by the sword ?

Yes

The bottom line is that the iranians cannot ban it anywhere but in iran. The can complain all day long about the movie but they only have control over the showings in their own country; hence the reason I said let them handle it themselves.

Too bad that's not satisfactory for many of them.

They seem to have some long arms to do their bidding/killing

Ironic how some will prove Mr. Wilder's assumptions true ?

But here's the rub.....there are now millions of muslims living within our borders...with
citizenship and all the rights that we have.....so....as we have been stupid and short-sighted
to allow (welcome, even) this colonization....are they now THEIR borders too??

I'm against Islamification of Europe....dead against it.....but...boy do we have a big problem now!

I agree. If they don't like it then they should reside where they can live the way they wish, muzzeled?

Watch out you'll be accused of bashing now. Religion has a special status. Don't criticize it.

See where that got us ?

I agree.

I hope that he continues the screening of the movie. Iran can't truely stop this screening. Can they? I don't think so.

while they can ban it from their country and that's fine ................

I'd like to see Christians world wide not call for a ban of a film made of similar intent. to show the bible as a book of murder ( bush did say he was on a crusade , bibles are being pushed on Iraqi's if they want help from Christian missionaries ......aka we'll help you if you start reading this book. tanks and bombs with things written on them like' Jesus says hi ' or the tank labeled ' the 10 commandments'. Lot's of murdering called for in the bible ....

let some film maker make a release of a wide opening a film depicting Christians as murderers , intolerant and hypocrites and see how far that goes without a complaint.

I remember the ruckus Christians world wide put up and the bans called for the movie The Last Temptation of Christ. And that was a good film !!

- since America isn't a Christian country could a similar film be banned here if it focused on the bible ? legally no ...... but .......

so this is the pot calling the kettle black.

If they are Iranians in Netherlands who disagree or find the film offensive let them do what everybody else does. Protest. It shouldn't go further than that. If they are citizens then they should write their congress/parliament. If any violence occurs then the filmmaker might be right.

Yeah same thing would happen but at least no cutting off of heads etc.

The catholic church even made a ruckus over the children's film >The Golden Compass too< wanted it boycotted , they did. They are so tolerant, aren't they ?

I have yet to see the Golden Compass !

as for beheadings ............ if the church could get away with it would they too. It wasn't so long ago they put people to death too. they evolved to not do so any longer , but I wonder if they could now would they ?

You have a long memory Lootenant. The 'church' hasn't had judicial powers in the UK (or western Europe) for many hundreds of years... if ever.

Meow Purr.

I assume some wouldn't and some would.

I'd say most wouldn't ,dunno.

Only they know if they ever gave it any thought ?

the 'church' had lot's of sway. how long had Catholic and Protestants warred in the UK ? how many killed in one name or the other done for the glory of ? when catholic and the pope wanted something 'done' ? what about under Protestants ?

I think of religious bans when it comes even to movies still not allowed uncut into your country like Caligula . Finally allowed and a friend rented it and we all watched it - and it's edited to heck. I've seen it uncut here in the states. I don't think anyone else but McDowell could have played him however. what a mad man.

If any violence comes out of it the muslims prove the flimmaker right. So the only way to get even... is to kill him... with kindness.

They have to be on their BESTEST behaviour for the next few centuries (or until he dies of old age) and during that time they either keep to themselves or win him over wit virgins.

Its a brilliant plan really, sometimes I amaze myself.

The concept of seventy virgins on a spiritual plane cracks me up. As if it's mostly about carnal pleasure .

I have to wonder if the virgins have any say in this >sounds namely like they are young female sexual slaves. And do they have enough v*agra up there so that things stay busy ?

I'm not sure if 'evolved' is the right word. Any powerful organisation does not give up that power
without a struggle. Without being able to give any historical examples....I think that power was
gradually wrestled away from 'the church'....when a parallel power-base was formed....it's tool
(weapon?) being industrialization and big money. A rival patriarchy, if you like.
If the church had a lot more power than they do now...maybe more fanatical types would rise to
the top of the hierarchy...and violence....disguised as religious fervour...would re-emerge....ie
burnings, hangings and be-headings.

In your posts, Lt_Ripley...you go to pains to remind us that when push comes to shove we are no
'better' than Islamists....that all human groups are more or less as prone to a rapid and embarassing decent
into naked, self-seeking violence and opression...given the right circumstances.

