After participating in several threads I'm amazed at the diversity of religions and beliefs represented here .So I thought we might have a go at defining "Religion", as I'm sure that there is great diversity of opinion and belief on this topic.
Does religion have to do with God, is it all about man, or is it only about the animals and nature?
So express your opinions, provide your proof, argue your position, polish your debating skills, this one should be very informative and great fun!
All done in love and respect of course...

The search and discovery of who we truly are is how I would define religion.

However saying this I have pointed out before that the word 'Religion' requires a dictionary on its own because of the literal vastness and interpretation of what religion is. There is about as many religions (in my view) as there are people.

Religion is, by definition, interpretation; and by definition, all interpretations are valid. However, some interpretations are more reasonable than others. ~ Reza Aslan

Yet who is to judge what is reasonable or what is a more reasonable interpretation of religion?

My view is conscience.

I tend to agree with Brave's point above. Religion's interpretation is vast.

I believe that religion initially evolved as a coping mechanism, because the reality of death created fear and uncertainty. Our species is the only one that can hold the thought in our minds: "I will die." Ours is the only one that needs a way to cope with it, and its long-term effects are probably among the most important factors that shaped our cultures.

IMO, cultures initially created religion as an attempt to explain death, turning it into a story written by living cultures, for living people. Near-Death studies have found that experiences very much like traditional afterlife stories can actually be found in near-death accounts, and those accounts have been found to be based on culture.

As children, we may run to our mommies and daddies for comfort and security. As adults, some need to run to god(s). The fact of death and the unknown can be very frightening, so ideas and beliefs turned into a natural salve, thus creating chemical responses in the brain. This was followed by a sense of well-being and euphoria.

Beliefs like the ones that religion uses to assure people that death, somehow, does not really exist...can seem comforting. Any idea will do so long as it makes it possible to face death without believing that "this isn't it".

Throughout the history of mankind, a person who looked at a dead body, remembered the experience, thought about it, personalized the whole thing, and concluded that the same thing is going to happen to them...more than likely led them to desire the need for a belief in the afterlife. It helped them overcome death anxiety. Eventually, more ideas and beliefs (religion) evolved within individual cultures in hopes of civilizing tribes, etc.

I see spirituality and religion to be two separate things. Spirituality to me is more about personal growth.

Religion is often a tool used to achieve personal hope. In the wrong hands, it can become a tool for control, and bring about suffering and death, as history has shown.

JMO

~V

edited:typos

Good topic. My pov is that a faith is not a religion eg Christianity is not in itself a religion. An individual can hold beliefs or spiritual convictions in a wide variety of forms. A religion is an organised and codified version. (either a lot of people get together and agree on the basic similarities of their faith, or one person /group imposes their version on others.)

A religion, as opposed to a belief or faith, will be identified by a number of things. First it will have a codified set of beliefs. Second it will have some form of "priest class' whose job it is to preserve and spread that message. Third, it will likely develop over time, a set of ceremonies/ liturgies or other formal methods of worship/ which both identify its individuality and also set it apart from other religions.

This, I know, goes against orthodox views/ which claim christianity is one religion, judaism another etc. However, in reality, christianity has diverged into so many different groups that these no longer represent the same religion. They often have completely different beliefs and ceremonies, and at heart have more striking differnces in their core beliefs, than they do similarities.

So i do not see myself as having, or belonging to, a religion. I have a personal knowledge of, and relationship with god. I find the bible to contain many universal truths for good living and spiritual development. But so do many other religious texts. I dont go to one particular church, but my beliefs do fall closer to some religious groups/churches than to others.

My actions in life are predicated on my understanding of what god wants/expects of me. That understanding is gained from many places. An historical perspective on humanity. My relationship with god. What my parents and society taught me were impt personal values and precepts, Religious writings which illustrate how past societies have organised themselves to maximise the strength of those societies and thus the protection afforded to individuals within them. The actions god has taken to influence my own life and direction on earth.'

There are others, but these influences illustrate the diversity of the forces which contribute to my belief system, of which god and a spiritual perspective is just one component, albeit an important one, and one integrated into the totality of my being.

Do you have to express faith in something or someone in order to practice religion?

This struck me as hilarious. I would guess that the majority of people who practice religion today do not actually have a faith in, or spiritual connection to, that religion, particularly in western countries.

Religion as marx put it ,has become an opiate, rather than a living faith which lifts and enhances ones whole life experience.

Even so, religion may offer many benefits, such as social interaction and a sense of community / belonging; along with a sense of tradition and ceremony which provide balance to people, and often satisfy inbuilt needs for predictability and safety through ritual.

This is why religions, as cultural institutions rather than living faiths, have such cultural/historical inertia, and are a lot harder to dispose of than most people expect.

So, even in the 21st century, when few have the spiritual faith and connection which drove early believers, christianity, for example, endures; albeit in many different forms, because it still offers a range of tangible benefits to a cross section of society.

So my belief is that indeed it is not necessary to actually believe/have faith in anything to practice a religion

hi, by the way im spirit, newbee.

i totally agree with your reply, spirituality is different to religion and i have never seen anyone put the point across better!

I believe that religions are dictatory and all the believers are the sheep that follow! and i totally diagree with it, although been to may churches in my time and became a fully pledged member of a few, and i did not find what i was looking for,!

I totally with 100% of my mind, body and soul, believe in god, although i dont think he is a dictator, i believe he makes us all walk in others shoes from time to time to teach us lessons, to totally grow our souls, which involves spirituality, not fear of the future but to cope with today, tomorrow and be as good human beings as we can.

And the thing is because i am spiritual, in touch with my feeling and thoughts and have awareness of other influence (spiritual)... i believe that if i go to the church and follow what they tell me to and live the way they tell me too, then i would be a total copout!!!

there have been times in my life so sh**ty, so low, so not worth being, that i could of easily ran into the arms of the church for guidance, so i would not anymore have to make descisions that sometimes are right and sometimes wrong and i have to live with the consequences, this is my life's challenge, descision making, finding my path!!!

Just think if you were just living like a member of a church told you to, then when you died and finally faced god, and he said why did you do nothing with your life, but preach my name, and go to church building singing and talking and having friends from the same church ect ect.... then it would just be a copout to say, well that vicar told me too...

get out in the world, people will see god in their own time, there is no need to make them see, they will see with their own soul, in time!
but real true spiritualism is living and making your own mistakes, and be responsible for your own mistakes when you face god, by having that true inner belief of what you are doing is right,,, for you!!!!!!!

then when you face god and he say's why did you do that? at least you will have a reply for him!

p.s no offence to anyone else's beliefs, we all have them as individuals in our own right!

i would also just like to quote my favorite saying from life experience is:

never say never

I found this a while back you all seem to agree that religion & spirituality are two very different ideas so what do you all think of this?

I'm not sure who wrote this but it's like they are putting sprituality up again the judeo-christian faith, which I can agree with to a point because thiers (according to this) is what some christians seems to believe.


SPIRITUALITY SAYS THAT GOD IS WITHIN US AND THAT WE DON'T NEED ANYONE ELSE TO MAKE THAT DIVINE CONNECTION FOR US.

RELIGION SAYS THAT WE ARE SEPARATED FROM GOD AND THAT WE NEED "THEM" TO MAKE THAT DIVINE CONNECTION.


SPIRITUALITY SAYS THAT WE ARE FREE TO MAKE CHOICES ON OUR OWN AND THAT WE MUST TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR ACTIONS

RELIGION SAYS WE MUST MAKE THEIR CHOICES AND ACT THEIR WAY

THE THEME OF SPIRITUALITY IS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE

THE THEME OF RELIGION IS FEAR AND GUILT

SPIRITUALITY DOES NOT REQUIRE US TO MAKE DONATIONS

RELIGION HAS BECOME BIG BUSINESS

SPIRITUALITY SAYS THERE IS NO HELL, NO JUDGMENT, NO ANGRY GOD... THAT WE ARE LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY


RELIGION SAYS THERE IS A HELL, GOD GETS ANGRY AND JUDGES US... THEREFORE, WE ARE NOT LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE OUR OWN PATH TO GOD


RELIGION COMMANDS US TO DO IT THEIR WAY

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE GO TO GOD TO LIGHTEN OUR BURDEN


RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEAR THEIR GOD

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE SHOULD NOT BE ASHAMED OF OUR SEXUALITY... THAT IT SHOULD BE A SACRED CELEBRATION OF LOVE


RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEEL ASHAMED, GUILTY AND DIRTY ABOUT OUR SEXUALITY

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO HONOR AND RESPECT MOTHER EARTH


RELIGION HAS TOLD US TO "BE THOU FRUITFUL, MULTIPLY AND SUBDUE THE EARTH" I REPEAT... "SUBDUE THE EARTH"

SPIRITUALITY REMINDS US THAT WE ARE ONE WITH GOD AND ONE WITH EACH OTHER


RELIGION TEACHES DISUNITY AND SEPARATION WHICH IS THE OPPOSITE OF GOD

SPIRITUALITY SAYS GOD IS WITHIN


RELIGION SAYS HE IS IN HEAVEN AND THAT "THEY" ARE THE ONLY INTERMEDIARIES FOR US

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE BORN IN INNOCENCE AND PURITY


RELIGION SAYS WE ARE BORN WITH SIN

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES THAT WE ARE ON A LONG SPIRITUAL ADVENTURE AND JOURNEY WHICH WILL ULTIMATELY END BY REUNITING WITH OUR SOURCE


RELIGION SAYS WE'VE GOT ONE LIFE TO GET IT ALL RIGHT AND THERE IS NOTHING BUT HEAVEN OR HELL AFTER THAT

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE FREE TO EXPRESS


RELIGION GAVE US THE DREADED INQUISITION

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR ALL


RELIGION GAVE US THE CRUSADES IN WHICH MANY WERE KILLED AND SLAUGHTERED IN THE NAME OF GOD

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES THAT WE SHOULD LOVE ONE ANOTHER UNCONDITIONALLY AND ALWAYS HONOR THE RIGHTS AND CHOICES OF OTHERS


RELIGION TREATED NATIVE AMERICANS, THE MAYANS AND OTHER INDIGENOUS CULTURES AS SAVAGE PRIMITIVES WHO "MUST BE SAVED"

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES PEACE AND HARMONY


RELIGION HAS CAUSED MORE WARS AND MORE KILLING THAN ANY OTHER REASON

SPIRITUALITY SAYS RESPECT ALL LIVING THINGS


I NEVER ONCE HEARD ANY RELIGION SAY STOP SLAUGHTERING MILLIONS OF TREES EVERY YEAR FOR CHRIST'S BIRTHDAY

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO HAVE FAITH IN OURSELVES


RELIGION TEACHES US TO HAVE FAITH IN THEM

SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS... THAT WE CAN FIND THEM BY "GOING WITHIN"


RELIGION TEACHES US THAT IT HAS ALL THE ANSWERS AND ONLY ITS ANSWERS ARE THE RIGHT ONES

SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO SEARCH FOR THE UNIVERSAL TRUTHS AND OUR HEARTS WILL TELL US WHEN WE HAVE FOUND THEM


RELIGION TEACHES WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT THEIR VERSION OF THE TRUTH

Well said , Brave ! Very nice ..and true .

religion is those who are afraid of hell . spirituality is for those who've already been there.

so the old saying goes.

all religion is a man made construct. when 2 or more get togeather and put rules and ritual to a concept they can not fully express or understand.

Religion is a philosophy on the proper moral course one should take in life with some statement concerning general existence of the self currently, prior to and/or following said life as impetus for said course. This statement concerning general existence typically includes an external entity that one is either a part of or less than (e.g. Buddhists have the universe which we are a part of, theists have some form of God.)

I believe you have to have faith in the religion you are practicing, otherwise, I don't see why one would practice it. If you are asking, do you have to have faith or belief in a deity to practice religion...I would say no.




I agree, and studies have shown this to be quite true, although I wouldn't limit it to just the practice of "religion", per se.




Hi spirit, so glad you joined us here at UM, and welcome! BTW, I appreciate your kind comment.



How true that is.




Thanks for posting that Norwood...very interesting to see the comparisons, although I tend to believe that some religions do incorporate spiritual beliefs in their doctrine.