I find it facinating that the two most openly gay members of this forum, at the moment...are the two people
who pop up all the time to DEFEND muslims and Islam....the defence being that 'we' are just as 'bad'...or at
least...when it comes to 'ordinary people'.....no better.
This is where it gets tricky...because....although this may be so.....the church...has been out-organised
by secular groups....who now hold the balance of power.
I think why Westerners are worried....and scared of the rise of Islam....is because the political/religious rise of
power that is churning within Islam....is totally dependent on a religious fervour....than we in the West have
managed over a period of time to get under control. An integral part of this has been the rising equality of
women. And an acceptance/understanding of homosexuality.
It's a scarey old business....religious fervour....while all humans might be the same....more or less....the
church has lost it's all encompassing power.....but extreme Islam is 'on the rise' and until it becomes diluted
by secularism it remains a live danger.
This, in my opinion, is why the banning of films and books and cartoons must not be allowed...by any religious
organisation.
Remember 'Jerry Springer' the Opera.....religious groups tried to get that banned....I'm so glad they didn't
succeed.....I thought it was brilliant and great fun!

But no-one's life was threatened or seriously put at risk by the televising of 'Jerry Springer' the Opera...and
that's the difference with where Christianity is now....and where Islam is now.

Ironic indeed. Fundamentalist Islam is one of the chief concerns of the modern era. I remember watching the South Park "Family Guy" series of episodes and at the end basically instead of bombing the crap out of America for airing a Family Guy episode that had the Prophet Muhammad in it they wrote their own TV show making fun of Americans and American culture. I think that the Iranians could actually take a leaf out of the South Park book (in as much as I think South Park, while hilarious, is a wholly crass show) and fight fire with fire, instead of IEDs and suicide bombings. Instead of killing people for freedom of expression they should use their own freedom of expression to show their distaste for media that they perceive as anti-Islamic. I think that countries like Iran would have many more sympathizers if they did that instead of killing those that disagree with them.
There was a time when Islam was one of the leading scientific and philosophical areas of thought in the entire world. What happened?

Im sooooooooo with you there!!!
And they are allowed to practice their religion here in europe...BUT....heres the fun part...WE cant practice our religion in their country!!!!! isnt that funny and ironic?!?

Then they got stuck and consumed with hatred. But why ?

Below is a good article/observation of a man (a muslim activist )mourning a time when Islam was better/or good.

http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/print/2611/

yes fascinating. ..... that in America not one gay person has been killed by a Muslim but rather Christians . now don't give me the cop out answer they weren't really Christians. if it weren't against the law to kill gays here Christians would be having a field day since the majority of the country is Christians. that wouldn't be the bulk of them doing that , but the fact that there are those that would.

I can defend Muslims and Islam because the majority of people who are happen to be just as ordinary and moderate in their beliefs as any other religion.

I can defend because I know what it's like to have morons judge on the actions of a few or a back wards government like the one we have now.

I can defend having lived in an area of the country concentrated with the highest percentage of Muslims and felt safe and liked my neighbors . nice people who happen to be Muslim. they kept their yards and homes up and how I lived my life was my business , they never preached to me.

While I can't defend a governments actions I can hope the religion changes just as Christianity has/is .

and I don't see Muslims passing out Korans the what Christians pass out bibles to convert people.



I laugh at what is in bold. sure we have it better. but women still make less then men for the same job ......... and I still don't see all my equal rights. you'll only allow me some of them. depending which state I'm in too.

you keep wanting to make middle eastern countries western ones. to think as we do. you can't. Extreame Islam is on the rise because of foriegn policy from the west !!! because we think we own it all and can do as we please !! until you understand thier culture , society and stop with the screwed up foriegn policy and actually read at how we had a hand in screwing all this up since Britian and France had thier hands in that pie long ago .......... your comments are pretty lax on history ( albeit I'm no scholar on it ) but this just didn't happen overnight nor without our hands in it.

I'm not for banning anything. yet there are still books and films not allowed or just lately allowed in Britian. there are books being banned and have been banned from our own libraries.