Some people say that religion is developed from of superstition, explanation and interaction with "the universe. So which came first, religion or the species? Did religion have something to do with creating our species, or did our species create religion as the result of a specific need or desire?
Does anyone here think that a single person's philosophy can be considered a religion? Or does it take more than one person to form a religion?

It is his religion. A group is only required for governmental recognition.

I can't agree with that as a Pagan I get no recognition that is to say I don't get things like tax breaks Etc.

I think the definitions/differences you supplied are a bit too black and white and also too positive on the spirituality side and too negative on the religion side.

They are not true for all forms of either religion of spirituality.

They have a sort of "new age" feel to them, where do your own thing is good, and organised anything is bad. In my personal experience spirituality can encompass a tough but fair god, who does have rules and expectations, so you cant just do your own thing or follow your instincts. The rules are there for personal guidance and the good governance of society. However these come from a personal inner form of belief rather than a set of laws imposed by religious belief or practice.

my spirituality encompasses guardianship of the earth because we are the only ones capable of doing so and thus have a moral duty to do so. Again it is not a sort of new age "worship'. of gaea or mother eart. generally, however the points are valid particularly when confined to some of the larger and more traditional forms of christian religions.

They might not all apply, however, to a gaean, or druidic religion, or even hindus or buddhists. Im not familiar enough with those religions to make and accurate comment.

I can only speak from personal experience. God exists as a real independent entity. Therefore whatever came in between, we did not create him as a psychological crutch, or more generously, as a philosophical means of interpreting/understanding the world around us. I always had that view myself until I encountered god and his angels.

Now I know differently and have to interpret the history of contact differently. I would say that god existed well before humans evolved into sentient beings, and that he had a part, if not in creating them, (which he is quite physically capable of doing) then at least of physically intervening in their growth and development, particularly when , given their level of development they were more amenable /susceptible to=his influence.

The evidence of my own life is that god still takes an interest in, and directly intervenes in the lives of individual humans. Thus, I may have a fairly unique perspective. I still don't consider my belief system a religion, however, as it does not fit the parameters I outlined earlier for a religion.

I can now clearly see how people from earlier times and cultures who had a similar series of contacts with the entity I met, would have described and attempted to explain it in terms just like those which appear in the bible and other religious texts.

I am thus more predisposed than most to accept that such"stories' are actual historical records of contact, with varying levels of understanding and enlightenment added on depending on the nature and spiritual development of the person contacted by god.

It is now impossible for me to accept that humans created god. (unless by the sheer gestalt of human belief they can construct a real and powerful entity.)

So if he is not a psychological prop, is he indeed the entity which our cultural history makes him out to be, or is he something else entirely. That is the question I need answering.

wouldn't jesus have been considered "new age " ? Love God and Love your neighbor as you love yourself. that's pretty much do your own thing as long as you don't hurt anyone else. pretty new age to me.

These are the ones I agree with.

RELIGION HAS BECOME BIG BUSINESS

RELIGION SAYS THERE IS A HELL, GOD GETS ANGRY AND JUDGES US... THEREFORE, WE ARE NOT LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY

RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEAR THEIR GOD

RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEEL ASHAMED, GUILTY AND DIRTY ABOUT OUR SEXUALITY

RELIGION SAYS WE ARE BORN WITH SIN

RELIGION SAYS WE'VE GOT ONE LIFE TO GET IT ALL RIGHT AND THERE IS NOTHING BUT HEAVEN OR HELL AFTER THAT

RELIGION GAVE US THE CRUSADES IN WHICH MANY WERE KILLED AND SLAUGHTERED IN THE NAME OF GOD

RELIGION HAS CAUSED MORE WARS AND MORE KILLING THAN ANY OTHER REASON

RELIGION TEACHES US THAT IT HAS ALL THE ANSWERS AND ONLY ITS ANSWERS ARE THE RIGHT ONES.

RELIGION TEACHES WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT THEIR VERSION OF THE TRUTH

WOW! Um ok I agree with most of it however there are acceptations to them not all Christians believe in these ideas. Again these seem to be talking about Christianity or so it seems.

As far as spirituality goes these are the one I do not agree with.


SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE GO TO GOD TO LIGHTEN OUR BURDEN

SPIRITUALITY SAYS GOD IS WITHIN

Even my faith is called a religion but some but there are those who would disagree with that although I seen it as more spritual then anything else.

I define religion as anything which "binds" two or more people together in a common regard.

I say this because I see the same fervor amongst fans/lovers of books,music,cars,movies,art,nature...etc.,as I see amongst those who belong to specific faiths.

In one context you are quite correct. As one who grew up in the age of aquarius etc, I was applying a more specific new age context, where drugs sex rock and roll were all legitimate likestyles, "do you own thing" was a real philosophy of life, and when people actually believed in "free' love

That sort of "new age" shows little regard for natural consequences, and checks and balances on human activity. People actually believed that in a society, individual members could do what they liked, without bringing harmful consequences down on others', through their actions. People who truly love their neighbours dont cause them damage through incidental áctions or friendly fire either'. You dont have to set out to harm another, you can do it through indifference or thoughtlessness. The harm is just as great, and your culpability no less real.

and so say all of us, excellent!

I'm not sure if I can call that new age but then again I don't see how people call things like Witchcraft new age. There were people before Christianity came along that watched out for each other in order to survive. One can not call Buddhism new age it's older then Christianity is. For people who had have to live off the land they knew that they had to take care of the land & give back to it. More common sense then anything else. An African proverb says, “It takes a village to raise a child
Let me ask everyone this question: What about love? Do you have to love someone or something for it to be called religion? Can a religion be founded on hating something or someone? Could a man like David Koresh who got people to worship him could his ideas be called a religion? Can a cult be religion?

New Age is a collection of thought systems, one of them being Pantheism.

"Pantheism (a belief that all is God) prevailed in numerous ancient cultures. The belief that the universe itself was divine was typified in the Animism beliefs of the African and American Indian cultures, the later Egyptian religion under the Pharaoh's, and Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism in the cultures of the Far East. Pantheistic beliefs are also finding resurgence among various New Age movements. Source

New Age is a compilation of metaphysical, Eastern-influenced thought systems. These thought systems unite theology, nature, and philosophy. This movement comprises countless "theologies" that often center on religious tolerance and moral diversity.

New Age philosophy is complicated to define because there is no centralized hierarchy, doctrine, or membership. At its foundation, the New Age movement is a religious system with two main doctrines: Evolutionary Godhood and Global Unity. Source

Yes, and Buddhism was the national religion of Japan until the atomic bombs. Now, Buddhism has the same character, but a new voice. Buddhism was a cult centered around Buddha. It is still centered around Buddha, but the naked ladies and the cornicopiea are gone. David Koresh lead a cult of naked ladies and cornicopeia; and he was married to every one of them. There was a cult following with the Mormons and their leader because he was promoting multiple marriages and forced marriages. There is always going to be labeling going on with groups and their following. The three mono-theistic religions Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all centered in Jerusalem and there is walls separating the three with guns and tanks and jets on all sides.

After reading Norwoods posts, I am convinced now that I have much more respect for spirituality.

Interesting website but being that it’s a Christian site so it tends to be biased also it’s stating that Christianity is older then Pantheistic beliefs which is not true.

Doesn't that sound familiar? I believe it was Billary Rodham Clinton that said that in the context of 'No child left behind.' That just shows the lack of originality.

I believe religion to be defined by the amount of people involved. The three celebrated mono-theistic religions in Jerusalem are now in a hard competition to enlist all they can.

And it appears that Judaism is just sitting back and watching the other two fight it out.

My apologies if I posted information that "might" be biased... LOL

You're not biased in anyway yourself, right?!?

Me neither...

Seriously though... I don't have a problem with it being a Christian site as long as the information is accurate. I couldn't find where they stated that Christianity was older than Pantheism. Maybe you could point that out to me. It may have been right in front of me, but I missed it.

Looking further into the subject, I didn't realize there were actually 3 varieties of Pantheism:

This article distinguishes between three divergent groups of pantheists:

Classical pantheism, which is expressed in the immanent God of Kabalistic Judaism, Advaita Vedanta Sanatana Dharma, and Monism, generally viewing God in either a personal or cosmic manner.

Biblical pantheism, which is expressed in the writings of the Bible with the understanding of personification linguistics as a cultural communication idiom in Hebrew language. [Isa 55:12] [Acts 17:28]

Naturalistic pantheism, based on the relatively recent views of Baruch Spinoza (who may have been influenced by Biblical pantheism) and John Toland (who coined the term "pantheism"), as well as contemporary influences.