I can't even type out the term g-a-y/Le-sbi-an sex on these boards without it being blocked !!!! yet straight sex is fine. go figure. and why ? the undercurrent is religious belief. held so close and for so long it isn't realised.

it's like gay marriage. If there was true equality I should be allowed to go to city hall and marry. marriage is actually a religious ceremony term. so if it's wording that's the problem then all 'marriages ' by city hall should be called civil unions for all people. Keep religion and government seperate. since I can go to churches that will 'marry' me .

I don't wish to see a whole group of people bashed by an ignorant few - from any religion or view.


*spam filter* - see ? that was g-a-y sex

Yes, yet again another example of the intolerant demanding tolerance. This is what I was trying to point out in the tolerance thread.
A double standard really.

I guess I'm being intolerant of other's intolerance ? Back on subject to more extremist intolerance........................which is difficult to tolerate.

Do you have no affinity with gays who were unfortunate to have been born in Islam, do you not feel outrage when gays are executed for nothing more than there sexuality?

of course I do. are you trying to insert that the lack of equal treatment of gays in those countries as a reason for hate and possible war ??? lmao !!!! when the US can't even give it here ??? and your appalled ??

I also know that in the last decade more and more gays are coming out in the middle east. On line groups , meeting secretly. .......... closeted like we did here in the 50's. the first March in Jerusalm was just in 2002. a big deal and still is. Even some cities here in the US won't allow one .

they have been killing gay people for ages .......... change isn't going to come over night , but it is coming . and not just there but here in the US as well. The issues raised now aren't issues that would have been raised 20 years ago here .. like adoption and marriage.

So take those deaths as martyrs . The way those queens did at Stonewall in NYC . tired of being harassed , beat up ect ......... and decided to fight back. Things will change , it's inevitable both here and there and that is what has the feverently religious are afraid of. losing power makes one afraid. change is a scary thing,

Islam isn't going to change, it's actually going backward, i.e. women in Iran used to wear mini skirts, even in the west they're regressing 20 years ago in the UK you never saw muslims with their face covered or men in medieval clothes.

I hope the Dutch put it out in the States with sub titles. I would love to see it. Like Fluffy says the Iranians can do what they want in their country, but they can force another country to live by their rules. When I get to see the film I'll see if I agree with it or not, in the mean time, I hold judgment. It will be interesting to see what happens when the film is screened. It is funny to see how different religions react to films about their religion. Christian and Muslim get all incensed about it and we Pagan take an insulting movie like the Wickerman and embrace it and put it in our collection making it a cult classic. I am talking about the original Wickerman, the remake with Cage s**ked. If you try to ban a film you will end up making everyone want to see it.

Islam isn't going to change ?? lol. well it had moved forward in it's treatment of women while under Saddam ( yes he was evil , yadda yadda yadda ) and since bush invaded and has basically let it become another Iraq now that treatment is moving backwards. ............. thank bush ?

thank bush and western policy that had it's hand in helping this backward movement by thinking it could just come into a place and do as it pleases.

Muslims were moving forward at it's own pace ............ but western policy had to push... and it's like kids. whenever you tell a teen they have to do something the more they are going to fight you on it. think of it that way.

the more western you want them is the more muslim they will hold onto WHICH IS THIER IDENTITY !!!! it's thier customs ! why should what they wear bother you ?

it's a religious matter. between families. plenty of muslims , most actually , don't wear head gear. Some do . Big deal. My grandmothers nurse who wasn't muslim by birth but marriage has the choice of wearing her scarf .. so she covers her head out of respect for her faith but doesn't veil her face. She's fine with it why shouldn't I be ?

and as for mini skirts = I don't see alot of women wearing those now. pretty skanky. just like we don't have the big hair of the 80's thank God.

Give it time.

ps - quit looking for a reason to hate. if the women wanted too they could rise up. freedom is an inside job. Be angry ... fine . but then what do you do about it ? live by the sword die by the sword. killing has never solved anything except to cause more killing. It's been the peaceful marches and movements that have changed the world.

Not sure if someone touched on this but...

Whatever hate filled assumptions are in the film (if ANY), whatever false accusing claims are made...

They are not the ones giving Islam a bad name, its the radical muslims fighting against it.

name='Lt_Ripley' date='Feb 18 2008, 11:01 PM' post='2157925']



Not unless it'sprised from the grasp of warlords




Your completely wrong, Islam saw some freedom in the 60-70s but started to regress to it's medieval roots.