The vast majority of persons who can be identified as "pantheistic" are of the classical variety (such as Hindus, Sufis, Unitarians, Etc.), while most persons who self-identify as "pantheist" alone (rather than as members of another religion) are of the naturalistic variety. The division between the three strains of pantheism are not entirely clear in all situations, and remains a source of some controversy in pantheist circles.

Classical pantheists generally accept the religious doctrine that there is a spiritual basis to all reality, while naturalistic pantheists generally do not and thus see the world in somewhat more naturalistic terms. Confusion between the concepts of pantheism and atheism may be an ancient problem in linguistics. Rome referred to early Christians as atheists, and the explanations of this semantic phenomenon vary, one of which references the confusion between these two concepts.

Source

Religion and spirituality are one and the same.

(most) Organized religion and religion are different. While most organized religion lacks true spiritual depth, any form of spiritual depth can be either equally classed as religion or spirituality. Even philosophy in my view, though there can be a difference between spiritual inclined philosophies and non-spiritual ones.

But from at least one spiritual point of view, spirituality, religion and philosophy are all one and the same and inseparable.

However this doesnt go for all spirituality, religion and philosophy because of the reasons I have mentioned above.

It seems that most religions are biased to a point so I like to try to find those that are not biased which is VERY hard to do these days. I try not to be but after all we’re only human.
The real problem is that everyone wants his/her religion to be the first. Like I've said on here before most believe that Hinduism is the oldest because it has a written history. And because it's roots come from Dravidianism which has been praticed give or take around 6,000 to 3,000 BCE & it predates Egyptian, Sumerian & even Babylonian cultures.

Keep in mind that most of this is theory no on really knows. Sorry I mis-read what it was saying.....

I'm not sure about this but it does say that some 600 years later that Islam started up, I think Islam is older or at least as old as Christianty is. I might be wrong but thats my understanding of it at least.

Hi Norwood -- I will try to sketch an outline of how I think “Christian religion” is defined in the Bible. I know that I will miss many important points, and obviously other people will see things differently than I do …but here is what I believe:

Many religious people venerate images, practice specific rituals and ceremonies, pay tithes, build churches, and carry out many other practices. In my opinion this is not the religion of the Bible.

I don’t believe that religion consists of doctrines. I think that how one lives their life is true religion.

I believe true religion was very neatly summarised in the ten commandments. I mean, those words are “words of action” – a summary of God’s religion for mankind. These words impart knowledge of worship, love and religion. I believe that those who live according to these words practice true religion.

So as not to drag this post on for too long, I will only copy-paste two lots of Scriptures, which in my opinion vividly describe true religion:

“… Everyone must be quick to listen, but slow to speak and slow to become angry. Human anger does not achieve God's righteous purpose. So get rid of every filthy habit and all wicked conduct. Submit to God and accept the word that he plants in your hearts, which is able to save you.

“Do not deceive yourselves by just listening to his word; instead, put it into practice. If you listen to the word, but do not put it into practice you are like people who looking a mirror and see themselves as they are. They take a good look at themselves and then go away and at once forget what they look like.

“But if you look closely into the perfect law that sets people free, and keep on paying attention to it and do not simply listen and then forget it, but put it into practice – you will be blessed by God in what you do. Do any of you think you are religious? If you do not control your tongue, your religion is worthless and you deceive yourself. What God the Father considers to be pure and genuine religion is this: to take care of orphans and widows in their suffering and to keep oneself from being corrupted by the world” (James 1:19-27).


"When the Son of Man comes as King and all the angels with him, he will sit on his royal throne, and the people of all the nations will be gathered before him. Then he will divide them into two groups, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

“He will put the righteous people at his right and the others at his left. Then the King will say to the people on his right, 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father! Come and possess the kingdom which has been prepared for you ever since the creation of the world.

”I was hungry and you fed me, thirsty and you gave me a drink; I was a stranger and you received me in your homes, naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you took care of me, in prison and you visited me.'

“The righteous will then answer him, 'When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we ever see you a stranger and welcome you in our homes, or naked and clothe you? When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?'

“The King will reply, 'I tell you, whenever you did this for one of the least important of these followers of mine, you did it for me!' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels!
By the way, this eternal fire is the second death of body and spirit, NOT eternal life in hell.

"I was hungry but you would not feed me, thirsty but you would not give me a drink; I was a stranger but you would not welcome me in your homes, naked but you would not clothe me; I was sick and in prison but you would not take care of me.'

“Then they will answer him, 'When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we would not help you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you, whenever you refused to help one of these least important ones, you refused to help me.' (Mat 25:31-45).


So you see folks -- in my opinion true religion consists of much more than giving money, food and relief to those in need. True religion involves personal, one-to-one sharing in the joys and grief of other people, and when possible, sharing one’s knowledge of God and God’s salvation through Jesus with them.

What is up with all the spam??..... We need a icon thats pulling out his hair... lol

Sorry Karlis for me any religion that tells you to submit or kneel scares me.

a set of rules based on myth used to satisfy an extremely simple desire of the human psyche.
which only serves to over complicate distract and confuse an extremely simple species.
oh and dont forget to be used as a scape goat for the downfalls of this extremely simple species.

Yes I agree religion and spirituality are the same as far as Christianity goes; God is Spirit. But, any other religion has its base in what? That is the question. Islam is based on what? Hinduism? Taoism? Buddhism? Governmentalism?
Well, with American Governmentalism, it is based on, at least, recent living people.

In my view Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, Buddhism are based on Spirit as well though they may call spirit by a different name.

My definition of Religion with out sounding or being disrespectful...hmm err...

While this is a natural reaction, it would be interesting if you looked into yourself to see why you find submitting yourself to an all powerful, all knowing entity, with your future. both on earth, and in the life after this one, to be scary.

It seems a perfectly sane, rational and logical reaction to me. But then, what you are really saying, perhaps, is that you don't accept the reality of such a god, and do not wish to submit to what you see as human constructs of belief and behaviour, with which you do not really agree. That makes sense. And without a belief in a real and powerful god, a lot of the bible message, especially how it is interepreted by some, can indeed be scary.

Personally, i found Karlis's post one which resonated with me. While it did not precisely mirror my own beliefs and attitudes, it was one of the closest comparisons I have come across, although I have always been a bit shy/reticent about prosylthetising my own beliefs on to others because they are so bound up with my own experiences, and would not mean much to anyone without a similar experience.

What you saw as spam( if you are referring to the biblical quotes) I saw as some of the most basic and compelling truths offered by the original christian message.

C'mon now!

What did they call that big fat guy, Buddha? What do you do in Taoism, huh? How 'bout Hinduism and the snake? What about Islam and Ishmael?

Well, Taoism is really better than all of them, if you know what I mean.

Hello again Norwood -- If I posted spam, would you or someone please explain to me rules of spam as they apply here? That way, I will not make that mistake in the future.

Norwood, you asked for a definition of "Religion".
Specifically, you asked, "Does religion have to do with God, is it all about man ..."?
You wrote: "... express your opinions, provide your proof, argue your position, polish your debating skills, ..."

I expressed my opinion -- that religion has to do with both God and man.
I provided proof from a source I regard as being authoritative -- the Bible.
I followed the accepted rules of debating.

So where did I go wrong, from your point of view, Norwood? Where did I break the "ground rules"?

Norwood, I was not attempting to convert anyone by copying Scriptures in answering your question. In fact, I do not know of any church that would accept "my" definition of religion in my post. But then -- I gave the biblical definition of religion.

You asked us to give proof, argue our position and conduct a debate.

If you care to give your response in this debate, I will be glad to evaluate it. However, writing that, "religion that tells you to submit or kneel scares" you, would not score you points in any debate.

Hi norwood, Karlis has asked me to look into this comment of yours. I can't say that I see any indication of spam. While my personal opinion is that Karlis's view of "religion" is far too narrow to encapsulate all the modern meanings of the word, I don't see any indication of "spam". You asked in your opening post for definitions of religion, including evidence to back up all claims made. As far as I can see that is all that Karlis has done.