I don't know if it's you don't understand what i'm saying or you have no counter argument so you posted this trivia.
I used the mini skirt to show how free women had become, and muslims of 10-20 years ago who were happy to practice Islam in western clothes now cover themselves from head to foot, i don't care what they wear but it's a sign of Islam's regression



I hate Muslims no more than you hate christians




This is the biggest load of BS, do you really believe that.




So why aren't you marching for the gay's being executed in Islam?

I hope he doesnt get assasinated like Theo Van Gogh.
What a wild week that was when Theo got hit...

Hmmm very interesting. What i find weird is, everytime there is something like this coming out from the media against Islam, its always Iran who speaks up, Why not Saudi, Iraq, Pakistan, Indonesia etc. i tell you why, its because Iran is mainly Shiite muslims, which is classed as outside the fold of Islam. Most muslims dont consider them muslims, they have similar practises as a front, but have more in common with Isreal and judaism, but thats whole different topic.

What i wanted to say, was very eloquently mentioned by Lt Ripley. As soon as she brought some justice to the debate, regardless of what her personal opinions maybe about Islam or muslims, she came to the debate with an objective and justful angle, I like that. Not soon after this, many of you could not understand why she of all people is doing this, defending Islam, most of you played on emotional cards, homosexuality, tried to tell her, "hold on your gay, and not liked in Islam" I think her reply to all that was sufficient, but what it showed me is this, and i have said it all along, that most people i know on UM have a bias , prejudiced view of Islam, based on what they know from friends and media, not through any real life experience or real research, and those reactions proved it. People were shocked by Ripley, then tried to play on her emotions and her suxuality to change her view, you people should be ashamed of yourselves, and do some real research.

As for the movie goes, there has been a agenda against Islam for centuries, this is just a continuation of it. Infact, Sunni muslim countries have made very little fuss as i know it, iran usually plays the part in these incidents to bring those movies more fame than required, it did the same with Rushdie. You see proper muslims wont do protests or such things, coz they know its futile and wont work, some zealot muslims may even kill the producers, though i dont agree with this. What most muslims want is an open and fair chance to hit back, so if this guy makes his movie, in which he alleges the Quran inspires people to murder, to some ignorant muslims it may, just like the bible can, or the vedas can, any other religious scripture can. The point is idiots like iran, make sure this director will not sit with Leading islamic scholars who can debate his view and clear his misconception, due to fear of his life, because of Irans ranting. Muslims living in the West are fully aware of western media and its practises, it forgives no religion and will aim at all religions. In reality, this guy believe the quran inspires to murder, i could easily say the movie will provoke a reaction in muslim countries where the european forces are based and American forces, thus jeapordising their situation and security, increasing the threat levels to them, is that good tactics or bad tactics. A bit like the cartoons of muhammed, at a time, when muslims countries are invaded and people killed daily, is it appropriate for people to put more oil on the fire, people like this should be arrested for provoking terrorism, but i guess that wont happen.

You see in the west there is this misconception of terrorism, the goverments play on the peoples fears and take more liberties away dailly and make foreign policy decision which would normally be rejected by the mass population of those countries, for example, in the UK, everyone was against Iraq war, but they goverment dont care about protests etc, they just care about money, and bringing secularims in the guise of democracy to countries which are not used to it or compatible with it, is that not forcing your way on to others, and as a result you now have terrorists, some freedom fighters some mental cases, but nevertheless the result of foreign policy and forced secularism. Its colonialism, with a hint of imperailism.

You see freedom of speech is not what people make it out to be, when people deliberatley portray something as the truth, when its clearly false, then they usually try and hide under freedom of speech. I personally will watch the movie, just so i know where he has got it wrong. But will a muslim ever get a chance to set him straight if he has got things wrong, I doubt it very much. As Ripley said, i think most religious groups would react similar way as iran did, if their holiest of holys was ridiculed in such a manner. For example, does freedom of speech allow remarks like those made by a historian who's name i cant remember, who said that 6 million jews did not die at the hands of Hitler, this guy was arrested etc. Yet he had the freedom of speech to say what he wants, i think you catch my drift on this.

It is your prerogative to defend Islam. But it is your own country/culture/laws that will defend you
and your lifestyle. Not Islam.
America might not be as progressive as you would wish....but surely it's moving in the right direction?