Though to be fair, Karlis - quoting large sections of the Bible does not really help. From experience, I will say that most people will simply skip over large quantities of quoted Bible passages. You are better off just choosing short sections of passage. You quoted James 1:19-27, for example - you could have achieved the same effect by simply quoting verse 27. The other 8 verses, while interesting to other Christians, will just get in the way of productive discussion here (a board which includes members of many different faiths and beliefs). But don't worry, what you posted was not spam.

~ Regards, PA

Religion is the basis or the criteria we use to judge what is around us, ourselves and others. For some this is from a bible, quran, etc, and for some this from their elders, or the prime ministers etc. for some it could be money, they religion is money, they base all their judgments on their surroundings and people based on wealth and money. for some it maybe how one set a table at dinner. Its a way of life, through which one has a criterion, for judging everything etc. Aethiesm, secularims, communism, capatalism, (money grabbers) they are all religions.

In the big scheme of things, All of the '-isms' are big bubbles that are filled with air. Take atheism. There is a bunch of athiests filling that atheism bubble with their hot air. Communism just had a slow ceasing of hot air by the resignation of Fidel Castro. Can you group all of the different clans of churchgoers into the bubble of Catholicism? Communism and Catholicism are opposite sides of the bubble. In Communism, there is one dictator for life. In Catholicism, the pope is the dictator for life.
With our putting labels on things, Religion is has become based on somebodys' belief in a creator.
They call Islam a religion. There's Buddhism. Shintoism, Confucianism(I don't know, it's confusing; can you say Confuciusism?), Taoism.
Democrats and Republicans are what? Capitalist? Just so they can eat once a year, these folk hold rallies and get-togethers and raise gobs of money so their refridgerator won't be empty.
One of these leading men promised 'A chicken in every pot.'
It's like there are two competing deities. One has and one has not.

I don't think it's really a matter of "spirituality" vs "religion", but rather "spirituality" vs "organized religion". Whoever wrote this article took a view of "spirituality" as being a personal view of God and "religion" as the organizations through which religion is peddled. While this might be a convenient way of separating spirituality and religion, it does not correlate to reality. Religion and Organised Religion are not the same, though many people in the modern world seem to think it is.

At its most basic level, Religion can be defined by a belief in god (not necessarily the Judeo-Christian God). It is not confined to the organizations. That is probably where the biggest arguments arise between Christians and non-Christians. Is Christianity a religion? Yes, it is. But at the same time, no it isn't. Believing in God makes Christianity a religion. But in another sense, going to church does not make you Christian any more than going to a garage makes you a car. Church might be good, but it does not make you Christian. Keeping religious rules and regulations does not make you Christian. The entire premise of the post that I have quoted here is folly if we think of "religion" as being more encompassing than the organizations through which people claim to speak in God's name.

Then in other ways, religion can also refer to acts pursued with religious fervor. An Olympic athlete might religiously wake up at 3am to swim or run, and while the acts they do might be considered "religious" they are not part of religion.

And then there is the biblical definition of "religion". This definition cuts through all the dren and gets straight to the point - religion is worthless unless it is followed by actions. Karlis and Mr Walker addressed the issue quite succinctly in the preceding posts.

What in the name of apple macs are you talking about?? what is this so called religion...is it even spelt right?

Atheism rejects theism. Secularism means no religion. Secularism is the movement toward separation of church and state. Atheism is irreligion; the absence of religion. So atheism cannot be included in the definition of religion. And neither can secularism.

Ths whole spam thing is a joke & nothing more I don't care if he or she comes in here & tries to convert someone I tease Sandee all the time about it...
**sigh** I miss Sandee at times like these.....


Walker he touched nothing in me I'm glad he did for you my life was never been better sence I've become a Druid but to each their own


PA, I see what your saying that it's more about "organized religion then religion & I agree. But thats what people see on TV & hear on the radio at least here in the states. People like WBC & Jerry Farwell do not help either.

Then, while you may disagree, my view is that "god" has indeed touched something in you, and that you have experienced a different part of the same god. Indeed, to each his own, particularly when it is beneficial to both the individual and to those around him.

I know that some people believe that many paths lead to one but from my experence I do not see it that way.

You're alright, Norwood, and very cool.



Me too. Your comment is what keeps me coming back. I love the camaraderie I see between some believers and skeptics here.