On this we can agree.




Excuse me? How am I only allowing you SOME equal rights?...I don't even live in America!

I believe I was addressing someone who lives in the States ?


as for the rest of the BS nipping at my heels like some little hateful rabid dog about my defense of Islam and Muslims ...........

most Muslims are not terrorists !!!!!!!!!! Just like most Christians are not like Rev. Phelps !!!!!!

and this paranoid fear of the world being turned Islamic is just that = paranioid. Yet Christians pass out bibles like candy. basically if you want Aid via christians there is a coversion attached to it.

and no one can change what a country does save the people that live there !!!!!! that is how we got our freedom !!! it's an inside job.

to say Muslims will never advance is ignorant. to say it's religion eventually won't advance is ignorant as well. All religions either advance or die out.


I can't stand the KKK or Aryan nation . should I hate all whites ?( yes I'm white) I can't stand Phelps ( although he's a huge push for gay rights ) should that mean all Christians should be hated ? the bulk of Christians voted to keep my equal rights from me ??? how about now ???

Now put fearful ignorant hate for a culture based on fringe out of the way. start to look at facts. Maybe some here can't and that's sad.

ps -

quick story .

where I grew up is heavily Catholic/Christian. tons of churchs. seems like one on every block. bells ringing all over the place. the closest I've lived to one is accross the street and growing up lived 2 blocks away. you get used to the bells at 6 am.

well the Islamic in the community wanted to build a mosque. (after 911) some complained.

here's the story

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3358067/detail.html

the fact is the bells from St. Lads accross the street and the traffic noise was louder !!! That didn't stop picketing Christians. one ignorant man even went so far as to say ""We have no idea what's being said or sung or anything. We have no idea" what they left out of the story was his point of ' it could be terrorism stuff'. yeah, right , over a speaker to the public where it could be translated. I guess you could put a message into the number of church bells that ring too.

The thing is....when you or anyone else discusses or disagrees with what the KKK or Aryan Nation
is up to...I don't think you (or anyone else) is automatically accused of 'hating' all white people.
Whereas...when anyone discusses or disagrees with what militant or fundamentalist Islamists
are up to (in Western countries)...they are often automatically accused of 'hatred' of all muslims.

"Partly true, and I know here in America, most people regret the war on Iraq, and most of those people didn't want to go in the first place. I didn't. But, remember, the word terrorism was hardly used in this country until 9/11 and that WAS a terrorist act. An awful one, that could not have gone overlooked, and Bush used that as his reason for taking over a country that didn't want our help in the first place. Now not only are the Iraqis dying because of the already present terrorism, but now they are dying more frequently, at the hands of radicals, trying to blow up American soldiers, or to try and martyr themselves. There were terrorists long long before there was ever a war, though, and 'terrorism' is not a direct result of just foreign policy."

I dont agree entirely with what you say here, especially near the end. Terrorism is hardly a threat to the US, more poeple die of alcohol and Animal running across the road and causing accidents than terrorist. I agree there are some radical elements in all societies, and in islam too, but to paint the whole followers with same brush is unjust and i know you agree to that. 9-11 was a tragedy and a shock, it still has some unanwsered question in my opinion, but even if we take the state view, does it take the bombing of the poorest nation on the planet to get one man, you have a murder who runs in to a block of flats, to get him do you bring down the whole block. The actions of the US, further fueled terrosim, remember, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Then you get this link to Iraq, when Saddam and Bin laden are two opposite idealogies etc, and there was no evidence of any connection, The US bombs Iraq, Im glad Saddam is dead, but since the invasion, the poeple are under more suffering than under Saddam, there is a vacum and terrorist know its fertile grounds, when you lose all, poeple become lost and prepared to lose what most precious, life itself.

I think America has always shown double standards in the middle east and when dealing with muslim countries.

As for when i said arrest the guy for provoking terrorism, i meant it, If a man can get arrested, for holding a banner saying kill the man who made the cartoons or the one who makes the movie, they too have freedom of speech do they not, but they are arrested for incitment to hatered, what the difference between them and the cartoonist or the directors who incite actions of terrorism by portraying a false view often of islam and its followers. Which no doubt causes further flame in todays climate, risking further the security of our armed forces and people. Its illoogical to give them reasons.

have you read tha last few pages ? other posts ?